Talk:List of Masonic buildings/Archive 4

Doncram reported at ANI
I have had it... Doncram's repeated removal of legitimate issue tags, his clear case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT when it comes to the problems with this article ... and his severe lack of good faith (especially towards me) has become intolerable. I am calling in the Admins (see: here). Blueboar (talk) 15:36, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Violation of wp:canvass, of wp:NPA, and probably more. I replied there.  Sigh. --doncram (talk) 18:54, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Looking at the issue from a sourced based perspective
Ok, lets talk sources...

The closest I have come to a source for this topic is Will Moore's "Masonic temples: Freemasonry, ritual architecture, and masculine archetypes" (which I re-read yesterday). I say "closest" because the book is not really about the buildings... it is about the concept of the "Masonic Temple" in a symbolic context.

The book does not define what a "Masonic temple" is... but it does note the symbolic origins of the term. When Masons meet, they form a ritualistic space that is a symbolic representation of King Salomon's Temple. it notes that a Masonic temple is not a physical space... but a conceptual space... not dependent on location. The book then goes on to discuss (in some depth) the how this conceptual space influenced the design of Lodge meeting rooms.

The second part of the book discusses the same topic as it relates to the appendant bodies (York and Scottish Rites)... how their symbolic concept of the "temple" was slightly different from "craft" freemasonry, which resulted in the need to develop different rooms with a different configuration. The third part talks about the same development as it relates to the Shrine.

The final chapter is the one that most relates to this article, in that it focuses on buildings as opposed to rooms. It notes how Masons originally met in taverns, and discusses why lodges found this less than ideal for their ritualistic needs. It notes how lodges moved from taverns to rented rooms that could be permanently configured as a lodge room. It notes how in the early and mid-nineteenth century, many businesses (Banks and Opera companies especially) saw the opportunity to make money by renting rooms to Masonic lodges... so they designed lodge rooms into their buildings, which they could rent to the local lodges. (it is important to note that, at this stage, these rooms were built by the commercial establishments, not the lodges. We are not yet at the stage where we have purpose built "Masonic buildings"... merely commercial buildings with Masonic meeting rooms in them)

The chapter goes on to discuss how in the 1870s, laws began to be passed that allowed fraternal and benevolent societies to own property (apparently they were not allowed to do so before). It describes how the Masons saw an opportunity ... now, instead of paying someone else to rent their lodge room... they could own the buildings and rent to commercial entities to help pay for the upkeep of the meeting room. Some lodges purchased a pre-existing commercial building (or bought out their previous landlords)... others were rich enough to build a new building of their own. Where they build their own, they built to attract tenants... which meant they built impressive structures. (We still have essentially commercial buildings with Masonic rooms in them... but now owned by the Masons).

However, not all lodges liked the idea of having commercial space share the same building as the lodge (they saw the fraternity as being above "base commerce"). Some wanted their rooms to be located in more "sacred" space. These lodges purchased buildings with a different purpose in mind... many lodges were now approaching their hundredth anniversary, and they wanted buildings that proclaimed their tie to the community. These lodges purchased buildings for their historic value (typically old schools, churches, and the private homes of community founders).

Thus Moore identifies two types of "Masonic buildings" (although not using those words)... 1) impressive buildings that are designed for mixed use... partly commercial and office space... partly lodge meeting space. and 2) historic buildings that were purchased by the Masons and converted into lodge meeting space.

If there is a commonality to these buildings, it is that they contain rooms configured for lodge meetings... rooms in which a lodge can open their "temple". This is, I think, the closest we can come to a sourced based definition. A Masonic building might be defined as any building that contains a room or rooms configured for Masonic meetings. Moore does not say this explicitly... our saying so does require a degree of interpretation on our part (which WP:NOR forbids)... but that is the closest to a source based definition that we can come. Blueboar (talk) 14:59, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Many thanks for that informative (and interesting) summary, Blueboar. Your comments explicate a few puzzling things that I've come across in my investigation of the topic, which investigation has admittedly been pretty superficial. (It's superficial because I have little interest in either Freenasonry or old buildings. I am participating mostly because I am interested in achieving resolution of contentious discussions about seemingly minor issues.)
 * I think we can all agree that "Masonic building" is not a formally defined term with a standard definition. However, lack of as standard definition does not necessarily prevent Wikipedia from using a term in an article title. The theme (not necessarily a "topic") that I see emerging in this list-article and the various publications we are discussing could be described as "the legacy of Freemasonry in the world's built environment" (in simpler words, "how Freemasonry has contributed to shaping the world of buildings") with "Masonic architecture" being a shorter and somewhat imprecise descriptor of that theme. I believe that most of the items that might be included in the list are more noteworthy as elements of the built environment than as elements of Freemasonry.
 * How does this accord with your views? --Orlady (talk) 01:41, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem with "how Freemasonry has contributed to shaping the world of buildings" is that Freemasonry hasn't "contributed to shaping the world of buildings". Masons have rented buildings... they have purchased buildings... and they have caused buildings to be built... some of these buildings are large and impressive looking... others are small and unimpressive.  Some are historic buildings... most are not.  There is no commonality to these buildings as far as architecture goes.  There is no single style that can be called Masonic architecture... The only thing common to all these buildings is that there will be at least one room in the building that is set up as a lodge room (consisting of a) chairs or benches along two walls, b) other chairs set in specific locations within the room for the officers and c) open space and a table or altar in the center of the room).  That's it.  That is all that is needed for a building to be "Masonic". Blueboar (talk) 03:17, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * That's pretty much the main thrust of the point I've been making for some time. If this article is about a subset of notable buildings then I'm more comfortable.  There is an issue with the standard of evidence around inclusion in that subset, but my main objection to the article at the moment is emphasis.
 * As I've articulated elsewhere on this talk page in the last couple of days there are concerns around demonstrating membership of the subset; casuality, reliability of sources and indeed actual association with Freemasonry but gaining agreement from Doncram that the focus of the article would be a significant first step towards resolution.
 * ALR (talk) 07:41, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I too would be much more comfortable if the article was re-worked so it was about a clearly identifiable sub-set of notable buildings as opposed to the current "notable examples of an ill-defined group of buildings". It would not resolve all issues, but it would resolve many of them.  This might be done with a simple name change... For example: List of NRHP listed buildings with the word "Masonic" in their names would turn the list into a clearly identifiable sub-set of NRHP (ie notable) buildings.  I am not sure that the overall topic would be any more notable (we would have to work on that)... but it would be a step in the right direction.  It would certainly make the inclusion criteria clearer. Blueboar (talk) 14:16, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Notice of discussion at WT:N
Just so no one gets upset ... I have asked a question at WT:N that was inspired in part by the debates over this list (it was also inspired by some comments at the AfD on list inclusion) Note, My question is meant to be general and not specific to this list (the specific question is: how do we resolve conflicts between project SNGs?). You can find my question at WT:N. Please feel free to participate. Blueboar (talk) 17:24, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * As a person who is responding to that request, and having looked briefly over the article, I can say that seeing the NHRP listed next to all of the buildings makes the list very cluttered. I can see the desire of the masonic project not wanting buildings simply because they are old on the list.  I can also see the NHRP wanting them on there, because they are notable.  So why not have two list that reference each other?  List of Masonic buildings dealing with Masonic buildings that are notable by Masonic standards, and List of Masonic buildings on the NRHP dealing with buildins on the NRHP?--- Balloonman  NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:03, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I am so sorry that you got dragged in by yet another call by Blueboar at random notice-boards, asking new editors in to rehash many of same questions resolved several times over in 40+ discussion sections on this Talk page alone, now many archived, and in related articles talk pages and in noticeboard discussions at wp:RSN and elsewhere. . The "NRHP-listed" next to many items here is indeed not really appropriate, but was inserted by me to resolve previous unreasonable efforts to delete places which are known / knowable as being notable places.  The NRHP editors involved here, me included, do not want an NRHP-only article;  it just starts to look like one because of unreasonable efforts to delete all entries, and my efforts to defend the NRHP ones as being more successful for the time being.  Eventually this will even out and include non-NRHP ones internationally and in the U.S. --doncram (talk) 22:36, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Coming here from WT:N and knowing how this list has sparked the issue, let me try to see if I can offer a suggestion.
 * As I understand it:
 * Those editors coming from Freemasonry project believe that the use of a building by the Masons for a temple or whatever immediately qualifies it as a notable building. There may be notable buildings where it just happens to be a Masonic temple or the like.
 * (typo? I think it should read "... from Freemasonry project do not believe that...") Blueboar (talk) 03:35, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Those editors coming from the NRHP project believe that any building on the NRHP is notable, including any building affirmed to have been used by the Masons (and thus putting them in this list).
 * Based on that premise, what it seems is that this list is set up and geared towards detailing with a topic that is primarily in the area of Freemasonry and just happens to overlap a bit with the NRHP project. I would have to agree on the Freemasonry project that this list is relatively unnecessary for their project due to the arbitrary nature of "Masonic buildings".
 * That doesn't mean this can be fixed. Actually, I think, and there's work needed on this idea, that if this was was instead geared towards the NHRP aspect, specifically focusing on buildings that the Masons were involved in (through sourced info, of course). It is probably easily established that the Masons has a significant hand in constructing buildings that would qualify for the NRHP, so if the list was instead gears to reflect that aspect, taking it out of the prospect of the Freemasonry project (though still a part of it) and more about the influence of the Freemasons on architecture in the US or the like. This is only an idea but flipping it around would seem to take a lot of the issues that I believe I am reading away. --M ASEM (t) 22:10, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I am sorry that you too got dragged in here by the unhelpful call to yet more editors to come into this contentious article. This is approximately discussion secition #85 or 90 or so, of discussion sections opened by Blueboar.  The effect is to keep splitting and undermining discussion.


 * Of course there are many Masonic buildings that are not NRHP-listed which are notable. For one example, there is a significant Masonic building in Pasadena, California which was actually determined to be NRHP-eligible, but where the owners chose to object to, and hence effectively veto, its NRHP-listing.  NRHP status can only apply for U.S. sites and for buildings that are more than 50 years old and that have gone through a somewhat burdensome application and review process.  The NRHP editors, me included, do no  want this to be an NRHP list.  It's unclear what the Freemasonry project editors want;  they are not one monolithic force.  The main goal that i see present is a wish by some to create contention and to use tags and forcing actions to force others to do the productive work of creating material that is useful in developing and shaping a reasonable article here.  Opening a new discussion at wp:N, given many past and current discussion sections open on the topic of this list's notability, seems unhelpful.  I resent the explosion of Talk page discussion to an amount vastly in excess of actual editing work in mainspace.  It's a shame especially because sources are readily available for development of articles on many notable Masonic buildings. --doncram (talk) 22:45, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Put your money where your mouth is. You keep claiming "sources exist, sources exist, sources exist," but you won't personally go out and get them.  You expect others to do the work for you for some reason (and with no guidance from you), and then when we can't find them, you find some other reason not to go and get these innumerable sources that exist.  The burden is unequivocally on you to find the sources.  Therefore, if you say these sources exist, and yet will not produce them, are you also saying you're withholding them for some reason?  Frankly, don, I think you have an ego problem, and some need to be "the savior of this article" - therefore you build yourself up by claiming you know all this stuff exists, but when you can't produce proof, you instead denigrate other authors for wasting time by getting outside opinions that funnily enough, don't match yours.  Wikipedia has no place for egos, so produce usable concrete sources for this article, or go elsewhere. MSJapan (talk) 00:26, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you are thinking MSJapan. I have been developing articles about the NRHP-listed places in this list-article, at a certain pace, and adding NRHP nomination documents and sometimes other sources to them.  I've added some of those sources directly to this list-article too.  For example a long time ago now i developed the Virginia ones here somewhat to provide a model, because I knew the NRHP noms were available for those, and then I went on to other states.  In the archives(!) here you can see I participated for a long time in explaining to others how to get those documents, and fixing up the general guide for doing that at wp:NRHPhelp, and so on.  At one point I recall Blueboar exclaiming something like "now we're getting somewhere!" at being shown how to access these documents, but then neither he nor anyone else besides Orlady ever proceeded with any of that, AFAIK.  Please take a look at the Alaska, Delaware, Virginia, New York, Oklahoma articles that have been moving along somewhat.
 * Also there are general sources in the form of Google books or other which have been found and linked to in the AFDs and in Talk page sections above. I don't know why others have not chosen to develop from those.
 * I have repeatedly suggested that editors devote some portion of their time to actually developing material and adding sources. I have the impression that the most prolific commentators here have done almost zero such development. --doncram (talk) 00:58, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Doncram... let me try to explain the issue here through an analogy... lets say we created an article entitled: List of US Presidents who like broccoli. Every item (person) listed would be notable, and we could provide sources to demonstrate that notability.  But... we would still need to establish that the topic of "Presidents who like broccoli" is notable... we have to establish (through sources) that liking broccoli is notable within the context of US President (or that US Presidents are notable within the context of broccoli), and then we would need to supply sources that verified that each President listed actually did like broccoli.
 * In this list... Every item (building) listed is notable, and you provide sources to demonstrate that notability. But... we still need to establish that the topic of "Masonic buildings" is notable ... we need to establish (through sources) that Freemasonry is notable within the context of buildings (or that buildings are notable within the context of Freemasonry)... and then we need to supply sources that verify that each building actually is "Masonic". Blueboar (talk) 02:03, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Telling others to go and do something you started on your own when they are unwilling to do so is not "developing" an article. The only source you had added was established to be a TOC page for the primary NRHP documents, which cannot be accessed digitally brecuase they haven't been digitized. You assumed that because a building came up on a search for "Masonic Temple" it was notable and worthy of addition.


 * When you did check records, you accessed them through a third-party tool here on WP, which we cannot use in the article per the author. My searches indicated that the Masonic Building in CT was in fact a synagogue, and a few others had been repurposed. Therefore, its addition was not necessarily a "Masonic" connection at all. You have ignored this point repeatedly in your additions, because you're not actually doing any work of substance on the article. You are apparently unwilling to get paper copies of the documents (as you have not done so), and I'm certainly not going to do it, because it's not in my area of interest. You are only going and "finding" superficial sources ("Here's the DB with the records; go look at them", "here's a Google link, go look at it"); the fact that you are saying you have all sorts of links and such is a clear indicator that you're not actually looking at the sources, but merely considering the existence of links that seem pertinent as proof of existence of a usable source. Whether they are or not is something you expect others to do. If you had actually looked at the sources, you would have no reason not to cite them, unless in fact they are not pertinent at all, in which case you are misrepresenting your "search" as legitimate, when it is in fact not, and contributes nothing of value to the article. Hence I indicate that you have a problem where you need to be seen as the savior of the article, without ever having done anything to merit the appellation. I would therefore unequivocally state that if indeed you have "repeatedly suggested that editors devote some portion of their time to actually developing material and adding sources," that you might want to take your own advice, because you've done nothing of substance in those areas. MSJapan (talk) 01:32, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * That's just wrong. You haven't looked at the articles in states that i've pointed you to, in order to see the NRHP nomination full documents included in them.  It is true that I also created a good number stub articles using just the NRIS database source, as part of previous effort to address arriving editors' confusion about redlinks being present.  But there's no excuse for your level of confusion. --doncram (talk) 01:59, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Also you're just wrong that you cannot access the documents. Did you read the discussions previously about how to get and use the NRHP documents.  Please see wp:NRHPhelp. You have been misled, I suppose by the ridiculous previous brouhaha about the fact that a standard footnote to one database source, the NRIS one, had a URL included in it that turned bad.  That NRIS database is essentially just a spreadsheet with some summary fields about NRHP-listed places, and you don't need any access to that at all.  The real main material on NRHP places is the NRHP nomination documents and accompanying photosets, which are often prepared by architectural historians (e.g. the Scottish Rite one in Guthrie, see section below) and other professionals.  They range in length from 4 or 5 pages to 80 or 120 page documents.  I have explained, in sim ple words, how to get them for all cases.  And I have included direct links to many of them.  For those, you have to click to see them though! :) --doncram (talk) 02:07, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * (outdent) I reiterate, "then do the work." You are the one claiming Masonic notability for buildings, yet you have shown nothing by way of concrete evidence that would address the inclusion criteria, not one single "I have found thus and so".  Since you are so gung-ho on this, it is up to you to do the work, not for me to go and do the work for you.  I really don't know why you just do not seem to understand that.  Also, your re-characterization of the NRIS item as "one URL gone bad" grossly understates the issue in your favor.  Clearly, there is absolutely no reasoning with you.  So, do what you want, and if your articles are garbage, that's your problem.  I'm not going to waste my time and effort trying to work with someone who doesn't want to be worked with, but rather for. MSJapan (talk) 02:31, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I'm looking at this article and I personally think it is a mess. It's hard on the eyes, inconsistent in formatting, etc. I have a proposal that I think might help satisfy both camps and make this a more attractive article. By using a sortable table, you will be able to put everything onto one large table. Include pictures for each temple. Make it sortable by country, state, year built, and even whether or not it is a National Historic Site. Here is an example of what I was thinking. There might be other fields that you want to include, but I present it as a proposal that might satisfy everybody and make this a nicer list.--- Balloonman  NO! I'm Spartacus! 03:10, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Balloonman, This certainly is a nicer and prettier format... but it does not resolve the fundamental disagreement here... is the TOPIC notable? We still would have the disagreements over what a "Masonic building" IS, what makes one of them notable and another one not notable, and what the criteria for inclusion should be.  Blueboar (talk) 03:44, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Is the building notable for any reason? Check---then it is notable.  Is it/was it identified as a Masonic building?  If yes---then it counts as a Masonic Building.  No one project has dominion over the content of the project.  Using the box as described would allow you to differentiate, to some degree, why the building is there.  Eg is the building notable because it is important to the Masons or is it notable because it has been deemed a National Historic Site/building.  Why does a Aretha Franklin song go through my mind "R*E*S*P*E*C*T"--- Balloonman  NO! I'm Spartacus! 14:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * You miss the point. The debates at this page are not over whether the individual buildings are notable... the debates are over whether a) the topic of this list is notable (ie is the topic of Masonic buildings notable), and b) the items listed qualify for this specific list. It is possible to create a non-notable list filled with notable items.  Every item in List of US Presidents who like broccoli would be notable (since every US President is notable... but the topic would not be (since the fact that a President likes broccoli is both unverifiable and trivial).  The issue we are grappling here is similar... we are debating whether the fact that a building has some sort of ill-defined connection to Freemasonry is unverifiable and trivial. Blueboar (talk) 15:54, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * A possible solution to that has been raised several times. Is the list of notable masonic buildings or notable buildings with a potential association with masonry?  At the moment the implication of the title and topic is that it's the former, when the sourcing, such as it is, evidences the latter.
 * Many of the buildings noted are in the register for historic and architectural reasons and there appear to be few, if any, sources demonstrating notability in the masonic context.
 * ALR (talk) 15:13, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * It's certainly more readable, and the inclusion of a column on rationale does force us down the route of actually having a clearly defined inclusion rationale. If we could resolve the issue over what the article topic is then it's a direction to take.
 * ALR (talk) 14:40, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that a table format generally like that would be good. --doncram (talk) 15:09, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm with Balloonman. It seems clear to me that this is a list of otherwise notable buildings that also have a Masonic connection.  Notability of the individual building can be readily established and sourced and notability of a Masonic connection can be readily established and sourced.  So, then the question seems to be whether a Masonic connection as a subset of notable buildings is notable enough to warrant a list.  Is that right?  I get the whole List of Presidents who Eat Broccoli not being notable, but there's not a large, thriving wikiproject of "people who eat broccoli", while there is one about Freemasonry.  Just the fact of the existence of such a project would, to me, justify the notability of Masonic buildings as a subset of otherwise notable buildings.  I'd have to say that it does seem kind of obvious to me.  If the buildings are notable, and the Masons are notable, then Masonic buildings are notable. Lvklock (talk) 16:05, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Part of the issue is that any masonic significance is turning out to not be particularly easily evidenced. Doncram is making assumptions of association based on the name, it's been demonstrated in a number of cases that is not a reliable indicator.  I've raised an example in discussion above of pubs in England.  There are a great many Masons or Freemasons arms that have no evidence of ever having been a masonic meeting place.
 * That aspect isn't the no brainer one would like to think it is.
 * The other aspect is the question of whether the topic itself is notable, in other words are there multiple, substantive discussions in references independent of the topic. That is something that we're also struggling to evidence.  You may note from discussion above that the main reference that has been used to justify this article doesn't in fact have much content around buildings but instead concentrates on Masonic Architecture as a philosophical and allegorical tool.  so not only is it a minor part of the book, we're reliant on a single source as well.
 * From a notability perspective the challenge does appear to be compliance with the GNG.
 * ALR (talk) 16:15, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Ok, let me see if I can rephrase the question to see if I am getting the gist of the debate. We have a building "Goodwill Catholic Church." Now, we have a list for Catholic Churches, so the assumption would be that Goodwill Catholic Church should be on the list. Unfortunately, Goodwill Catholic Church is not a Roman Catholic Church---it's a Protestant Church or potentially a Sede Vacantist (church that rejects the pope.) As such, it is not a "Roman" Catholic Church despite the name. In a similar vein, I suspect that there are buildings out there that have the word Mason/ic in them that are not Masonic in the traditional sense. In these cases, they would not belong. Another common scenario that I can see, Goodwill Catholic Church was a Catholic Church originally, but due to hardships and a changing demographic, it was sold to a protestant denomination. The Protestant Denomination decided not to change the name because the Church was a historical landmark, thus even though it is now a protestant church it still has the old signage outside reading "Goodwill Catholic Church." Again, eventhough the building was originally a Catholic building, it ceased to be when it was sold. HOWEVER, in scenario 3, Goodwill Catholic Church was a Catholic Church until 1980, when it was taken over by the ABC Historical Soceity and turned into a museum as a historical church. In this case, even though it is no longer being used as a Church, it is being preserved because of it's historiocity. In this case it would be eligible for the list. I guess to me, the key is who owned it last? If it is/was owned by the Masons, it remains such. If it was turned into a museum or somebody assumed responsibility for it because it was a historic place, then it remains what it was. If somebody comes in and turns it into a night club. Then no, even though it might have been a Church for 120 years, it no longer remains such. Is such a list a valid list? Sure why not? It is not a random collection of trivia, it is the perfect topic for a list. If done right, I could see this topic becoming a featured list! Are the subjects worthy of inclusion? Well, if there is enough for an article, then definitely, but even if there isn't, being on a National Historic Registry is enough to warrant inclusion on this list. Even if there isn't enough to write an article on, doesn't mean that they aren't important. I don't know if I would argue that every NRHP deserves an article, but I would argue that they reach the level for inclusion on a list. The above are my two cents worth from a person who until yesterday never visited this page.--- Balloonman  NO! I'm Spartacus! 22:50, 27 August 2010 (UTC) One other point, the notion that the Masonic buildings have to be notable per people from the Freemasonry Project is a POV. There can be notable massonic buildings that are notable in spite of masonic wishes. EG a hall/temple/lodge that became known for some act of violence/crime would still be notable, even though the Masons may wish otherwise. The point is, that we cannot cater to individual POV's, if a building is notable for being what it is, then it is notable for being what it is. If it is a Masonic building, then it is still a Masonic building.--- Balloonman  NO! I'm Spartacus! 00:15, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a very logical analysis... and I more or less agree with it. But we still have a problem... your analysis of what makes a building "Masonic" is essentially Original Research.  It is one Wikipedian's view of what makes a building Masonic.  What we need is verifiability... ie a source that tells us what a Masonic building is. Blueboar (talk) 00:47, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I take serious objection to the "notable in spite of Masonic wishes". These are public buildings with rentable space, not hideouts for a secret cabal, and it is grossly inappropriate to frame the dispute as an agenda to keep the buildings' existence secret (that's POV argument too, BTW).  If they were to be secret, they wouldn't be publicly accessible cathedral-sized buildings with giant emblems on them, entries in the phone book, and entries on web sites.
 * The contention is that the initial additions were made because the building had the word "Masonic" in it (which is demonstrably true), and that just having the name "Masonic" isn't an automatic notability pass (it implies inheriting notability from the organization if we have no other criteria, and we can't do that). Some of the buildings listed have not had a Masonic connection in some time, and in fact are no longer called "Masonic buildings" - the hits were on former names of the building. Therefore, the "name alone" criterion is flawed.  Therefore, we need some other means to classify inclusion, and that is what we do not have. MSJapan (talk) 01:57, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Did you read my post? My post explicitly explains why the name only notion isn't valid.  The hypothetical Goodwill Catholic Church is not a Catholic Church in most of the above scenarios, despite it's name.  Similarly, if Goodwill Catholic Church were part of a strip mall, it would not be a Catholic Building. CINO (Catholic in Name Only) or MINO (Mason in Name Only) is not sufficeint cause to be considered a Masonic Building.  A Temple/hall/lodge/etc that is principly used by the Masons and/or owned, however, is... and if the building is notable, it does not matter if it is notable because it is on a national registry, a mass murder, a significant event, or in the eyes of the Masons.--- Balloonman  NO! I'm Spartacus! 02:47, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * And you are correct as far as establishing that the building is notable enough for Wikipedia to have an article on it is concerned. However, that is not the same as establishing that a building belongs in this list. As you correctly note, there is a difference.  We need to establish that "Masonic buildings" is notable as a topic.  Then we need to clearly define what is and is not a "Masonic building". And finally we need to establish that each building fits that definition.  To do all of this we need sources.  THAT is what is behind the entire debate.  No one is able to come up with sources that do any of these key things. Blueboar (talk) 03:50, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Have you looked at wp:flc? If some of those topics can be Featured Lists, then I can't see why this couldn't be as well.  Honestly, I see a lot of potential in this page becoming a featured list!  It just needs somebody to work on it.  Hell, I'm going to ask one of the people who is heavily involved with Featured lists (dabomb) to take a look at this and see what he thinks.  Right now, this page sux, but I honestly think it could be made into an FL!--- Balloonman  NO! I'm Spartacus! 04:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Warren Masonic Lodge No. 32
I've started up an article, with NRHP nom linked, for Warren Masonic Lodge No. 32 in a small hamlet in New York State. The building is significant for its architecture and for its role in social history of the area. The NRHP nom cites a book titled History of Freemasonry in New York State by Ossian H. Lang (1928, published in New York by Grand Lodge of New York), that would likely be a good additional source for this article and others. Does anyone have access to a library that might have that? Would there be any other sources. Help would be appreciated in developing this article from the NRHP nom, too, which has a lot of good information.

Also, by the way, I wonder if WikiProject Freemasonry editors would like to include this article, and others on specific Masonic buildings, in their project? --doncram (talk) 01:29, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Same problem again - "look what I found, didn't really look at, and now somebody else can go do the rest." You have basic info off the DB page of the documentation, and that's it. I can't even get to the page in question from the generic URL you are using.  If you're not interested in doing the work yourself, stop creating articles on them, because it's not proving anything in your favor other than you're stubbing a lot of junk. MSJapan (talk) 01:38, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * You misunderstand. I included in the article a properly formed reference with link to this NRHP nom document for the place.  For this New York State one, I am sorry the NYS system is a little wonky and the document may display well only using MS Internet Explorer.  Please look at that and also the photos document also linked in the article. --doncram (talk) 01:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I will be happy to see if there is a copy of the book at the Livingston Library (the Masonic library attached to Grand Lodge here in NYC) the next time I am downtown (in a few weeks). Is there something specific you want me to try to find out? Blueboar (talk) 02:12, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry... I am showing my age again... No need to go downtown to see if they have the book... I just checked the library's on-line catalog... and they do have the book. So, again, is there some specific information you want me to look up... or some specific question you want answered? Blueboar (talk) 03:28, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Scottish Rite Temple, in Guthrie, Oklahoma
I wonder if other editors could help develop Scottish Rite Temple (Guthrie, Oklahoma). This one is interesting perhaps because, as its NRHP nom states The Scottish Rite Temple of Guthrie is architecturally and historically significant because it is one of the best examples of large scale, Neo-Classical Revival style in Oklahoma; it is the largest, most elaborately designed and constructed Masonic Temple in the state; and because of its importance historically to the Masonic fraternal organization in Oklahoma.

Also it is self-described as "one of the world's largest Masonic Centers".

Also "it has been recognized as the center of state-level Masonic activities since 1923, when first used even before completion. It is ... the site of the Mason's statewide functions...."

I think this one might be a good example that separating out Scottish Rite ones from the rest of Masonic buildings is difficult. But, mainly i would just like some help developing the article and interpretations of its example vis-a-vis list-article policy could /should be considered later.

Can anyone help describe the design of the building and how it serves Masonic purposes, working from the linked NRHP nom or other sources? --doncram (talk) 01:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * If you are missing basic information, the article should not be in mainspace. MSJapan (talk) 01:53, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Glad to know where you stand. Well, also if very little is yet known/developed about many/most obvious candidates for permanent inclusion in this list-article, we should not be wasting time debating final criteria for inclusion or other aspects of fine-tuning. :)  This article was started by others, by the way;  i just added the NRHP nom, which is written by an architectural historian.  I think my edits to the article have contributed positively.  Anyhow, would anyone have access to any libraries relevant for this one, perhaps a book covering history of Masons in Oklahoma?  If there are Freemasons present who could possibly ask another one in Oklahoma to go get a pic, or otherwise contribute, that would be super, too. --doncram (talk) 02:32, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Doncram, when will it finally dawn on you that you are doing Wikipedia more harm than good (not to mention creating a lot of bad feelings toward you) by your persistent habit of creating content-free stubs, disambiguation pages, and lists of National Register properties about which you have no information other than an NRIS entry? Today at User talk:Polaron I took you to task for your dog in the manger behavior regarding piece-of-cr*p stub articles of yours that you have neither edited nor discussed in nearly a year, but that you insist must be allowed to exist in that cr*ppy state in which you last left them. It is very difficult to take you seriously as a contributor when you behave the way that you do. --Orlady (talk) 04:03, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I thot it should be helpful to turn people's attention to the actual subject of the list-article, the masonic buildings, for a change. Orlady, I do appreciate that you have participated constructively here and for the most part provided a voice of reason.  Your insulting the articles and your insulting me does not seem consistent with helping, but it seems to be part of the price, for me, of your participation.  Thanks anyhow.


 * About the Scottish Rite Temple in Guthrie, don't you agree that it seems pretty clearly an important Masonic building, while up to now its importance has not much been recognized? --doncram (talk) 15:17, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * If we accept the assumption that NRHP listing meets the demands of the GNG then it seems fair to list it, although I would be very wary of using the web site of the building management organisation to assert much.
 * In terms of sourcing masonic significance or detail you might find substantive mention in whatever masonic or appendant body journals published in the state. Equally any masonic history societies that may have articles on it.  As I recall Oklahoma is SR Southern Jurisdiction so you may find something in the Scottish Rite Journal published in Washington.  I've just had a quick search of the web page and can't see anything but perhaps if you get in direct touch they could help.
 * I hope that provides some direction about where to look to flesh out the article from its current condition.
 * ALR (talk) 15:26, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

more to add
I note that there are a few Masonic buildings that are NRHP-listed so wikipedia-notable that are not currently included here. There are some among this list taken from NRHP-listed and having "shrine" in name (not all confirmed though): I expect a couple of the above need to be excluded, as they will turn out to be other types of shrines, but many/most are Masonic/Shriner-related. I'm using NRIS as my source.
 * Abou Ben Adhem Shrine Mosque, Springfield, Missouri, Arabesque, built in 1923
 * Algeria Shrine Temple, Helena, Montana
 * El Zaribah Shrine Auditorium, Phoenix, Arizona
 * Grand Island Shrine, Colusa, California, a religious structure
 * India Temple Shrine Building, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, Classical Revival architecture from 1923, a clubhouse also known as "Law Journal Record Building"
 * Mosque of the El Jebel Shrine, Denver, Colorado
 * Shrine Building (Memphis, Tennessee)
 * Shrine of the Sun, Colorado Springs, Colorado, seems not Shriner-associated
 * Shriner-Ketcham House, Hastings, Michigan, seems not Shriner-associated
 * Shriners Hospital for Crippled Children (Portland, Oregon),, aka "Old Shriners Children's Hospital"
 * Shrine Building (Miami, Florida) -- may not actually be listed on the National Register - listing code is DO. Located at 1401--1417 Biscayne Blvd., Miami, FL.  Art Deco building from 1930 designed by Robert Law Weed, also known as "Boulevard Shops" building.

I've noted comments by Pershgo and Orlady to the effect that the list-article definintion would seem to include all notable Masonic buildings, including these, and not limiting listing to only surviving buildings or only buildings currently used for Masonic lodge meetings. I don't happen to know whether there are current meetings at these buildings, by the way. Let's find out more about these ones and add the relevant ones to this list-article. --doncram (talk) 15:35, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Addendum: There are several notable Shrine mosques listed at Moorish Revival architecture, also to be added. The moorish revival Shrine mosques are important examples of the moorish revival architectural style, and hence are appropriately listed there. I think it is also appropriate to list them here along with any Shriner buildings that are not Moorish Revival in style. --doncram (talk) 21:43, 13 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Just a reminder... the Shrine is not part of Freemasonry. I have raised this point previously... Although some shine buildings do contain lodge rooms that local lodges can rent, please do not assume true of all shrine buildings.  Please double check.  I would object to calling a shrine building that does not have at least one lodge room a "Masonic building". Blueboar (talk) 21:43, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * For example... I can find no indication that the Tripoli Shrine Temple, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin contains any lodge rooms, nor can I find any indication that Masons ever met there (certainly none of the lodges currently meeting in Milwaukee do so). I do not think this building can be called a "Masonic building".
 * On the other hand... a former shrine building, the New York City Center, did contain lodge rooms, and lodges did meet there... so there is at least some justification for including it in the list.
 * Does anyone know if there are lodge rooms in the Shrine Auditorium in LA (probably the most noteable of Shrine buildings)? Blueboar (talk) 22:20, 15 August 2010 (UTC)
 * OK... after some further research:
 * Abou Ben Adhem Shrine Mosque, Springfield, Missouri - website for the building contains no mention of lodges meeting in the building. I can find no other source that says any lodges currently do so, nor any source that they ever did so.
 * Algeria Shrine Temple, Helena, Montana - no indication that a lodge ever met there on the website (there is apparently a separate Masonic building in Helena).
 * El Zaribah Shrine Auditorium, Phoenix, Arizona - According to the lodge locator at the GLAZ website Thunderbird Lodge No. 15 meets in the building (or at least at the same address). So this one would qualify under my interpretation of the criteria.
 * India Temple Shrine Building, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma - No indication that lodges ever met there.
 * Mosque of the El Jebel Shrine, Denver, Colorado - Same here... no indication that lodges ever met there.
 * Shrine Building (Memphis, Tennessee) - This is no longer even connected to the Shriner... it has been converted to an apartment building. I can find no indication that a lodge ever met in the building.
 * Shriners Hospital for Crippled Children (Portland, Oregon) - Its a hospital for God's sake, not a Masonic building.
 * Shrine Building (Miami, Florida) - This apparently has absolutely no connection to the Ancient Arabic Order of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine (ie the Shrine) or Freemasonry. It is definitely not a "Masonic building".   Blueboar (talk) 02:36, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for trying to get some info to shed light on the issue. No offense, but i don't trust your research where you can't find evidence as establishing anything.  On the last one the NRIS database records that the building had "Historic subfunction" of "meeting hall" among other uses, and it is named "Shrine Building".  Who do you think met there?  About hospitals and Shriners both, I haven't done an exact count but I believe I have seen more commentators in favor of including these in the many discussion sections (now archived) about this, than i have seen !voting the other way. --doncram (talk) 11:00, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Doncram is right -- there's not much basis for concluding much of anything about some of these buildings. I picked one of these at random to see what I could find regarding its history: India Temple Shrine Building. The Wikipedia article was a minimal-content-stub-that-never-should-have-been-created that gives "no indication" of much of anything, but the information I found online (particularly the NHRP nom form) makes it clear that this was built by Masonic lodges and used as a Masonic building. Oddly enough, what I haven't found is any indication that the Shriners ever used it. --Orlady (talk) 14:15, 18 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah... this illustrates why it is so important to look at the actual nomination forms, and not assume things. Yes, the India Temple Shrine Building was originally constructed by the Masons.  I was confused because the website of the local shrine chapter does not mention any of this.  Now I know the reason why... the Shrine does not meet there any more.  Nor do any Masonic Lodges.  If you look at the nomination documents, you will discover that the building was sold in 1945, and has been extensively remodeled several times since then.  I note that the nomination form explicitly says that the Masonic ornamentation was removed in the first renovation. In other words... it is NO LONGER a Masonic building.  I have a real problem with listing a building that has had no connection to Freemasonry (not even decoration) for over 60 years. Blueboar (talk) 19:27, 18 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The issue of including Shrine buildings was briefly discussed before (see: Talk:List of Masonic buildings/Archive 1... Perishgo indicated week support for inclusion, ALR and I strongly objected. There was no !Vote.  Blueboar (talk) 14:34, 16 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I strongly object to an assumption that Shrine buildings per se should be included. The Shrine is not Masonry.  Where a Shrine building can be positively demonstrated to act as a meeting place then it can be up for discussion.  If it can't be positively demonstrated to be in use of Masonic purposes then it should be included.
 * ALR (talk) 12:49, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Hey, another set of buildings to add are the ones with "Scottish Rite" in their name, including the following NRHP-listed ones: I guess i should add any of these ones above that are not already included, as they are all wikipedia-notable. --doncram (talk) 20:27, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Scottish Rites Temple, Mobile, Alabama
 * Scottish Rite Hospital for Crippled Children, Decatur, Georgia
 * Scottish Rite Consistory Building, Des Moines, Iowa
 * Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite Temple, Louisville, Kentucky
 * Scottish Rite Cathedral (Indianapolis, Indiana)
 * Scottish Rite Temple (Kansas City, Kansas)
 * Scottish Rite Temple (Wichita, Kansas)
 * Scottish Rite Cathedral (Shreveport, Louisiana)
 * Scottish Rite Cathedral (Joplin, Missouri)
 * Scottish Rite Temple (Lincoln, Nebraska)
 * Scottish Rite Cathedral (Santa Fe, New Mexico)
 * Scottish Rite Temple (Guthrie, Oklahoma)
 * McAlester Scottish Rite Temple, McAlester, Oklahoma
 * Scottish Rite Cathedral (New Castle, Pennsylvania)
 * Masonic Temple and Scottish Rite Cathedral, Scranton, Pennsylvania
 * Scottish Rite Dormitory, Austin, Texas
 * Dallas Scottish Rite Temple, Dallas, Texas
 * Scottish Rite Cathedral (Galveston, Texas)
 * Scottish Rite Cathedral (San Antonio, Texas)


 * Noting that you've already tried to start a list article for AASR buildings I would suggest that is a tacit recognition that these probably don't belong in here. AASR is an appendant body to Freemasonry, and as such inclusion here should only be if there is verifiable evidence of Masonic significance, at the very least evidence of use as a Masonic meeting place.
 * ALR (talk) 13:23, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I think i am responding now the 2nd time to an accusation made twice, but that is not correct. I have not tried to start a list-article for Scottish Rite-associated buildings.  I think you refer to my having edited the Scottish Rite Cathedral disambiguation page, which is quite different.  I don't think it would be easy to distinguish which buildings are Scottish Rite but which do not any other flavor of Masonic for a list of Scottish Rite only ones.  And since there are only one or a few of these per state, it would seem best to me to list them in with the other masonic buildings in each state. --doncram (talk) 01:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * ALR, perhaps you are not seeing the relationship between several dab pages Masonic Temple (disambiguation), Masonic Lodge (disambiguation), Masonic Building (disambiguation) and perhaps more dab pages which exist. Their contents probably all appear in this list-article.  So the fact that some Scottish Rite ones are on a dab page likewise does not preclude their being listed here. --doncram (talk) 01:59, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Hey, i found a couple York Rite ones listed on the NRHP too: and perhaps York Meetinghouse, in York, Pennsylvania, but maybe that one is a church instead. I'll start up York Lodge disambiguation page and plan to add these items to this Masonic buildings list-article. --doncram (talk) 01:59, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * York Lodge (Cazenovia, New York)
 * York Lodge No. 563, Columbus, Ohio


 * I added the above ones, except the few that proved to be religious buildings and except for the charitable hospital type ones, to the list article. I won't say this was "seeing no objections", but all objections here were answered, and it is my sense of the general discussions here and everywhere that these are compatible additions to the list.  Eventually, if there is a lot more growth, it is possible that the Scottish Rite ones would be split out, but as I have noted above and as has been noted in discussion below for the Guthrie, Oklahoma one, there is no easy distinction between general Masonic vs. specific subtypes of Masonic, for many buildings. --doncram (talk) 01:48, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria
OK, I think it is clear that we need to agree on inclusion criteria, and to do that we need a definition of what a "Masonic building" actually is. Now, we could continue to debate our own personal views of what a "Masonic building" is... but frankly that is an exercise in Original Research (no matter which view we discuss). For our definition to not be OR we need to base our definition on a source that defines what a "Masonic building" is. That leads to a very simple questions... Does such a source exist? Blueboar (talk) 12:50, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * This book seems to use "Masonic Building" to be one that has the Masonic Compass on its cornerstone. That type of designation seems to have been around for quite a while:  (originally published 1874). Using that definition, this would probably be an indiscriminate list.  takes a different view, in Masonic Buildings being those called "temples", but that may be a regional designation. This sources  indicates that Scottish Rite buildings would be included. The term "Masonic building" is used a lot, but I am not seeing any unified, identified, consistant scholarly definition. The Freemasons appear to have a definition  "Masonic buildings should be dedicated by the Grand Lodge" - using that definition, I suppose we would need to have some type of proof that it was "dedicated" before including it in the list?  Active   Banana   (  bananaphone  14:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem with the last criteria is that it would also include the Statue of Liberty and a number of other major public structures. But having a square and compass as the cornerstone might be okay. The problem is how many records are we going to be able to find on that piece of data specifically? PeRshGo (talk) 14:52, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, Grand Lodges do dedicate masonic buildings... which involves ceremonially laying a cornerstone... but they also dedicate other structures (such as the US Capital Building and the Statue of Liberty) using the same ceremony. As for the Square and compasses on the cornerstone, the Complete Idiot's Guide to Freemasonry (the source you cite) actually says that a S&C on the cornerstone isn't a way to tell that a building is Masonic:
 * "'In addition to their usually well-identified buildings, Masonic symbols are also common on other buildings. Since the Freemasons historically have performed the civic task of ceremonially laying conrnerstones (most famously the U.S. Capital, the Washington Monument and the White House), it's easy to find churches, courthouses, schools, and other buildings with the Masonic square and compass on their cornerstone."
 * I have looked into this for two months now... and I have yet to find a source that tells us what a Masonic building is. I am beginning to question whether one exists.  And if one does not exist, I don't think we can come up with a workable, verifiable inclusion criteria. Any definition we adopt will be based on Original Research. Blueboar (talk) 15:34, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * From a UK perspective there are a fair number of sources that talk about temples, inasmuch as they focus on the decoration and furniture of the room within which ritual meetings take place. So they'll talk about the square pavement, the tessellated border, the tracing boards, columns, ashlars, jewels etc.
 * I know there are a couple that talk about the buildings of Grand Lodge in London, but that's very specific. It may have something in more general terms.  There are also a couple that talk about the livery companies and their halls, that may have something in there given the likely origins of Freemasonry in the trade guilds.
 * That's about it as far as I can find, so not all that useful.
 * ALR (talk) 16:25, 24 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd be uncomfortable about describing any of those extracts as substantive enough discussion to meet the GNG. They're very much mentions in passing with little about what the term means.
 * With respect to the Scottish Rite issue, if we restrict the article to US usage only, and remove entries on the Rest of the World, then I'd be comfortable that the SR Southern Jurisdictions own, un-reciprocated, claim to represent Freemasonry as a whole could be up for discussion.
 * And having read the synopsis of the Jeffer book I'm not convinced that it constitutes a particularly credible source on the subject, it looks to be fairly standard conspiracy theorist fare.
 * ALR (talk) 15:59, 24 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Statements like yours about whether or not an entity can "claim to represent Freemasonry as a whole" are the reason why I referred to the Roman Catholic Church earlier. Through history, certain Christian denominations (including the Roman Catholic Church) have represented themselves as the only true Christian church and have labeled other "brands" of Christianity as invalid -- or as heresies. I have formed the distinct impression that the same sort of situation exists within Freemasonry. Just as Wikipedia should not rely on the Pope as its authority on "who is a Christian", the fact that some bodies within Freemasonry do not recognize certain other bodies as "Masons" does not mean that Wikipedia should refuse to use the terms "Masonic" and "Freemason" when describing certain groups that consider themselves to be "Masonic" but aren't recognized by certain other "Masonic' bodies. --Orlady (talk) 17:48, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a side issue that we can deal with later... until we can find a source for a definition of what a "masonic building" is, we can not determine if SR buildings fit that definition. We are simply falling back upon our own OR definitions. Blueboar (talk) 18:00, 24 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I refer you back to my comments above regarding your use of the RCC example.
 * ALR (talk) 18:02, 24 August 2010 (UTC)


 * There is possibly an alternative way to to approach this, although I am apprehensive about it. There appears to be a dearth of sources that talk about Masonic Buildings as a topic, largely because it's really not important in a Masonic sense.  On the other hand there do appear to be a fair number of sources that talk about specific buildings, although that discussion does appear to be centred on issues that are tangential, or in many cases unrelated to the Masonic use of the building.
 * I guess it's possible that we could use those various individual mentions and build and argument for general notability around them. I have a feeling that this is the approach that Doncram has been arguing for, although as never actually articulated clearly, as a mechanism for supporting this article.  It would be useful if he can state whether this is a fair summation, if we establish individual notability for a sufficiently large numbers of buildings we can infer a notability for the topic.
 * If that is the case then once we have a critical mass of entries then we could identify a number of common themes from the entries and use that to state what the inclusion criteria are.
 * With that in mind it may be useful to identify what a critical mass might be, and perhaps agree that we aim to identify inclusion criteria from an analysis of the entries at that point?
 * ALR (talk) 17:36, 24 August 2010 (UTC)


 * No... that is OR. To say that there are common themes, we need a source that identifies what those common themes are.  We can not use our own observation or thoughts on the matter. Blueboar (talk) 18:00, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Leaving aside whether it is OR or not, I'm trying to provide a vehicle for Domcram to articulate what his views on how to establish notability are.
 * ALR (talk) 18:04, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:N tells us how to establish notability... through reference to reliable sources. Where are the sources? Blueboar (talk) 18:29, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm changing my mind -- and coming around to the view that there is a notable topic here. The notable topic is probably most often called "Masonic architecture," which is a loosely defined term applied to the symbolism embedded in various buildings built by Freemasons, as well as to notions regarding the types of buildings Masons are thought to favor -- or have favored in the past. The roots and history of Freemasonry are closely connected with people who actually built buildings, and it's evident that Freemasons have built a number of important buildings worldwide (some for Masonic use and some for other purposes) that constitute an important contribution to the communities where they were built, as well as to the world's architectural heritage. A lot of the documentation of Masonic architecture has an anti-Masonic cast, but there is also some coverage that is neutral or that expresses admiration for Masons' contributions. For example, the American Architectural Foundation had an exhibit on the influence of Freemasonry on architecture:, this Texas guide has a list of Masonic buildings and calls them "anchors of small town architecture," and the proprietors of the Detroit Masonic Temple speak admiringly of the Freemasons who built it. I am particularly intrigued by articles about a 19th century building at Knox College in Illinois that was decorated with Masonic symbols in spite of the school's hostility toward Freemasonry.. The 2006 book Masonic Temples: Freemasonry, Ritual Architecture, and Masculine Archetypes (excerpts available online in the U.S. at this link) discusses a "golden age" of Masonic architecture in the U.S. (from 1870 to 1930), the architectural styles of Masonic meeting rooms, temples, etc., built during this period, and the relationship of this architecture to the ritual and "symbolic vocabulary" of Freemasonry. It is this book (which was published by a university press), in particular, that makes me think that the topic of the architectural legacy of Freemasonry is a notable topic (and, indeed, a proud topic).

While I say that the notable topic is "Masonic architecture", I think that this topic might not be clearly enough defined to be the subject of a stand-alone article. However, a list of notable Masonic buildings (in effect, the list of examples for a future article on Masonic architecture) can be created without having the hypothetical parent article. Scope of the list should (IMO) definitely include all notable buildings that were built by Masonic bodies (to include all such bodies) for meetings and ritual use, whether or not the buildings also had public uses, and whether or not the buildings still exist or are still owned/used by Freemasons. Beyond that, I'm less firm on the inclusion criteria. I'm not sure whether it should include other buildings that have been reliably identified as having been built by Freemasons, incorporating Masonic elements, but not built for Masonic sues (examples are the American White House and that building at Knox College). I don't think it makes sense to list Shriners' Hospitals and other buildings built by Shriners or Freemasons for purely charitable reasons. Buildings built for some other purpose, but later converted to Masonic use, are another grey area. IMO, they should be listed if they are reliably documented to have a strong Masonic connection, such as significant Masonic elements in their current design or an important role in the history of Freemasonry (either globally or locally) -- thus, I probably would include Freemasons Tavern, Hove. --Orlady (talk) 04:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a step in the right direction... as it has the potential to be sourced based. Let's explore this further. Blueboar (talk) 12:03, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * While still lacking in actual sources to support the language, but I think it may be possible to find them, I have added a draft of a lead for the article. Active Banana   ( bananaphone  15:11, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I think there is some potential mileage in this approach, as long as we can find a clear definition of Masonic Architecture, there is a risk that without that we could end up with quite a confused set of criteria. We may need to find a form of words that makes clear that we're talking about buildings, since many of the references that include the words masonic architecture will be talking in either a speculative or philosophical context, or potentially talking about the furnishings used within a temple.  There is a likely crossover in the sources, as some architectural devices used in the ritual and in the temple are replicated in the building.  Quite frequently the  Left and Right hand pillars are represented at the door of the building with physical columns.
 * I am very comfortable with the idea that we evidence masonic notability, in accordance with the GNG, although clearly we need to explore in more depth what that evidence will look like.
 * ALR (talk) 21:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd note that Orlady's statement of a "golden age of Masonic architecture" coincides with the foundation of the Shriners (1872) and the expansion of Scottish Rite theater (Theater of the Fraternity is set dead on these dates), and I'd imagine that as "anchors of small-town architecture", they may have served as public meeting halls, and therefore that function was quite distinct from the Masonic purpose of the building. I'm not saying it's a red herring, but just as a caveat, to move in this direction will likely require backpedaling on our previous exclusion criteria. MSJapan (talk) 04:12, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Orlady didn't coin the term "golden age of Masonic architecture". That's from the 2006 book "Masonic temples: Freemasonry, ritual architecture, and masculine archetypes" written by William D. Moore, who was the director of the Chancellor Robert R Livingston Masonic Library in New York City. The book is published by the University of Tennessee Press. The book focuses on Masonic architecture in the U.S. The introduction identifies 1870 as the date of the dedication of a Masonic hall in New York City, and it says that 1870 roughly coincided with Freemasonry's return to prominence following several decades of anti-Masonic activity. By 1930, it says that Masonic membership had greatly increased, and that year marked the dedication of a Masonic temple in Rochester, New York -- the last significant Masonic structure built in the state of New York before the Great Depression "transformed American society". The blurb for the book indicates that the book uses an inclusive definition of "Masonic"; it says "Four distinct sets of Masonic ritual spaces--the Masonic lodge room, the armory and drill room of the Knights Templar, the Scottish Rite Cathedral, and the Shriners' mosque - form the central focus of this volume." --Orlady (talk) 05:00, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * MSJ - It's possible that the book has some form of definition that we can use as a working assumption to see whether this idea has any merit. But someone needs to take a look at a hard copy, not just cherry pick from extracts in google.  I'm in London next week so may get a chance to drop into the GL library to get a look.  the extract immediately above does suggest to me that the focus is on the architecture of ritual, rather than the architecture of the outer, mundane, shell.
 * The very broad inclusion concerns me, and suggests that it's likely to be a US focused volume, which brings us back to the issue of whether the article should be geographically constrained. I think we have a mild issue around understanding, it's clear that some don't appreciate that Freemasonry denotes some 500 different bodies that practice Freemasonry as well as a couple of thousand other bodies that practice work derived from Freemasonry and that's even before we start onto the corpus of material from the conspiracy headbangers.  Note that I'm not distinguishing between Freemasonry and Atheist practices when I say Fremasonry to assuage any concerns by Orlady that I'm intentionally excluding the heretics ;)  With that in mind it's going to be very difficult to find a working definition that encompasses Freemasonry, never mind all the hangers on that some would wish to include in this Directory.
 * I share your concern that small town architecture is more likely related to the hall as a social hub aspect, rather than temple as ritual space aspect, and that highlights an issue of treatment. Do we consider a town hall used for masonic purposes in the same way as we would a masonic centre used as a town hall when in practice they'll be pretty indistinguishable.
 * ALR (talk) 08:49, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Test formulations of potential lead / inclusion criteria
1) This is a list of Masonic buildings. The roots and history of Freemasonry are closely connected with people who actually built buildings,  and buildings around the world have been constructed by Freemasons. (add a source) The main list includes notable buildings that were built by Masonic bodies  for meetings and ritual use, and includes the dates for when Mason activities took place within the building (when available) and in some instances descriptions of the use of the buildings when Mason activities no longer took place within the facility. List of buildings And as a sublist

Masonic influenced architecture
Numerous buildings have been built incorporating Masonic elements which were not intended for use for Masonic meetings. (source) List of these buildings with a source describing masonic influence
 * Um... could you give an example of a building incorporating "Masonic elements" that was not intended as a Masonic meeting place? Blueboar (talk) 20:33, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * One particularly interesting example is the "Old Main" building at Knox College, whose architect (Charles Ulricson) has been found to have quietly incorporated many Masonic symbols and elements into the building, apparently in defiance of the college's leadership, which at the time was overtly hostile to Freemasonry. Another example that I cited above (based on one of the sources I found) is the American White House. --Orlady (talk) 21:04, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Have you got any idea what flavour of Freemasonry those are supposed to have come from? In view of your statements regarding the GNG above are we considering one book as multiple?  It's an interesting hypothesis, but it would probably need a bit more evidence to substantiate the assertion.
 * As I recall the White House foundation stone was laid with masonic ritual, something that was quite common for public buildings at the time. Is there more about the whole architecture being influenced or inspired by Masonry?  I do remember seeing one foundation stone ritual, a memorial with the Lodge being one of a number of local organisations that was involved in the whole project.
 * ALR (talk) 21:16, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Why would the "flavour of Freemasonry" make a difference in determining whether the topic belongs in Wikipedia or not? That might be an interesting detail, but it's not necessary that an article to contain all potentially interesting details in order to be included here.
 * As for the White House, I invite you to read the source (which I cited in one of my earlier comments) that discussed the role of Freemasonry in that building. I have no interest in becoming an expert on the topic of that building nor on Masonic architecture in general; I merely named it as a possible example. --Orlady (talk) 21:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm really just curious. I'm a pretty experienced Freemason, I'm also a member of a range of other orders and I would say that many of the assertions that those articles attribute to the book are, to say the least, unfamiliar.  I'm interested in where it's supposed to have come from.  It may be something that I can explore further, it may be some obscure appendant body that I've never heard of.  Further light is always valuable.
 * I had read that page that you linked although personally speaking I didn't take the same conclusion from it. The to mentions are pretty incidental, are you suggesting that individual masons making their marks on the stones used to construct the White House may have been organised and co-ordinated?
 * ALR (talk) 21:55, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, I hadnt even looked at the source, I was just trying some sample wording to see if there might be something potentially approaching or that would be a starting point to reach a consensus, whether on part one or part two.Active Banana   ( bananaphone  22:02, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * That was aimed at Orlady and the assertions about the White House :)
 * I'd like to see Doncram engage with this discussion though, his buy in to the implications is essential.
 * ALR (talk) 22:11, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Having looked at the article on the building at Knox College... what the author says is Masonic symbolism... simply isn't. Lots of people claim to to see "hidden masonic symbols" that don't exist (square and compasses in the street plan of Washington anyone?)
 * We have to be very careful when it comes to symbolism ... a) not everything that some uninformed author says is a Masonic symbol actually is Masonic symbol (for example lots of non-masons think the Pyramid is Masonic... it is a popular claim made by conspiracy fans... but the pyramid isn't part of any masonic degree... it simply isn't masonic)... b) not all branches of Freemasonry use the same symbolism. (Continental Freemasonry uses very different symbols and emblems than Anglo-American Freemasonry)... and this is especially true when if you toss Pseudo-Masonic groups like OTO into the mix...  c) Many symbols used by the Masons are not unique to Masonry (the all seeing of God or Eye of providence is a good example).   I don't think this makes a good criteria for inclusion.Blueboar (talk) 22:15, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * So you are suggesting that Wikipedia should reject statements by architectural historians, published by scholarly publishing houses (the publisher is the Northern Illinois University Press in the case of the book about the Knox College building) because individual Wikipedia contributors who are Masons say that those sources are wrong? I don't know what's true in this situation, but I do know what Wikipedia policy says on the matter -- and due to that policy you are going to have a very hard time convincing Wikipedians to reject reliably sourced information in favor of your personal knowledge. --Orlady (talk) 22:26, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Indeed, verifiability, not truth. Although I remain concerned about single sourcing, so it would be useful to have corroboration.  And I'd make the observation that he's a Philosophy professor.
 * From my perspective, it's not a question of wrong, but given that it's completely unfamiliar I'd prefer to see some more detail. Of course given the highly profitable write garbage about Freemasonry industry it's reasonable to be a little sceptical at times.
 * An alternative approach may be to caveat the claims by direct attribution to the individual, which is a fairly common way to deal with this type of issue.
 * ALR (talk) 22:37, 25 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I think there is a risk around a section on architecture that may have been inspired by criteria. We need to find reliable sources that demonstrate a causal link, which is a challenge.  When we think about the period when a number of these buildings were built we also need to think about context.  Freemasonry was one of a number of fraternal societies, many of which shared symbolism, regalia, emblems and the like.  So a lot of the symbols were merely fashionable.  An example of an unrelated organisation is the Orange Lodge, something started by a number of former Masons, and they adopted symbolism that they were familiar with.  Orange Lodge buildings are frequently decorated in a similar manner to a Masonic Lodge, but I would challenge any assertion that they are masonic buildings, although I'm sure that my position will be challenged on my challenge!  At this rate we could probably call the Vatican a Masonic Building somehow as I'm sure it has mouldings of the sun and the moon, perhaps the stars somewhere :)  It may even have some columns, perhaps an altar...
 * The pub that Orlady identifies is quite a useful example as well, the sources don't identify any clear Masonic use. It's not out of the question that there was, as it was built in a period when most masonic meetings took place in public houses, some of which started to adopt the furnishings in their decoration.  Most towns and cities in the UK will have a Freemasons or Masons Arms pub, many of which claim to have been Masonic meeting places at some point in their history.  We really need to start thinking about how we evidence justification, was that pub actually used for masonic purposes, or was the decoration added by an overenthusiastic mason on a personal basis.  Was it just a marketing theme at some point, to build on the name?  My gut feel is that there is probably something that could justify it, but in the absence of evidence that's original research.
 * If we can find clear evidence of inspiration then that's reasonable, if not then I would suggest that inclusions may fail verifiability and  original research policies.
 * ALR (talk) 22:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The vagueness of the language put forth is inviting a problem. There's very little architecture that is "Masonically influenced" in terms of the outside of the building.  I think the intent is to get at things like Lodge rooms, because a Lodge room is "Masonic", but it's inside the building, and has little to do with the building itself.  If items in the lede are not making definitive, conclusive, and easily verifiable statements, we should not be considering them at all, because vague statements will lead us right back to problems with inclusion criteria.
 * I'd also like to touch on "causal link", because that's a huge problem here. We know for a fact that many fraternal organizations, philosophical groups, religious organizations, and even benevolent societies used Freemasonry as a model, directly or indirectly.  That's problem one.  Problem two is that sometimes it goes the other way - I heard an anecdote recently about a very small side order in Freemasonry that took everything it does out of an older military context that had nothing to do with Freemasonry.  Problem three is that from the perspective of symbolism, Freemasonry adopted a lot of universal things into itself (as was mentioned).  Much of this is not apparent, and a lot of scholars who poke at such things don't have the Masonic knowledge to really do a solid job of proving their point, or if they do, they see a similarity and run with it to the bitter end, and the result is a lot of weak conjecture (Margaret Jacob) or outright pseudohistorical nonsense (Knight & Lomas).  It's published, it's verifiable, but it's not factually accurate; other scholars have easily discounted them.  So let's stick to what we can prove with multiple reliable sources without resorting to questionable linkages. MSJapan (talk) 04:05, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Rewrite of introduction
I did a fairly extensive rewrite of the introduction in an attempt to create and describe what I think will be a defensible set of inclusion criteria. As defined, this is a list of buildings that are notable as buildings and that were either built by Masonic groups for Masonic use or are otherwise strongly associated with Freemasonry. In almost all cases, the notability of the items on the list is not derived from their relationship with Freemasonry, but is derived from their importance as buildings. The primary charter for the list is "built by Freemasons" or "extensively used for Masonic activities," but there is a sub-list for "Other buildings thought to be 'Masonic'". This is provided so that buildings like the one at Knox College can be discussed without saying that they are "Masonic" buildings.

The introduction isn't done, and the list needs a lot of work, but I hope that this is a step toward creating a good encyclopedic list. --Orlady (talk) 04:09, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't entirely disagree with your rewrite, as it does clarify some things, but it seems to me that the connection to Freemasonry is basically secondary if we go this route; notability does not hinge upon a Masonic connection, and the level of connection is very wide-ranging. So I would posit the following question: Objectively speaking, in the scope of this list, is the Masonic connection important, or is it merely a trivial connection these buildings happen to share?  I ask because the tone of the lede seems to imply the latter (I get the sense of "notable buildings" being much more important and solid than the rather more vague "some sort of actual or purported Masonic connection"), which calls into question the encyclopedic value of the list as it is titled. MSJapan (talk) 05:35, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I think MSJ has a point... and a possible solution. A renaming and slight refocusing of the list may resolve a lot of the problems with this list.  The current title implies that the buildings' Masonic associations are what make the building notable.  Thus my insistence that we find sources to substantiate that idea.  However, I think what actually makes the buildings in this list notable are their historic associations.  If we make that clearer with a new title, we might end up with a more clearly defined criteria for inclusion.  Potential titles might be: List of historic buildings with a Masonic association, or the narrower List of historic buildings built by Masonic organizations.  Thoughts? Blueboar (talk) 12:15, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Hmm... It may be useful to remember that the title of a Wikipedia list article does not need to provide a complete definition of the list's inclusion criteria. Some do, but there are many featured lists whose titles do not fully explain their contents, such as List of Chicago Bears seasons and List of sister cities in Maryland. Another good example (but not a featured list) of a title that does not fully explain its scope is List of bow tie wearers. The scope of these and other lists is documented in the lead section, not solely in the title. An additional point to keep in mind is that not all of the buildings that "should" be on this list are notable as historic buildings -- indeed, not every building on the National Register of Historic Places is there as an historic building.
 * I wonder if your concerns could be mitigated by changing the title from upper-case "Masonic" to the lower-case "masonic". I think the upper-case version might be what implies an official connection with Freemasonry, whereas the lower-case version does not imply an official relationship. --Orlady (talk) 14:32, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, lowercase indicates no relationship at all. "Masonic" with caps is a proper noun referring to the fraternal group, and I don't believe it has common usage otherwise.  Also, I think the two list titles you give as examples do explain their contents - I expect List of Chicago Bears seasons to be exactly that - a list of the seasons the Bears have played, with probably some records and stats, and a link to a larger article.  Sister cities in Maryland I expect to be a list of cities in Maryland that have a sister city relationship with some other city in the world.  The title may not explain fully, but it is still giving the reader some contextual clues.
 * I think the crux of the matter is still "Is the Masonic connection really important?" I know we have had instances where the building is on here, but was not listed as a current Masonic meeting place.  However, the problem still remains that we don't know what the nom papers say about those buildings; it's possible that the listing could care less and there's nothing notable about the Masonic connection other than a footnote in the building's history.  Conversely, it could be the main historical factor in the listing.  So deciding whether that aspect really matters seems to be key to figuring out what to do with this list, and to figure that out, we really need the full NRHP documentation for each building.  Otherwise we are making a lot of assumptions for which we have no sources to support or disprove the assumption.  Are there any of these sorts of building lists (meaning NRHP buildings by purpose or association) elsewhere on WP? MSJapan (talk) 15:38, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Since you don't see the analogies to those other article titles, I guess I need to explain my thinking. Regarding "Sister cities in Maryland", note that the list includes some non-cities (e.g. regions) that have "sister" or "twinning" relationships, and thus are not explicitly identified in the title. Thus, the use of "Sister cities" in the title is analogous to the use of "Masonic buildings" in the title of this article, in that the title does not comprehensively and precisely describe the scope of the article. Regarding "List of Chicago Bears seasons," although the scope may be apparent to you, I don't find it obvious. Similarly, the scope of "List of Masonic buildings" might be apparent to many readers of the encyclopedia, even though it is not apparent to you.
 * When you ask "Is the Masonic connection really important?", I believe you are confounding "importance" with "notability" again. Using the analogy with List of bow tie wearers, the fact that a person is known for wearing a bow tie is not important, but the fact that this phenomenon has been documented by numerous reliable sources makes it notable. We can argue until the cows come home about whether the fact that buildings were built by Masons is important, but since this relationship has been documented by multiple reliable sources, it's notable for the purposes of Wikipedia.
 * You question whether the word "masonic" has meaning without the initial uppercase "M". I looked it up in several dictionaries. While some use it exclusively with the uppercase "M", this is not universally true. Since my print copy of the Oxford English Dictionary is one that includes the lowercase "m", I believe there is a sound basis for Wikipedia using it with a lowercase "m".
 * As for other lists of buildings, I know there are examples, but I need to sign off on this comment now... --Orlady (talk) 16:12, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Regarding the request for other lists of buildings, here are a few analogous examples:
 * List of Woolworth buildings - Note that this is not a list of every Woolworth store ever built (only of stores notable for some reason), and it does not include a detailed exegesis of each building's relationship to Woolworth.
 * List of Coca-Cola buildings and structures - Similar to the Woolworth list, but with more details.
 * List of Crusader castles - Note that "Crusader castle" is broadly defined here. Otherwise, this is a topic that assuredly could be a far more complex intellectual exercise than a discussion of "Masonic buildings".
 * List of grain elevators - Note that this list includes active grain elevators, as well as some buildings whose current use has nothing to do with their history as grain elevators.
 * People who like lists of buildings probably could give you more examples. --Orlady (talk) 17:03, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Broadly the rewrite deals with some of my concerns about this article, although I remain concerned that the initial sentence glosses over the fact that we're discussing up to four classes of building; Masonic, appendant, associated and assumed to be associated.
 * I would prefer the article were retitled to reflect that, whilst I acknowledge that the title in Wikipedia doesn't always reflect the article content, the potential to re-title has been raised by a number of editors not actively involved in this article as a way to break through the concerns expressed on all sides of this debate.
 * There is a globalisation issue, inasmuch as most of the sources do seem to be US focused, unless some of the androgynous or atheist bodies have something.
 * ALR (talk) 17:42, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Rename?
I suggested this above, but I think it deserves its own section. Would renaming this article resolve any of the difficulties we are having? The current title implies that the emphasis of the article is on the masonic nature of the buildings... that the buildings are notable because they are Masonic. That requires a) establishing that being Masonic is a notable attribute for a building to have and b) substantiating that the items listed are known for being Masonic... both of which are problematic. However, I think we all agree that the buildings listed are notable. The question is "what are they notable for"? I would contend that they are notable for being on various historic building registries. This implies that the attribute that makes them notable is their historic nature, not their Masonic nature.

So what if we changed the title to something along the lines of List of historic buildings with Masonic associations or the narrower List of historic buildings constructed by Masonic groups (I would be open to other suggestions)? I think this would shift topic away from the problematic "Masonic buildings that happen to be historic (ie notable)" to the potentially more justifiable "Historic (ie notable) buildings that happen to be Masonic".

(note... I still have questions as to whether a name change would result in a topic that is notable enough to pass WP:N... and I have asked about this at WT:N... but I do think the name change would result in a more notable topic that might pass WP:N)... inclusion would certainly be more verifiable.) Thoughts? Blueboar (talk) 14:08, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Those suggested names don't work for me, but I have an alternative that I think might address your concerns.
 * As I discussed above, it's useful to remember that the title of a Wikipedia list article does not need to provide a complete definition of the list's inclusion criteria. Some do, but there are many featured lists whose titles do not fully explain their contents, such as List of Chicago Bears seasons and List of sister cities in Maryland. Another good example (but not a featured list) of a title that does not fully explain its scope is List of bow tie wearers. The scope of these and other lists is documented in the lead section, not solely in the title. This article also does not need to fully document its inclusion criteria in its title.
 * An additional point to keep in mind is that not all of the buildings that "should" be on this list are notable as historic buildings -- indeed, not every building on the National Register of Historic Places is there as an historic building.
 * I wonder if your concerns could be mitigated by changing the title from upper-case "Masonic" to the lower-case "masonic". I think the upper-case version might be what implies an official connection with Freemasonry, whereas the lower-case version does not imply an official relationship. --Orlady (talk) 14:35, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * No, that does not work... the lower case "masonic" as an adjective refers to stone masonry, not the fraternity (it is always capitalized when referring to the fraternal order). My concern is more over the fact that the current title implies that adjective "Masonic" is the primary attribute for the list, when it should actually be a secondary attribute.  What makes the items that are listed notable is not their connection to the fraternity, but their inclusion in some sort of heritage/landmark registry (where they are listed for their history, architecture, or any number of other reasons... but not listed due to their connection to the fraternity).  I think that this is one of those situations where the title needs to be clear as to what is intended.  The fact of registry is what is important, and needs to be noted in the title.  Perhaps Landmark building with a Masonic connection (which would allow for buildings that are on the registry for other reasons than history, but would make it clear that the fraternal connection is secondary to their status as a landmark).
 * In fact... now that I think about it, it might be best to expand this beyond just buildings associated with freemasonry... what about Landmark buildings associated with fraternal orders? This would add landmarked Oddfellows Halls, Elks Lodges, Knights of Columbus buildings, etc. to the list (and would make the entire "are the shiners Masons?" debate irrelevant). Blueboar (talk) 15:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I've responded to several of your concerns in greater detail in the above section Rewrite of introduction. (Like Doncram, I'm getting rather fatigued with the idea that every discussion needs to be conducted in several places at the same time.)


 * As for lower-case "masonic," the Oxford English Dictionary uses it in the lower case as a adjective referring to freemasonry. To my mind, if it's in the OED, it's part of the English language for purposes of Wikipedia.


 * As for your theory that all of these buildings can be properly labeled "landmark buildings" in an article title, that's totally unacceptable because most of these buildings have never been designated "landmark buildings" (and in some cases haven't been called by that name in any published form). Note that being listed on the National Register of Historic Places does not indicate that a building is a "landmark" --even less than it indicates it to be "historic." --Orlady (talk) 17:31, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * My preference is for ...with a masonic connection or association. It makes clear that the notability is with the building for architectural or historic reasons.  The latter part allows for the very weak association buildings and the non-masonic ones.
 * I wouldn't object to the fraternal orders suggestion as that mitigates for my concerns about pseudomasonic orders being included.
 * ALR (talk) 15:07, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Here's another suggestion: Let's rename it "List of masonic buildings" and remove it from WikiProject Freemasonry so that you Freemasons won't have to look at it any more. --Orlady (talk) 17:31, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I would be quite happy to have this article as disassociated with Freemasonry as possible. Unfortunately since everyone knows what Freemasonry means we'll fairly quickly end up with some wag adding stuff like the  Skull and Bones Hall as the Skull and Bones are masonic symbols and I'm sure you could find sources that claim that it's a masonic building.
 * ALR (talk) 18:21, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

How a list focused on landmark status, and expanded to all Fraternal Orders might be structured
Running with the idea of focusing on Landmark status, and opening it up to all Fraternal Orders ... and incorporating the structure suggested by Balloonman... I could see the revised list taking the following form:

Thoughts? Blueboar (talk) 15:53, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * As noted above, your concept of "Landmark status" would be a Wikipedia neologism -- and thus is unacceptable. As for scope, there may be some value in a List of Odd Fellows buildings, although I believe the history and nature of these buildings is rather different from that of masonic buildings. More significantly, this list of masonic buildings is inherently plenty long enough without adding the topics of Odd Fellows, Elks, Moose, etc. Thus, if those lists are created, from a practical standpoint they need to be separate.
 * Aside: I presume you aren't thinking about including university fraternity houses in your list, but I have a feeling you would have a hard time explaining why they don't belong. --Orlady (talk) 17:31, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Further ruminations... A further concern I have with your nice-looking table is that the proposed table's emphasis on which fraternal order a particular building is associated with would only encourage the misconception that the building's notability is derived from its connection with that fraternal order. --Orlady (talk) 18:34, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Why not just use listed buildings and identify what's meant by listed in the introduction.
 * Notwithstanding the inevitable resistance to expanding the scope of the bodies that might be appropriate that column does provide us with an opportunity to identify whether the building is Masonic, Appendant, Associated etc.
 * ALR (talk) 17:48, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The term "listed building" has essentially the same issue as "landmark status." "Listed building" has a specific and definite meaning in the United Kingdom. If this same term were used by all jurisdictions that maintain heritage registers, then it might be appropriate for Wikipedia to use it for all buildings that are listed on heritage registers, but it isn't a universal term and it would not be appropriate for Wikipedia to use it for buildings that are on heritage registers that don't use that term. Furthermore, not all notable buildings within the scope of this article are on heritage registers (for example, Zetland Hall is not, and Masonic Temple (Chicago, Illinois) was torn down before heritage registers existed).
 * PS - As persistent as the Freemasonry editors are in fighting the perceived misuse of the word "Masonic," I hope that you appreciate that there are contexts outside Freemasonry within which the definitions of terms need to be respected. --Orlady (talk) 18:31, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Indeed. Can you come up with a suggestion that encompasses what we're trying to say?
 * How about we just say notable?
 * ALR (talk) 18:35, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * By convention, Wikipedia lists such as this one do not use "notable" in their titles. That is a given -- but it typically is stated in the article's lead section. To see what I mean, look at List of bow tie wearers and List of grain elevators -- two lists that include only notable examples of the topics named in their titles.
 * IMO, the title List of masonic buildings (note lower-case m) works well. --Orlady (talk) 18:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

As a person unfamiliar w/ masons, and writing 1 handed due 2 feeding a baby, i think the order idea has some merit, but not as proposed. but first, do these different orders exist outside the u.s./canada? eg throughtout asia/europe/etc? if so, then rather than having a column, use different orders to break up table into smaller more manageable ones. a table for Odd Fellows, Elks, Moose, etc.... tables if applicable for Masonic, Appendant, Associated etc. tables for historical ties. i'm not sure of how to break it down, but the breakdown could be done in a manner that helps solve the question of defining what is/isn't masonic. there could then be notes added to each table not references, but notes similar to those found on here. The notes might be usable to clarify issues. EG a hall that was an Odd Fellow for decades, but has now become an Elk. Or a Masonic Hall that belongs to a group that has been "excommunicated" or "broke away" from others. again, tryin to think outside the box to find a viable solution for all.--- Balloonman  NO! I'm Spartacus! 02:56, 30 August 2010 (UTC)