Talk:List of Macedonians (ethnic group)/Archive 1

following terms to be added from a "List of Macedonian":
"Alexandar Makedonski": refers to Alexander the Third, son of Philip of Macedon and Olympias of Epirus, disciple of Aristotle of Stageira; an ANCIENT Macedonian

"Filip Makedonski": refers to Philip of Macedon

Macedonians (sometimes refered to as Macedonian Slavs) make up 64% (about 1.4 million) of the Republic of Macedonia. There are also an estimated 200,000 Macedonians in Northern Greece, 190,000 in Bulgaria, and large Macedonian minorities in Albania and Serbia & Montenegro. There is a relatively small Macedonian Slav diaspora (estimated at 400,000) outside of the Europe mostly in Canada and Australia. This is a partial list of some famous Macedonians.

Ancient Macedonians
This list should also include Alexander and Philip under the headline "Ancient Macedonians"

I agree that there should include a list of Macedonians like Philip and Alexander the great under a new headline "Ancient Macedonians" or "Ancient Macedonians (Pre-Slav influence) -user:Makedon45

^^^^^^FYROM's own universities have ceased teaching that Alexander the great and any other ancient Macedonians have anything to do with FYROM's current population. seeing is this is talking about the contempory ethnic group that request is ludicrous and offensive to anyone with a grasp of history


 * THAT IS NOT TRUE, see this link for yourself - the government sponsered National Macedonian Tourism Portal -user:Macedonia


 * Goce Delchev must be taken off the list as this list is about 'ethnic macedonians' and Delchev was a self-proclaimed Bulgarian revolutionary who from Macedonia

Text of a letter of Delcev to Nikola Maleshevski
"Sofia, 01.05.1899, 

Kolyo (Nikola), 

''I have received all letters which were sent by or through you. May the dissents and cleavages not frighten you. It is really a pity, but what can we possibly do when we ourselves are Bulgarians and all suffer from the same disease! If this disease had not existed in our forefathers who passed it on to us, we wouldn't have fallen under the ugly sceptre of the Turkish sultans...''

Way to go about populating this list
I say we first populate it with any missing significants - and then start making short articles one by one-- is there anyone who will help me in this endeavour? Antidote 23:58, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Cool site :)
I don't know history well, but my father is Macedonian, and so I feel obliged to contribute however I can. I say include Alexander the Great because I believe he is an important Macedonian figure.

Actually, I came across this article by pure chance when I decided to search for my surname in Wikipedia: Todorovski. Perhaps we could go beyond a definition and create a familty tree? This is after all an "encyclopedia" as opposed to a simple "dictionary". [oops difficulty adding my comment] BluePanther_au 31 Dec 2005

Alexander the Great is Greek. This is a list of Slavic Macedonians. Antidote 21:56, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Macedonians (ethnic group)?
I don't know how to express my amazement. There are included like ethnic Macedonians so many Bulgarians of Macedonia for which nobody have some evidence that they had Mavedonian ethnic consciuosness:

...................
 * Dimitar Miladinov
 * Konstantin Miladinov
 * Grigor Prlicev
 * Jordan Hadzi Konstantinov-Dzinot
 * Vojdan Černodrinski
 * Kuzman Sapkarev
 * Rajko Žinzifov
 * Kiril Pejchinovik
 * Todor Alexandrov
 * Goce Delchev
 * Dame Gruev
 * Pitu Guli (Aromanian)
 * Gjorche Petrov
 * Jane Sandanski
 * Hristo Tatarchev
 * Apostol Petkov Terziev

Most of them were Bulgarian (Pitu Guli wasn't ethnic Macedonian too, he was Aromanian) and we have many evidences for this. They was Macedonians, because they was from Macedonia, but from here to the conclusion that they was from Macedonian ethnic group the distance is very big. We can shorten this distance only if we accept the doctrine of Macedonism. Then we can imagine how the fighters for Bulgarian culture and language, how the Bulgarian revolutionaries which leaved us so documents came from other (Macedonian) ethnic group. (Actually this list shows many about the doctrine of Macedonism in general)

This is not serious attitude to Wikipedia and to it readers. This is a candid propaganda.--AleksandarH 18:04, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * According to the official "Bulgarian position", Macedonians are Bulgarians and the Macedonian language is Bulgarian. So I don't know why your wasting your time deleting these revolutionaries, with your attitude you minus well delete the whole list, as well as the Macedonians article and the Macedonian language article, and see how long your changes will last.

You are right, according to Bulgarian position Macedonian language is an other literary variant of Bulgarian language. This position is based on philological arguments. According to Bulgarian position the Macedonian slavs are a significant part of Bulgarian history. This position is based on historical arguments, especially from the epoch of National Revival. This concrete article concerns many historical persons. As I wrote they was Macedonians, because they was from Macedonia. But you state that they was a part from Macedonians like an ethnic group. I think the right thing is to quote concrete sources about this assertion. However if these people considered themselves as Bulgarian, if the representatives of other nationalities considered them as Bulgarian in ethnic sense you have a hard mission to prove the opposite.

Anyhow Bulgarian position do not deny the right of selfdeterminating. It denies the right to change the history in order to argument present propaganda suggestions.--AleksandarH 12:37, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You are right that some of these Macedonian Revolutionaries did label themselves as "Bulgarians" but only in the sense that Macedonia and Macedonians were under the Bulgarian Exarchate, or that they supported it instead of the opposing Ottoman Empire. Macedonians thought of themselves as Orthodox who belong under the jurisdiction of the Bulgarian Exarchate. That is why many VMRO revolutionaries labelled themselves as Bulgarian with a strong Macedonian distinctivness. Also, Bulgaria gained autonomy in 1878 when Macedonia was still under Ottoman controll, meaning Macedonians and many other ethnic groups labeled themselves as "Bulgarian" to escape and live in free and independent Bulgaria.


 * Today however, Bulgaria have taken these facts and turned them around and used them as an excuse to backup its propagandic nationalist ideas which denys the existence of the Macedonian people and language. Macedonia

Macedonia, read the Memoirs of Hristo Tatarchev (д-р Христо Татарчев, Спомени, документи, материали, София 1989, some information even in: http://www.angelfire.com/super2/vmro-istorija/Knigi/spomht02.htm), the documents from Todor Alexandrov (Билярски, Цочо, Дневник и кореспонденция от първата световна война, София 1998 and others), the memoirs of Dame Gruev (http://www.angelfire.com/super2/vmro-istorija/Knigi/spomdg03.htm).... and you'll see that the VMRO (IMRO) revolutionaries used the term Bulgarian, Bulgarian language etc., not like a label for church belonging. The figures from VMRO used this term like a selfdetermination and like determination of all Bulgarians from Macedonia (=Macedonians) - even and for these Bulgarians (Macedonians) recognazing the Patriarch of Constantinopole.

I think that one of the most important refutation of the asertion that the Bulgarian means only "this who belonged to Bulgarian Exarchate" gives the view of the historical persons from previous period - the years until 1871 (establishment of the Exarchate). In this article was included many figures of Bulgarian national revival in Macedonia like - All of them considered them as Bulgarians, their language as Bulgarian. Actualy, their activity was a part of the reasons for establisment of the Bulgarian Exarchate. What we can do if they didn't considered themselves as Macedonian in ethnic sense? --AleksandarH 18:33, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Dimitar Miladinov and Konstantin Miladinov (Bulgarian folk songs, 1861 etc)
 * Grigor Prlicev ( etc)
 * Jordan Hadzi Konstantinov-Dzinot (Bulgarian writing1 1852 etc)
 * Kuzman Sapkarev ("Bulgarian ABC book", 1868 etc)
 * Rajko Žinzifov (New Bulgarian Collection, 1863 etc)

The Right for Self Determination Belongs to All Peoples!
It disgusts me that foreign nationalaties should even be allowed to comment on who is and who is not a Macedonian. It is those same ethnic groups who divided Macedonia for their own ambitious gains. Only the Macedonians know of the atrocities we have suffered at the hands of the so-called "people" who want to declare that we are of Bulgarian, Serb, or Greek descent. There are three things which one cannot hide: the sun, the moon, and the TRUTH. The truth is slowly being brought forth and those who do not wish it to are doing everything possible to keep it hidden. Macedonia has always existed, and will continue to exist. No amount of foreign propaganda and deception will change this. We have the right to call ouselves Macedonians and we choose to do so.

OK! But If the Right for selfdetermination Belongs to all peoples (and people), leave our common historical persons and do not enforce your selfdetermination under them. Define yourself like you want, but try to define the dead men like they did. :)--AleksandarH 19:19, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

And furthermore - yes you have the right to speak for yourself and yourself only whether you are a macedonian or not, but nothing gives you the right to speak on behalf of people that have proved otherwise and that have already spoken for themselves. Laveol 15:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Merge
I have propose to merge List of Bulgarians from Macedonia with List of Macedonians (ethnic group), because those in the first list are already in the second list, and we should avoid duplications. Also, those who may have been Bulg. are denoted by a note in the second list. Aldux 12:13, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I think we should delete List of Bulgarians from Macedonia as a whole because these people are already metioned in the List of Bulgarians and List of Macedonians (ethnic group), and both articles have special notes noting that particular people on the list are either shared or disputed by the other ethnic group. The List of Bulgarians from Macedonia is just a duplicate of these two articles. --Macedonia 22:42, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe I haven't been clear enough... The tag is placed so that in five days time all can judge if it isn't a good idea to merge the two articles in List of Macedonians (ethnic group) and make of List of Bulgarians from Macedonia a simple redirect, or if they prefer keeping them separate. Aldux 21:40, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Ethnic group or citizens of Macedonia?
I noticed entries like Shaban Trstena and Esma Redzhepova. While they are very notable persons, and they make their co-citizens proud with their achievements, they do not fit the definition of "ethnic" Macedonians. Trstena is for example an ethnic Albanian, and Esma is Roma (and a whole lot more, see her page). Inclusion in this list, while flattering, may on the other hand even be offending to them.

I suggest broadening this list`s definition to include more than just ethnic Macedonians, or perhaps spawining off another list, which would consist of people with Macedonian heritage, that are not ethnic Macedonians. Those people would typically be either born in Macedonia or have an ancestor that was born in Macedonia. In a way, like this: Albanian Macedonians, but including Vlachs, Serbs, Roma etc.

Any thoughts? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vikid (talk • contribs) 17:37, 10 February 2007 (UTC).

Vandalism
I am seriously thinking about reporting this article for vandalizing. If this is a list of Macedonian names there is no place for any Greek names link here as they are not even connected. I really don't care of whether you believe ancient Macedonians are Greeks or whatever - this is the list of the MACEDONIAN NAMES and not of Greek ones.

So please stop your vandalism or I will force it to stop.


 * The editor from above says he will "force" vandalism to stop. yet...
 * I wonder for how much time did the vandalism on the top of the page was kept here. I'm talking about the reference to an "occupied" Macedonia
 * It was even spelled wrong and had a broken link. But nobody noticed. I guess some of the people with kinship to those that this list refers to, believe Wikipedia is just a safe heaven for nationalists and trouble-makers.
 * Even if most serious Wikipedia editors from the region say that the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has no territorial claims for the Greek Macedonia. Still, I'm very sorry that references like these are allowed to be kept here, no editors of this page complained! I guess that most editors of this page felt happy that there was place in Wikipedia that they allowed such a nationalistic statement, (promoting war and irredentism) to be kept.Shadowmorphs (talk) 06:19, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Even if most serious Wikipedia editors from the region say that the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has no territorial claims for the Greek Macedonia. Still, I'm very sorry that references like these are allowed to be kept here, no editors of this page complained! I guess that most editors of this page felt happy that there was place in Wikipedia that they allowed such a nationalistic statement, (promoting war and irredentism) to be kept.Shadowmorphs (talk) 06:19, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Disambiguation to Ancient Macedonians
There seems to be an edit conflict at the top of the article between
 * For the people of Ancient Macedonia, see Ancient Macedonians and List of ancient Macedonians.

and
 * For the Greek people of Ancient Macedonia, see Ancient Macedonians and List of ancient Macedonians.

I think we need to use the first, not the second one. The Ancient Macedonians article says there is a dispute whether or not the Ancient Macedonians were actually Greek. So we shouldn't be taking a side in that argument, we should only document that there is an argument. What's more, we should be doing that in that article, not in this one, since that debate is not that relevant to this article. Since we can make a clear link to that article without taking sides in the debate, we should. Finally, phrasing it the second way implies we have a different article for the non-Greek people of Ancient Macedonia. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 16:46, 10 September 2007 (UTC)


 * In my opinion, even if we neglect all facts and chose to say that ancient Macedonians weren't Greek (!), still take a look at the actual list of ancient Macedonians. Just read it, take a few clicks, it's not much time. You will see that many, many people in that list are 100% Greek. That's because it also contains all ancient Macedonians in times after Alexander - Hellenistic Age and beyond. It is an undeniable fact that Macedonian people in Hellenistic Greece were in fact Greeks. I'm not even talking about other parts of the world that were hellenized at the time, like Egypt (e.g. Cleopatra). I'm saying the list contains Greeks from Greece, how else shall I put it. And about Alexander the Great being Greek is weird at least to say that he wasn't since his own mother was Greek from Epirus. How can a man not be Greek when his own mother is? May some will go the extra step and say that people from Epirus are not Greek. What's next? Athenians not being Greek?
 * Whatever the disambiguation link you will choose to use, I just hope that some people here understand that this isn't a place to take on their polemics to the Greeks. Any reader that will choose to actually read the articles on any Ancient Macedonian (especially the later ones) will understand their Greekness and won't bother. Therefore it is not too importantShadowmorphs (talk) 06:44, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

unsourced lists
I'm very concerned about people adding lengthy lists of people, without sources. That fails our policy on biographical content. Please don't add unsourced claims about the nationality or ethnicity of living people. bobrayner (talk) 14:51, 13 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the concern... You may have noticed that most of the individuals you deleted have articles of their own where this information is verified. I had always thought that if the listings had existing articles where the information was already included, it need not also be cited here. See, for example, List of Albanians where a minimal amount of references are given. -- Local hero talk 00:03, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Good point. I have tagged that list too, and will clean it up if it doesn't improve soon. Thanks for pointing it out. bobrayner (talk) 00:09, 14 December 2014 (UTC)


 * So in addition to being referenced on the respective articles, it must also be cited here? Just browsing around, it doesn't look like most of these lists follow that (Bulgarians, Georgians, Italians, etc.). -- Local hero talk 00:26, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, unsourced listcruft is a big problem. WP:V says:
 * It would be best if you self-reverted this. bobrayner (talk) 00:56, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It would be best if you self-reverted this. bobrayner (talk) 00:56, 14 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Alright, I've added the tag for now. I'll try to add citations when I get a chance. -- Local hero talk 05:50, 14 December 2014 (UTC)