Talk:List of National Historic Landmarks in Virginia

Deletion: NO
Should this list be deleted and replaced with an automatically updated categoy list? VirginiaProp 01:33, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe. It does have the date each one was added to the registry, which is a little bit more info than is contained in the category.-- Kubigula (talk) 01:34, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
 * There is now a "Category:National Historic Landmarks in Virginia" which complements this list. Per general guidelines about lists and categories, it is entirely appropriate to have both this list and the category.  This list-article articulates with List of National Historic Landmarks by state and is here to stay. doncram (talk) 03:33, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Cedar Creek and Belle Grove National Historical Park
Is this actually an NHL?--Appraiser (talk) 23:43, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes it is. There is currently one too many site listed for the number of NHLs in the state, but this is not the problem one. Have to create articles for them all, and it will emerge. doncram (talk) 03:33, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Quality rating as an article
As with other list-articles of NHLs included in WP:NRHP, this is to be rated as an article, until it can be put up for Featured List. For now, it is a Stub, by the simple definition that this is a Stub until every NHL on the list has a Stub article. doncram (talk) 03:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Later upgraded to Start for wp:NRHP. Just now upgraded to C-Class for NRHP, for it meeting Lvklock's review during 4th of July cleanup drive.  Main criterion:  there is separate article for each NHL, with mention, source of NHL-ness. doncram (talk) 22:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Alexandria Historic District
Lvklock pointed out that there was a problem with links to NRHP text/photo documents for Alexandria Historic District, the first NHL on the list. My bad, i had put in links and not tested them I guess. Maybe it was when the NPS website was down? Anyhow, those docs are just not available on-line in the NPS system, it turns out. I dunno, are you willing to request the hard copies from the NPS, and work from them? Certainly okay to say no, and perhaps eventually someone else might do so. Not sure I want to either. Again, sorry about the bad links, i have removed them now. doncram (talk) 04:22, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * But I noticed KudzuVine was including links to the Virginia DHR copies of other NRHP nomination forms, and checked there. So I was able to add a copy of the NRHP nomination form for Alexandria Historic District, and other useful items such as a link to a map of the district, at VA DHR.  I hope you may go ahead and develop the article using these new sources. doncram (talk) 13:08, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

NRHP.COM listing of NHLs
Clariosophic pointed out to me that NRHP.COM's listings indicate NHLs. I did not know that before, i never noticed that. Clariosophic further asked/commented: "A question, I have is onNRHP.com for Hanover County, 3 blue stars are supposed to be NHLs, but some are and some aren't on the NHL list. The Richmond National Battlefield Park which is actually in Hanover County has 3 stars. Cold Harbor National Cemetery also has 3 stars. I found one in Sumter County SC that has 2 stars but isn't on the NPS NHL list." Unfortunately NRHP.COM seems to be down right now, so I can't go see. But I believe that NRHP.COM's data is limited to the same NRIS download that Elkman's infobox generator tool accesses, and the same that was used in creating the original table of Virginia NHLs. The NRIS database has a field for NHL or not, and that NRIS database indicator of NHLs is inaccurate, I know for sure. So I would think the NRHP.COM source would have to be wrong, often. Maybe the three stars indicates National Historic Sites, Nattional Battlefields, and other National Park Service areas, listed further below in the List of NHLs page? The Richmond NBP appears there, but not the Cold Harbor National Cemetery. I guess their system gives stars for sites that are National Cemeteries, too, which are not the same kind of historic sites as what we want to list. I am curious to see the NRHP.COM system and try to figure out what the rest of its star system covers. Thanks. doncram (talk) 04:22, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

some task ideas / division of labour
I was asked, what's to be done, what would I like to have done on this list-article. If you're willing to take something on, here are some ideas:


 * NRHP_INFOBOXES: create new stub articles with NRHP infoboxes where there are red-links, using the Elkman infobox generator. I personally make a point to add, by cut-and-paste, the number and street address information that is visible in the generator but is not part of its suggested infobox output.  I also add any alternative names given for a site, also not part of the standard output.


 * dibs on new article creation for Hanover County Courthouse by Clariosophic
 * I was going to add infobox to Jackson Ward Historic District article. The Elkman tool has two, one for the original and one for a boundary increase.  Do you put both in the article?Lvklock (talk) 03:46, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Our NRHP best practice seems to be to merge the information into one infobox that shows refnums and listing dates for both the original and the boundary increase listings. I just added a note with link to two examples, at WikiProject National Register of Historic Places/Style guide, to describe how this is done. doncram (talk) 07:36, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

| designated= __, 19__
 * NHL_DATE_AND_SOURCE: go through all the existing pages, checking if the NRHP infoboxes are complete. Use http://tps.cr.nps.gov/nhl/default.cfm which is the NHL webpage search page to find the corresponding NHL webpage.  If the infobox does not contain NHL date and source (which Elkman infoboxes do not include), add that, with link to NHL webpage (that is, insert and edit the following:


 * Note this needs to be done for NHL#3, Bacon's Castle and lots more.

*__: __ photos, __drawings, __data pages and supplemental material, at Historic American Building Survey
 * HABS_LINKS: go through any/all existing pages, locate and add external links to HABS. External link format is as follows (replace 0000 by actual site number visible in HABS, other edits should be fairly obvious):


 * HABS_GET: actually upload HABS pics to commons, and include in the article. I prefer it when an editor edits the HABS pic to remove the borders, then indicates in the description that the uploader cropped the pic in 2008.


 * OTHER_PICS: look for other pics that are available to upload
 * I went through the list and checked articles and wikimedia for pics and added what I found. I have a couple questions.  Cedar Creek Battefiled and Belle Grove Plantation.  I moved a pic in the article into the infobox, but the red dot pointer still shows and I'm not sure why.  Same thing in Green Springs Historic district.  I added a pic in the Washington & Lee University article, but it's not showing and I can't see what I did wrong.Lvklock (talk) 03:44, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't know about the red dots, but I fixed the pic display in the Washington & Lee University article. Apparently the university infobox requires redundant/weird formatting of "image=[[Image:". [[User:Doncram|doncram]] (talk) 10:08, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

It was declared a National Historic Landmark in 19__.
 * NRHP_TEXT_PHOTOS_ADD: go through any/all existing pages, add standard NRHP text/photo document references. Done fairly easily by pasting in the following (and then editing to add the REFNUM from infobox and then previewing and getting access to the actual PDFs for the rest of the info):


 * TALK_PAGE_NOTICES: go through any/all existing pages, adding to the Talk page the WP:NRHP info, the WP:Virginia info, and "reqphoto" and standard info about photos being needed.


 * EXTERNALS: doing google or other web-based searching to find external links to add to the articles, especially any official sites of an organization that owns/operates a given NHL as a house museum or whatever


 * CATEGORIES: add county and other categories and Virginia-NRHP-stub indicators at end. Complication:  in Virginia, there are counties and 39 independent cities.  Not sure how categories work for those.


 * WRITE: doing actual writing. This is perhaps the hardest.  Working with existing articles to draw on the sources and develop the articles.


 * SUMMARIZE: adding short descriptions based on the articles to the list-article


 * VISIT: travel to the sites, take pics and collect materials!

If you are willing to take on one of these tasks perhaps you could say so here, and/or just communicate by your edit summaries that you are marching through and doing them. I don't think coordination is too much of a problem, i have rarely ever had edit conflict issues, as long as you work out in mainspace and don't do a ton of work in sandboxes that someone else might be doing in their own sandbox. doncram (talk) 05:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Marlbourne
I started an article for Marlbourne just now, which I would be interested in putting up for DYK, if developed properly to describe secessionist Edmund Ruffin's agricultural innovations including use of marl to replenish depleted plantation soil. Map shows 3 marl pits. But, among other problems, can't find a usable picture to include in article. NRHP doc mentions HABS pics from 1969, but i can't find them. Also can't find any external links that would be very helpful to include, despite mention somewhere that the site is open for visiting. doncram (talk) 21:08, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

New article announcements at NRHP
I just announced some of the new VA NHL articles in the new articles list at WP:NRHP: I don't always announce my own new articles, but think it hurts to attract other attention to our joint articles-in-process. These ones are short but all have multiple sources and have photos (thanks, KudzuVine and RebelAt for adding those). Everyone should feel free to announce our new articles there, if you get them up to a point where you feel proud of them. doncram (talk) 22:03, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) Alexandria Historic District, a VA NHL
 * 2) Aquia Church, a VA NHL
 * 3) Barracks, Virginia Military Institute, a VA NHL
 * 4) Benjamin Banneker: SW-9 Intermediate Boundary Stone, a VA NHL

County column
You should be aware that most Virginia cities such as Alexandria, Richmond, etc, are Independent cities and are NOT in a county. The city of Richmond was once in Henrico County, but is no longer. It has annexed into other adjacent counties. Places with the name "Richmond" may not be in the city but in an adjoining county. To confuse things further, there is a Richmond County in the Northern Neck, some distance from the city. Also Alexandria County no longer exists. It is now Arlington County. The City of Alexandria is independent and it too has annexed into other counties. I'll be trying to correct them. clariosophic (talk) 03:22, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Good, please do correct these. I am used to relying upon the NHL webpages to give me the county to use for category within NRHP/NHL webpages, but in Virginia it is NOT serving me well.  Basically the NHL webpages can only handle normal counties, and they are erroneous for every one of the independent city cases.  Another systematic error in the NHL webpages for me to report to the National Park Service, adding to my list.  The NHL_list PDF file that is a reference in the article, however, does tend to make the distinction of city vs. county.  Thanks! doncram (talk) 03:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Appropriate sections / header titles
Hmm. User:JonHarder just edited away at the section headers, with edit title "Edit for conciseness. Avoid repeating article title in headers (MoS:HEAD))". I am sure he was right that some improvements were possible, but the immediate effect of the edit was to leave us with no section for the main NHL list, and "Historic areas" and "Former sites" as section titles that are not descriptive.  ALL of the items covered in all 3 lists within the article are historic areas.  All are sites, no site is a "former site", it keeps on being a place whether or not it continues as a National Historic Landmark.

I think he is right that there is repetition between the article title and the first section title. The article title should perhaps be broader. But I can't come up with anything that is not too wordy. "List of National Historic Landmarks and related national landmarks in, or formerly in, Virginia"? I would welcome better suggestions for the article title. The general criticism would apply in many other NHL list articles, such as List of National Historic Landmarks in New York which has gone through peer review. I'll invite JonHarder to comment further here. But I am inclined to bring back the previous section titles as superior to the current ones, if we can't come up with an adequate set that accurately describes the sections. doncram (talk) 19:49, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, I guess you could put a new header at the beginning that says "Currently designated" and change "Former Sites" to "Formerly Designated", trusting that readers will know they refer to the article title. As far as the "Historic Areas" one goes, it didn't echo the title in the first place.  I think it should go back as it was because it differentiates them as being par of the National Park Service (which is not in the title) but not designated NHL's.  Personally, I liked it best as it was before editing for conciseness, but I can see where my preferences might not reflect concensus.


 * I would keep the article title as is. If you try to make it broader you sacrifice conciseness there.  And, I appreciate the consistency from article to article within NHL list articles. Lvklock (talk) 21:28, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't change the article title. The present headers are satisfactory; if others believe it is best to go back to the previous headers, that is fine with me as I don't have a stake in this article. However, please take into consideration Manual of Style guideline at WP:HEAD, particularly the part about not referring to the article topic in the headers. ✤ JonHarder talk 23:15, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks JonHarder for following up here. Okay, i read through WP:HEAD and the section above it about article titles.  That is guidance to be applied generally, and with exceptions allowed by common sense.  I agree the original article title and first section title seem repetitive, perhaps because of the way the intro was written.  I've tried a quick short rewrite of the intro, making clear that there are several types of items being talked about in this article, and defining the acronym NHL.  And then section titles "Current NHLs", "Former NHLs", and "Historic areas administered by the National Park Service".  I believe this is somewhat different than originally, and better.  Consider my edit to be another try.  I am overwriting another try, which used "Currently designated" and "Formerly designated", and which didn't quite work for me.  "Currently designated" could apply to NHLs or to National Monuments and other types of landmarks, so is not precise enough to my taste.  "Formerly designated" implies that the one listed has been de-designated, but it has just been moved to another state.  I think an implicit "in Virginia" attaches better to "Former NHLs".  I am not wed to these, this was just another try, someone can try another version if you like. doncram (talk) 00:42, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Status report, and now rate at Start
Okay, this may be silly to do.

Just now there is an article for all 130 sites indexed by our list, and 91 or those are with pictures included in our list. With this, I am upgrading this list-article to Start and will announce it in WP:NRHP's new articles section. Nice work, all! doncram (talk) 22:32, 26 April 2008 (UTC) P.S. On 4/26, one pic got deleted, that's why pic count went down.

DYKs
If anyone wants to do a DYK or two, I just started two articles that could make good ones: Tuckahoe Plantation, boyhood home of Thomas Jefferson, and New Kent School and George W. Watkins School, focus of 1968 desegregation case following up on 1954 Brown v. Board of Education. I added good sources, links. HABS drawings available for the first; NRHP pics could be used for 2nd. Plenty of material, if someone wants to develop the article a bit more and nominate.

I personally don't really get how DYK works, never had one. I have nominated Carter Hall, a Virginia NRHP related to one of our NHLs, in the April 17-created batch at Template talk:Did you know, will see how that goes. doncram (talk) 21:50, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

119 or 120 entries
There seems to be a discrepancy. The official list mentions 119 entries and doesn't include "City Hall (Richmond)". However, its entry doesn't show that it has been delisted. Anyone having more information? -- Firefox13 (talk) 20:08, 13 July 2011 (UTC)