Talk:List of NWA World Heavyweight Champions/archive 1

Need to distinguish
I think we need to distinguish between recognizing a champion and the NWA World champion.

This page is supposed to refer to whoever is recognized as champion by the National Wrestling Alliance... there are other places, I think, to discuss the various splinters, mergers, and inconsistencies in the various World titles over the years. So I'm thinking this needs to be edited back and the discussion moved to another page. -- Robster2001 04:07, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

The above-mentioned cleanup was done in February 2006. -- Robster2001 13:44, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Un-official Title Reigns
The unofficial title reigns need to be removed, or at least not counted toward the total title reigns. The Carlos Colon title reign for example, it's been well known that Colon was not gonna be the champion and they only had him beat Flair to avoid a riot. Dusty Rhodes title win as The Midnight Rider, Bobo Brazils title reign, them and all the other unofficial ones should not count.

HULK HOGAN was never officially an NWA champ. There a dozens of results like this one including one by Lord Alfred Hayes which the NWA mever recognized. This needs to be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.205.40.112 (talk) 00:36, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I've removed them, none of those men officially held the belt and unlike Antonio Inoki's situation in WWF nobody considers them champions. TJ Spyke 03:35, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't remember ever seeing anything about Bobo Brazil's reign. On the other hand, something did happen with Bruno Sammartino that was the same thing mentioned.

http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/nwa/nwahist.htm


 * I'll add Bruno's name to the history, noting that it was neither recognized by the NWA nor Bruno himself. - Parsonsburg
 * The reference provided contains a virus, and may not be accessable to many users. I suggest finding a different source. Edward Hyena

Why is Flair's 1993 win over Barry Windham not recognized as an official title change? I know the Rude win over Flair that Sept isn't recognized, but not quite sure why Flair's win over Windham isn't recognized?WarEagleRK 01:04, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I have no idea. Add it. - Parsonsburg

Kurt Angle's reign
TNA Wresting continues to recognize the NWA World Heavyweight Championship. Until it is mentioned on TV that they have new belts, I say that Kurt Angle's reign should be noted, but also mentioning that the NWA does not recognize his reign (only TNA). --Raderick 03:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * But it's totally pointless if NWA doesn't recognize him. It might as well be me saying "I'm the NWA Champion, even though NWA doesn't recognize it." The title Kurt Angle holds is sanctioned by TNA, not NWA, so it's moot to mention Cage's loss here. Jeff Silvers 03:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * But then what championship does Angle hold, is the biggest question? He's not the TNA World champion, because they don't have a championship yet, and he's physcially holding the NWA World Heavyweight Championship. TNA considers him the NWA World Heavyweight Championship. That's why I think it should be noted that he's the holder of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship, but only TNA recognize him as such, not the NWA. --Raderick 04:59, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know if this matters but Dave Meltzer on his site said that Angle won the NWA Title and it will be decided tonight on what is the future of the NWA belt, which we all know but TNA will do something at the Impact tapings. Airr233 13:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * On second thought, it probably would be a good thing to at least mention that TNA announced Angle as the NWA World Heavyweight Champion. We should treat it the same way we do Flair's "unofficial" reigns. Jeff Silvers 16:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Since Flair's "unofficial reigns" are listed, shouldn't Angle's be listed as unofficial as well in his own spot like all of Flair's unofficial victors? Airr233 20:00, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The situation with Angle is a little trickier. With Flair, the unofficial title changes always resulted in his winning back the title eventually, thus not breaking continuity.  If we just placed Angle's win in the table in the same way we did Flair's, it would make it appear as though Angle lost the title to whomever the NWA crowns as the new champion this summer.  I'm pretty satisfied with the way his "reign" is treated right now (he receives a footnote at the bottom), but if somebody can find a way to include it in the table without making things too confusing, I'd be all for that. Jeff Silvers 21:22, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Leave it until Impact is probably the best bet.
 * I changed the page to reflect this: http://www.tnawrestling.com/info/history/tnaworldpreview.html MC511 21:19, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Their public page now: http://www.tnawrestling.com/info/history/tnaworldtitle.html MC511 02:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The NWA does not acknowledge Angle's reign. The NWA's official website clearly states that Christian Cage was stripped of the title on 05/13/07 Nightmare SE 15:01, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Kurt Angle never has been, nor will he ever be the NWA World Heavyweight Champion. His win on May 13, 2007 was clearly for the TNA World Heavyweight Championship, NOT the NWA World Heavyweight Championship. Certain people simply need to get a clue and stop attaching Kurt Angle's name to the legacy that is the NWA World Heavyweight Championship. -Parsonsburg


 * It's an unofficial reign, just like other unofficial reigns. 70.68.62.143 18:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * YES, and we must choose to recognize this unofficial reign just like the others. If we don't, then why do we recognize the other ones?  We can't be biased, that's BS.  You can't change history. MC511 19:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It's neither official or unofficial; at no time during the match was the NWA World Heavyweight Championship on the line. At no time during the match was the NWA World Heavyweight Champion even in the match, because it was declared vacant at noon on May 13, 2007, almost 10 hours prior to the match.  What part of this are you failing to understand? -Parsonsburg
 * Parsonburg, actually, Christian Cage was billed as "NWA Heavyweight Champion of the World" during in-ring introductions. Angle however was announced as being the new Heavyweight Champion of the World, no NWA in the announcement, no TNA in the announcement.  Like MC511 is saying, this change should at least be noted as unofficial on the history page because TNA is currently recognizing it as an NWA Championship reign, and this change happened on pay-per-view, with thousands of witnesses.  It can't just not be on the page. TonyFreakinAlmeida 23:49, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sunday, May 13, 2007 -- Team 3D successfully defended the NWA World Tag Team Titles against LAX and Scott Steiner & Tomko in their last day as champions. Christian Cage lost the NWA World Heavyweight Title to Kurt Angle, in a Three-Way bout that also involved Sting.  TNA had the rights to use the NWA World Titles however they wanted until midnight of that night, so TNA made Kurt Angle the champion.  NWA and TNA severed their business relationship later that evening; NWA World Heavyweight Championship is stripped and replaced with the new TNA World Heavyweight Championship. A tournament would then begin to crown a new NWA World Heavyweight Champion under the National Wrestling Alliance.  Kurt Angle is recognized by TNA as a former NWA World Heavyweight Champion, but not officially by the National Wrestling Alliance because they released a pretaped segment on their website where they "stripped" Christian Cage and Team 3D of their respective NWA Titles, a video clip that was taped before the "Sacrifice" Pay-Per-View.  NWA had no idea that TNA were going to do one last title change that evening, so the NWA chose to ignore the title change, and in turn everyone on the Internet is now calling Christian Cage a former TNA World Heavyweight Champion, when in fact he is not, nor is Angle a 2-time TNA World Champion.  Kurt Angle is a former unofficial NWA World Heavyweight Champion, and the first ever TNA World Heavyweight Champion, as of June 17, 2007 at Slammiversary.  Calling Christian the first TNA Champion is really ridiculous, because that's just made up history, and it gets really confusing because that history never happened on TV, or mentioned anywhere on TNAwrestling.com. MC511 02:04, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This also happened on a Pay-Per-View viewed by thousands of people, so it is note worthy. MC511 22:13, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow this is f'ing stupid that we can't even recognize an unofficial reign that TNA puts right in their title history. For pete's sake, it was marked as unofficial. I didn't know there was a definition for official unofficial title reigns. TonyFreakinAlmeida 00:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

ya this is retarted, for the love of god just recognize it.--Tboneangle123 05:02, 8 July 2007 (UTC) 100% agreed. 70.68.62.143 02:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * A promotion claims one of its wrestlers was the champion of another organizations belt and you want us to include it? If ROH claimed that Austin Aries was WWE Champion, would you want us to inlcude Aries on the List of WWE Champions page? Lrrr IV 06:53, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The main argument for keeping Angle in the legacy of this great championship is that TNA claims that he is a former NWA World Heavyweight Champion. Also bear in mind that this is the same promotion that also claims that Kurt Angle is the current IWGP World Heavyweight Champion, yet Yuji Nagata (who is still the reigning champion) won the belt back in April of this year. You cannot take TNA seriously when it comes to what they claim, because they haven't had a clue for years. The only relation that Angle's IWGP belt has to NJPW is that it was the third design of the championship that was stripped from then-Champion Brock Lesnar, who simply refused to return it and defended it at the debut IGF show as the IWGP Third Belt Championship. - Parsonsburg

I concede on this as TNA is now acknowledging Angle as a 7-time world champion on their Victory Road commercials, but these stupid arguments saying "oh that's like ROH claiming Aries won the WWE title in their promotion". No, it's nothing like that at all. The NWA title was in TNA for almost 5 years and that match at Sacrifice was advertised and promoted even during ring introductions as an NWA World's title match, and right now via TNA's title history, they call Angle's victory an NWA title win, but like I just typed, they're having conflicts of interest at the moment with this piece of history and are only calling him a 7-time world champion on television commercials. The scenarios, arguments presented above are in no way comparable to this scenario where the NWA title gained most of it's notoriety through it's promotion in Total Non-stop Action since June 2002. My point was valid, the match was promoted as an NWA title match, while TNA didn't have control of the title's booking anymore, many people would probably see it as an unofficial reign that at least shouuld have been noted, but now whoever makes the small creative decisions with title lineages in the company, obviously now conflicts with the web site. TonyFreakinAlmeida 15:37, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm a little confused by your quote, so I must ask: are you actually suggesting that the NWA World Heavyweight Championship gained most of its notoriety through TNA? - Parsonsburg
 * Since 2002, yes. TNA was it's vehicle back into the mainstream after a pretty long absense from national television. TonyFreakinAlmeida 16:12, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There is no question that TNA aided in bringing some mainstream exposure back to the NWA World Heavyweight Championship... but so has WWE, with the airing of NWA weekly wrestling programs (as well as super cards) on WWE 24/7 and releasing DVDs on Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes and the Horseman. However, there is no way that TNA provided that title with a majority of its notoriety, because there were worthy champions defending that belt 7 times a week... long before it unfortunately ended up in the offices of has-beens who give the title to any big name outsider that enters the promotion several times a year. TNA cheapened the NWA World Heavyweight Championship so badly, and it's going to take a great champion (like Bryan Danielson, who is allegedly scheduled to win it) to bring some respectability back to it. - Parsonsburg
 * Well I'm saying, today, this era. TNA had the belt in their possession, used it for Sacrifice, even called Christian the NWA World Champion, a "title change" happened, those were my points for including Angle's reign as being unofficial, but TNA has to keep changing their minds or having one person in the company say this and the web site say that, I'll just go with what the commercial is now saying, Angle's a 7 time world champion in his career, and none of those are NWA title reigns as according to TNA. TonyFreakinAlmeida 22:32, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * There certainly was a title on the line at Sacrifice, but the records indicate that Christian Cage was crowned the very first TNA World Champion the moment that he was stripped of the NWA title. Clearly, the only involvement that the NWA World Title had in the match was an appearance of the physical belt... much like the only involvement that the IWGP World Title had in the match between Lesnar and Angle (in IGF) was the appearance of the belt that Lesnar refused to give back to NJPW after being stripped of it. - Parsonsburg
 * Well as according to their title history page right now they're not recognizing Cage as the first TNA champion, nor did they ever refer to him as the TNA World Heavyweight Champion during Sacrifice. I guess in the end, they thought, okay he's booked to lose the title tonight, it's the same date on the title history as when the NWA has stripped him, lets just not acknowledge the NWA stripping him and go forward with the Dusty finish angle. TonyFreakinAlmeida 16:10, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly; even though TNA wants to disregard the official stripping of the championship several hours before the PPV doesn't mean that Kurt Angle actually won the title. In fah-la-la land, Angle may be considered a former NWA World Heavyweight Champion... but in reality, he never won the championship.  Hopefully, it can put this debate to rest and we can simply laugh at TNA's (as well as its' fanbase) continued ignorance. - Parsonsburg

Angle's reign should be treated like those of Carlos Colon, Victor Jovica, and Jack Veneno. He was booked to win the title, and did, but the NWA does not officialy acknowledge the title change(s). 41.245.128.63 (talk) 14:47, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Early Champions
I don't think the early champions should be on this list. This should be a list of the champions that held the belt recognized as the "World" championship, while there was an NWA. Regardless of whether you believe the NWA was formed in 1940 or 1948, I don't think the champions from Hackenschmidt to Nagurski should be on here. Yes, they were all world champions, but they weren't NWA World Champions. I think the NWA (and TNA) just claims their championships as part of its lineage in order to make their world championship seem older and more important. It would be like if the WWE claimed all of the champions on this list up to Buddy Rogers as former WWE World Champions. As for the controversy about whether the NWA was formed in 1940 or 1948, I believe the way out of that is citation of reliable third-hand sources. The story I heard is that the kernal of the NWA was the Midwest Wrestling Association, which was run by Pinkie George. All those champions on this list from Orville Brown in 1940 up to 1948 were MWA champions, and then the NWA was formed by George, Brown, and some other promoters, and the MWA belt was elevated to become the NWA World belt. But I don't have any reliable sources for that story either. - Geoffg 05:14, 16 May 2007 (UTC) --CougIsWiki 07:27, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Everyone from Sonny Myers up needs to be removed. Orville Brown was the first world heavyweight champion ever to be recognized by the National Wrestling Alliance.

Removing everyone up to Orville Brown is insane. The champions beforehand, especially Frank Gotch, laid the very groundwork that distinguishes the NWA World Heavyweight Championship as the most important title in the business. Are you two honestly suggesting that we erase Frank Gotch's reign of 7 years and 3 months (the second longest reign in the history of wrestling) from the records? - Parsonsburg
 * I'm not suggesting that we remove Frank Gotch etc. from "the records", just that the history of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship is not the history of pro wrestling itself. Frank Gotch is a very important figure in early American pro wrestling. He is a historic figure whose actions and fame should be recorded.  But it is the nature of a wrestling organization to do everything it can to make itself look like the most important promotion ever.  WWE does it, WCW did it, and NWA definitely does it.  It does not, however, behoove us, as objective historians and encyclopedists, to buy into their promos.  I know that there was a World Championship before there was an NWA, and I know Frank Gotch, and other important wrestlers held that title, but I do not think that there was an NWA Champion before there was an NWA.  I think the NWA World Heavyweight Championship was "the" unified world championship for a while, but not before 1948.  If anything, it started as the MWA Championship, and was elevated to world status.  I don't think the World Championship that Frank Gotch, Jim Londos, and other earlier champions held was the same belt. - Geoffg 06:10, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Title before July 1948 was not the NWA World Title. You may as well include Ancient Greek winners of Olympian Games Wrestling. The National Wrestling Alliance World Heavyweight Championship did not exist before July 1948. See the PWI website, "Sex Lies And Headlocks" by Assael and Mooneyham, and countless other sources. While it's nice to think that the belts Frank Gotch etc won from 1904 onwards are somehow linked to the NWA belt, it's complete fantasy.......22 July 2007
 * The World Heavyweight Championship was the foundation that allowed for the creation of the NWA World Heavyweight Championship. Unless someone can provide a good reason, rationale and plan for creating a separate article to cover the history of the belt that Frank Gotch and others won, the history of the World Heavyweight Championship pre-NWA should remain intact with this entry. - Parsonsburg

Erm, it's NOT the same title. It's irrelevant if it was the foundation or the like, the NWA Title was in turn the foundation for the WWE Title, WCW Title, WCW International Title, AWA Title, World Class Title, and TNA Title, but I doubt you would agree that we should list say Lout Thesz as having held all of those belts! And what is wrong with simply creating a wikipedia article called "Wrestling World Titles before 1948"? Also, claiming that the current NWA is in any way shape or form equivalent to the championship of Thesz, Funk and Race is a bit of a stretch isn't it?.......26 July 2007
 * ... what's your point again? Please re-read my post, as I clearly indicated that I would support a separate entry for the pre-NWA World Heavyweight Championship if "a good reason, rationale and plan" was implemented for it.  While you're at it, entertain me enough to point out where I claimed that the current NWA is equivalent to the champions of the past.  Judging by the dialogue, arrangement and tone of your post, you don't seem to be adding anything even remotely productive to this discussion... nor have an iota of an idea as to what you're talking about and/or want to argue. - Parsonsburg

If you can't undertans that post, maybe you should elarn to speak English better. The only rationale and reason is that the NWA's OWN PAGE doesn't claim that Gotch/Hackenschmidt's title reigns are NWA World reigns and that the lineage starts with Orville Brown!! There's also no need to be so insulting to posters who are posting plain fact! The fact that the "NWA" themselves make no such claim as their belt going back to 1904, or 1605, or whenever should be ample reason that those champions are not included in this article. I realize that you think you are somehow superior to mere mortals such as us, but that doesn't give you the right to rewrite history. Also, if you dug deeper, you'd realize that the current NWA owns the NAME "National Wrestling Alliance" but the body of work etc of the actual NWA is currently sitting in Titan Towers. While we could argue that champions from Brown are somehow forerunners to the current vacant indie belt, only someone with an ego such as yours would even dare to suggest that Gotch is a former NWA Champion. Hey, didn't Gotch or Jenkins hold some regional title before 1904? What's the lineage of THAT belt? Why not claim THAT as the NWA Title too?
 * I find it hilarious you're advising an English major in his Junior year of college to learn English better, yet you can barely type it. Of course the NWA's official page doesn't recognize the reigns prior to Orville Brown, and no one (including myself) is disputing that. I will neither oppose nor endorse the notion of a separate page for the World Championship prior to Orville Brown until there's a majority vote to do so, along with a good and specific plan set forth on how to begin and end the history of the World Championship pre-NWA; this is the third time I'm having to point this out to you, so I'm hoping you'll finally understand it this time.  You can feel free to call me an egomaniac or whatever else you'd like, but it's clear that you are a very dense individual, if I'm having to point out something very simple to you for the third time in a row.  Gotch and Hackenschmidt both held National Heavyweight Championships prior to their World Title runs, but it's in no way attached to the World Heavyweight Championship. What does a Regional Title have to do with the World Heavyweight Championship?  Absolutely nothing, it's completely irrelevent to the situation.  I must point out to you that the only body of NWA's work sitting in Titan Towers is that recorded under Ted Turner and ECW's watch, because WCW and ECW were just mere territories of the NWA prior to their rise of fame; if you'll remember, the NWA is basically a governing body that welcomes several promotions to join them and become NWA territories, which allows the promotions to enjoy the benefits of having the NWA titles defended on their shows.  There has never been one sole NWA promotion, and you should notice that WWE does not own the NWA work done in Japan, TNA, Puerto Rico, Mexico and countless other territories/countries; WWE may be in possession of the NWA's most notable work, but certainly not all of it. Again, if all of us can arrive at a mutual consensus on appropriately transfering the history of the World Heavyweight Championship pre-Orville Brown to another entry, I'll be the first one to start working on it.  Otherwise, it all remains.  - Parsonsburg

My take is this:

1)The "NWA" (whoever they may now be) DO NOT recognise any pre-Orville brown votes. 2)It is of no significance what some "wikivote" decides. Why not have a wikipedia vote to decide what the capital of the USA is listed as? I say Newark, if others agree, should we rewrite the USA article? Of course not, it is a PLAIN FACT that holders of ANY belt prior to orville Brown WERE NOT NWA CHAMPIONS. Failure to grasp such a concept shows that anyone can get into an English course at your college:) 3)Nobody cares whether you are an English major in your Junior year, the President of Apple, or a septic tank cleaner. 4)The "NWA" was originally an alliance(ooh) of promotions. By the mid-80's these had all disappeared or had been swallowed up by JCP/WCW. After Flair refused to put Luger over yet again at GAB '91, WCW stripped him of the belt and did Luger/Flair. Well over a year later NJPW decided that Flair's "title" was "vacant" and created the NEW "NWA Title", WCW threatened a lawsuit and got control of the belt which was defended as a secondary joke title in WCW. When they decided to just abandon it as the farce it was, Dennis Cordaluzzo(sp?) picked up the NAME "NWA", and filed a lawsuit against WCW for both the physical belt, and because WCW were referring to people like Race, Steamboat, Funk etc as former WCW Champions. The judge's verdict was that while the man from Cherry Hill owned the name "NWA", and WCW were forbidden from using it, the belt, and the lineage belonged to WCW. It's like the current "AWA", the physical entity that was the Verne Gagne AWA is owned by WWE, but someone else wons the NAME "AWA" and has an entirely separate "AWA" which they claim is the same thing, which it is not. There was also another Boston-based AWA which is a third promotion. And how many "UWF"s have there been? The NWA post-1993 was essentially one promotion, while other small-time feds could lease out the NAME "NWA" in the vain hopes of giving their belts and wrestlers some sort of credibility. TNA leased out the NAME "NWA" and the right to call their Champions "NWA Champion" since Jarret figured that the name recognition of "NWA" was worth the money. However the physical body/entity (and I don't just mean videotape libraries) is owned by WWE. It's like "Macedonia". A group of Slavics can call their country the "Republic of Macedonia" and put the Sun of Vergina on their flag, but the essence of what Macedonia is and was is part of Greece. What the NWA truly was (and not some videotape:) is part of WWE not the "NWA". 4)Simply remove all names prior to Orville brown in 1948. You can quote verbatim from the first chapter of "sex Lies And headlocks"(is that allowed) or reword it. 5)Put a note that SOME people recognise pre-1948 Titles as a forerunner to the NWA Title. 6)Create a separate wikipedia article called something like "Wrestling World Titles prior to the creation of the NWA" 7)Stop making personal insults. 8)It is irrelevant what anyone personally thinks about it. The FACT is that Orville Brown is the first NWA Champion. yes, I repeated myself, but it that truly is all that matters.
 * For someone who vehemently protests that Wiki's history of the title should match the lineage found on the NWA's website, you certainly do more bitching about it than actually doing something about it; if you want the champions pre-Orville Brown removed so badly, REMOVE THEM! I truly don't believe you realize that you are both arguing with and insulting someone who will basically support a separate entry for champions pre-Orville Brown.  I would additionally like to point out to you that I find it highly ironic that you are demanding that I stop personally insulting you, yet over half of your hostile rambling is full of shallow insults.  I am finished debating with you, because reasoning with you seems to be equal to clapping with one hand.  All I'm going to say is that if you want the champions pre-Orville Brown removed, then do it yourself.  Otherwise, spare this discussion page anymore of your lengthy and mostly unnecessary rambling. - Parsonsburg

It may seem "rambling" to you, but it was intended to illustrate a point that you seemed unable(or more likely unwilling) to grasp. Your personal insults are typical of someone of your age, so I really should not have been offended. If you remain unwilling to accept the facts the way they are, rather than the way certain people perceive them to be, then there is really nothing I, or anyone else, is able to do about it. Long story short...the NWA was formed in July 1948, thus anyone claiming to be "NWA World Champion" prior to that time is either a liar or the inventor of time travel. Having reread your postings I realize my being offended by your hostility and smug arrogance is precisely what you wanted to happen, so you "got" me there. I walked into your childish trap. Congratulations on that one, it shall not happen again.

You clearly have no clue about NWA history. New Japan didn't "just decide the NWA World Title was vacant a year after Flair was stripped of it". It had been vacant but New Japan hosted the tournament, most likely because at that point one of the top guys at new japan was the NWA President. An New Japan didn't just abandon the title and "some guy out of New Jersey picked it up". The NWA (yes it was still operating) had issues with WCW making Rick Rude NWA World Champion. That and the fact that thery wanted a booking fee for everytime the NWA World Champ appeared on WCW programming is what made WCW leave. As for "that guy in Cherry Hill, New Jersey", Dennis Coralluzzo joined the NWA through Steve Rickard. Who's he? Well if you look through the title history you'll see a switch between Race & Flair in New Zealand & Singpore in 1984. Yep, Steve Rickard is the NWA promoter that booked the first switch (his brother Tony in Singaoore booked the other). Because it was done without Board approval it wasn't recognized, until the late 90's when Howard Brody said "well the switches DID happen, so why not recognize them". Oh, BTW, Jim Crockett Jr. was STILL an NWA member at this time too (and was until being dismisseed by the Board in 1995). And so was Larry O'Day, the promoter in Australia who was a member until he died from cancer in 1997.

All the talk about belts, just remember, a belt represents a title, a belt isn't a title. So Kurt Angle won a match where the Domed Globe was in use. TNA can call Angle NWA World Champ all they want, but they don't own the title. Much like WCW tried to claim Lex Luger as NWA World Champ, the NWA said neither were NWA World Champ, and since they own the title (and have since 1948) their decision stands. As far as the Big Gold Belt goes, it represented the NWA World Title. it was paid for by Crockett and given to flair as a gift (so said both George South & Nelson Royal). All WCW did was buy the belt from Flair. WCW never owned the lineage the to the NWA World Title and neither does WWE. A federal judge in North Carolina even ruloed on thios. Why is this so hard to understand ever 14 years later? - MrNWA4Life —The preceding  signed but undated.

If I recall correctly the judge ruled that WCW had the right to claim holders from Orville Brown onwards as former champions. Does anyone have a link/source which can confirm or deny this? If WCW had no right as to such things, why didn't the NWA sue them every time they referred to Sting's first WCW reign as beginning in 190, Flair's in 1981, or every time Harley Race or Terry Funk was called a "former WCW World Champion"? The way I see it as similar to the UWF. There were 3 separate promotions: Mid-South Pro Wrestling, Universal Wrestling Federation(Watts), and Universal Wrestling Federation(Abrams). The odd one out was Herb's promotion, but using your logic, MSPW is the odd one out. Look, the current NWA owns the NAME "National Wrestling Alliance" and they control their own title etc. But the reality is that most people(and a judge in a court of law) say that the WCW belt is the continuation of the original 1948 NWA belt. Also the idea that Gotch's 1904 win is in any way shape or form connected to the NWA World Title is just plain silly. Much of the "NWA coninuity" was revisionism months or even years after the event to patch together a single title lineage that never truly existed. The lineage of Funk, Race etc's belt either ended in December 2001 when Chris Jericho pinned Steve Austin, or lives on in Great Khali's belt, depending on Vince Mcmahon's whim of the day. The belt that Shane Douglas threw down was for all intents and purposes a new title. Soemthing similar has happened with the AWA. the real AWA is no more, but someone(not sure of his name) has bought the NAME AWA, and is claiming that his current title is the same thing as the Gagne, Bockwinkel belt. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

So it looks like Gotch etc have been removed after all. As many people have stated again and again, since the National Wrestling ALLIANCE did not exist before July 1948, there could not realistically be an National Wrestling Alliance World Champion before July 1948. One does wonder how the "NWA from 1904" supporters have reacted to this.

No Title switch on 4/9/08
My name is Jeff Capo - I work for the National Wrestling Alliance. There was no title switch on 4/9/08. I confirmed this with Bob Trobich, Executive Director of the NWA. JeffCapo (talk) 19:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Revisionism/Retconning etc
Has anyone seen this website? http://www.midatlanticgateway.com/Almanac/nwa_title/nwatitle_antiquephotoalbum.htm

I ask because if this is a legitimate source/info, then I feel the article would need to be edited. The claims made here about the Flair-Race '84 title switches seem valid, and should be treated in the same manner as the Flair-Colon title switches. Or at the very least in the same manner as the Hogan-Bockwinkel AWA title switches. I would be very interested to hear what others think/feel about this. Note that WWE don't recognise these changes, although I'm not sure how much say Mcmahon has in the matter....41.245.164.32 (talk) 06:56, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The NWA did NOT recognize Flair-Race from '84 at the time. Basically, for there to be a World Championship change, the Board/Committee needed to have a majority vote. Instead the New Zealand and Singapore bookers (who were brothers at the time) went into business for themselves, and booked the changes without even putting it to the board. That's why the NWA ignored it, and rightly so. The same thing happened in the Caribbean. Yes Carlos Colon beat Flair, but again this was the local promoter making decisions without consulting the NWA as a whole. The funny thing though is that in the NWA shuffle of the mid-90's one of the 2 brothers became a Senior Executive of the NWA or some such stuff, and so retroactively recognized the Flair-Race switches like 12 years after the event! Today the NWA acts as though they have always recognized Flair-Race from '84, when the actual NWA of 1984 were livid that someone could be so arrogant and self-serving. Personally I think this article should make note of the fact that the NWA in 1984 did NOT recognize the Flair-Race switches. 41.245.131.170 (talk) 13:19, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

NWA Title in 1991
Was there even an NWA World Heavyweight Title as of the time of the first Flair-Fujinami match in 1991? 41.245.144.160 (talk) 11:33, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes. Don't be stupid.--DanteAgusta (talk) 17:56, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

That is unnecessarily rude and offensive. The point is that I read somewhere(am searching for source to cite...) that WCW became an independent company in late 1990 and that Sting became the first WCW World Heavyweight Champion at that time. That is why WCW always seemed to refer to Sting as having held one more World Title than some people thought. When Flair beat Sting in January 1991 it could not possibly have been for the NWA Title(although the NWA and WWE now claim it was). Likewise going into the Flair-Fujinami match it was billed as being for the WCW World Title. When New Japan revived the NWA Title in 1992, I remember reading in a Napolitano mag that the new champion would be the first NWA Champion since Sting in late 1990. Now the NWA today claim that the title went Sting the NWA  to Flair, to Fujinami, to Flair again, who was then only stripped on September 9, 1991, but at the time there effectively was no NWA, and Sting as of January 1 1991 was the WCW World Champion, and the NWA belt was non-existent. Like I said there was an online source for this and I am searching for it. The reason many people missed this at the time was because Sting was never announced as being a "new champion" as such on TV, and to the casual viewer it looked like one continuous reign. Also, after the NWA-WCW fallout in 1993, WCW claimed that everyone from Orville Brown on was a WCW Champion. The simple point though is that Flair's supposed 2 NWA reigns in 1991, and the even more ludicrous Fujinami 1991 reign never happened at the time, and the first mention of them was after they had supposedly occured. I mean WWE could go back and fill in a title history for the ECW Title between Rhino in 2001 and Rob Van Dam in 2006, but I'm pretty sure Wikipedia would not recognise it. Yet these 3 filled-in title reigns are held up as official, and Wiki8pedia even criticises WWE for not recognizing the Flair-Fujinami switches in 1991!41.245.165.107 (talk) 08:34, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Dante's reply was unecessarily rude but your second posting almost confirms his worst fears.
 * To answer your query: of course there was an NWA title in 1991.
 * The first WCW Champion was not Sting but Ric Flair who won the NWA title from Sting and was subsequently also declared WCW Champion. But Flair also remained NWA Champion. There was no switch from one to the other title but the addition of a new title.
 * Flair was eventually stripped first of the WCW title (July), then of the NWA title (September). Luger succeeded to the former title, while the other remained vacant for a while until the NWA (who had soon rejected Luger's claim to the title) decided to fill the vacancy by a tournament held by WCW and New Japan, which was won by Masa Chono.
 * The NWA title remained until WCW parted ways with the NWA and replaced the title with the "WCW International" World title, which eventually merged with the WCW title.
 * WCW never claimed that Terry Funk was a WCW Champion but that he was a former World Champion. The use of that term (or "World Heavy Weight Champion" or "Heavy Weight Champion of the World") was quite common, especially after the WCWI world title was merged, much more common then in the WWF, which mostly omitted the World in "WWF World Champion".
 * As for the Fujinami situation, things get difficult: I have read about the temporary split between WCW and NWA title sometime in 1994 in an Apter mag. Hence it is not recent NWA propaganda. But I can understand your impression. Watching the Super Brawl pitting Flair against Fujinami one wouldn't get the impression that this was anything but Fujinami challenging for Flair's world title. But that is because WCW chose to announce it that way and because the same belt represented both titles. And actually it was not a fully fledged title split. This would have meant that Flair had lost to Fujinami with his NWA title - but not his WCW title - on the line. But it actually was a title match for both, virtually inseparable titles. However, Fujinami's win was recognised by New Japan as a title win, whereas WCW chose to ignore this change. The NWA title was controversial (as both NJ and WCW had a say in this), whereas the WCW title was not: WCW alone decided about the WCW title and the NWA didn't much care about this new title anyway. The split is due to this different recognition, which also explains why WCW announced the match the way it did. If New Japan would have promoted and announced it, Flair would have been the challenger. Flair and WCW were of course in advantage because they had the belt.
 * It is ridiculous to compare this with supposed fictious ECW champions after Rhino, as ECW was dead for many years, whereas there is no such break with the NWA, which always had been alliance of promotions.
 * Goodday, Str1977 (talk) 22:31, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Hello

I have found this page:

http://members.chello.at/dietmar.kienboeck/title.htm

It seems to have been written in late 1999 or so, but note the bit about "How many World Titles has Sting held?" I also have old VHS tapes from 1990 where Sting is clearly called the WCW World Champion, NOT the NWA World Champion. So clearly there was a split BEFORE January 11 1991. This should also be added to the List of WCW World Champions page, as that article continues to promote the fiction that Ric Flair was the first WCW World Champion, in 1991! Bring Back The F (talk) 08:00, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, unless you can prove the reliablity of that site, it isn't going in.-- Will C  09:10, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Prove the reliability? Huh? Okay smartass, how exactly does someone prove whether or not a site is reliable? There are links/references listed now that are woefully inaccurate, but I guess they've been proved to be reliable huh? Bring Back The F (talk) 15:38, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * First remain civil..second, it is all up to you to prove how they check facts, where they get their information, and if the creators and runners of the site are educated enough in the subject to be considered experts. If you can't do that, then the site is not reliable or just questionable.-- Will C  03:43, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

ER, where do wrestling0tiles.com get their information? Where does obsessedwithwrestling.com get their information? From watching the shows themselves, or are those sites run by the WWE, TNA, ROH etc bookers? And how do the "Reliable" sites "check facts"? i remember reading a discussion on another page where the "Reliable source" stated that Sting was the first TNA World Champion! Yet until someone pointed out that the reference was wrong, it stayed a linked resource/ There are also numerous wikipedia articles where the "reliable sources" contradict each other? So who was checking the facts? Considering many of the pro wrestling article's "reliable sources" are simply fansites run by people with no connection to the business other than as spectators, how exactly do these sites "get their information" and "check their facts"?...Likewise, about people being "Educated enough in the subject to be considered experts", again that would be hilarious had you not stated it so matter-of-factly. Again many of the "Reliable sources" are fansites, many run by kids who weren't even watching wrestling in the 1990's. How are these people "Educated enough"? By reading Scott Keith's blog? Now, the link provided by me, is from a site that is no different than the "Reliable" ones, with one obvious exception...it was written AT THE TIME, rather than years after the event by someone who very likely never witnessed the actual events of 1990-1991 firsthand. That is a far more reliable secondhand resource than something written by someone who never saw it, or worse, the multitude of third-hand "Sources" who merely copy-and-paste stuff from other sites, or parrot what they read in some paperback smear job which speaks of "Rocky Melvin" or the NWA World Title's lineage beginning in 1964! Bring Back The F (talk) 11:03, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * You can whine all you want on other sources. The subject is this source, not questioning them. I didn't place them in. They may be right, they may be wrong. The point is not making the articles wrose. If you can't prove the reliablity of the source you have presented, then I suggest dropping this discussion. The only reliable sites used by WP:PW are Figure Four, PWTorch, Slam Sports, company sites, and on occasion WrestleView. If you are so confident that site is correct, then it shouldn't be too hard to prove it instead of wasting time whining about other sites.-- Will C  05:15, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't "Whining" I was merely questioning how sources that have been shown to contain factual errors are still deemed "reliable", and how exactly these "Reliable" sources got their information. I would say it was the same way as the site I listed, the differences being that the site I listed was written contemporaneously with the information at hand, and also that the site I listed never called Sting the first TNA World Champion. If sites have been shown to contain factual errors, then surely they become ureliable? Didn't PWTorch state that Hogan was returning to WWE, but then he showed up in TNA? So how that a reliable source? Bring Back The F (talk) 06:44, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't see any of the sources in this article currently being called reliable. They are questionable, just like the source you presented. By all means, remove the questionable sources within this article, but don't add questionable sources. You have still yet to establish how that site is reliable. Change of plans, Hogan was set to go back. If you read or listen to any of his recent interviews, he had a deal but it wasn't good enough and had been pulled from the table. He then was signed by TNA.-- Will C  08:49, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Reliability
This page is a joke. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.245.169.97 (talk) 13:23, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Would you care to be more precise? Str1977 (talk) 22:33, 23 February 2010 (UTC)