Talk:List of NHL statistical leaders by country of birth/Archive 1

Top Ten
I think that having the top ten from each country would make a more complete article. The top five doesn't really say enough, i don't think anyway. Masterhatch 17:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Steve Thomas and the like
What about a player like Steve Thomas (ice hockey)? Would he go into the top Brits since he was born in England? I guess Owen Nolan can fit in with the top Brits too, eh? I guess my point is, are we going by birth country or where they grew up? Also, what about Stan Mikita? I think that there are a lot of grey areas surrounding this topic. Masterhatch 17:53, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I would do it how the IIHF does it; i.e. whatever country you play for internationally is your country. BoojiBoy 18:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Some players, such as Peter Stastny, have played for more than one international team. Masterhatch 19:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Under IIHF rules, players cannot play for more than one international team. In special cases like the breakup of communism, Stastny would obviously be a Slovak, just as Rocket Richard would be a Quebecois if Quebec ever separated. As for Thomas, he may have been born in Manchester but he grew up in the GTA, so I wouldn't count him as a Brit. BoojiBoy 22:57, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Bollocks. Nabokov played for Kazakhstan in his youth but was allowed to join the Russia national team —Preceding unsigned comment added by Forseti11 (talk • contribs) 04:35, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, it should be sort according to nationality which the player consider himself of. Like when I once met Stan Mikita he said he considered himself a Slovak. Also Peter Bondra has nothing to do with Ukraine, he has always been Slovak. Probably the same thing as Steve Thomas is not an Englishman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jasooon (talk • contribs) 04:07, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Place O' Birth "is" Place O' Birth
If your birth certificate says "Born" - "England" you are a Brit. Rod Langway is from Taiwan... so, he is Taiwanese.. Doesn't matter what country you get citizenship in because you can be a citizen of multiple nations. For accuracy and the potential for statistical redundancy it should be place of Birth.
 * Afterthought I'm pretty sure Gretzky could play for Poland in the next Olympics if he really wanted to so he would be the Leading Scorer for Poland in the NHL. All he would have to do is step on the ice for a second in international competition to meet the criteria of the theory mentioned above.
 * While I agree with you that it should be place of birth, i highly disagree with langway because he was born to american parents in Taiwan and was never a citizen there. Masterhatch 02:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Which brings us to another point -- just because you're born in a country doesn't mean you have citizenship there, even if your parents and/or family is from there too. For example, I was born in Hong Kong but raised in Canada, and my whole family's Chinese, but I do not have Chinese or Hong Kong citizenship (and, in fact, I'm ineligible for it). -→ Buchanan-Hermit ™ / ?!  07:47, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, Langway is kind of a bad example but technically... its either A or B... can't be AB.... kinda like and X & Y chromosome thingy. You can't cross them or you'll create something weird looking... I actually have no idea what that means but hey it's an analogy anyway. -Rainman71 16:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Another good example
Petr Nedved is a Canadian citizen and has played internationally for Canada...... so why is he on the Czech list? (pardon the pun).

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Rainman71 (talk • contribs) 01:10, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Very true, also Dany Heatley is Canadian. He was born in Germany only because his father, also Canadian, was playing hockey in a German league at the time. Heatley also plays on the Canadian Olympic team.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.14.231 (talk) 20:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The NHL is really really old
Just a note to some that NHL stats do go back further than 1988 and they actually count in the record book too.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Rainman71 (talk • contribs) 01:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Good ole Ed
I'm sure if you talk to Mr. Kea he will tell how proud he is of being born in Holland and living there til kindergarten age. Just food for thought.
 * Oops forgot to sign my name....the 4 points above belong to moi -Rainman71 01:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

....and someone help because I have no idea how to stretch out the tables to make them a uniform width. I'm too lazy to try and find the answer and I don't like instructions so I would greatly appreciate the assistance. -Rainman71 01:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Nevermind I figured it out

Yeah...you're actually right.
My mistake, I just saw that Nedved did represent Canada at some international competitions...I'll update the list. -The Dude 2

Forgot to mention; a player can't play for another Country in that kind of competition once he did.
 * There is no way Nedved should be in the canada list. This is what i meant earlier that there are too many grey areas!!! Masterhatch 02:34, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * In my mind the player has to have PLAYED for their country on the international stage to be considered. Otherwise the list is somewhat farcical, as Paul Kea is less a Dutchman than Owen Hargreaves is an Englishman, and he's playing for England at the World Cup. And everyone sign your posts. BoojiBoy 03:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * he he I love debates -Rainman71 16:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Pssst. it's Ed Kea... Don't really know if he had a brother named Paul or not.-Rainman71
 * Well, Paul Kea isn't a Dutchman either. :P BoojiBoy 17:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I do not concur Doctor.....but I bet he has a pair of wooden clogs in his house somewhere. Clogs are Dutch right? -Rainman71 18:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Great Britain vs. England
I would rather see the category use the British flag as opposed the English flag, that way we can include players born in Scotland and Northern Ireland in the same list of top ten. Masterhatch 17:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * So, are England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland separate countries? I think not. They all fall under the category of "United Kingdom". I wouldn't separate out B.C. players from Quebec players, so why are these players being split up like that? Wouldn't it make sense to lump the players from England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland into one group? Lumping Northern ireland players and ireland players together is wrong. It is like lumping players from Nova Scotia with players from the Maine. I strongly suggest that we use a common heading of united kingdom players. Masterhatch 22:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The reason the Irish and Northern Irish players are together at the moment is because the person who first put them up simply labeled ALL of them as Irish, which is equally wrong. We're in the process of trying to figure out who was Irish and who was N. Irish, but it's complicated by the facts that a) all of the hockey databases simply list them as coming from Ireland without making any distinction between the two (believe me, "Belfast, Ireland" looks every bit as strange as it sounds), and b) the two players who still have Irish flags next to their names were both born in places that apparently don't exist any more! Or if they do, not under those names (I found a web page listing every town in Ireland and Northern Ireland with a population of at least 1,000, and neither place was on the list). So in essence we don't have three Northern Irish and two Irish players under one heading, as much as we have three players who are confirmed to be Northern Irish, and two who are of some kind of Irish origin, we just can't figure out which one. So if anyone out there knows which portion of the island Dough Grange and/or Berckenla (Berkenla?) could be found, we'd be very grateful!
 * As far as the issue at hand goes, though, the question is whether we want to remain consistent with the way the Hockey Hall of Fame and the official international records classify them (which is to separate out English from Scottish from Welsh, etc.), or whether we want to put them under one heading, primarily on the basis that the UK does in fact (unlike in soccer) field a unified hockey team (with Ireland also fielding a separate one). That would really be the only reason to do that, though, because technically you're wrong about asserting that they're all one country. They're not four independent sovereign states, but they are recognized as separate countries and the UK as a whole is considered to be a political union, a set of countries within a country if you will. The official web site of the British Prime Minister's office states plainly, "The United Kingdom is made up of four countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland." See here for that page, and also see the constituent country Wiki article, which discusses the distinction in depth.--Zequist 00:23, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The Official Standard
The Hockey Hall of Fame keeps track of these "by nation" records strictly by birth country (based on current borders), with no concern for why the player was born there or what their actual citizenship is. For example, if you look at the "records by country" page of their website (http://www.hhof.com/html/r&r-C.shtml), you'll see that they officially credit Robyn Regehr as the NHL's all-time leading Brazilian scorer, because that's where he was born (his parents were missionaries). I propose that if that is how the records are officially kept by the NHL and HHOF then that is how we should keep them here. Because Wikipedia's articles are supposed to be factual and encyclopedic in nature; if we started applying our own independent standards as to what we "think" someone's country should be, in contradiction of an established standard (and in contradiction of other sources that a researcher might consult), then we would in effect be doing original research, which is not allowed under Wikipedia's rules (and we wouldn't be doing that poor researcher any favors, only giving him a headache - I'm an information professional, and there's nothing I hate more than sources that can't even keep their basic facts consistent).

I would propose, however, that if we do adopt the "birth country" standard followed by the NHL/HHOF, then we should also change the title of the article to "List of NHL Statistical Leaders by Birth Country," so that there is no room for confusion. --Zequist 15:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree to this. Well-argued. BoojiBoy 16:11, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Gord Pettinger
HockeyDB records Gord Pettinger as having been born in Regina, SK. There may have been two Gords Pettinger, but the one whose stats were on the England list was the Reginan. Hence I have deleted him. BoojiBoy 16:17, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * There was only one, but we have conflicting information about him (I believe I said something earlier about hating it when that happens). HDB says he was born in Regina, but Legends of Hockey says he was born in England and (with big brother Eric) moved to Regina as a child (see the article on Norm Mann for information). Maybe someone could contact the Hockey HOF or the NHL and get a definitive answer.--Zequist 23:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Missing
The list is still missing Kazakhstan and Austria. BoojiBoy 14:10, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Bondra
Dear friends, this is pretty ridiculous. If someone is born in other country "accidentally" (as is the case of Bondra - his father was the Czechoslovak diplomat working in Ukraine), he should not be included in that country. Bondra for the whole life has Slovak nationality, for the whole life he has Slovak (well Czechoslovak) citizenship, for the whole life is playing for Slovakia and has absolutely nothing in common with Ukraine. I understand that your point of view is to copy HHOF, but you should consider the possibility that they have it wrong (as is the case of Bondra).

The country of birth has sense only in the connection with original nationality/citizenship (so that other country is not "credited" with player who changed his mind about nationality/citizenship). This is not the case of Bondra. --Martye 14:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * This is a list of players by country of birth. Robyn Regehr and Richie Regehr are brothers, both Canadian, but they are listed under Brazil and Indonesia because their parents were missionaries. Bondra was born in the Ukraine. BoojiBoy 14:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * And this is what is illogical and wrong. Such list has absolutelly no meaning and is useless. Similarly you can construct list of players according to car they used, it would have similar sense. As I see from the history, the original meaning of this list was much different. Martye 17:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * This is the way the hockey record books keep track of "nationality", therefore it is the way we decided do it here. To decide on our own initiative that the official record book is wrong, and that someone should be listed under some other country instead, is not only a disservice to researchers, who would be getting inconsistent and contradictory information depending on which source they checked, but it would also be considered original research on our part, which is a violation of Wikipedia rules. The purpose of Wikipedia is to report factual information as it exists, not as we think it should be reported. Does it make sense for the records to list Regehr as Brazilian or Rod Langway (whenever we get him up) as Taiwanese? Maybe not, but as long as the system allows someone to be technically eligible for twenty different national teams based on birth, residence, citizenship, ancestry, and ad nauseum, there are always going to be some unorthodox cases no matter what standard you adopted. If you say "national team he played for," you'll have players like Peter Stastny who played for more than one national team, and other players who never played for a national team at all and can't be judged that way. If you say "citizenship", you'll have players with citizenships in two or three different countries. If you say "country he identifies himself with," then you run into a case like Brett Hull who has dual Canadian-American citizenship and has said in his interviews that he's not partial to either country over the other. And if you apply different criteria to different players then your data would be useless, because there would be no consistent standard by which to compare the players on the list. Birth country may not always be the most logical standard in every case, but out of all the standards you could pick it's certainly the most straightforward, and it saves far more headaches than it creates.--Zequist 02:32, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Correct please! Bondra is not Ukrainian player!!! NickSt (from Ukraine), 11 November 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.112.30.175 (talk) 22:21, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Ranking of countries, England or UK?
Seems that for the first 11 or so countries and their players, they are listed according to points by the leading scorer. But then the following countries are listed in no discernible order. Perhaps someone should correct this so they are all ranked by the leading scorer of each country? That would leave Indonesia on the bottom, Belgium second-last.

As for listing England, Scotland etc as separate countries, it seems to me to be rather pedantic to do it that way. The HHF may indeed list them separately, but that is probably more a throw-back to Canada's British roots and the tendency to be more specific as to "nations."

Besides, as the "constituent country" article notes, the British use the term "country" in both senses - the Prime Minister's website where it is above mentioned describes the Wales etc as "countries" labels the section: "Countries within a country."

Seems to me we should consider what usually is seen as a "nation" - an entity with a central government recognized internationally, such as at the UN, as a single entity. That way, we won't get into the debate over whether Quebec or the Basque constitute separate "nations," and only a few States will have uncertain status, such as Taiwan, though de facto it is a seperate entity from China.

Canada Jack 23:22, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * They're SUPPOSED to be ranked by the leading scorer of each country. It gets messed up sometimes because people come in and add a new country and don't pay attention to the correct format - they just randomly stick it in the middle of the list. But this is the sort of article that needs to be cleaned up on a regular basis anyway, so we just fix it whenever we do that (like I did just now, for instance).--Zequist 04:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Label the countries...
The countries should be labeled above each table...it is really inconvineint to roll the mouse over the flag to find out which country belongs to which table.Ans3000 07:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

A thought about the mess that is this page
Since so many of these guys are not obviously from the countries they are listed under, perhaps their should be an asterisk or some type of symbol explaining that they are really from a differnt country? Because its hideous to see Mikita as Czech, Bondra as Ukranian, Regher's as Brazilian and Indonesian, etc. Just a thought. As it really does hurt the eyes of hockey fans all around, as seen on this talk page. Kaiser matias 06:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Two major changes
First, I've gone through and added subheadings for each birth country listed. This will greatly facilitate both navigation and editing, and it will also help out those who have requested being given more tools than just a flag to identify a country. As a tradeoff, I had to slightly alter the table code; the column widths are now fixed manually, rather than being automatic. I had to do that because with the subheadings added in Wikipedia now saw 40 tables instead of one, so each country table had a completely different width and the page looked horrible.

Also, at this point I've simply gone ahead and changed all the Ireland flags to Northern Ireland. I did that partly because 5 of the 6 are now definitively known to be Northern Irish anyway, so there's an odds-on chance that all six are, and also because the two countries were never meant to stay together on that table; that was only supposed to be temporary until we could determine the origins of the players we weren't certain about (originally three, now just one - Jack Riley is the only one who's origin is still uncertain, mainly because Berckenla where he was born doesn't seem to exist any more).--Zequist 05:50, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Japan missing
I suppose Fukufuji became the first Japanese player to play in the NHL.. therefore, should a Japanese section be added? Sure he has zero points.. but that still leads all Japanese NHLers. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 139.142.199.186 (talk) 04:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC).
 * That logic could be used for anything ridiculous and therefore should be avoided? Forseti11 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 04:38, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

06-07
I've updated most of the countries stats as of 06-07.. but didn't really check to see if any new players have broke into the top... if anyone can help checking to see this is 100% up to date that'd be great! IrisKawling 09:00, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Brian Leetch
Anyone think the active designation for Brian Leetch should be removed?
 * It's all right, he's retired. GoodDay 21:55, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Denoting active players
As proposed at Talk:List of National Hockey League statistical leaders, I would like to denote active players in bold which is (presumably) more visible to readers than an asterisk, and fits the standard set by List of NHL players with 1000 points and List of NHL players with 500 goals. (Check out those two pages to see how well the bold works).

Please comment. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 02:30, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

About Rod Langway
If you read the introduction of the article, List of NHL statistical leaders by country, you would notice that it says "by their country of birth, regardless of their citizenship, following Hockey Hall of Fame convention." So if one were to look at the relevent section here, which also states "players are categorized by birthplace based on current geographical regions, not citizenship," it lists Langway as the top scorer for Taiwan. Whether or not he was born on a US military base, which there is no source proving this, he was still born in Taiwan. That's why the HHOF lists him as being from Taiwan, and that's why he is included in the list on Taiwan on the article. If there are any further issues with the conventions of the article, add it here, or at the ice hockey project talk page. Thank you. Kaiser matias 06:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Diacritics Notice
I've removed diacritics from this article, as it's NHL related, thus following WikiProjects preference. PS- as usual, the Teemu Selanne, Markus Naslund and Nicklas Lidstrom entries, are the culprits. GoodDay 21:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

No Goaltenders?
I've noticed that there is nothing about goaltenders on this page, and no discussion about it either. It would be nice to have some goaltenders on here as well. 4:37, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes. But what statistic should we use? Wins? Maybe we could create a separate article for the goalies. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 18:52, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Ireland
User:One Night In Hackney seems to believe that we should not distinguish between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. In fact, he also changed the pages of those players born in Northern Ireland to reflect this—Jim McFadden (diff), Bobby Kirk (diff), and Sammy McManus (diff), but not Owen Nolan or Sid Finney.

I think there should be a distinction between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, as they are separate states, but I'm not going to re-revert this edit, because I don't want to incite an edit war. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 13:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I suppose his argument may be that the players were born before Ireland was divided, but we show Soviet-born players, Czechoslovakian players, etc, under their current nationalities. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 13:45, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I did not change the pages of anyone born in Northern Ireland. The people I changed were not born in Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland, they were born in Ireland as they were born pre-partition. That is the agreed method per WP:IMOS. Looking above at this section I see that "by their country of birth, regardless of their citizenship, following Hockey Hall of Fame convention" is mentioned, and this source is also cited, which states "Note: players are categorized by birthplace based on current geographical regions, not citizenship". The geographical region is Ireland, and if you actually scroll down on that source you will see that Owen Nolan is listed under Ireland. Naturally I wouldn't consider changing his place of birth, but by using Northern Ireland in this article it's not only factually incorrect for four out of the six people listed, it's also a distinction that isn't made by the HHOF. One Night In Hackney  303  15:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Not a single one of those players was born in the Republic of Ireland. Every one was born in the United Kingdom - two in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and four in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.  Having this section, with the Irish tricolour flag used to identify all six, is POV and incorrect.  I suggest that these names be merged with those of England, Scotland and Wales into a single United Kingdom section.  If not, then at a minimum the Irish tricolour flag must be removed.  It is not applicable to any of those six players.  — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 16:49, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Merger isn't an option, so the flag has gone. By the way, it's the flag the HHOF uses, see here. Oh and one more thing, seeing as you think the Ulster Banner is the de facto flag of Northern Ireland and should therefore be used pretty much everywhere, exactly which flag do you think is the de facto flag of Ireland? The one that was being used and you objected to, how strange! One Night In Hackney  303  16:52, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * How do you possibly draw that conclusion of what I think? I have never advocated that position, and resent that accusation, so please retract it.  As for what to do with this article, I would have renamed four sections as "United Kingdom – England", "United Kingdom – Scotland", "United Kingdom – Wales", and "United Kingdom – Ireland and Northern Ireland", and used the Union Jack for all four sections.  That is the most neutral POV, if flags have to be used at all. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I can easily track down the diffs to support it, but it'll take me a little while, so I have no intention of retracting. Please read this article, this isn't one where countries can be moved around to suit as it uses statistics from the various ice hockey bodies, so their use of countries takes precedence, as does their use of geographical regions not political ones. I see you also sidestepped my question, perhaps you could answer it now? What is the de facto flag of Ireland? One Night In Hackney  303  18:26, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I'll help you with the diffs. Please read this, where I made a very clear and detailed list of where I thought that flag could be used and where it should not be used.  I outlined a fairly short list of places where I thought it was okay, and listed many more places where I noted the flag must be removed.  I also spent a lot of time performing some of those removal edits myself!   As for your question, I do not think the entire geographic entity that is the island of Ireland has a single de facto flag.  There are two de jure flags in use, and three de facto flags in use.  Lastly, this discussion thread has ceased to be about this list article, so please move further discussion to my (or your) user talk page if you wish to continue.  Thanks — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

The HHPF use the Tricolour as they play as a all-Ireland team, that if any flag should be used, personally I think no flag is necessary at all.--Padraig (talk) 19:02, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The use of flags on this page is not to identify the Ireland national ice hockey team (for which I agree with you, the tricolour is appropriate, despite being an all-Ireland team), but to identify the birth place of the set of players. I think this usage conflicts with guidelines set at Manual of Style (flags), so I would also advocate removal of all flags from this list.  — Andrwsc (talk · contribs)


 * The notes are unnecssary, as it follows Hockey Hall of Fame conventions. For example the HHOF lists Owen Nolan as born in Ireland. Can you explain right now why you've added a note to Ireland and yet none to England, Wales or Scotland? This kind of anti-Irish bias has been raised on IMOS before, and it's agreed that people's birthplace is listed strictly as Ireland (assuming they were born pre-partition), not as any political entity.  One Night In Hackney  303  19:11, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * What note is necessary for England, Wales or Scotland? They have remained unchanged through the scope of this article (players born in the early 1900s are the oldest mentioned here).  I have no anti-Irish bias whatsoever; my only objection is when I see instances of people born in pre-partition Ireland "claimed" by the Republic of Ireland by slapping a tricolour next to their names.  Even worse is the case of Owen Nolan, who was born in Northern Ireland, post-partition.  It would be political POV to identify him using the tricolour instead of the union flag.  — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:28, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * No England, Scotland and Wales haven't, they were part of two different entities. They've never been independent, but you've neglected to mention that they were part of either variation of the UK. Make sure everyone knows that some of Ireland has always been part of the UK, but England, Scotland and Wales always get a free pass. This kind of bias is mentioned here, and the type of addition you made was expressly rejected. As before, this article goes by HHOF convention, take a look here in addition to them saying Owen Nolan was born in Ieland. Look at that flag, look at Sid Finney's name next to it. Seeing as you failed to give a straight answer before, I'll answer the question for you. The de facto flag of Ireland is the Tricolour. After all it's the one that's seen as the flag of Ireland by the majority of the population, and I've produced the sporting source you're always in favour of to show it's use was wholly appropriate in relation to this article. But I removed it anyway. However your latest addition is just a joke, read the sources, read the conventions, and either apply the standard equally or not at all. One Night In Hackney  303  19:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * If you think my edits are "just a joke", be bold and fix them yourself. The only thing I'll be looking for is to make sure that the page does not imply that any of these players were born in the Republic of Ireland, because none of them were.  You have already made one good edit by replacing the flag template (which causes a wikilink to   to be rendered) with a link to  .  — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:24, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * With pleasure, so please leave political nonsense out of this article like the HHOF do. Pity you can't use the same standard you used to determine what you think the de facto flag of Northern Ireland and say what the de facto flag of Ireland is, still we both know the truth don't we? One Night In Hackney  303  23:55, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I've been watching this go on now for the better part of the day, and find this all a waste of everyones time. Before I start to do anything, I just want to clarify the situation:

The issue at hand is the listing of Irish players as being from Northern Ireland when nearly all of them were born pre-partition, in effect making them born in Ireland.

If so, why can they not be listed as being from Northern Ireland, seeing how the convention has been to use the current nation. Otherwise, there would not be a seperate list for Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, etc., seeing how all those players were born in the USSR. Germany would have to be renamed West Germany and East Germany, and so forth. While the players listed as being from Northern Ireland may not have been born in a place known as Northern Ireland, it goes by that name now, and thats what they should be listed under. There is no need to have all these notes for every country that was created after the players were born, it is just an eysesore. Kaiser matias (talk) 23:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Tragically, the Northern Ireland edit squabbles have reached an NHL related article. For sanity's sake, I recommend we remove all flags from this article (trust me folks, the Irish dispute tends to get ugly, so let's avoid it here). GoodDay (talk) 23:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * May I kindly point to all users involved in this mess to Requests_for_arbitration/The_Troubles. Under my interpretation of the ruling, this is a related article and I might ask for some clarfication at Wikipedia:Arbitration enforcement or a similar forum in regards to this matter. This is a general caution to all involved, as this is a heated yet trivial (from my point of view) dispute which can get ugly.  Maxim (talk)  23:44, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks Maxim, I fear there's editors here who don't know the political mess they're potentially getting into. GoodDay (talk) 23:48, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

While my first response may not show it, I agree with trying to not get involved with the Irish disputes. Seriously, there have been six players in the history of the NHL who were born on the island of Ireland. 6 out of 3,000+. There are far more important things we can be dealing with instead of bringing in this massive dispute to a part of Wikipedia that does not hae any involvement at all. Everyone should step back a moment, think about what they are arguing about, and realise how fruitless this dispute truly is. Kaiser matias (talk) 23:52, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I also support the motion to remove flags, now that I've seen the guidelines for flag usage. They add some color to the article, but they certainly are not essential. As for the Ireland question (truthfully, I've expected this to come up sooner or later), it is true as Kaiser said that we've always used current national borders as that has been the HHOF standard. So if a player had been born in Timbuktu in 1941, for instance, we would've listed him as being born in Mali, since that's the modern nation where Timbuktu is located, even though historically Mali did not exist in 1941 (it was the colony of French Sudan, under control of the Vichy government). Similarly all of those players born in the former USSR or the former Yugoslavia who are listed based on the map as it currently exists. If we (and the HHOF) stuck to that standard religiously then the players born in what is now Northern Ireland would be considered to be from Northern Ireland, regardless of whether they were born pre- or post-partition, because historical borders are ignored. But for some reason, the HHOF has always made an exception to their own standard when it comes to Ireland & Northern Ireland and seems reluctant to acknowledge any meaningful distinction between them, perhaps trying to be "politically correct" towards both sides (thus listing Owen Nolan as being born in "Belfast, Ireland," which looks as wrong as it sounds). However, for the sake of avoiding another three days of arguing about this, I'd like to point out that their |career leaders for each country page sidesteps the issue entirely by categorizing the Irish players under "Irelands" (plural). Perhaps that would be an acceptable compromise for everyone here? --Zequist (talk) 00:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * It was not my intention to open such a juicy can of worms. Zequist's suggestion doesn't bother me. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 00:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * We don't use current national borders at all. HHOF simply uses Ireland as a geographical entity, and makes no distinction between Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland, or pre-partition. If you look here you'll see they list Owen Nolan as being from Ireland which is true in a geographical sense, but he was born in the political entity of Northern Ireland. HHOF are totally non-political, they just use geograhpical entities. One Night In Hackney  303  00:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * And what constitutes "geograhpical entities" [sic]? It is not a well-defined term. Also, how is this "factually incorrect"? − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 00:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * "Players born into a nation that has since changed its name or borders are listed under the new nation's name" - how is that factually incorrect?! People were were born in Ireland (which has since been partitioned into Northern Ireland and what is now the Republic of Ireland) are not listed under the new nation's name, the precise opposite in fact. If you're going to mock a typo but not even be able to understand the rather simple history and structure of Ireland I'd recommend not doing the former. Ireland is a geographical entity, the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are political entities.  One Night In Hackney  303  00:28, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The new nation in which Belfast finds itself is Northern Ireland. The reason this article says "Ireland" and not "Northern Ireland" is because you made that change, and I made the wise decision not to get into an edit war by reverting it. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 00:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * ONIH, it seems ludicrous to list Nolan as being born in "Ireland" when he patently wasn't, whatever the HHOF says - and per BLP, it may well be offensive to Nolan himself. He needs to have a separate section "Northern Ireland" (as do any others born  in NI post-partition - I haven't checked them all).  BLACK KITE  00:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * "ONIH, it seems ludicrous to list Nolan as being born in "Ireland" when he patently wasn't" - really? Northern Ireland was part of Ireland last time I checked, always has been and always will be. Splitting is not an option - the HHOF don't. One Night In Hackney  303  00:28, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, you know what I mean! The list says that players are listed by country of birth - and Ireland isn't a country. Why not change the title to "Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland" - everyone's happy then?  BLACK KITE  00:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Neither England, Scotland or Wales are countries either. The HHOF doesn't get political, it just uses Ireland as the links I have provided show. Please look at the nature of the article, you can't start merging or splitting things. One Night In Hackney  303  00:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't need to merge or change things, just alter the title "Ireland" in the list to something like "Ireland (includes Northern Ireland)" or suchlike. I'm trying to hit a neutral wording here.  BLACK KITE  00:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Black Kite - That was my thinking earlier when I suggested "Irelands" (which the HHOF does use on at least one of its pages). I'd be fine with your wording too, but we need to stop squabbling over trivial details and find a consensus somewhere. --Zequist (talk) 00:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, you're wrong about that. England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are all officially considered to be four separate and distinct countries, even by the UK government itself. They're not independent, but they are countries. It says right on the Prime Minister's web site, "The United Kingdom is made up of four countries." Take a look at the article Constituent country for more information.--Zequist (talk) 00:45, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, I'm not. I can assure you right now that Northern Ireland isn't a country. A constintuent country isn't a country. One Night In Hackney  303  00:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Correct; but we're getting off the point. ONIH, would you be OK with the change to "Ireland (includes Northern Ireland)"? If so, I'll get Maxim to unprotect and we can get back to work.  BLACK KITE  00:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Not really, as then the whole list would be inconsistent. You'd then need to do the same to every single other country that has changed name, borders, etc. Look at the list, there's plenty of countries it applies to. This list had little political bias prior to today, and now suddenly it's a minefield. Quick question - were any of the edits I made to the (Northern/Southern/whatever) Irish players incorrect? No, they all were correct in that they applied the correct label to where they were born. One Night In Hackney  303  01:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, nothing wrong with the edits to the players' articles. But the titling on this list could be a problem, which is why I'm trying to avoid it staying a minefield by titling the sections neutrally.  BLACK KITE  01:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * If you're going to apply the standard equally then I've no objection to it. However if it's going to be a standard arbitrarily applied to just the Ireland section then I'd strongly object. I'd really object to any politicisation of this article which I was more than happy to remove. One Night In Hackney  303  01:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I'll have a longer look tomorrow, it's late now.  BLACK KITE  01:29, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * No rush. To be honest the use of flags is a complete nightmare. For example the South Africa section uses completely the wrong flag, and the person in question holds German nationality and has lived in Canada for most of his life to confuse things even further. The basic problem is that the body that originally grouped by "country" mixed both modern and historical entities when dividing everything up. For example everyone in the Belarus section was born in the USSR, but are grouped using the "modern" (not strictly true, but you get my drift) entity of Belarus. If they'd done the same to Ireland we'd hopefully have people grouped by Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland and we wouldn't have these problems (apart from the historical ones, who unforunately make up four out of the six anyway). One Night In Hackney  303  01:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * So do we get political, or do we use the HHOF? If we use the HHOF, then the list should remain as it was.  If we want to get politicial, then Northern Ireland is not an independent country, and we should be combining most of the Irish, Welsh, Scottish and English players under a heading of Great Britain. Frankly, my vote is to use the IIHF.  It is a citable, external source that allows us to avoid this massive POV war. Resolute 00:26, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see - and I'm talking as a neutral admin who keeps an eye on Ireland-related articles - how stating the correct country of birth for a person is POV. It's just a fact, surely?  BLACK KITE  00:29, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the IIHF is the best choice. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 00:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Which is what I did earlier, look at the first post in this thread. If people were born in Ireland pre-partition they are listed as being from Ireland, we don't apply subsequent labels to them. The problem occurs with people born post-partition, but the HHOF simple uses the geographical Ireland and lumps both people from Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland together for its rankings. Are we really going to say that them doing that is POV, so we'd better make two lists? One Night In Hackney  303  00:37, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I was talking about the Irish troubles on Wikipedia as a whole. The HHOF is a citable basis for the format of this article, however.  My point is, though, that if we want to split Ireland, which I have no problem with, then lets do it properly and group anyone in the United Kingdom together. Resolute 00:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I have changed the "disclaimer" for this list. Stating that "All players are listed strictly by their country of birth" was blatantly false. None of the players listed under Russia, for example, were "strictly" born in the Russian Federation; all were born in the USSR. Individual player articles are worded similar to this: Jaromír Jágr, born February 15, 1972 in Kladno, Czechoslovakia, now the Czech Republic..., so it is pure nonsense for this list to present his birthplace differently and state that he was born in the Czech Republic. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You do realise the USSR isn't a country but Russia is? One Night In Hackney  303  00:29, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I fully understand the structure of the USSR. Pardon me for not being incredibly precise in talk page comments.  My objection still stands.  Showing the flag of Kazakhstan, created in 1992, for a player born in the Kazakh SSR in 1980, is just wrong.  Either we fix the flags, or fix the "disclaimer" sentence(s) to explain what this list is trying to communicate.  — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * State, country, what's the big deal? I think you are missing the point he was trying to make, ONIH. But I also think Andrwsc is missing the point of that disclaimer (the rewrite is better, though). − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 00:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I understood the intent of the previous disclaimer, but the way it was written conveyed an entirely different message. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * See below, the disclaimer has to vary from one "country" to another. One Night In Hackney  303  01:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem is that the disclaimer needs to be two-handed. For example on one hand the HHOF uses what might be described as "traditional" regions (Ireland), it also uses "modern" ones (Serbia) when the only two people listed from Serbia weren't even alive when it existed as a recognised separate entity. One Night In Hackney  303  00:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Why not simply have the disclaimer state that the definition of country follows that of the Hockey Hall of Fame? Resolute 06:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I would simply get rid of the birth country notice and go with current country. The result? those born in the what is now 'Republic of Ireland' be listed under Republic of Ireland & flag, while those born in what is now Northern Ireland be listed under the United Kingdom & flag PS- those of Scotland, England & Wales also be listed under United Kingdom & flag. Again, skip the birth country & use the current country. GoodDay (talk) 16:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

PS- Riley is the only player born outside of what is now Northern Ireland. The rest go under the United Kingdom. GoodDay (talk) 16:40, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * So, you're planning to re-write history? In addition to everyone who isn't from Ireland you'll need to move (plenty of them!), you've either overlooked or are ignorant of one rather important fact. Before partition, people who from Ireland (other than Protestant extremists) didn't consider themselves to be "British" or from the "UK", and weren't even generally labelled as such by the British government. They were always Irish, so this revisionist attempt at history is most unwelcome. One Night In Hackney  303  19:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Like it or not, the whole of Ireland (from 1801 to 1927) was part of the United Kingdom. Anyways, that's my solution - furthermore bringing this Irish dispute to a hockey article has been disruptive. As a result, I depart this discussion. GoodDay (talk) 19:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you'll find every single one of my edits was to remove factually incorrect information. The "Northern Ireland" label was being added to several players who weren't born there, and quite possibly never lived there either. You also missed the point I just made in breathtakingly spectacular fashion. In contemporary terms people from Ireland during that time period were not labelled as being British or from the UK, they were labelled as Irish. Therefore it would be revisionist history in order to say there were anything else. Not only that, it would be tearing up the way that ice hockey ranks their own players. So exactly who's the disruptive ones here? The editors adding factually incorrect information or attempting to re-write history, or those who seek up to uphold facts and leave political POV out of it? I suggest you check the history of this article, it was fine until an editor claimed people who were born in Belfast in 1910 were born in Northern Ireland..... One Night In Hackney  303  19:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Not entirely true. It was inappropriate for the section header to link to Republic of Ireland for those six players.  I also think the "disclaimer" statement at the top of the list was poorly and inaccurately written, implying players were actually born in Serbia/Kazakhstan/Czech Republic/etc.
 * So instead of continuous bickering about this list, what do we do to fix it? I recommend removal of the flag icons altogether, and I recommend copy-edit of the introduction to reflect what is being shown here.  I have no problems with those six players being grouped together under Ireland (the island), and that matches the intent of the original HHOF source to group those six players together, but I would object to any presentation on this Wikipedia page that implies all these six players are associated with the modern-day state of the Republic of Ireland (despite what the HHOF site visually represents).  I've already had one crack at copy-editing the introduction, but I welcome any additional attempts since my edits are considered to be "nonsense" and "just a joke". — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Hardly my fault if the flag templates aren't set up properly.... One Night In Hackney  303  20:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Proposed disclaimer: Players are listed by their place of birth, relative to current political borders.


 * Absolutely not. One Night In Hackney  303  03:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thats somewhat of a non-sequiter. Nobody said this was your "fault", and how should the flag templates behave differently?  I reaffirm my previous request: let's please stop bickering and improve the article.  Sheesh.  — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Can we have some kind of 'consensus vote', 'straw poll', whatever on this dispute? Get an idea of who supports what? I'm not concerned about how this ends up - only that it ends. GoodDay (talk) 20:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Country-related issues with hockey articles on Wikipedia had just recently been resolved. Players born in the former Czechoslovakia are now split into players from the Czech Republic and players from Slovakia. The same applies to players from the former Soviet Union, the former Yugoslavia, East and West Germany, and any other nation that may have split or united since a player's birth. For applying the same standard to Ireland we are accused of rewriting history, as though we're members of The Party. Indeed Jagr was not born in the Czech Republic! But Kladno is located in what is now called the Czech Republic. Indeed Bobby Kirk was not born in Northern Ireland! But Belfast is located in what is now called Northern Ireland.

It doesn't matter if these Irish players would not consider themselves from Northern Ireland (though they were all from northern Ireland): This article isn't prescribing their nationality or citizenship, it is merely delineating their place of birth relative to current political borders. Besides, they are all dead; their choice has nothing to do with this article.

PS The article looks more boring without flags. If Jack Riley is from Northern Ireland then we should list him with the rest under the Ulster Banner; if he is from the Republic of Ireland then we make a new listing under the Irish Tricolour. Does anyone know where Berckenla is? − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 03:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The Ulster Banner isn't the flag of Northern Ireland, never has been. One Night In Hackney  303  03:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Let's face it, a long list of names and statistics is inherently boring. Flag icons won't change that.  — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 04:09, 24 January 2008 (UTC)




 * Erm, Jim McFadden, Bobby Kirk, and Sammy McManus are all from Ireland, not Northern Ireland, please learn history. One Night In Hackney  303  05:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Erm, please learn to read. Jim McFadden: "born April 15, 1920 in Belfast, Ireland"; Bobby Kirk: "Born in Belfast, Ireland"; Sammy McManus: "born October 22, 1911, Belfast, Ireland". Then familiarize yourself with Belfast: "Belfast (from the Irish: Béal Feirste meaning "Sandy ford at river mouth")[1] is the capital of Northern Ireland"  As previously stated, Jaromir Jagr is not said to be from Czechoslovakia; Nik Antropov is from Kazakhstan, Ruslan Salei is from Belarus, Evgeni Malkin is from Russia, NOT the Soviet Union, where they were all born.


 * Yes, and where was Belfast pre-partition? Ireland! As I said, please learn history. Take a look how the HHOF do things as well, seeing as it's them you're complaining about.... One Night In Hackney  303  06:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Ireland, pt. 2
It's getting tiring to scroll all the way up to edit, so here we go again. To continue...

They are from Northern Ireland in the same sense that Jaromir Jagr and Dominik Hasek are from the Czech Republic, or Sergei Fedorov and Pavel Bure are from Russia. The place they are from is now known as Northern Ireland or the Czech Republic or Russia. When they were born there it was known as Ireland, Czechoslovakia or the USSR. It's not that hard of a concept to understand. Kaiser matias (talk) 06:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I would advise not using names, its a violation of WP:ATTACK and is just plain unnecessary. It's alright to disagree, but don't start with the personal attacks. Remember, we are all striving to reach the same goals; some users have differing views of how to reach those goals, but you don't need to go attacking them. Kaiser matias (talk) 06:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank you for understanding. Kaiser matias (talk) 07:13, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

In response to ONIH's comment at 06:20, 24 January 2008: I know history, you've repeated that "learn history" slogan enough times for me to understand. As I said before, the article isn't prescribing their nationality or citizenship, it is not saying "they were born in Northern Ireland", it is merely delineating their place of birth relative to current' political borders. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 12:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Great, now let's have a Northern Ireland section & a Republic of Ireland section (though personally I'd prefer 'Northern Ireland, England, Scotland and Wales be grouped as 'United Kingdom'). GoodDay (talk) 14:28, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Erm no, check the HHOF page. You're not amending their method for political ends. One Night In Hackney  303  14:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The HHOF has Ireland as one region covering the entire country.--Padraig (talk) 14:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The "political regions" comment is false anyway, the HHOF use "current geographical regions" which are totally different. One Night In Hackney  303  14:33, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I give up, if you guys want to politize this article (an NHL article), enjoy yourselves. Yet another article to be used as an Irish battle ground on Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 14:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * This has nothing to do with politics, the article uses the HHOF uses Ireland for these players not Northern and Southern Ireland which didn't exist then, other editors are trying to change that distinction by using Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland which is wrong the players where born in Ireland, and this is easily solved by not using flags and leaving the link to Ireland as the link.--Padraig (talk) 14:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Comments: First off, given various gaffes and idiocies for which the HHOF is guilty (Bobby Hull being a "New York Ranger" on the strength of a couple European exhibition games years after his retirement being one), I see zero reason whatsoever to slavishly accept its nomenclature or position for the nationality of players, especially when wrong. Secondly, while breaking the UK into its component parts is something of a fad in international sport these days (and be damned if I can figure out why, because it's not as if Ontario or Massachusetts are going be allowed to field their own Olympic hockey teams any time soon, for example), I see no reason to adopt this fad either. I strongly advocate that "birth nationality" means just that: birth nationality ... which makes aberrations like Rod Langway = ROC go away. Furthermore, while birth places are given pre-border change (hence Sergei Fedorov being born in the USSR or Stan Mikita in Czechoslovakia), nationalities are not: Fedorov is listed as "Russian," while Mikita is listed as "Slovakian." Regardless of the various partisan POVs flying around, this makes matters relatively clear. Players born in present-day Ireland should be listed as Irish, while players born in present-day Northern Ireland should be listed as UK.  RGTraynor  16:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Do we have consensus?
Despite large amounts of talk page discussion, the article itself is relatively immune to edit-warring, which is commendable. Do we have consensus on the current version?

As I see it, here are the problems: y. As for the "dullness" imparted by flag icon removal, why not add colour by putting in photographs of individual players? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:19, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * At the top level, using flags (even historically accurate ones) to represent the birth location of anybody is strongly discouraged by Manual of style (flags). This trumps any specific argument against any individual flag.
 * The Ulster Banner flag cannot be used to represent the birthplace of anybody, whether or not they were born in Northern Ireland between 1922–present, 1922–1972, or even 1953–1972. It isn't appropriate.
 * The Irish tricolour cannot be used to represent the birthplace of anybody not born within the current Republic of Ireland (1922–). Equally, the tricolour cannot be used to represent the entire island, as it does not represent all of Northern Ireland, even in a de facto sense.  As has been pointed out many times, within Northern Ireland the Ulster Banner and Irish tricolour are each "symbols of part of a divided community", so there is no single flag (de facto or de jure) that can represent the entire island (as a geographic entity).
 * Similar problems exist for ex-Soviet Republics, former Czechoslovakia, former Yugoslavia, etc. Using the current flag of Kazakstan (created 1992) is not very accurate for a player born in the Kazakh SSR of the Soviet Union in 1980.  I understand what the Hall of Fame is trying to do by grouping players under Russia, Kazakhstan, Czech Republic, etc., and I think this can be made to work on Wikipedia most of the time — with the appropriate disclaimer.  On individual player articles, we say things like "Kladno, Czechoslovakia, now the Czech Republic".  Jaromir Jagr's infobox has "Kladno, Czechoslovakia" (with no flag) listed under "Born", but "Czech Republic" (with a flag icon) listed under "Nationality".  This is precisely the right approach! On list articles like this, a similar disclaimer is necessar
 * Therefore, with respect to this article, I think there are two choices:
 * Keep the players grouped as is currently shown, per the HHOF source. This necessitates flag removal (per the NPOV issues described), and requires a properly worded disclaimer.  I've tried to write something appropriate for the intro, but as ONiH stated, we actually need a "two-headed" disclaimer because Ireland doesn't fit under that concise description.  Therefore, I also added a second disclaimer specific for the Ireland section to clarify this group refers to the island, not just to one of the two nations on that island.
 * Reorganize the list to group England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland under a combined UK section. This might allow us to put flag icons back, but I wouldn't want to, per the MOS.  It would also make this list differ from the HHOF source.  Would there be original research issues by doing that?  Possibly.


 * 1 is obviously the way to go, retain the current method with tweaking for clarification. One Night In Hackney  303  17:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Option #2 is obviously the way to go, use the United Kingdom & Republic of Ireland, after all Belfast has been a part of the UK since 1801. GoodDay (talk) 17:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The HHOF don't do that, stop inventing countries. One Night In Hackney  303  18:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * At your request ONIH, I won't contact you at your 'personal page' anymore. I forgive you though. GoodDay (talk) 18:24, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No one "invented" anything; the UK and the Republic of Ireland are both internationally recognized sovereign states.   RGTraynor  18:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess I didn't really say, but I am in favor of option 1, which is more or less the current version. I think the list should be alphabetized, and I would welcome any additional copy-editing to the two disclaimers (ensuring they remain somewhat concise), and I would like to see some player photos as images.  — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:11, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Option #1 as per ONIH & Andrwsc current method with modification for clarification. --Domer48 (talk) 18:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Here's the deal...at the time of the partition, Jim McFadden was 1 year old, Bobby Kirk was 11, and Sammy McManus was 10. None of them ever played in the NHL as a representative of the Republic of Ireland. They were born in Belfast, Ireland, but lived the largest majority of their life in Belfast, Northern Ireland. Option #2 is certainly the correct solution. Any current player with the nationality of Belarus, Russia, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Latvia, or Lithuania was born in the Soviet Union, and spent more time as a Soviet than the Irish players lived pre-partition. It's an inconsistency on behalf of the HHOF and us here at Wikipedia to separate these former Soviet Republics into their current countries but not do the same for Ireland. Grsz11 (talk) 19:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * "but lived the largest majority of their life in Belfast, Northern Ireland" - quite wrong, in fact demonstrably so. For example Sammy McManus moved to Canada at a "young age" and was skating for the Toronto Canoe Club in 1928. Even assuming that he emigrated the same year (unlikely) that would mean he spent about eleven years of his life living in Ireland and (assuming he was still living in Belfast or similar which you can't prove) and about six years of his life living in Northern Ireland. Sorry, what were you saying about "largest majority" again? One Night In Hackney  303  19:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Also, there should be no question whatsoever that Owen Nolan and Sid Finney belong in a Northern Ireland category, as they only home country they have ever known was post-partition, being born in 1929 and 1972.Grsz11 (talk) 19:17, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Quick note - anyone in favour of the second option should realise it results in the removal of 18 names from the list, so it's hardly improving the article is it? One Night In Hackney 303  19:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Option #1' As per ONiH. BigDunc (talk) 19:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * There is no discussion involving Owen Nolan and Sid Fenney. There is no question that they were born in Northern Ireland. You have no justification to revert my edit, so do not do so in the future. Grsz11 (talk) 19:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * This discussion covers all the players. You have no justification for the change you are making, this discussion is to find the way forward. One Night In Hackney  303  19:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Why not just add "(born in Northern Ireland)" to Nolan and Fenney? Completely NPOV then.  BLACK KITE  19:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Are you planning on doing the same to everyone born under a different jurisdiction? One Night In Hackney  303  19:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * "All players are listed by the current country of the players' birth location, regardless of their citizenship, following Hockey Hall of Fame convention" Grsz11 (talk) 19:43, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * That's the point.  BLACK KITE  19:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The point is the disclaimer needs rewording. Here is the actual one, which reads "Note: players are categorized by birthplace based on current geographical regions, not citizenship" - Ireland is the geographical region. One Night In Hackney  303  19:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The island of Ireland doesn't deserve special treatment. GoodDay (talk) 19:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Aye, but do you see the problem? In that case, we could merge the English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish players into a category called "British Isles". That's a geographical region too.  And you can imagine the furore that'd cause.  BLACK KITE  19:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Or we could just stick with the way the HHOF do things, with adequate disclaimer? One Night In Hackney  303  19:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * And how long would that stay stable, given the current editing pattern? I'm trying to find an acceptable compromise here.  BLACK KITE  19:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The article was fine for months until an editor decided to change HHOF convention and move people who weren't born in Northern Ireland into a new section. Since then it's been a non-stop discussion with people who aren't aware of various points of Irish history, or even the history of the people they are talking about, eg claims that Sammy McManus spent the largest majority of his life living in Northern IReland. One Night In Hackney  303  20:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally, I'd agree, but the problem is that many people reading the article would assume that someone under the "Ireland" section was Irish. It's misleading, hence the discussion here.  BLACK KITE  20:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll accept two sections - Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 19:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Exactly, ONiH, current region. The current region containing Belfast is Northern Ireland and not Ireland. All this individuals were born in the United Kingdom. We are affording some freedom to give each constituent country it's own category.  The current geopolitical regions are Scotland, Wales, England, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.  Grsz11 (talk) 19:55, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Do you understand what a geographical region is? Clue - Northern Ireland isn't one, but Ireland is. Northern Ireland is a political region, not a geographical one. One Night In Hackney  303  19:56, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Let's use two sections: Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland. What's this hangup about dividing the Ireland section? GoodDay (talk) 19:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You don't even need to divide it, just make it clear that it includes players born in Northern Ireland. What the best way to do that is, is another question.  BLACK KITE  20:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Why are geographical regions even relevant? Should we have a category simply for North America, as that is the geographical region containing both the United States and Canada. Europe is a geographical region that should include every player from every European country, because your geographical regions have no borders. Grsz11 (talk) 20:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * IMHO, the island of Ireland was divided in real life. Surely, we can do the same in this 'hockey article', can we? GoodDay (talk) 20:06, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * OK. How about we just add to the "includes all players born on the island of Ireland", the phrase "(including Northern Ireland) ".  I'd see that as a fairly good compromise.  BLACK KITE  20:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

None of these players were born in the independent Republic of Ireland. They are all part of United Kingdom, whether they were born in pre-partition Ireland or post-partition Northern Ireland. There is no reason why this category should be the only described on geographical terms. Grsz11 (talk) 20:12, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Which bring me back to earlier - Why should the island of Ireland be given special treatment. GoodDay (talk) 20:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * "includes all players born on the island of Ireland" is all that is required, why is it necessary to include anything else.--Padraig (talk) 20:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * If we do that, then we'll have to combine the 'former Soviet' sections, the former Czechoslovakia sections & top them off with born in the USSR, born in Czechoslovakia. GoodDay (talk) 20:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Why is it so important to abide by the HHOF's convention? Ever since discussion has swung toward changing the disclaimer to something independent of the HHOF, something which would differentiate between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, ONIH has failed to catch on, and continues to argue for the "geographical region" disclaimer. However, "geographical region" is not a well-defined term. My back yard is a geographical region; Eurasia is a geographical region. A disclaimer of this sort is bound to lead to disputes about what constitutes an acceptable "geographical region". Let's create our own convention: by place of birth, relative to current political borders. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 20:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * So your happy to use HHOF statics for the list, but not how they set them out, in a attempt to politalise the article.--Padraig (talk) 20:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I got this funny feeling we'll have to reorganize the article, have it as 'continential' sections North America, Europe, Asia etc. GoodDay (talk) 20:23, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * And then User:One Night In Volgograd (fictional) will begin a dispute about where exactly Europe and Asia are divided. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 20:29, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That'll leave us with just 'one' section - Earth. GoodDay (talk) 20:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Its rather tragic to see so much troubles come out of an article I particularily enjoy. Such a simple article, yet the cause of so much issue. Kaiser matias (talk) 20:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The dispute of Northern Ireland on Wikipedia, has poisoned alot of articles & their discussion pages. GoodDay (talk) 20:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * This have nothing to do with that dispute.--Padraig (talk) 20:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * If HHOF statistics are being used why change there convention? BigDunc (talk) 20:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Because the HHOF labeling is flawed. You can't recategorize one nationality and not do it to the others, as is done with the Soviet republics and Czechoslovakia. You can't base on thing on geography and everything else on borders. I would be okay with a Northern Ireland category containing only Owen Nolan and Sid Finney, as they were both born post-partition and were only ever nations of the constituent country of Northern Ireland, part of the United Kingdom. With regards to the others, they could be kept under Ireland in general, but the link should not direct to the Republic of Ireland, but I don't think it does now. Grsz11 (talk) 22:05, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Ireland Final Solution
I'd like to propose a solution to end this because it has really gotten out of hand. There is no reason to categorize Ireland by geographical terms. This is not done in other situations; there exist categories for Wales, Scotland and England, even though all of these are part of the geographical region of Great Britain. The HHOF distinguishes here, but fails to do so with Ireland. As I stated before Sid Finney (1929) and Owen Nolan (1972) were both born in the United Kingdom's constituent country of Northern Ireland after the Government of Ireland Act 1920 that created Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. As it is clearly a heated political matter where the other players belong, the category of "Ireland" can stay, with no disclaimer. I'd like to put it to a vote. Grsz11 (talk) 22:15, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Support of course. GoodDay (talk) 22:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Support Let's end this nonsense and get back to doing something that actually improves Wikipedia, rather than drag it down and waste everyone's time. Kaiser matias (talk) 23:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Object No valid reason for deviation from HHOF convention. One Night In Hackney  303  23:36, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Here is one reason: This is Wikipedia, not the Hockey Hall of Fame. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 14:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Object As mentioned above if HHOF statistics are being used why change there convention? ONIH has also pointed out there is no valid reason for this deviation from HHOF.--Domer48 (talk) 00:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * These are every-day, run-of-the-mill NHL statistics, not statistics reserved exclusively by the Hockey Hall of Fame. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 14:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Support as long as nobody tries to slap a flag onto Northern Ireland. If so, then oppose.  — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There'll be no flag for Northern Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 00:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Object as per ONIH above.--Padraig (talk) 01:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Support: To claim there is "no valid reason" for "deviating from HHOF procedure" is both facile and facetious. Obviously there are perfectly valid reasons to do so, not the least of which is this whole argument, largely pushed by outsiders to the Wikiproject.  Beyond that, I was not aware that the HHOF had any noteworthy expertise in geopolitics, nor that Wikipedia was compelled to subordinate fact to the opinion of a private organization's webmaster.    RGTraynor  06:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well put. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 14:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Right on, RG. GoodDay (talk) 17:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Appallingly put, the WikiProject doesn't own this article, contrary to your comment about "largely pushed by outsiders to the Wikiproject". The fact is the so-called outsiders haven't recommended any drastic changes to this article, in fact the WikiProject members have shown themselves to be oblivious of simple facts. One Night In Hackney  303  22:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No, the project doesn't own the article, of course, but seeing the many thousands of bytes of heat generated over an issue that is startlingly petty, startlingly obvious and long since covered by consensus practice, it's hard to ignore GoodDay's contention that this is just the newest Troubles-related partisan battleground on Wikipedia. The "facts," sir, include that Northern Ireland has been part of the UK since the Act of Union, hasn't been a sovereign entity for many centuries (nor, in truth, ever was), is no more eligible to be treated as such as are Michigan or Saskatchewan, and that the curious premise that the Hockey Hall of Fame somehow has the last word on issues of national sovereignty is nowhere part of Wikipedia policy or guideline.  These aren't even debatable.    RGTraynor  10:33, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. Per RG. Should we also state that Craig Adams was born on Borneo and Claude Vilgrain was born on Hispaniola?  Patken4 (talk) 22:00, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Temporary edit (worth a try)
As per the other Troubles-related articles, a "!vote" here may struggle to achieve consensus. I have added "includes Northern Ireland" as per above to the article as a method of at least moving towards some sort of wording that may be appropriate to both "sides". This may get reverted; but I hope not. At least the discussion can continue whilst the article is not in The Wrong Version (TM) for all editors. Please message me with any concerns. Thanks,  BLACK KITE  00:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You have put Includes all players born on the island of Ireland, including Northern Ireland. Can you not see the contradiction that in the Northern Ireland is not seperate from the Island of Ireland, therefore anyone born in Ireland wether north or south was born on the island of Ireland.--Padraig (talk) 01:29, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * And Ireland isn't a country, so can't be addressed as such in the context of this article. The title of the article is "List of National Hockey League statistical leaders by country", and not "List of NHL statistical leaders by geographical region of origin" Grsz11 (talk) 01:33, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * No contradiction - just making it clear. NPOV.  BLACK KITE  01:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Where does it state or claim it is a country, Ireland is a island, Northern Ireland is part of Ireland, why are you insisting on politicalising this article.--Padraig (talk) 01:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It is a contradiction.--Padraig (talk) 01:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not the politicization that's the problem - read your talk page.  BLACK KITE  02:00, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * "Irelands" is how the HHOF classifies it. I removed it since we obviously cant decide yet. Grsz11 (talk) 01:57, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Includes all players born on the island of Ireland is non political and factual and the way the HHOF lists them, adding including Northern Ireland''. is a attempt to politicalise the issue, Northern Ireland is and remain part of the Island of Ireland, it is not a separate island. We are attempting to find a consensus here and all proposed changes should be discussed here and agreed here first before they are added to the article.--Padraig (talk) 02:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Last attempt

 * 1) Remove subtitle from "Irelands" section.
 * 2) Replace "Irelands" with pre-partition Ireland and Northern Ireland . This covers all the facts - all the relevant players are covered by this.  I can see no possible POV reason to oppose.  Reasons had better be good :)  BLACK KITE  02:14, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

You are making this too political. We don't need to say "Russia, formerly the Soviet Union" and don't need to say all this. All we need is [[Ireland and Northern Ireland. Grsz11 (talk) 02:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * No, because then we get into a circular argument about current and former countries and geographic regions. That version I've outlined above covers factually and exactly where every player on that list was born.  BLACK KITE  02:20, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * why do you think its necessary to separate Northern Ireland, people from Northern Ireland are Irish wether or not they regard themselves to be British subjects or not.--Padraig (talk) 02:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Padraig, you know very well why it's necessary to separate them.  We've got BLP concerns to begin with, without anything else to worry about. Don't go down that route, please.  BLACK KITE  02:24, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Well Padraig, the almight HHOF separates Wales, Scotland and England...so for that reason. Grsz11 (talk) 02:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Because England Scotland and Wales are different countries, Northern Ireland is a province within the UK it is not a country.--Padraig (talk) 02:49, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Northern Ireland is indeed a constituent country within the UK. Just look at the opening sentence of the Northern Ireland page. Kaiser matias (talk) 02:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Then please feel free to edit the article for constituent countries because it, along with the rest of the world, states the England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are all members of the greater entity that is the United Kingdom. I'm not sure where you think you can get the upper hand in this when the facts are all against you. Even if what you said is true, then there still would be no justification for eliminating the Northern Ireland category. Grsz11 (talk) 05:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * What would you know about facts? Let's see:
 * The current region containing Belfast is Northern Ireland and not Ireland - no, it's still in Ireland. Always has been, and probably always will be.
 * Jim McFadden lived the largest majority of his life in Northern Ireland - no, he didn't.
 * Jim McFadden, Bobby Kirk and Sammy McManus are all from Northern Ireland - no, they are all from Ireland.
 * Jim McFadden, Bobby Kirk and Sammy McManus are all from Northern Ireland whether I like it or not - again no, they are all from Ireland.
 * The only person who seems to struggle with facts is yourself. One Night In Hackney  303  22:16, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is NOT a place for you to push your political views. You have showed no previous interest in hockey articles before this incident, making it clear that your only intention is to push your opinions into this article, a place where they do not belong. Grsz11 (talk) 02:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


 * How funny, considering I'm one of the people advocating the least change to this article from its prior format, ie before I even edited it. You've already shown how ignorant you are of facts, please don't compound it by professing to have even the slighest knowledge of my politicial views. One Night In Hackney  303  02:31, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Wrong again. Those of us against you wish to return it to the way it was before you it was edited. We even attempted to compromise, offering you 4 out of the 6 names to be listed under Ireland. Grsz11 (talk) 02:38, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Afraid not One Night In Hackney  303  02:51, 26 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I corrected myself. The point is this has gotten way further than it should have.  You know full well that Northern Ireland is indepedent and cannot be categorized the same. Grsz11 (talk) 03:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm with RGTraynor (who agrees with my earlier idea) - since the sections are given today names? make two sections: United Kingdom and Republic of Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 03:10, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

We have ran into a major inconsistency here. To say that Ireland is an acceptable way to categorize those who have never been a national of the country of Ireland is completely and entirely wrong. As has been stated several times before, we do not list Jaromir Jagr as being from Czechloslovakia and do not say Russian players are from the Soviet Union. Grsz11 (talk) 03:27, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Point of clarification: Ireland is the article about the island. The article about the nation is at Republic of Ireland.  It's a common mistake to not realize this and confuse the two.  Many, many times have I changed wikilinks for   to , where it is obvious that the nation is being referenced.  Note that template:flag does this automatically.  — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 03:59, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That is exactly it. To have that category link to a geographical region while every other one links to a political entity is inconsistent and wrong. Players born before the Government of Ireland Act 1920 were nationals of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, while players born after are nationals of the United Kingdom, which we afford the right to be recognized as being from either England, Wales, Scotland, or Northern Ireland. Those players are even in a category, [[Category:Northern Irish ice hockey players]|Northern Irish ice hockey players]  The nation that should be referenced when referring to pre-partition born players from the counties that did not secede from the UK is Northern Ireland, as is the norm with players born in other countries that have since changed (see Jaromir Jagr, Sergei Federov, Miroslav Satan, and Ruslan Fedotenko). Out of the 6 players on the Ireland list, 2 are certainly from [[Northern Ireland]], 3 were born in Belfast before the partition, and 1 is inconclusive.  There pretty much isn't much else I can say.  The facts are right there for everybody to see.  We even offered to leave the pre-partition players in the Ireland list, but still met opposition.  I've made all concessions and am trying to appeal for arbitration.  Grsz11 (talk) 04:27, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, ok, I understand that you understand! Your comment To say that Ireland is an acceptable way to categorize those who have never been a national of the country of Ireland... seemed to imply otherwise.  Carry on.  — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 04:31, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

List by today countries
Since we've got sections Russia, Czech Republic, Slovakia etc. Let's have United Kingdom as one section,  Republic of Ireland as another section. Come on peoples, let's put this Troubles related dispute to an end. This is a hockey article first & foremost. GoodDay (talk) 16:37, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
 * With the possible exception of Jack Riley, there isn't anyone who was born in what is presently the Republic of Ireland. So we may not need a list for it.  And until we can figure out where he was born, we shouldn't have it in the list.  The town Riley was born in is either spelled Berckenla, Berkenla, or Berckenia, according to all the hockey books and websites I've seen.  Searching Yahoo and Google finds nothing of help.  Searching List of towns in the Republic of Ireland/2002 Census Records and List of villages in Northern Ireland doesn't help.  Patken4 (talk) 03:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I would say its not a town or village but a name for a local area which is why its not showing in the cencus or lists, through none of those spellings seem very Irish to me.--Padraig (talk) 13:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

According to Jack Riley article, his birth place Berckenla is in what's today the 'Republic of Ireland'. Therefore, we put Riley in a section Republic of Ireland (as again we want the 'today' country). The rest go under United Kingdom. -- GoodDay (talk) 16:23, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't agree with a United Kingdom section, as it would mean deleting names from this list. Each of the other constituent countries has their own section, and it's not hurting anything, as this is how they are generally refered to. I'm of Scottish ancestry, but wouldn't say I'm British.  Therefore all we have to do is have a Republic of Ireland section for Jack Riley and a Northern Ireland section for everybody else. Grsz11(talk) 17:35, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem, I can live with that. GoodDay (talk) 21:44, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I've added to the disclaimer 'Republic of Ireland' as it appears Riley was born in what is now the ROI. If any one can get full confirmation of this, please do. PS - If anyone disagrees with my edit? simply remove it (I won't protest). GoodDay (talk) 23:14, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Breach of the agreed guideline at WP:IMOS, which the previous version with disclaimer wasn't. People from pre-partition Ireland are not listed as being from Northern Ireland. One Night In Hackney  303  23:55, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Can you point this out? I'm having trouble finding it on that page. Grsz11 (talk) 03:21, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

What next?
Let's try a different tack in order to find a compromise everybody can live with. Please describe your "non-negotiable" concerns for this list. Hopefully, everybody has enough "don't care" items that we can figure out how to solve the problem.

For me: If we keep flags off the page, the first two points are moot.
 * 1) The Ulster Banner cannot be used under any circumstances on this list to represent Northern Ireland.
 * 2) The Irish Tricolour cannot be used to represent the island of Ireland; it can only represent the Republic of Ireland.
 * 3) If all six players born on the island of Ireland are grouped together, nothing should imply that this group represents the current Republic of Ireland. An unadorned wikilink to Ireland is not sufficient, since that frequently (yet incorrectly) is assumed to mean the country, not the island.
 * 4) If we continue to group by the current nations of Czech Republic, Russia, Serbia, etc., then we must have a properly worded introduction that explains this.

My "don't care" items:
 * 1) I don't care if we group the six Ireland (island) born players together or split them into two sections.
 * 2) I don't care if we use flags or not, subject to the two "non-negotiable" points I have.

Hope this helps... — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:11, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I think we should separate Northern Ireland and the Republic. Jack Riley should go with the Republic, the other five under Northern Ireland.  If we won't use the Ulster Banner, we shouldn't use any flags (mostly because it would look strange to have the flags of all countries but one).  In addition, I suggest we change Taiwan to Republic of China for Rod Langway.  The Taiwan article directs to an article on the island itself, while the country is called the Republic of China.  Does anyone have an issue with this?  Patken4 (talk) 02:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for bringing that up (Taiwan), I hadn't noticed that before. I'll address Andrwsc points:


 * 1) If Northern Ireland can't decide on a flag, we shouldn't do it for them, so I agree there.
 * 2) Agree again. Ireland is a island, not a nation, and does not have a flag.
 * 3) From Republic of Ireland: "The term Republic of Ireland (Irish: Poblacht na hÉireann) is the description of the State but not its name." To me, this means that it is to be referred to as Ireland.  My problem is that this category was a geographical region, whereas each other category was a country.
 * 4) I think the last statement before the TOC that states: "All players are listed by the current country of the players' birth location" would suffice to do what you want. Grsz11 (talk) 05:56, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * For me:
 * People born in Northern Ireland prior to partition cannot be described as being from Northern Ireland, per WP:IMOS.
 * Similarly, people born in the Republic of Ireland prior to partition cannot be described as being from the Republic of Ireland, per WP:IMOS.
 * A simple clarifier is added to the "Ireland(s)" section stating something like "Includes people born in Ireland (pre-partition) and Northern Ireland" which covers all the bases.
 * No flags.
 * Can't think of anything I'm not particularly bothered about. One Night In Hackney  303  22:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Again, we are not saying these players are from Northern Ireland, we are simply saying that the place they were born is now within Northern Ireland. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 00:50, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And again, I can't see the relevant statements in WP:IMOS Grsz11 (talk) 22:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe ONIH is referring to WP:IMOS? But if so, that rule wouldn't apply to this situation. Firstly, the scope of that rule covers introductions to Irish towns, villages, and "other types of articles". This seemingly means other Ireland-related articles that mention where something or someone is from. Secondly, this rule only helps to distinguish between Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, since the latter is commonly called the former. This rule solves confusion problems and standardization problems. The issue at hand, however, is that we are stating "person X was born in a town that is now found in Northern Ireland". As you can plainly see, the rule neither has this article in its scope, nor would the rule apply to this article anyway. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 00:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Now that's more like it, seperate sections Northern Ireland & Republic of Ireland. Congradulations people. GoodDay (talk) 23:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Reverted, breach of concensus on WP:IMOS. You are not describing people born pre-partition as being from Northern Ireland, per this and this. It's factually inaccurate, and offensive. One Night In Hackney  303  00:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Then please explain how the Manual of Style is relevant here. Grsz11 (talk) 00:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * IMOS deals with everything related to Ireland in articles. One Night In Hackney  303  08:01, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I depart (again) for another while. Sigh, just when I thought this dispute was resolved. GoodDay (talk) 01:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You know something people? I am so contemptious of having a sports article poisoned by politics? That I think this article should be deleted altogether. If its criteria won't be respected, then the article is crippled & should be put out of it's misery. GoodDay (talk) 02:54, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Well stop trying to poison it then. Those of us that object to people born pre-partition being descirbed as born in Northern Ireland are sticking to facts. Look at the HHOF, they sort exactly the same way as you're complaining against. One Night In Hackney  303  08:01, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Again, again, again, ONIH, we are not saying these people were born in Northern Ireland. We are saying the place they were born (Belfast, for most of them), is located in what is now called Northern Ireland. I don't understand how you still cannot understand this simple concept. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 17:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And I don't understand how you fail to see how offensive it is to describe someone as being from a country they were not born in. You wouldn't do it with Israel, I can assure you! One Night In Hackney  303  17:05, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Change the criteria of this article (to accomadate Ireland) or delete the article. GoodDay (talk) 15:09, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm tired of this. This is just pathetic. As long as it stays how it is right now (separate Northern Ireland for those two), I really dont care any more. This isnt about being consistent with the HHOF (this is Wikipedia, not the HHOF), it's purely political and has just become more irritating than it's worth. I'm done with this article, but I will revert edits that remove Northern Ireland. Grsz11 (talk) 16:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Seeing as this article is about NHL players, the NHLPA official website uses Northern Ireland. Therefore, Northern Ireland must remain. GoodDay (talk) 16:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * What does NHLPA have to do with anything? The official NHL site uses Ireland for Owen Nolan, but I bet you won't change your scratched record now will you? One Night In Hackney  303  17:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * THe NHLPA has just as much clout as the NHL. Anyways, see my compromise below. GoodDay (talk) 17:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Do the WikiProject Irish Republicanism contingent have a problem with the current revision, or do we have to keep the POV tag on this list? The two players born in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland are listed under Northern Ireland, and the four players born in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland are listed under Ireland. Is that not sufficient to satisfy everybody? I would hope so. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * It wasn't any project member who placed the tag in the first place, but someone who doesn't understand facts. There's plenty of them about.... One Night In Hackney  303  17:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That didn't answer my question — are you, or any of your friends, satisfied with the current version of this list? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm willing to compromise -- Have Owen Nolan under Northern Ireland, keep the rest under Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 17:10, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Also Sid Finney (born 1929), but yes, that is the version I am asking about. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:13, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * That makes no sense! And I've no issue, other than the disclaimer still needs changing.... One Night In Hackney  303  17:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * We've got two sources (NHLPA & NHL), let's use them both. GoodDay (talk) 17:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, we're onto something then. It makes perfect sense with respect to those two sections (historically accurate, NPOV, etc.) so we just need to craft an introductory sentence that describes ALL that we have on this page (also including the Soviet-born players listed under the current nations, for example). — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll go along with that. GoodDay (talk) 17:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The only player I can find on the NHLPA site is Nolan anyway. One Night In Hackney  303  17:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * NHLPA lists only active NHL players. GoodDay (talk) 17:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * So, you're using it why? The only person it affects is a person who I've no problem with being described as from Northern Ireland. Is there some reason you're being obtuse? One Night In Hackney  303  17:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with putting Owen Nolan (born post partition) in a Northern Ireland section? While putting the others in an Ireland section. GoodDay (talk) 17:27, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Absolutely nothing, providing you're including Sid Finney as well. That's what's happening now, and I've already said I've no problem with it. One Night In Hackney  303  17:31, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Finally, the Ireland dispute has been resolved. GoodDay (talk) 17:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)