Talk:List of Macedonians (ethnic group)

Proposal for deletion or reduction of the List of Macedonians
More than half of these articles or names should be deleted because under Wikipedia policy, all biographies of living persons created after March 18, 2010, must have at least one source that directly supports material in the article. &#32; As for the list here one should raise the following concern:
 * All biographies of living people created after March 18, 2010, must have references

178.148.119.189 (talk) 22:33, 8 April 2022 (UTC)

Jingbys fringe views
I've created this talk page to discuss with Jingbys fringe view on the situation, he's failed to consult the talk page which is extremely irresponsible of him

Now onto the main topic : Jingby is attempting to add the note for Keraca Visulčeva aswell, despite her accepting the macedonian identity and was a macedonian immigrant to Bulgaria, when Jingby was confronted with this issue he suggested to me that the Bulgarian talk page of her wiki explains his justification, the problem is the talk page was riddled with original research and opinions with clear POVs, and its very clear that most editors meant those comments as opinions not facts, Jingby has attempted to label a bunch of editors opinions as facts, Jingby if you do not give a proper justification here then ill remove the tag, you've failed to form a talk page, so I'm writing this to solve the issue Gurther (talk) 17:43, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * The article about Visulcheva clearly describes her as Bulgarian and Macedonian painter. Where is the problem? Jingiby (talk) 17:52, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * That doesn't make her a Bulgarian or atleast someone with Bulgarian declarations, here is an example: lets call Nintendo an American and Japanese company (it isn't but as an example) does this mean they are American? No of course not, the reason why she's labeled a Macedonian and Bulgarian painter is because she is from Macedonia with a Macedonian identity, BUT she did most of her art exhibits in Bulgaria. Gurther (talk) 17:58, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Maybe you need a reliable source about this? Here you are: Енциклопедия на изобразителните изкуства в България, Том 1, Институт за изкуствознание (Българска академия на науките) Сътрудници:	Александър Обретенов и колектив, 1980, стр. 150; Encyclopedia of Fine Arts in Bulgaria, Volume 1, Institute of Art Studies (Bulgarian Academy of Sciences) Contributors: Alexander Obretenov et al., 1980, p. 150; Jingiby (talk) 18:06, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks Jingby, i checked the source and it had absolutely nothing of your claims, the page Instead (of what is available) just explains her early childhood and in which college she studied in, this source doesn't even attempt to declare her identity, this source is not reliable for confirmation of her Bulgarophile tendencies. Gurther (talk) 18:10, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, in a Bulgarian encyclopedia for Bulgarian artists, what kind of identity should be commented on. Maybe you expect the biography of every Bulgarian artist to write that he is Bulgarian or that he is not Bulgarian? This is odd. Jingiby (talk) 18:15, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Jingiby this is Original Research, you don't know if the book talks about people in Bulgaria or Bulgarians, you're assuming that its talking about Bulgarians which isn't stated anywhere and it cannot be confirmed. I usually try to believe the Bulgarian sources but since this one was produced during the communist era, its highly untrustworthy considering both Macedonian and Bulgarian communist (and several others) purposefully forged or even made up details to justify their claims. Gurther (talk) 18:19, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Well then, look at this dissertation from 2015 from the National Academy of Arts in Sofia. It is for awarding the educational scientific degree "Doctor of Sciences" to Milena Dimitrova Balcheva - Bozhkova with the title: Women Artists in Bulgarian Art in the 1930s. Scientific supervisor is Prof. Dr. Krasimira Koeva. The artist Visulcheva is also mentioned in the dissertation on p. 34. The combination Bulgarian artists, Bulgarian women, etc., is repeated on 110 places, but the term Macedonian is not mentioned even once. You probably don't think any of these mentions apply to Visulcheva, but if they do, it's frivolous? Jingiby (talk) 18:36, 1 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I decided to read it fully, you are doing original research once again, they do not label her or anyone named along with her as "Bulgarians" but instead they wrote "Position "artist's wife" or the problem of personal presence in art in the 1930s After the end of the First World War, there was a tendency for women to orientate themselves to marry a man with the same or similar specialty. In the period between the two world wars wars more and more often in our art we also meet married couples of artists" Gurther (talk) 19:19, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Bulgarian women, Bulgarian artists, Bulgarian art, members of the Union of the Bulgarian artists, in Bulgaria, etc. There is no doubt that she was a member of the Union of Bulgarian Artists and in Bulgaria she is accepted as a Bulgarian artist, not as Macedonian. Jingiby (talk) 03:54, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thats the problem, you don't know if its Bulgarians or in Bulgaria Gurther (talk) 07:17, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Also i decided to check it again to see if it has any foreigners in this book, and there is, they nominated Aneta Hodina, a czech artist but nowhere did they mention czech. Gurther (talk) 07:27, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, the text mentions on p. 13 "two foreign women" and they are explicitly named: Aneta Khodina and Ana Hen-Yosifova.
 * I read the afterwards section where she was named and it said "Some of these creative families are characteristically declared through that period. Modern views of marriage are illustrated with suitable examples of possible professional career of married women artists. All this is of course narrow related to professional art education, which the Bulgarians acquire women and their change in their behavior as individuals." which doesnt declare anyone who was named along with her as Bulgarians, but it seems to call their husbands Bulgarians (which if i remember correctly, i think she was married to a Bulgarian?) this source is somewhat risky and not really accurate and other sources seem to call her Macedonian, one book i found about her mentions this quote : "I was born in Macedonia, from Macedonian grandfathers and great-grandfathers, and I want to die in the Republic of Macedonia" Overall i think both Bulgarian and Macedonian sources are risky for this subject so if you can find a English (or foreign source) i'll keep the note. Gurther (talk) 11:30, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I will not comment this issue further. I have already expressed my thesis, which is based on sources. During different periods of her life this woman had different ethnic identities. That is why in both countries she is considered their own artist. Jingiby (talk) 11:55, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Jingiby all you've shown is sources that you took at face value and outdated communist sources, you've shown nothing supporting your theory while if you go to all language wikipedias (including the Bulgarian one) it clearly states she has supported the idea of an indepent Macedonia, nowhere does is state that it was in the 1990s. I will be removing the note if no further proper evidence is given, thank you. Gurther (talk) 12:20, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not reliable source. Jingiby (talk) 14:32, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * excuse me? What kind of defense is this? Wikipedia articles with sources are specifically made so Wikipedia can be reliable, Wikipedia articles are almost always the first results for every topic on google, an articles sources can also help the reader explore the topic on their own without reading the page, what you've said right here is ridiculous, what are you trying to get across with this? Gurther (talk) 17:21, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Although Wikipedia is a good place to start your research, it is not a credible source that you should use to cite from. Wikipedia allows multiple users to edit, and it is not safe to assume that the facts presented there have been checked before publishing them. Jingiby (talk) 17:40, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I still don't see how this is a defense, all her wikis attach a source, what are you trying to convey? Gurther (talk) 17:59, 2 March 2023 (UTC)
 * A lot of reliable sources were presented supporting the tag the last is academic source published in a scientific magazine from the Sofia University: Tsveta Petrova, Bulgarian women graphic artists in the 1930s and 1940s. Visual arts and music magazine, volume 1 (2020), ISSN 2683-1392, Sofia University "St. Kl. Ohridski" pp. 54-73 (56). The first was article dedicated to the person from a specialized art encyclopedia, published by the Bulgarian Academy of sciences and the second is a dissertation from the National Academy of Arts in Sofia. Jingiby (talk) 10:26, 3 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I've already asked you once and i'll ask you again, a Bulgarian source cannot be reliable for a dispute like this (Since Macedonian sources call her Macedonian and Bulgarian call her Bulgarian) the best choice and the most accurate way to approve if she really had a Bulgarian identity would be neutral English sources, also please talk here before adding the sources i removed, in WP:SOURCE/S it states the following "Use sources that directly support the material presented in an article and are appropriate to the claims made" the article claims she is Macedonian, this source doesn't support the claim and it violates the wiki rule (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:SOURCE&redirect=no). Gurther (talk) 11:30, 3 March 2023 (UTC)