Talk:List of Naruto antagonists/Archive 2

Just in case anyone wants more solid proof for Pain's name
Kishimoto wrote it out in English here. So that should put any concerns about whether or not it's the official spelling to rest. The Splendiferous Gegiford (talk) 17:50, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I am getting a bandwith exceeded message. Is there some other way to get the picture. --76.66.181.133 (talk) 06:15, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed it. Plus changed the picture to make the name more obvious The Splendiferous Gegiford (talk) 04:07, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Madara, again
"His plans foiled once again, he returned to Konoha in secret, training Itachi Uchiha and later assisted him in slaughtering all of the remaining Uchiha except for Sasuke Uchiha". Is there a source for this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.233.246.88 (talk) 07:53, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

No. Madara said Itachi sought him out and asked him for his help in killing the rest of the Uchiha. 142.26.133.248 (talk) 15:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Not true. It said Itachi was the only one to notice Madara some how, and Madara holding a grudge on the Uchiha and the Village at the time (and probably now still) made a deal with Itachi which Itachi seemed to offer because the pact was that in assisting Itachi the massacre of the Uchiha, Madara was not allowed to lay a hand on the Leaf village in the Uchiha's absence becaused it weakened the village, which Madara could have used as an opening. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.181.216.154 (talk) 05:39, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Mizukage? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.85.26 (talk) 02:23, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Madara
how come it says that madara did attack the village with the nine-tails?
 * it has not been comfirmed if it is true. so why is that put on there?

Huh? That's unusually verbalized, but I'll try to give a satisfactional answer... Itachi stated in chapter 385 that Madara tamed and controlled the Kyuubi, in the same chapter, Sasuke revealed that the secret message in the Nakano shrine about the Sharingan's ultimate purpose was to controll the Kyuubi, and so we can only assume that that is what Madara did... But while still on the subject of Madara, I'd like to change the statement of him being immortal on the grounds that no such statement was made in the original raw version of the manga, only in the fanmade translation. 217.208.24.113 (talk) 14:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Is it a case of a completely fanmade concept, or is "immortal" not the most accurate of words? ~SnapperTo 18:50, 20 January 2008 (UTC)


 * In chapter 385, Itachi calls Madara a 不滅の男 (fumetsu no otoko). Fumetsu means immortal, undying, or indestructible. JadziaLover (talk) 21:16, 20 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Then, aside from perhaps changing it to "Itachi states that Madara is an immortal", the article is fine. ~SnapperTo 21:50, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Speaking (or rather typing, whatever) of Madara, I'd like to know where it was stated that Madara returned "at only a fraction of his former strength". Sounds like OR to me... 217.208.24.113 (talk) 12:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

People assumed that from Hisshouburaiken's translation: "Madara is a pathetic shell of his former self". It's worth noting that none of the other translators said this. He was called a loser or failure but never stated to be weaker. Is it just me, but whenever there's a translation issue, it always seems to be Hisshou? The Tobi/Madara fiasco in chapter 364, "invincible" when there's no mention, and now this pathetic shell stuff. He adds or omits words at his convenience I think. Wikiuser6 (talk) 16:46, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * No, he just doesn't translate very literally and he tries to translate as quickly as he can. This causes a number of misinterpretations and mistakes by both him and his readers. He usually is quite quick to correct them if he sees fit, though.
 * Two other examples of his misinterpretations would be him saying the Four-tails uses many different elemental fusions, while it really said the Yonbi uses a new element called Yōton (Melting Element). He also said Madara was considered the strongest shinobi, while it should have been the Senju clan that was called the strongest
 * No matter what, HisshouBuraiKen is still a very good translator. Just one that prefers easy readability over being literal and speed over accuracy. JadziaLover (talk) 23:46, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Is "a fraction of his former strength" incorrect then? ~SnapperTo 23:55, 28 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Itachi says 「今のマダラは負け犬だ…」, which literally means "The present Madara is a loser". Even more literally, it would be "The Madara of today is a defeated dog". 負け犬 is a common expression for "loser," or "underdog" and is most commenly used to refer to the person who is most likely to lose a competition. In this case, the competition between Madara and Itachi, over who will reach the true height of the Uchiha's power.
 * Personally, I don't think it really says anything about Madara's strength, but more about Madara's state of mind and how Itachi thinks himself superior over Madara.
 * So yes, "a fraction of his former self" would be incorrect, in my eyes. JadziaLover (talk) 00:28, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Why is the a link to Tobi under Madara's entry? This hasn't been confirmed.  Even if Tobi says he is Madara, it doesn't mean that its true.     —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.197.252.253 (talk) 23:07, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

What was the new eye technique that Itachi mentions Madara acquired after taking his brother's eyes?

There really needs to be emphasis in Madara's section that he had the Permanent Mangekyo Sharingan, the Kyuubi at his disposal and a Space/Time jutsu greater than the Fourth's, yet he still lost against the Shodai Hokage. AS it stands, it just glosses over the facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.36.16.94 (talk) 01:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Chapter 399 says Madara did have control over the Kyuubi, but that was during the battle with the First Hokage. The attack that began the series (where the Kyuubi was sealed inside Naruto) was just a "natural" disaster, or so Madara says... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.26.133.248 (talk) 15:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * And at the same time, Jiraiya and Itachi would have us believe that Madara actually did summon it 16 years before. So it's impossible to know who to believe.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.99.169.251 (talk) 16:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Madara said his brother willingly gave him his eyes, and that he did everything he did in order to protect the Uchiha, not out of personal lust for power. He only went psycho when the Uchiha turned against him and sided with the Hokage. That kinda makes him an antihero, like Itachi, instead of a villain, doesn't it?


 * Yeah Madara's really looking a lot more protagonistic, but we cannot forget he's after the main character (Naruto's) life, making him an antagonist (still), regardless of reasoning. Honestly, he's the villain in the current storyline but the hero in the past storylines. I motion his article be moved into the List of minor Naruto characters where it's more appropriate. AnimeNikkaJamal (talk) 00:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It seems more like he's trying to sound innocent so as to be appealing to Sasuke. The fact that he contradicts two other characters in regards to the demon fox's attack on Konoha attests to that. Regardless, he's still a textbook example of an antagonist (founder of Akatsuki, opposed First Hokage, keeping Naruto from Sasuke, etc.) ~SnapperTo 02:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Having been able to tame and control the Kyuubi (which is ALL Itachi said) doesn't automatically mean he was responsible for all of its actions. As seen in the most recent chapter, he apparently used the Kyuubi during his fight with the First Hokage... but there's no proof at all that he was responsible for its later attack. Jiraiya speculated about it, but that's all it was: Speculation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.99.127.210 (talk) 17:21, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Itachi specifically says Madara was responsible for the demon fox's attack in chapter 386. He was not speculating. ~SnapperTo 18:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * True, but even so, Madara said his brother gave him his eyes. Although what Itachi showed Sasuke says something completely different.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.157.68.40 (talk) 19:29, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Itachi's account of the eye transfer doesn't necessarily differ; even if Madara's brother willingly gave up his eyes he'd still be screaming in agony. Similarly, he may not have supported the idea until after his eyes were gone. Regardless, the article supports both accounts of the fox's attack. ~SnapperTo 20:40, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * What Itachi showed Sasuke was Madara reaching towards his terrified-looking brother's eyes, apologising, and then his new Uber-Mangekyo. What Madara showed Sasuke was his brother smiling with blood streaming out of his empty eye sockets.  The two stories don't co-relate.  If Madara's brother willingly gave up his eyes, he wouldn't have looked so terrified.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.26.133.248 (talk) 15:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Everyone seems to forget that the characters are NOT OMNISCIENT NARRATORS. You all read into what they say far too much, and take every word at face value.  Itachi said what he thought was the case, Madara gave his version.  They don't correlate because they're coming from CHARACTERS with different motives and knowledge bases.140.32.20.195 (talk) 14:23, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
 * What I'm getting at isd that unless Madara's playing innocent with Sasuke to gain his trust, then his version of the event is probably more correct than Itachi's because he was the one who did it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.26.133.248 (talk) 20:24, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Evidently Madara is now a member of Snake/Hawk, as he is seen travelling with Sasuke, Jugo, Suigetsu, and Karin. 75.157.88.1 (talk) 17:16, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm really confused as of right now. Madara the mizukage? For those who haven't found out, read the new manga, it came out last night. Madara took off his mask and showed Kisame who he was, and apologized for deceiving him for so long knowing that he was close to "him." Kisame then referred to him as "Mizukage-sama" and then corrected himself saying, "or rather, Madara-san." I looked up the Mizukage, and nothing is known about him. Not even his face.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.130.36.37 (talk) 16:28, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * First off, what does "Mizukage" mean? Second, shouldn't it be included in Madara's profile that he could block Zabuza/Suigetsu's sword with one arm and not sustain any damage? 142.26.133.248 (talk) 22:00, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Mizukage is the leader of the village of the mist, the same as Hokage is the leader of the village of the leaves. it all fits —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.226.1.27 (talk) 05:42, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

ahhh most of this discussion is mere speculation but i would like to join it!!!!!!Grimmjow E6 (talk) 23:56, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

damn!(is swearing ok on wikipedia? T^T ) i really had my heart set on tobi being obito. im still watching the english anime, i learned about the akatsuki accidentally on youtube. anyway, Masashi was pretty clever. i think he wanted us to assume tobi was obito because the names have the same letters, they are both sharingan users, and they have the same hair, and apparently madara cut his hair short, and it looks just like obito's... Mr. Kishimoto truly is a manga/anime genius. KyuubiVsShukaku (talk) 00:28, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey, Tobi could still be Obito. It is very possible that Madara's, what, possesed Obito's body or something? All we know for sure is that Tobi=Madara. But hey, he could still be Obito. I mean, notice that Kishimoto-sama posted Kakashi's childhood story where Obito dies RIGHT BEFORE Shippuden. Then again, that story could've been placed there just to strengthen the misconception that Obito somehow survived. Still, I have a feeling that one-eyed mask will lead to something...Noodle2D23 (talk) 16:11, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

oh yeah, obito's mask. you know, that was the first thing that i saw as proof that tobi is obito. i don't know why i didn't include that. kakashi must've taken obito's left eye, because the right half of obito's body was crushed, but his eye could've healed, and the hole is over tobi's right eye. i justed wanted to say again about the name (i read this somewhere) if you say tobi over and over, you end up saying obito (over and over) tobitobitobitobi!! KyuubiVsShukaku (talk) 01:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Which of course is all irrelevant since we would need verfable sources to add anything of this nature and not pure speculation. --76.71.208.60 (talk) 20:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

well obviously we wouldn't add this to the article. i thought talk pages were MADE for speculation. was i mistaken? KyuubiVsShukaku (talk) 05:11, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No, they're made to discuss the article, not its subject(s). If you want to speculate, there are plenty of forums out there to use. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 05:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

i'm sorry. i wasn't aware of that. KyuubiVsShukaku (talk) 00:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I put down that Madara was able to block Suigetsu's sword with one arm and not sustain any damage, but someone deleated it. Why? 75.157.75.19 (talk) 18:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If I had to guess it would likely be that it was deemed to trivaial for inclusion. --76.66.190.126 (talk) 02:10, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Hidan's village revealed
In the new data book Kishimoto released, it is revealed that Hidan is from Yugakure (Hidden Hot Springs). 71.168.75.15 (talk) 03:12, 15 September 2008 (UTC) Fantasy Leader

Madara and the Kyuubi
Just something you can add to the Madara section. In chapter 399, page 10 & 11, you see the battle between Hashirama and Madara. This little bit here proves that the Kyuubi was summoned twice by Madara, once to attack Konohagakure (Where he and it were defeated by Hashirama) and the second time where he made no appearance but the Kyuubi was sealed.

I've seen a lot of confusion about the Kyuubi attacking Konohagakure between friends and others i've spoken with, so i think if you added that fact you'd be able to clear a lot of this up as most people read from Wikipedia DaisukeVulgar (talk) 15:58, 6 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Where does it state Madara summonded Kyuubi when Yondaime sealed him into Naruto? I assume thats the second summoning you're referring to. Frequen-Z (talk) 09:24, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


 * My mistake, it is only Itachi who points towards Madara summoning the Kyuubi the second time. Whereas Madara claims it to be only a natural disaster. Still, my point still stands that the Kyuubi has attacked Konohagakure twice and was defeated by a Hokage both times. DaisukeVulgar (talk) 00:51, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Karin is sick
She has bite scars everywhere except her hands, legs, and face. She even has scars on her breasts! *shudders in disgust* Just check page 14 of chapter 413. You can see the scars as she pulls open her shirt. Maybe that's what Suigetsu was refering to... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.157.79.72 (talk) 07:23, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Although likely relevant to this, Suigetsu specifically mentions that Karin did something to Sasuke, and Sasuke didn't appear to know that Karin could do that bite-thing prior to its unveiling.  Sui get  su  16:55, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Bando
An article keeps being added about a character named 'Bando'. Is there any proof this character exists or is he just some persons created character trying to fool everyone? And if he does, shouldn't he be added to the games page and not the antagonists? This was used for Arturo for the Bleach page DaisukeVulgar (talk) 18:24, 8 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Edit: After seeing a video of him on youtube, I can see he is real unless someone has created the perfect prank. But still, shouldn't he be added to his respective games page and not the antagonist page? Seems as the current version is for manga and anime only characters. DaisukeVulgar (talk) 18:39, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

References to the village names
Please someone fix the references to the villages. I click the takigakure which is mentioned on kakuzu's paragraph, and it just went to the world of naruto page and stuck at the top. Because there is no more a reference for a "takigakure" there. It is just written as their transleted names. And i dont know what "takigakure" means... --Fotte (talk) 21:49, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Pain's Bodies "Named"
In Naruto chapter 419, the six bodies Pain uses have received specific designations, unsurprisingly, derived from Buddhism. The names are as follows:

Six Paths of Pain (ペイン六道)
 * Deva Path (天道)
 * Asura Path (修羅道)
 * Human Path (人間道)
 * Animal Path (畜生道)
 * Preta Path (餓鬼道)
 * Naraka Path (地獄道)

Note: Animal Path refers both to the original body and its replacement.

Some of these paths may be translated in other (less accurate) ways, however these are the most apt, and follow the preferred naming as per the Wikipedia articles on Buddhism. For example, though ten (天) may be translated as "god", "angel", or "heaven", in this case, it specifically refers to the Devas of Buddhist cosmology. Likewise, shura (修羅) may be translated as "demon", or "warring demon", but specifically refers to the Asura, and jigoku (地獄), which can be translated as "hell", specifically refers to the Naraka. Gaki (餓鬼), sometimes translated literally as "hungry ghost", are more properly known as Preta.

There are also deeper meanings here, which relate to their abilities. Animal Path summons creatures (animals, obviously), while Preta Path is able to devour attacks (Preta constantly hunger), Naraka Path can presumably resurrect the dead (Naraka revive the dead to continue their suffering), and so on.

I'm not sure how this information should be incorporated into the article (if at all), but I felt it was important to at least clearly lay out the facts, as some scanlations are already "mucking up" the meanings behind the names. The article is already fairly long, but this information could probably be added without making Pain's section too much longer. WtW-Suzaku (talk) 09:17, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Changed Deva Path to Heaven Path, because you can't just arbitrarily say "ten refers to deva here cuz i sed so." Back up your claim next time. 207.80.142.5 (talk) 16:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Please read the articles on Buddhism I linked to, it isn't arbitrary at all. Tendō (天道) is the Deva Path, or Deva Realm, of Buddhist cosmology, which all of the other names are derived from:


 * A deva (देव Sanskrit and Pāli) in Buddhism is one of many different types of non-human beings who share the characteristics of being more powerful, longer-lived, and, in general, living more contentedly than the average human being.


 * Synonyms in other languages include Tibetan lha, Chinese tiān (天）, Korean cheon, Japanese ten, Vietnamese thiên. The concept of devas was adopted in Japan partly because of the similarity with the Shinto's concept of kami.


 * Other words used in Buddhist texts to refer to similar supernatural beings are devatā "deity" and devaputra (Pāli: devaputta) "son of the gods". It is unclear what the distinction between these terms is.


 * Translating Tendō as "Heaven" is a huge misrepresentation, as the Deva (天) are a specific type of supernatural being in the Buddhist cosmology which exist in the "Fine-Material World", a plane of existance that, while similar to Western views of Heaven, is notably different, and is considered a "realm of suffering" because Devas are trapped in a state of pure carnal joy, preventing them from reaching enlightenment until they die and are reincarnated to one of the lower paths. WtW-Suzaku (talk) 17:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, and to further prove the point, here are links to the Japanese wikipedia articles for Rikudō and, specifically, the Buddhist Deva. As you can see, the article on Devas specifically notes that 天 (and 天部神) are synonyms for Deva. WtW-Suzaku (talk) 17:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * And you're assuming that by using "Ten," they specifically intend to refer to Devas instead of the usual translation, "heaven" or "god." '天 is a kanji used to refer to heaven, god, etc., seeing as though those are its literal translations. No amount of stupid pages that use "ten" as the translation for Deva will prove your point unless you can specifically prove that in this instance, "ten" means "Deva" and not any of the other translations. You don't need to explain the concept of tendo to prove your point, either, nor does it really prove anything other than the fact that you're a huge tool. "Ten" can refer to Devas, but you have not specifically proven that in this instance it does. 207.80.142.5 (talk) 18:37, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Tendō (天道) is the Japanese (and Chinese, where it is pronounced Tian Dao) term for the Deva Path of Buddhist cosmology, which the supernatural creatures known as Deva (天) occupy. It's a direct translation, and has already been established as the preferred translation on wikipedia via the articles concerning Buddhism. It is not the same as Heaven Path, that is straight-up misinformation. Likewise, the Naraka Path (地獄道) is not the Hell Path, Jigokudō specifically refers to the Naraka Path of Buddhist cosmology, where the Naraka reside. Same with the Asura Path (not "demon", they aren't "demons", they are a specific type of supernatural creature called Asura). Translating it as "Heaven" instead of "Deva" would be like saying Odin is a Demon or Zeus is an Angel. I don't know how I can state it more clearly to you, but here are a bunch of online sources in various languages, as well as a link to a good book on Buddhist terminology that you can buy from Amazon (ISBN 8121511453):


 * http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-HFU/nx020891.htm
 * http://txt.duowan.com/070111/dfqw_sspzcz/8841200657.html
 * http://www.acmuller.net/soothill/data/s59/s5929-9053.html
 * http://www.xianfengfoxue.com/forum/index.php?s=c1dccd1839f200930b2d75141a3bd059&showtopic=4604
 * http://www.theqi.com/buddhism/yeh2.html
 * http://www.onmarkproductions.com/html/six-states.shtml
 * http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/8121511453/ref=ase_buddhartwobud-20/102-9268097-6394509?s=books&v=glance&n=283155&tagActionCode=buddhartwobud-20


 * Just because one of the kanji in the term can be translated as "Heaven" doesn't mean it's in any way accurate to translate the entire word as "Heaven Path". There's also absolutely no reason to start calling names, which is simply rude and against Wikipedia policies. WtW-Suzaku (talk) 19:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Although the IP's incivility was completely unacceptable, I agree with him. "Tendo" can either be translated as Heaven Path or Deva Path, and assuming one is true and the other false is simple WP:OR. You can give a bunch of links to a bunch of pages, but I could give just as much from some sort of Kanji dictionary that would tell you that "tendo" is heaven path.  Sui get  su  22:27, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Something you don't seem to be understanding, in addition, is that although 天 can refer to the Devas, it is more commonly used to simply say "heaven." The same kanji is used, for instance, in Ichigo Kurosaki's signature Getsuga Tensho, however, we do not translate that as "Deva piercing moon fang."  Sui get  su  22:34, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The difference here is that we're not talking about just the word 天, we're talking about the word 天道, which is a Chinese and Japanese Buddhist term specifically referring to the Deva Path, of the Six Paths, which are also known as the Samsara. 天道 is a Japanese translation of the sanskrit "deva-gati", or "Deva Path", a cycle of rebirth in the Samsara in which one is reincarnated as a deva into an existance of carnal pleasure and bliss, until they die and are again reborn in another Path. It's not just a couple of characters randomly thrown together to make a cool-sounding name, it's a term with an actual definition and etymology that you can be traced all the way back to when people wrote in sanskrit. Would you translate 地獄耳 as "ground prison ear" just because that's what the individual kanji mean when seperated? Because that's wrong, 地獄耳 means "sharp-eared", as in being able to hear well. Japanese words aren't just the literal meanings of the individual kanji jammed together. WtW-Suzaku (talk) 00:04, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * So if I can find one instance where 天道 is translated literally and not as Deva Path, my point is proven?  Sui get  su  16:15, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * What exactly is your point? That it's better to be literal than accurate? Would you translate 天才 as "heaven genius" instead of prodigy? Or translate 天然痘 as "heaven sort of pox" instead of variola? The fact is that words have meanings, and depriving them of their meanings for the sake of being as literal as possible doesn't make the article better. Yeah, you could translate 天道 as "Heaven Path", and you could also translate it as "Sky Road" or "Imperial Street", and many other things, but the fact is that 輪廻, 六道, 天道, 修羅道, 人間道, 畜生道, 餓鬼道, and 地獄道 are all Buddhist terms which have their own articles on wikipedia, with established English translations. 輪廻, 六道 are specific Buddhist terms, both referring to the samsara, also known as the six paths. The rest are the names of those six paths. 餓鬼道 and 修羅道, in fact, are so unique to Buddhism that Gaki redirects to Preta and the Shura disambiguation page links to the Asura (Buddhism) article, since they are supernatural creatures unique to Buddhism. I think the funniest thing about this argument is the fact that the six paths/六道 terminology I'm suggesting be used as the translations has been cross-linked back and forth between the Japanese and English language wikipedias since 2006.
 * My argument isn't that you can't translate them literally, it's that wikipedia already has established standards for the terminology in their Buddhism articles (some already even have redirects for the Japanese terms you're arguing about), and that we should follow the already established standards instead of trying to make up new translations, especially when the translations would be as big of a mischaracterization as "Demon Path" or "Ghost Path". WtW-Suzaku (talk) 01:35, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * No need to get defensive and accusatory.
 * "you could translate 天道 as "Heaven Path"
 * That is my point, and no amount of fan speculation or conjecture on your part can prove that Kishimoto meant "Deva Path." Who are you to say that Kishimoto didn't want it to be "Imperial Street," hm? 209.244.43.174 (talk) 02:23, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Because it's obvious. We IAR and move on. Drop the issue. — sephiroth bcr  ( converse ) 02:28, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Like when we IAR on all those other fan theories... whatever, we don't actually mention Heaven Realm in the article, so either way it's a moot point, and I can't believe I'm just noticing this :S  Sui get  su  03:53, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Someone is being an ignorant pile of *censored* here, and it isn't Suzaku... By all means, if you do not believe that "天道" is translated into "Deva Path" then I cannot really do anything about it, but why won't you go and waste your time disagreeing with everyone on the case of Tobi being Madara, just because he has identified and introduced himself as such? (It's still only fan-speculaion that he is until he has removed his mask after all)... And I can't help but noticing that while Suzaku has provided us with enough material to verify his statements, the only thing you've done is disagreeing with him, on no valid or verified grounds at all none the less. Can't really say that you have anything working in your favor here, can I? ... I vote in Suzaku's favor! 83.189.181.50 (talk) 20:36, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Old news. Don't try to bring back old conflicts, especially with a paragraph as painful to read as that thing. Also, nobody asked for any sort of vote from you or anyone. I don't know what you mean by "enough proof to verify his statements," because all he's really done is link a bunch of Buddhist information sites that say that it means Deva Path. I said earlier that if I wanted to, I could link a bunch of kanji dictionaries that say that it means "Heaven Path," but whatever, I'm not going to waste too much time on trolling diarrhea of the mouth from an IP user. 207.80.142.5 (talk) 18:27, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Are you just unable to accept the fact that you're wrong, are you miscontent by the choice of word/s or are you actually unable to see the context? Ah, doesn't matter, seeing as the general public've settled for "Deva" anyway. 83.189.179.162 (talk) 23:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * You do understand I stopped arguing about this before you entered the conversation? Drop the unwarranted self-importance and stop trolling. 207.80.142.5 (talk) 17:53, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
 * If you know anything about the Buddhist monk Tanzan, you'll reconsice these words and know their inner meaning. If not... Well, it never was my loss anyway... "I left the girl by the stream, are you still carrying her?" - Tanzan 83.189.179.167 (talk) 22:21, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
 * lol at the internet siddhartha gautama trying to be a prophet of buddhism. btw, nice contribs  Sui get  su  21:45, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Hidan "foul-mouthed"?
I changed it from "foul-mouthed" to "disrespectful" because he uses disrespectful honorifics. I believe somebody who watches Dattebayo's fansubs wrote that.Moocowsrule (talk) 06:44, 5 October 2008 (UTC)moocowsrule
 * No, that's been on there since before they got that far on the anime. He uses all sorts of profanities. In the future, do research before asserting stuff like that.  Sui get  su  16:41, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It really is more of just the rude speech pattern than actual profanities. People just translate it as profanities because it's easier to carry across rude speech patterns that way. The Splendiferous Gegiford (talk) 01:53, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * There are words which are considered vulgar enough that they're censored, but for that very reason, I'm pretty sure you wouldn't find them in a WSJ manga and definitely not in an anime broadcast like Naruto. Mostly, it's just that Japanese operates on levels of politeness, and what you see is a character being rude (not using proper honorifics, using informal words to refer to strangers, or intentionally using rude words). All the different variations of "you" are a good example: anata, anta, omae, temē, and kisama. They all just mean "you", nothing more, but there's a big difference between them. For example, you can refer to your buddies with omae, but it's rude to refer to a stranger with it, and using temē or kisama would be really rude to just about anyone. So, in order to get the meaning across in English, you have to take a bit of liberty, so you might see something like temē translated as, "you jerk", or kisama as, "you asshole". That's not what's literally being said in Japanese, but it's a way to get the rudeness across in English. WtW-Suzaku (talk) 04:35, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Isn't "kisama" usually translated as something like "bastard?" Either way, I think "rude" would better carry his personality across, although I personally like the various quotes you get by translating his rudeness with the profanities, such as "See ya, shitheads!" 207.80.142.5 (talk) 18:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I do think there are some words in Japanese used that are actual curses. Case in point, when Grimmjow tells Ulquiorra to "blow him" in Bleach. It's a really short sentence that couldn't really be translated in any other way; it's a single verb, if I recall correctly.  Sui get  su  21:44, 12 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It is much better to say rude rather than foulmouthed It's like a person saying "hey kid whas up" to professor. Also, Naruto can't really be comared to Bleach. Bleach is geared towards older teens while Naruto to a slightly younger crowd. Bleach uses foul language, while Naruto really doesn't.Yialanliu (talk) 22:56, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It's a matter of interpretation, but until he's got some official English dialogue it should be left as-is.

Killed Kakashi?
We can't keep jumping the gun without knowing if it's a fact or just a cliffhanger. Yes it seemed Kakashi is killed but we won't know the full facts until next issue, since it can't be confirmed nor denied it is better left unmentioned until we know the truth. Jiraiya's and Itachi's death were marked very clearly, thought when Killer Bee apparently mortally wounded Sasuke he is revived twice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.12.55.134 (talk) 02:02, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's only one week. We don't have to be that up to date Rekija (talk) 04:49, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * True. The kunai technically didn't hit Kakashi, so anyting could happen.  That is why WP:CRYSTAL exists. Sasuke9031 (talk) 04:56, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Amount of Akatsuki info
Does anybody else believe we have enough information on Akatsuki and it's members to justify a seperate article for them? It appears they are the only antagonists the series will see for quite some time. We can say a lot about Itachi and Madara, and a fair amount on Sasori, Konan, Deidara and maybe Kakuzu. I just feel like if we spoke about the characters a bit more in depth and outlined their abilities then it would easily constitute an article. Frequen-Z (talk) 22:02, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Akatsuki had an article. It didn't work out, so now they're here. ~SnapperTo 22:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Reception
I was trying to collect reception information (here), but found almost nothing about Deidara and newer characters like Uchiha Madara. Any ideas about possible sources? -- DEERSTOP ( talk ). 19:01, 4 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Its something pretty hard. All the reception information we normally have is from reviews of English products and Madara does not appear until vol 31 and only makes something important around vol. 43. I think that in Anime News Network there is a good review of volume 28, I dont know if it has something about Akatsuki.Tintor2 (talk) 20:09, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You mean ? -- DEERSTOP ( talk ). 19:40, 5 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Yep. There is something about Deidara. By the way, good work.Tintor2 (talk) 23:39, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks.) Okay, I'll try to look through ANN reviews. -- DEERSTOP ( talk ). 10:25, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Nothing. -_- Several words about Sasori, but that's all I could find. -- DEERSTOP ( talk ). 14:51, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

hidan's death
Is it safe to say that Hidan is dead?. Because his head is obviously crushed underneath all that rubble and even an immortal would be considered dead. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.217.3.140 (talk) 20:24, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * He is dead if you've ever read or seen translations of Naruto Data Book 3. He needs to kill to stay immortal. But until a officially translated version comes out I'm not sure if it's going to be put. DaisukeVulgar (talk) 21:30, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Sound Genin
I came to this article from List of Naruto episodes (seasons 1-2) and the Sound Genin section has altogether disappeared. Consider re-adding? They're extremely minor characters but still.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ShineSilver (talk • contribs) 13:46, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism
There is vandalism on Konan's biography. I think that this article should be locked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mwolvesto50 (talk • contribs) 04:59, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Danzo...
I noticed that when I typed his name, it redirected here.

He might deserve a paragraph here now, and almost certainly will eventually.

I know there's a couple rules saying a fictional character has to be significant to be listed on wikipedia, but if he isn't yet I bet he will be later.

Should we add something about what he's already done, or wait till he does something even more outrageously antagonistic, and harmful to the good guys? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.111.102.73 (talk) 06:19, 8 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think he have too much to say on him other then he's a shifty fellow and he doesn't want Naruto to be anywhere near Konoha right now. You're right though, once Akatsuki are dealt with in the long run he will probably become a real antagonist. Frequen-Z (talk) 13:18, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, he states outright that he wants to overthrow, (probably meaning kill) Tsunade. He certainly doesn't mind killing to achieve this, he certainly doesn't mind lettting Konoha get blasted to rubble, as long as he has enough people to rebuild it. He prevented Naruto from coming back, which might have saved Chouza, if Naruto had reverse-summoned back to Konoha quickly enough. He's also probably the first person to kill a toad summon in the series. I don't know whether or not for sure: it's kind of ambiguous whether Gamaken survives the fight with Pain. (Or is there another dead toad I was forgetting?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.111.105.245 (talk) 06:20, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

It is better to wait until something big happens. As it stands he is will certainly play a big role as an Antagonist, however, there is not enough proof to put him on this page. Though I have a strong personal dislike towards the nobility rule that causes only major characters to be listed, I prefer to wait until this happens though I don't have to completely like it. I hope those who can understand would know how I feel. -67.171.250.39 (talk) 07:21, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * We try not to be preemptive with things. It stands to reason that Danzo, and possibly Killer Bee, will get their own sections eventually, but they need to earn them first. If Danzo's coup is successful he'll get his own section, probably at List of Naruto characters. ~SnapperTo 21:34, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Got it. I give that two weeks at the most, though. Maybe we should put him in the Hokage section, and put a link to his mention there in the antagonist list, if he ends up qualifying for both. By the way, how big are we talking? Does he have to off Tsunade, or will Shizune or Konohamaru do it?


 * He doesn't need to off anyone. He needs to wait for Pain to do the offing, and then valiantly come to Konoha's rescue.
 * Then Sai will off Danzo for being a bad person. Then Sasuke will off Sai for looking like him. Then Naruto will off Sasuke for stealing his series. Then Chiyo will un-off Sasuke while re-offing herself. Then everyone will be happy. ~SnapperTo 04:43, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Wait, what? That makes no sense. But yeah, he's probably going to wait for Pain to do a whole lot of damage, and might not have to be any more antagonistic than he already has been. (He killed the poor toad! What did the toad ever do to him!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.111.105.245 (talk) 14:55, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Don't mind my inane theorization of what might happen. It's something I do from time to time. And don't dwell on the death of a toad; dwell instead on when Sasuke used Manda as a shield in 363, or the chameleon-thing that Ma and Pa killed in 376, or the centipede Sakura whooped in 421. Those ares summons worthy of compassion. ~SnapperTo 20:34, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I was joking about the toad. But still... he has killed a good guy, and is kind planning to take over, by allowing/causing Tsunade to die. Anyway, the real reason the toad dying is a shock? Jiraya and Naruto tend not to treat toads like expendable commodities, the way Sasuke and Orochimaru treated the snakes, and the way Pain seems to be treating his summons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.111.105.245 (talk) 07:39, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Anyone notice that Pain's summons also have chakra reciever body piercings and the Rinnigan? Taking reference to the fact that the Six Paths of Pain, which also have chakra reciever body piercings and the Rinnegan, are technically undead, being reanimated corpses, that could mean that Pain's summons are undead too, in the same fashion as Pain is. 142.26.133.248 (talk) 16:17, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

WOW! Okay, I don't think Danzo's ever getting onto that list at this point.

Nor do I expect Pain to leave it any time soon... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.111.105.245 (talk) 03:34, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Pain is Nagato
Konan directly states "Don't! That technique will shorten your lifespan! So you're determined to do it... Nagato." Although it's been kind of obvious that Nagato was the one controlling the six corpses comprising Pain, it's finally been confirmed, so we should put that down that the true Pain is Nagato. 142.26.133.248 (talk) 16:11, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Quit saying Pain looks cool
Quit saying Pain looks cool, it does not belong here. --24.74.41.41 (talk) 04:31, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If Kishimoto says he looks cool (refer to ref) then it does belong. ~SnapperTo 04:34, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That's still not encyclopedic. See WP:SOAP and WP:NOTOPINION . Saying something is cool, no matter who said it, violates WP:NPOV as not everyone sees it that way, also the source is WP:COI . Besides, the idea of adding that anyone thinks that anything is "cool", fails Notability . --MahaPanta (talk) 09:16, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If the author wants a character to look "cool" and gives that character design elements to achieve that goal, then it is notable. Your other four bits of link spam do not apply. ~SnapperTo 20:26, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Opinions are never notable. --69.132.123.243 (talk) 01:38, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:SOURCES. -- DEERSTOP ( talk ). 01:45, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Then I hope you never read an article on a movie, book, or video game. Those tend to be plagued with "Reception" sections where various opinions are collected. Terrible things they are. ~SnapperTo 05:17, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I have, and there it's fine because they're not meant to be encyclopedic. Wikipdia is not a news article. Wikipedia is not a review. Wikipedia is not a news source. --24.74.41.41 (talk) 07:36, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You didn't even bother looking, did you? Behold: Wikipedia video game opinions, Wikipedia movie opinions, Wikipedia book opinions, Wikipedia anime opinions, Wikipedia list of characters opinions. You are in the minority here, as nobody shares your opinion (which apparently you shouldn't be giving anyway). ~SnapperTo 19:31, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Offensive lannguage is not welcomed on Wikipedia. WP:troll--24.74.41.41 (talk) 00:02, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you're mistaking "share", a harmless word from the English lexicon, with "Cher", one of the seven eight dirty words. Homophones are easy to confuse; the number of dates I ruined by misunderstanding tit for tat! But seriously, calling me a troll really got your point across. I admit defeat. ~SnapperTö 04:41, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Kishimoto didn't say "Pain is cool". He said "I designed piercings to make him look cool". -- DEERSTOP ( talk ). 01:49, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If that's notable then you have to edit every character he designed, because he has said something simular about all of them. --24.74.41.41 (talk) 07:31, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Like this? If Kishimoto has said something about the character then it is present in that character's section/article, such as the second sentence of List of Naruto antagonists. ~SnapperTo 19:31, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you meant this, but in essence you are correct. Sections like that demonstrate notability, and the reason why a lot of characters in lists do not have this is because they did not demonstrate notability back when they were individual articles, and thus were merged into the lists. Sasuke9031 (talk) 22:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * This argument has gone on far enough really, Kishimoto has said he drew Pain's piercings to make him look cool, and judging by what has been put for both Sasuke and Konan, it seems notable. If it's not we may as well go ahead and delete what has been said for both of them, and every other aspect of certain characters Kishimoto has commented upon. DaisukeVulgar (talk) 22:49, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Fine, I will.--24.74.41.41 (talk) 00:02, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You keep deleting that info without an argument.Tintor2 (talk) 00:10, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * My argument is that just because he say's a character looks cool does not make it notable. We can't add every comment this guy has ever made. Just because this artist has a big ego when it comes to his characters, this does not mean it belongs here. He boosts about all of his characters. Since when has Wikipedia become such a soapbox?--24.74.41.41 (talk) 00:15, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * A creator saying his character looks cool is one thing. A creator saying that he modeled a character's design on the premise of looking cool is quite another. Learn the difference. — sephiroth bcr  ( converse ) 00:21, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * That's still just another artist on a soapbox, trying to make fans happy. His premise of looking cool is not the same as the next person's view on the premise of looking cool, so it's not notable enough. It's too frivolous. --24.74.41.41 (talk) 00:26, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Doesn't really matter whether we consider it cool or not. If that's what drove his design, then it's piece of information that should be included. Drop the issue. You don't have any consensus to remove it and should you continue to do so, you will be blocked from editing. — sephiroth bcr  ( converse ) 00:29, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Doesn't really matter whether the artist considers it cool or not either.--24.74.41.41 (talk) 01:15, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If an artists's opinion doesn't matter, then whose opinion matters? Yours? -- DEERSTOP ( talk ). 14:12, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Nobody's opinion matters in an encyclopedia.--MahaPanta (talk) 22:46, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Really? Then what material Reception section consists of? -- DEERSTOP ( talk ). 13:50, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, to sum everything up here, you (the ip) made an edit that you thought could improve the encyclopedia, and it was reverted. By bringing it here, you followed WP:BRD. Admirable, but that's where things went downhill. From there, you made it clear that you thought that saying Pain was cool did not belong in an encyclopedia. OK, but we, the established editors, said that your argument was invalid because Kishimoto did not say that he thought that Pain was cool, he said that he designed him to be cool. Does it really matter if people think he's cool? You're right, it doesn't. Does it matter if he was designed to look cool? Yes, it does, because that is outside information beyond the scope of Naruto itself. Character design has been a staple of notability in practice since I created my account, and unless something happens to the new WP:FICT proposal and/or on a higher level, WP:N, this is going to continue to be the case. Sasuke9031 (talk) 04:31, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * It still seems redundant to me because most artists design villians to look cool. It's in every how to draw book I've ever seen. I can't think of a single villian that wasn't designed to be cool that isn't in a comedy. My point is, I think it is only notable if the artist intended to do something different. Yes character design is important, but you don't have to list the things taken for granted like the character has two eyes, two ears, a nose, etc. Villians are nomally designed to be cool. Unless you're going to add every little detail, this is frivolous information. The character's name is Pain, we expect him to be designed to look cool. Now if he was designed to be a scrappy like character, that would be notable.--MahaPanta (talk) 08:37, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Who says all villains were designed to be cool? Here, Kishimoto says he designed villains to be the opposites from the good guys. His only mention of cool villain was the one Pain's design. Nobody has said that all villains from every series are cool. That seems more a fan opinion.Tintor2 (talk) 14:59, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Fan opinion? Did you even read what I typed? I never said all villains were designed to be cool. I just said a majority are designed to be cool from the point of view of the artist that drew them. I've read many books that can be used for a source on that.


 * "Kishimoto says he designed villains to be the opposites from the good guys."
 * That is notable, since it's less common. --MahaPanta (talk) 22:46, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * "I never said all villains were designed to be cool." Yes you did. You quite clearly stated that you'd never seen a villain designed otherwise (with the exception of comedy). Frequen-Z (talk) 19:38, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


 * But who was the guy who stated that most villains were designed to be cool? And what right do we have that to say that part of conception is unnotable? Kishimoto almost never says that one of his characters designs are cool.Tintor2 (talk) 23:08, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

You seriously think that Akira Toriyama designed Majin Buu to be "cool?" Anyways, the notable aspect here is not that he thinks Pain looks cool, but that that is what purpose the piercings serve. In other words, it's creation/conception info, which is generally what you want in articles. 70.138.167.143 (talk) 05:30, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Madara vandalism
A little snot edited the beginning of the article saying unverified stuff concerning the fact that Tobi isn't Madara but Obito, and then proceeded to call anyone disagreeing an ignorant idiot. I'm new at contributing to Wikipedia, but I'm pretty sure he's doing it wrong. Therefore, I'll be removing his tripe now. Paireon (talk) 20:20, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That is the best choice of action. Tobi being Madara is mentioed in the work of fiction itself so it clearly takes proiroty over a fan's opinion. Unless the theory that Tobi is actually Obito is covered by muliple reliable secondary sources mentioning it at all is OR and should be reverted on site especially since it directely contrdicts the work of fiction itself. --76.66.187.206 (talk) 21:13, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Kabuto vandalism
"Kabuto Yakushi (薬師 カブト Yakushi Kabuto?) is Orochimaru's foremost servantand he is a big loserwho likes boys. " Does anyone remember what the original line said
 * Most likely "Kabuto Yakushi (薬師 カブト Yakushi Kabuto?) is Orochimaru's foremost servant." 142.26.133.248 (talk) 15:03, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Pain needs his own page
THere has been enough time now. We have enough information about Pain, he now needs his own page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SuperSaiyaMan (talk • contribs) 20:33, 19 December 2008 (UTC)


 * We have enough information, the question is, do we have enough out of universe info, such that it would satisfy WP:N? Right now, the answer is no, but if someone could find some sources, that would be awesome. Sasuke9031 (talk) 20:36, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Also adding to that in case there is any confusion as to what qualifys as out of universe info. What we need specifically is information regarding the creation/concept of the character and cfritical reception of the character from reliable sources (ie not forums blogs etc). --76.71.215.74 (talk) 04:55, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Given that the English Shippuden anime is just about to air, we can expect some sources to pop up soon enough. The creation/conception for Pain seems straightforward: piercings to look cool, Buddhist references everywhere. 70.138.167.143 (talk) 05:34, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Given the latest chapter (436) and absolute confirmation on who Pain is, what his goals are and how he operates, I think a page on him is a necessity. Frequen-Z (talk) 22:52, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Notibility guildlines however, state that we need coverage from multiple non-trivial coverage from secondary sources first. The work of fiction itself does not count. Plot importance alone is not enough for an article and any attempt to make an article at this point will be reverted fast. If you have some secondary sources that significally cover Pain can you please present them. --70.24.177.38 (talk) 00:22, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Would the third Databook's information be enough info to warrant his own page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by SuperSaiyaMan (talk • contribs) 20:44, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Possibily, but I doubt it for the time being. Most articles that have not been mreged also include critical reception of the character which is unlikely to be mentioned there.--76.66.184.74 (talk) 19:48, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Is Pain (Nagato) gonna pull an Itachi and give Naruto some of his power to stop Madara? If he does, I think I can see where this is heading now... 142.26.133.248 (talk) 15:02, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Konan
theres too little on konan compared to the other akatsuki members. we should a little more info on her.Linder1990 (talk) 17:31, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Considering she has a few appearances in the series and that the plot is more focused in Pain than Konan, there is not much to say about her.Tintor2 (talk) 19:40, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, she does seem to worry about pain, and doesnt seem to be very cruel compared to the other akatsuki members. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.249.176.77 (talk) 15:29, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Was it directly mentioned in the manga that she cared for Pain or that she was seen as being especially crule. If not it would be a case of analysis and it will have to be mentioned by reliable sources before it can be included. If not, it will be removed as original research. --76.65.140.127 (talk) 22:09, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

ok then, though its pretty obvious she does care for pain seeing as how she tells pain not to use a jutsu that shortens his life and also to not over do it when nagato was revealed in the wheelchair or whatever it was.

also i believe we could give her a more detail on her past and show in the differences of her in the past and her in the present.Haseo445 (talk) 16:02, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Konan
is it ok to say konan has a number of piercings too? she one under her lip, another on her nose, and a few on her ears —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.36.118.229 (talk) 21:00, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Compared to Pain's piercings, Konan's are too insignificant. Lots of girls get body piercings. 142.26.133.248 (talk) 16:18, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Haku
the article fails to mention that in Japan, Haku is indeed a women. And that supposively America gender-bent her. Weird, huh? Well anyway i got this from a pretty reliable sorse but if im wrong, feel free to say so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.116.184.175 (talk) 00:04, 2 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Americanization would only result in Haku being genderfied from a boy to a girl. Ur sorce is boguz. ~SnapperTo 03:09, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Sasuke is not a bad guy!
You're just reading the latest issues... if you read most of the series, he's a good guy and he's going to end up that way again. In any case he's the most popular character and he's not "evil" in any sense. So please remove him from this section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.231.178.153 (talk) 14:35, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This is an antognist article not a villian article. An antognist is someone who is oppostion to the protagnists (main character) and Sasuske clearly meets that criteria so he is staying.--76.69.170.238 (talk) 04:21, 6 June 2009 (UTC)
 * To add to that. He was also working with Orachimaru long before the latest issues came out and he has infact been listed as an Antognist for quite some time. This is not a case of someone reading the latest issues. Also, cliaming that he will become good again is original research and is not permitted.--76.65.140.128 (talk) 23:20, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

kimimaru
The above character is not in the list. Please add him. If I rememeber correctly he possesses the gek-a-gen-kai (high bone density tissue) NarSakSasLee (talk) 14:29, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * List of Naruto antagonists. ~SnapperTo 15:42, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

How come he's listed in the Sound Four? There were only 4 members that were killed by Shikamarus team. He was seperate and wanted to kill the Sound Four. NarSakSasLee (talk) 18:09, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Blame Orochimaru for that one. He made Kimimaro a sound four member long before the series started, and long before the dude got sick. Sasuke9031 (talk) 20:42, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah but my quarrel is why is he listed there? I really don't think he was a sound four member in the first place. NarSakSasLee (talk) 22:35, 22 June 2009 (UTC)


 * He joined the Sound Four and they became the Sound Five, he then became bedridden so they became the Sound Four once more. If you read/watched it properly, you'd know this. DaisukeVulgar (talk) 22:45, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Really? Where is that mentioned? I mean in the episode line. NarSakSasLee (talk) 08:50, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Umm, Sasuke retrieval arc ep... oh man I can't remember. It's the one where Orochimaru absorbs that one random dude... I think. Sasuke9031 (talk) 08:54, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I can't give an exact episode, but manga-wise it is Volume 23, Chapter 201 of Naruto. DaisukeVulgar (talk) 14:02, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks I'll check it out. Watching the anime I find it strange I don't remember it. NarSakSasLee (talk) 16:08, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * In case you hadn't noticed, this is explained in the lead of the Sound Four section. ~SnapperTo 17:25, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I know I read it after this but I don't trust wikipedia that much yet. I'd rather have definitive proof. I have the manga volumes and I re-reading that section. NarSakSasLee (talk) 17:32, 23 June 2009 (UTC)


 * As long as you can see when it's mindless vandalism, you'll probably be able to tell the truth from the lies. DaisukeVulgar (talk) 19:08, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

English version "Taka" or "Hawk"?
I'm not really up-to-date with the English releases, so bear with me. In the English version of the manga, is "Taka" still in its Japanese form or is it translated to "Hawk" (Same goes for "Hebi" and "Snake")? 75.157.116.253 (talk) 04:33, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * The Japanese names are used. Pain's paths are in the same boat, but I think there's somewhat of a loss in understanding when those are left untranslated. ~SnapperTo 04:39, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

A separate article for Akatsuki?
I think Akatsuki should have it's own article since it's an entire organization, and should only have a brief mention here and a link to the full article. There it could have a more detailed explanation of it's plans, movements, and history.


 * WP:NOTE my friend. I thought so too, but there just wasn't enough reception to warrant a single article.  Plus, all that plan, movement, histroy, etc... fails WP:NOT. Sasuke9031 (talk) 07:47, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Madara should have his own article as he is the lead villain of the series and the mastermind behind everything that has happened thus far... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.137.11.54 (talk) 22:38, 13 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Importance in the series is not a reason to give him an article. Naruto, Sasuke and all the other characters that have an article pass WP:Notability and Madara doesn't.Tintor2 (talk) 01:28, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Madara 'former' Mizukage?
Under Tobi's section it states he was the former Mizukage, but the SleepyFans scanlation doesn't have the word former (or anything like it) at all. The claim 'former' Mizukage is backed up by the most recent chapter where we see Mizukage as a blonde woman, but most readers can appreciate that that doesn't stand for much as appearances can and have been faked in a number of ways. Frequen-Z (talk) 20:17, 4 July 2009 (UTC)


 * "Former" is added for the volume release. ~SnapperTo 21:26, 4 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah I see. I also found it rather suspicious since the Mizukage has hidden her right eye so far which is the only one Madara has shown. Ah well. Frequen-Z (talk) 23:51, 4 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, but how is it possible for the mizukage to be there when just a chapter prior, Madara was berating Sasuke? Unless he had some combo of transformation and Instant Transmission, it's just not possible. Sasuke9031 (talk) 01:10, 5 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Zetsu remarked how fast Tobi could travel just after the Sasuke/Itachi fight. Frequen-Z (talk) 08:31, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

Dude, Madara isn't the current Mizukage. He was Mizukage when Kisame left his village, that much is true. It's more likely that upon taking the role as leader of Akatsuki, he relieved himself of being Mizukage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.159.47 (talk) 19:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

In the newest chapter, the current Mizukage remarked on how the Fourth Mizukage's dark reign is over now. It's likely that she was referring to Madara and he was the Fourth Mizukage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.229.89.202 (talk) 17:43, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Speeking of Madara... I never was one of those "Madara = Obito" or "Madara = Danzo" people, but Danzo has just been revealed to have the Sharingan in his right eye. Madara's mask covers his entire face except for his right eye, and they have similar hair styles, wrinkles, and eyebrows (Madara's are seen when he takes his mask off to show Sasuke his Sharingan).  I'm not saying it's true, but maybe Danzo's impersonating Madara (who quite possibly did die in the battle with the First, or at any other point) to gain control of everything, or maybe he took one of eyes of an Uchiha member after the massacre.  We've never seen Danzo do anything other than boss Sai around and try to become Hokage through illegal means, so it's possible.  I dunno what Danzo's Sharingan means, and no-one will until it's revealed in the manga. 75.157.124.3 (talk) 15:03, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

It said in chapter 458 that Yagura (the three-tails host) was the fourth mizukage —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.71.42.39 (talk) 01:45, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Pein's Plan
What chapter does Pein reveal his plans to Hidan? Its the same chapter where Hidan states that he is a new member. Thanks! 68.197.237.248 (talk) 23:58, 22 November 2009 (UTC) 好像不错哦 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.111.102.241 (talk) 07:53, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Where is Gaara and the sand?????
What a glaring omission. Yeah I know they are no longer antagonists but Gaara was arguably the second biggest antagonist of the first half of the series (next to orochimaru). I think Gaara was even mentioned specifically by Kishimoto as an antagonist designed to be opposed to Naruto Just because he became a protagonist later doesn't mean he shouldn't be included, as both Zabuza/Haku and Pain evolved to become good characters too. Just make a note that it was the pretimeskip Gaara that was an antagonist, and not after his battle with Naruto and all will be well. Surcer (talk) 02:23, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Pain
The six paths of Pain article only mentions five and totally leaves out one of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.132.203.250 (talk) 21:45, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * That problem has been fixed. Spindori (talk) 16:23, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Also regarding Pain, why aren't the names in the English serialization used here? For example, Tendo Pain is here as Deva Pain. Are the ones on this page not WP:OR since they were never officially translated that way in the manga? Spindori (talk) 16:23, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Madara's Master Plan
Madara's come out. He's just revealed what his master plans, and I think that that requires a complete overhall of 1/2, if not all, the Naruto section to incorperate this (what with the 10-Tailed Beast, the Moon's Eye Plan, etc.), and nominate Mr. Uchiha for his own page. 75.157.107.206 (talk) 07:05, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Not knowing his plan I can't comment on most of the overhall idea but I can say that giving Madara his own page is unlikely. The problem is that the main thing we need is not plot imporatnce but sources that cover his creation and concept and most importantally critical reception of the character. Without that any article created would likely be merged back quickly.--76.66.188.203 (talk) 06:52, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Pain and Madara need their own section
They both were critical to the manga and influential in why Naruto and Sasuke are the way they are today. They are the two major antagonists of Part 2 as well.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 23:33, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * By section do you mean their own articles or breaking them away form the Akatsuki section of this article? Either way I don't think it would work. A break form the organization section does not make much sense since every chararater is mentioned in a section for their group. Even Sasuke does not have his own section and he is one the main characters. A seperate article will also not be fesable at this time since the most important things we need for that is infomation on their creation and concept and critical reception of the character. Plot importance may play a role but the other two especially reception is more important.--76.66.182.126 (talk) 03:09, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Contridiction in the sound four section
The Sound Four section contains a sentence that appears to contrdict itself. '''The group was originally known as the "Sound Five", as they were forced to accept Kimimaro as the leader after he defeated the entire group in battle. After Kimimaro became bedridden due to his illness, the group resumed calling themselves the Sound Four.''' The problem is if the first part is correct the team could not resume using the name Sound Four since it would have been called the Sound Five from it original creation to the time Kimimaro was bedridden. Also, if the second part is correct the original name would be Sound Four and not Sound Five. Can someone please clarify?--76.66.190.127 (talk) 03:48, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Recent plot developments
I put in the information that Sasuke impaled Karin with a chidori sword to kill Danzo, but that information seems to have been deleated from the page. Why so? 142.26.194.190 (talk) 17:58, 29 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Because Wikipedia is not the place to put in the most recent plot developments. The character descriptions are suppose to provide a general overview of each character and describe their role in the story line. They are not to give a chapter by chapter summary of the character's actions. —Farix (t &#124; c) 21:52, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * True, but this does mark a significant change in Sasuke's role within the story: him fully embracing the part of the villain. As well, Danzo is dead, which is in itself of great significance to the story.  Note, I agree that a "blow-by-blow" description of Sasuke's fight with Danzo is not  needed, but I feel it is worth mentioning that he murdered one of his comrades for the sake of his revenge. 142.26.194.190 (talk) 17:20, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The fight isn't even over yet. How do we know who was killed? Both characters were still alive at the end of the chapter. Whether the events show a change in Sasuke's role is also a personal interpretation especially the part where you claim "he murdered one of his comrades for the sake of his revenge." None of this should be in the article until there are reliable sources stating exactly that. —Farix (t &#124; c) 17:40, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, but Karin, whether alive or dead at the time, was caught in Danzo's suicide technique. It destroyed a large amount of the area where the fight took place and she was in close proximity to him when he used it. Now both of them are dead, and Sasuke doesn't care about her fate at all.  He even said "When you were taken hostage you became a liability to me." 142.26.194.190 (talk) 15:56, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Given the series's notorious history of misdirection, it doesn't hurt to wait to see the end results. Details can be added when the results are conclusive and we get a broader prospective on their importance instead of what we precise or assume happened. In other words, I still wouldn't call Danzo's or Karin's fates just yet, or put much into the apparent meaning of Sasuke's words. (Why would she became a liability instead of expendable if Sasuke really didn't care about her fate?) —Farix (t &#124; c) 17:15, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * True, true. Maybe Karin survived.  Maybe she didn't.  Danzo's definitely dead; the title of the latest chapter even says so.  As for "Why would she became a liability instead of expendable if Sasuke really didn't care about her fate?", I would say Karin being a liability and being expendable are the same thing in this case.  At any rate, Sasuke did shish kebab her with a chidori sword with a grin on his face, so it seems, to me at least, he's lost all sentiment towards his allies and is 100% focused on revenge against Konoha.  75.157.110.77 (talk) 01:57, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Sasuke may have lost his sentiments, but that's unimportant for Karin for now.Tintor2 (talk) 16:49, 10 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow... you were right. She is still alive, if only barely.  I guess what's important for her is whether Sakura will heal her or leave her to die, is what you're saying. BTW, would you consider that saying that her "unhealthy obsession" with Sasuke began when they met during the Chunin exams is worth putting in the article?  75.157.110.77 (talk) 13:45, 11 February 2010 (UTC)
 * In cases like this it may be better to wait for some weeks to see some developments in what happens. Similar to what happened with Sakura's confession.Tintor2 (talk) 16:07, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

As I said before, given the series's notorious history of using misdirection, it doesn't hurt to wait to see the end results. It's better for Wikipedia to not be up-to-date but accurate than for it to be up-to-date but inaccurate. —Farix (t &#124; c) 18:15, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Kabuto's Motives Involving Sasuke are Recorded Wrongly
The article has it wrong. Kabuto says nothing to Madara about killing Sasuke. What is said is: Madara: "What are you plotting?"; Kabuto: "...nothing at all... I am simply interested in discovering the truth behind ninjutsus.  And for that I need Sasuke-kun, that's all.  I want a live, young Uchiha." Chapter 490, pgs 2-3. The article needs to be changed to summarize this. 75.157.115.154 (talk) 05:38, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Taka is no More
Sasuke's joined Akatsuki, Karin was "arrested" by Konoha, and Jugo and Suigetsu were (as far as we know) arrested by the Land of Iron. I therefore suggest we move Sasuke from Taka to the Akatsuki section, and the same with Kabuto, seeing as after Orochimaru's death the Sound Village is no more and he joined the Akatsuki in chapter 490. 75.157.115.154 (talk) 18:33, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

Other antagonists

 * 1) What about Gato? Arguably the only true antagonist of the first arc he was the one technically driving the whole plot.(Could be parred up with Zabuza and Haku and the section renamed Land of Waves Antagonists)
 * 2) Also, do Dosu and the other two sound genin warrant a mention? They were pretty significant during the Chunin Exam arc.(Could easily fit into Sound village section) You could even just include a subsection there entitled "Chunin Exam plants" and include Yori(sp?) and the other guy whose bends a lot on top of Dosu and the others.
 * 3) Should temporary antagonists get a small mention in the Other Antagonists section? People such as the sand village ninja(particularly Gaara), and even Neji, Sai, Chiyo(well she would be a stretch).(Maybe a section titled "Temporary Antagonists" could be added?)
 * 4) No mention of Root at all? Danzo is in my mind one of the biggest bad guys of the series.
 * 5) Probably not worth a mention, but what do you guys think of the very first antagonist? You know, that guy with the ridiculously large shuriken on his back who tricked Naruto into stealing the scroll of sealing in the very first episode, then tried to kill him and Iruka.
 * 6) Hanzo of the Salamander. He did evil stuff. Was an antagonist to the Sanin as well as producing Pain by working alongside with Danzo to betray them.
 * 7) Edit:Forgot one:The Nine-tailed Fox. He's pretty evil, and Naruto has to deal with him internally with his attempts to seduce him with power and hatred. Sort of an internal antagonist(on top of the external evil things that he did). For that matter Shukaku could be mentioned if we wanted to create a "Tailed Beasts" section.

Thoughts?Wikiposter0123 (talk) 07:49, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Madara
I added to his section that he killed Naruto's mom to get the fox, as revealed in chapter 500. 75.157.120.15 (talk) 18:37, 1 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the part about Madara being a founder of Akatsuki should be removed. Madara has been Akatsuki's benefactor but he was never a founder or part of Akatsuki officially until he joined under as Tobi. Para29 (talk) 07:49, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
 * He's stated that he was a founder of Akatsuki alongside Pain, and later that Akatsuki was his idea and that Yakhio appropriated it. 142.26.194.190 (talk) 17:02, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Tobi's identity
I know that Tobi's true identity is widely accepted to be Madara Uchiha at this point, and Wikipedia is not the place for speculation, but is it not worth mentioning the widespread theory that Tobi isn't Madara at all? Kabuto refers to him as Tobi, consciously refusing to refer to him as Madara, before showing Tobi the mystery corpse. There is considerable evidence that Tobi may actually be Obito Uchiha. Noow I'm not suggesting we rewrite the entire article, I just wondered weather some remark as to the uncertainty of Tobi's identity should be made. Also, it may be a good idea to split the sections for Tobi and the historical Madara into seperate sections untill the issue is cleared up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.160.101.236 (talk) 21:33, 9 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Not a place for the Obito theory per WP:Original Research. Up until now, Akatsuki and himself have referred to him as Madara Uchiha, and the same name will be kept unless there is a revelation that he is not Madara.Tintor2 (talk) 21:39, 9 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Besides, you seem to be overlooking the point that it probably is Madara inhabiting Obito's body(like Orochimaru's resurrection jutsu). I mean, do you really think the clumsy Obito, after having half of his body being crushed under a rock, having his eye removed, and deep within enemy territory, somehow managed to escape only to use everybody elses belief that he is dead to assume the identity of Madara Uchiha and begin leading an evil international syndicate? I don't think so.Wikiposter0123 (talk) 07:18, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
 * If Madara was Obito he would only have one eye. In chapter 510, Madara was revealed to have two fully functioning eyes, but sacrificed the left one to use Izanagi.  Therefore, Madara is not Obito.  207.216.208.68 (talk) 17:09, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Updates
Several things have ocurred in chapter 510: The fight between Madara and Konan has concluded with Konan's defeat. Madara copied the 1st Hokage's techniques during their final battle, and he also sealed his left eye to use Izanagi when escaping Konan's sea of paper-bombs. Nagato has been revealed to be part of the Uzumaki clan, so I think that his surname should be added to the section. I noticed many of these updates had been put in place in a grammatically incorrect fashion, so I merely changed them. Why remove them? 207.216.208.68 (talk) 16:56, 16 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Information was misplaced; the list is not a place for plot summaries, Nagato was never named "Nagato Uzumaki" like how Kimimaro was never named Kimimaro Kaguya, the nihongo doesn't reflect it and Madara still hasn't obtained the Rinnegan.Tintor2 (talk) 21:46, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand about Nagato, but what do you mean about "Information was displaced" and plot summaries? If that is true, than this article nneds a vast amount of reworking because much of the so-called information in this article is plot summary.  I never said Madara has the Rinnegan, just expanded on his abilities and said that he beat Konan.  And Madara did state that Nagato was descended from the Uzumaki clan.  207.216.208.68 (talk) 22:17, 16 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the mispell. It happens to me a lot. The point is that this article has to show the character's most notable traits such as Madara's alliances or enemies and not what they do chapter by chapter.Tintor2 (talk) 22:32, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Point taken, but Konan does count as one of Madara's enemies now. I guess we could leave it as is, but I still think we should mention he has the First Hokage's powers (probably best situated up where it says they fought) and can use Izanagi in his powers summary.  207.216.208.68 (talk) 22:44, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The fact about the enemies I pointed it out because he was already declared an enemy from all the ninja which is more suitable than commenting on Danzo, Naruto and other. The Izanagi could be mentioned there, but in a small sentence easy to understand.Tintor2 (talk) 22:48, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. 207.216.208.68 (talk) 22:54, 16 September 2010 (UTC)