Talk:List of Marilyns in the British Isles/Archive 1

Geographic scope
I notice that my sentence about the limited scope of the term has been removed. Where, outside of the British Isles, is this term widely used? I don't know of any such popular usage. -- Spireguy 13:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Oops! OK, now I read your other comment on the Topographic prominence page, and I see what you mean. I will put in a sentence saying explicitly that the term is limited, by definition, to the British Isles. -- Spireguy 13:53, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * While the edit is fine by me, it might upset the sensitive souls who frequent Talk:British Isles. ..dave souza, talk 16:22, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Anybody who has a better way to refer to that island grouping should feel free to change the term. -- Spireguy 22:34, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Merge?
A while ago I put a suggestion on Talk:Peak bagging that most of the short articles on British hill lists should be merged into one, provisionally titled Hill lists in the British Isles. It hasn't had much response so far, and I'm reluctant to do the potentially drastic deed without further discussion. Does anyone here have an opinion? Should Marilyn (hill) join Munro in being an exception to the merge? (Of course the article would still mention Munros and refer the reader to the main article.) -- Blisco 17:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Map
I've just uploaded a map of the Marilyns (Image:Map_of_Marilyns.png) to the Wikipedia Commons and put a link on this page. I think there's room for improvement -- perhaps making the dots larger, or giving larger dots for more prominent peaks. If anyone has any further suggestions, list them here and I'll try to roll a new, improved version of the map tomorrow. -- ras52 16:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Larger dots (or triangles etc) would be helpful, preferably in a colour that contrasts with the background. I don't think it matters if they overlap, the best feature of this map is showing the distribution of Marilyns around the British Isles. -- Blisco 17:54, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The small black dots have now been replaced with larger red triangles so even from the 250px thumbnail image, it's obvious that Scotland has lots of Marilyns and SE England, very few. -- ras52 23:20, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Lists of Marilyns
How come it is not possible to edit that template? Fennessy 13:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It is if you go to the relevent template page, which is at Template:Lists of Marilyns. Hope this helps. Suicidalhamster 14:29, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I see, thankyou. I'm used to templates having the little "e" for edit on them. Fennessy 14:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Delete?
This article is neither notable nor encyclopaedic, it makes a virtue out of obscurity and dramatises the trivial. I vote delete. Excalibur 20:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep. After the Munros, Wainwrights and perhaps Corbetts, the Marilyns are probably the most famous list of British hills or mountains.  Yes, some of the hills on the list are undoubtedly obscure, and some are trivial (though that many are trivial by British standards), though Stac Lee is hardly trivial by anyone's standards.  Also, the article is linked to from over 500 other articles — which it hardly would be if they were  unencyclopaedic.  A Google search for "marilyn +hill +mountain" (which seems to weed out most of the irrelevant hits) yields 1,210,000 pages.  And I don't see what harm the article's doing, so what's wrong with keeping it?  — ras52 22:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep an informative and well referenced article about a notable hill list, a subject which attracts widespread interest. . ... dave souza, talk 00:02, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

The name itself is ludicrous, arising as it does from an obscure pun about a minor actress with much hyped mammary glands, and the subject matter even less exciting than the listing of Bolivian railway stations. I am still not convinced. Excalibur 23:09, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

As for the google argument, I checked the link and within a few pages it is full of such nonsense as: fasola.org - Sacred Harp and Shape Note singing The twelfth session of Rocky Mountain High Sacred Harp Convention was called ... The afternoon session was called together by Hill Grimmett leading song on ... fasola.org/minutes/search/?n=1315 ... its not the number of hits, its their relevance that counts. Excalibur 23:16, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Strong Keep. The Marilyns are becoming increasingly popular among hillwalkers. Unlike the Munros, they come in all shapes and sizes and are spread all over the country. I would have preferred them to be named differently, but the name appears to have stuck. If you do not like the concept of list ticking by relative height then you can ignore it and everything to do with it. Live and let live. Viewfinder 01:04, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Marilyn's are neither use nor ornament - their definition, based as it is on an imperial measure that was obsolete before the term passed into any form of usage, is an anacronism. I cant believe that anyone would actually get a kick out of climbing one of these geomorphological plooks. Excalibur 23:00, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * They are defined as having a relative height of at least 150 metres. I thought metres were metric, not imperial... Viewfinder 23:27, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * For better or worse, the Marilyns are catching on. See the list of 169 hikers who have climbed at least 600 of them. Viewfinder 00:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Strong Keep. The subject is clearly notable, as shown by the article itself and the comments above. Whether or not one person thinks the concept is trivial is immaterial. Note that this is not a list of Marilyns, nor a proposal that every separate Marilyn have a page; it is an article about the concept and the list. -- Spireguy 20:13, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Strong delete "See the list of 169 hikers who have climbed at least 600 of them". The fact that are 169 sad people in the world with nothing else to do except record the unremarkable is not of itself notable. 169 people took the number 23 bus that passes outside my door today, there are 169 train spotters in Neasden....so what (yawn) Excalibur 23:02, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * There are considerably fewer than 169 people who've climbed the 14 8000 m mountains, but no-one's suggesting that article should be deleted. Anyway, unless there's anyone besides Excalibur who wants to delete the article, there really doesn't seem any point in continuing this discussion.  — ras52 09:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

The concept seems to be on the borderline of notability. I was about to write here "weak delete", but a web search found a travel article in the Guardian (external link I just added), hence weak keep instead. &mdash; Alan✉ 16:01, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Keep The Marilyn list is part of this encyclopedias information on the hills of the UK. Why would such information be deleted? Excalibur can't have read the article or he/she would know that the name Marilyn is a twist on the other famous hill list - the Munros - Adrian Pingstone (talk) 16:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

KML file for viewing Marilyns in Google Earth
I think that a link to http://www.viewfinderpanoramas.org/reascent/GB-IRL-KMZ.kmz would be helpful, but I do not want to add it myself as I own the site. Viewfinder (talk) 16:04, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree and have added it. — ras52 (talk) 17:37, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Hundred Metre Prominence list
It has been pointed out to me that the link I added recently to provide a verifiable source for British prominence data is only open to members of the RHB e-group. Therefore, by agreement with the author of the source, I have uploaded it and re-linked it. I realise that this technically breached WP:EL and if there are any objections, some other solution must be found. But there are no further links from this list to anywhere else on my site. Viewfinder (talk) 20:07, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I certainly endorse adding this link. If anyone thinks that Viewfinder adding it himself is a WP:COI then feel free to assume I've deleted it and re-added it myself. —ras52 (talk) 22:24, 13 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I endorse too. Looks like RHB, maybe, ought to get the list out into a public domain. --Eddie | Talk 07:52, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Number of Marilyns
Marilyns Are there really the same number (178) of Hewitts and Marilyns in England?? Linuxlad


 * Yes, there are - spoooky isn't it! Grinner 11:36, Feb 18, 2005 (UTC)

The April 2002 Relative Hills of Britain update reports "The number of Marilyns has therefore risen to 1552 for the first time - 1213 in Scotland, 179 in England, 156 in Wales and 5 on the Isle of Man (Black Mountain is in both England and Wales)". The Database of British hills, dated 4 April 2004, also shows 1552 total, with 179 in England. Is the entry on this page out of date, or has there been a subsequent downgrading of a hill which I have missed? StephenDawson 16:13, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Oh, I'd say that is more recent than the original figure which is are from the original RHB book. SO we should update. Grinner 10:06, Feb 21, 2005 (UTC)


 * And, 1552 total agreed in last year's newsletter - Marhofn May 2004 --Eddie | Talk 10:56, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, I've taken the plunge and updated. StephenDawson 11:54, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Sadly the latest newsletter says "A survey last year by John Barnard and Graham Jackson showed that Sail Chalmadale on Arran is now a Marilyn, with 150.5m drop. Surveys of Raw Head (36) and Mynydd y Cwm (30C) were less conclusive but have led to Raw Head being demoted and Mynydd y Cwm promoted. The current Marilyn total is therefore 1555 (Scotland 1215, IoM 5, Wales 157, England 178)." some things keep changing .....http://www.rhb.org.uk/marhofn/marhofn196/ for link --AndyCPrivate (talk) 17:42, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Meall Chomraidh (2A, 466m NN483566) and Arnside Knott (34D, 159m, SD456774) promoted May 2005. --Eddie | Talk 12:07, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Bogus concept
The concept of the 'Marilyn' is completely bogus. It's something dreamed up by an enthusiast and has no standing in the real world. Why is there such an article if this an an encyclopedia? Pikemaster (talk) 11:26, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Black Mountain
just a point i noted. the article describes the Black Mountain as being on the welsh english border and being counted twice at one tiime. it is the black mountainS that straddle the border (altho mostly on the welsh side) the black mountain singular is miles away to the west the various high points of the black mountains are identified by their own names.

Daiyounger (talk) 00:37, 21 November 2009 (UTC)


 * This article has me believe that "Black Mountain" is within "The Black Mountains" and is it's own name. "The Black Mountain" is then further west. This article also had me initially thinking the same, I'll take a look at the wording Ben robbins (talk) 18:38, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Conflicting data between articles on the Marilyns
In the section on Marilyns in the "List of mountains of the British Isles by relative height it says:


 * There are currently 1,554 Marilyns in Great Britain: 1,214 in Scotland, 179 in England, 156 in Wales and 5 on the Isle of Man. (Black Mountain is on the border between England and Wales, but counted in Wales.) There are a further 453 Marilyns in Ireland. The list was compiled and is maintained by Alan Dawson.

In this Marilyns article it says:


 * There are 2,010 Marilyns identified in Britain and Ireland: 1,216 in Scotland, 555 in Ireland (of which 66 are in Northern Ireland), 177 in England, 157 in Wales, 5 on the Isle of Man.

The reference this article says:


 * Two new Marilyns were discovered and added in 2004-05: Meall Chomraidh and Arnside Knott. The number of Marilyns has therefore risen to 1554 - 1214 in Scotland, 179 in England, 156 in Wales and 5 on the Isle of Man (Black Mountain is on the border but counted in Wales).


 * The exclusion of the 555 in Ireland results in 1,555, not 1,554, and the sum of all the Marilyns in England, Scotland, Wales and Isle of Man is 2110. Not 2010 as is stated.  Should the Main article match the other two, or vice versa and my maths is wrong, or are none correct? Ben robbins (talk) 18:19, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * To add to this the page List_of_Marilyns_in_Scotland says there are 1215 in Scotland, which conflicts all the articles above. The equivalent page for Ireland says there are 455, again conflicting with the number 555 above.  If the Main Marilyn article is correct bar the Ireland figure (and assuming it's 455), and the source it uses and conflicts with is wrong, then the numbers would add up, only leave 2 conflicting articals! Help!Ben robbins (talk) 18:57, 29 September 2010 (UTC)
 * !! This page is different again... It conflicts with all the previously listed pages/sources for England saying there is 176. Apart from that it match's this page, but doesn't include Ireland, and it's 'total' is correct. Ben robbins (talk) 19:54, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Marilyn is a completely made up idea, done as a joke, as far as I know. Why is there an article about it here? Pikemaster (talk) 19:26, 5 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The name "Marilyn" was originally suggested as a joke, by the original author of the list of Marilyns, I think. Personally, I wish that the name had not stuck, but somehow it has, and it has since passed into language. The existence of this article was discussed here some time ago, and I completely agree with the overwhelming majority of contributors. Viewfinder (talk) 09:04, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

British Isles issue
Personally, I do not agree with this edit. The issue has come up quite often on Wikipedia and the prevailing view has tended to stand by the use of British Isles, at least for geographical (as opposed to political) articles. Despite the objections of some Irishmen, the term is historically correct, see in particular the map at British Isles, and makes no implication that the isles are all part of the United Kingdom. Note that "Britain and Ireland" excludes the Isle of Man and other offshore islands. Viewfinder (talk) 15:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I fully agree and per WP:BRD have just reverted that edit. I've been aware of the controversy for some time and had already edited the article to avoid using 'British Isles' in the opening paragraph.  I thought the version we've had for the last 14 months achieved a reasonable balance between avoiding the term 'British Isles' while also recognising that Isle of Man is excluded from 'Great Britain and Ireland'.  Perhaps if the anonymous editor feels strongly, they can now discuss it rather than further reverting?  —ras52 (talk) 22:04, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

I've made a further edit to this, as using 'Britain and Ireland' or 'Ireland and Britain' ignores the Isle of Man, and also uses the ambiguous 'Britain'. (Personally [as someone born in Ireland] I think that suggestions that the use of 'British Isles' be discontinued as inappropriate should only be taken seriously from those who also propose a name change to the Irish Sea, but I'm not going to win that battle.) StephenDawson (talk) 19:37, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Prominence vs. relative height
The term relative height is vague. It could imply a relation to the height of other hills nearby, or of distant mountains, or of Tom Cruise, etc. The term prominence would more clearly indicate a difference in height compared with the surrounding terrain, and in fact is in the title of the Wikipedia article on that subject. Besides, one word is usually better than two when they refer to the same thing.

Coconutporkpie (talk) 00:51, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Article title is confusing
Marilyn (geography) or Marilyn (landform) would make less ambiguous titles than Marilyn (hill) since Hill is also an English surname. Neither does this article refer to geographical hills alone but to mountains as well.

Coconutporkpie (talk) 08:17, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Unreferenced
Basically this whole article is unreferenced. None of the links provided as references are available. 141.6.11.18 (talk) 22:38, 14 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Apart from the Dawson links, which appear to be broken but are covered by the Marilyn News Centre external link, all the links appear to me to be OK. I am therefore reverting the tag.Viewfinder (talk) 05:27, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Lists of Marilyns
Template:Lists of Marilyns has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. --Nessie (talk) 18:21, 21 March 2019 (UTC)