Talk:List of Native American artists/Archive 1

Comment
Please make sure anyone added to the list qualifies as "notable" under Wikipedia's standards.

Just a start, and I haven't filled in the artist pages. . . yet.

Juan Quezada is not Native American, he is Mexican
 * "Native American" and "Mexican" are not mutually exclusive terms. Juan Quezada is from the Mata Ortiz pueblo in northern Mexico. Chuck 07:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

IACA, "Native American" and "Mexican", proposal for discussion of criteria.
Just a note: The inclusion of the IACA link is a good idea in order to confirm inclusion to the list, but other than that its scope is limited. There are many Native American artists who are not members of the IACA.

Also, discussion is in order concerning the above comment, re: "Native American" and "Mexican". This article is part of the NORTH American Wiki project. Producers of Casa Grandes and Mata Ortiz pottery are not considered by dealers when referring to "Native American" art. However, Mexico falls under "North America", but it is also a "Latino" country. Are all Latino indian artists to be included in this list then? The Wiki page on "Native Americans" makes several distinctions which should be considered for inclusion to this list. I also don't believe the IACA would accept Mata Ortiz artists for membership but would accept Canadian Native artists, but I might be wrong. Amerindianarts 23:12, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I have sent an email to the IACA concerning criteria for artist membership. I am waiting for an answer. While many Native American artists are not members, they are still eligible, and I believe that the purpose of this list is to number those that are eligible for that type of membership.

There is considerable controversy between the interchange of the terms "Native American" and "Indian". Advocates of the politically correct dictate that the term "Indian" is derogatory, but Native Americans themselves really don't have any objections to being referred to as an "Indian". In order to determine the scope of this list these are matters that need to be addressed. What is the intention of this list? Amerindianarts 23:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

According to the IACA a "Native American" artist is defined as an artist enrolled in a State or Federally recognized tribe and must provide documentation and ID. The Mata Ortiz artists, or the Casa Grandes tribe, are not recognized as such, specifically because of the difficulty in ascertaining the legitimacy of tribal members. I propose this as criteria for inclusion in this list. Amerindianarts 19:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Famous Artists
Tammy Garcia is a very well-known and accomplished Native artist. She deserves to be on the list. Uyvsdi (talk) 00:47, 9 January 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Writers
Would anyone mind if the Writers section was removed since there is already a separate List of writers from peoples indigenous to the Americas and a category for "Native American writers"? Also this section is woefully short considering the vast numbers of Native American writers being published. -Uyvsdi (talk) 05:02, 20 February 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Ceramicists < > Potters
Many of the artists listed under this heading do not just make pots or do not make pots at all; they create ceramic sculpture, such as Helen Cordero, Anita Fields, and Roxanne Swintzell, to name a few. Personally, I don't see "Ceramicists" as implying anyone mass-produces anything (obviously only artists are included here, not Frankoma Pottery, for instance), but perhaps there is a better term that would include all artists working in the ceramic medium? Any suggestions? -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:02, 15 March 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi


 * Cordero is considered a potter. Many have followed her in making figurines and storytellers and it is usually looked at as "folk art" and pottery, but it is not truly ceramics. I believe her figures were coiled.  Swintzell is considered a sculptor.  Fields is considered a ceramicist, clay artist, etc. I would consider her a folk artist. The problem with labeling this list as "Ceramics" is that it disregards the hand-coiled aspect of fine Native American Pottery, which is where it all began.  Ceramics would also include the Native American hand-painted Mesa Verde greenware you find at every tourist trap and doesn't really qualify as art.  It would also include the ceramics that R C Gorman painted, but were actually executed by a master ceramicist. Gorman surely belongs on the painters list, but would you include him on a potter's list? No.  A ceramicist's list? Possibly, but I would have reservations.


 * Ceramics I think is too broad and misses a lot of points. Margaret and Luther Gutierrez are well known for their figurines as are many other Santa Clara potters who practice hand-coiling. They are considered potters. Pottery may be too narrow so "Pottery and Folk Art" is a possibility, but it also opens up the possibility of non-pottery items being included. Betty Emerson produces clay figurines but she is considered a folk artist and not a potter. You could also move Swintzell to sculptures and make a new category for Folk Art. Clay art has evolved, but the evolution of Native Americana labeled as "ceramics" clearly muddys  the concept of hand-coiled pottery treasured by so many.


 * PS. Check out the book by Peterson with excerpts online at http://www.cla.purdue.edu/waaw/peterson/.  She, like so many others writing books on the subject refer to these artists as "potters".  Swentzell, Fields; potters.  No ambiguity and everybody seems to know what they mean. "Ceramics" is out the question.  All these people do loses its meaning by such a reference. Amerindianarts (talk) 02:02, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps someone else will contribute to the dialogue? Anita Fields describes herself as a "Clay Artist" on her website.website Folk art includes wood carving, flint-knapping, any number of media so wouldn't be helpful and could be interpreted as patronizing. None of the terms suggest address process. Potters also create wheel-thrown pots. -Uyvsdi (talk) 04:12, 16 March 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi

"Pottery and Folk Art" was not a serious suggestion. To the unknowing reader "Ceramics" is grossly misleading. I don't think a potter who coils their clay, or a "clay artist", or potters producing wheel-thrown pots would refer to themselves as ceramicists. Amerindianarts (talk) 08:02, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

"Painters" vs. "Painters and Printmakers"
Over kill. This list has excluded thousands of Native American painters who probably deserve to be on the list. That is not practical for this page. This list should include artists who have produced original works. Any artist who has made prints, silkscreens, lithos, has painted original works. Their work is either of historical significance, demanded by collectors, or appears often in galleries and finer auctions. This is a first criteria. Printing is a derivative of that criteria. Inclusion to this list should be selective and include artist's work of "either of historical significance, demanded by collectors, or appears often in galleries and finer auctions". I don't understand the inclusion of Iyall. All I can find is that she is an art teacher and doesn't possess the other criteria, yet. Amerindianarts (talk) 01:52, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Printmaking is its own art media and is original work. Monotypes, wood block printing, linocut printing are all independent of paintings. Obviously by printmaking, the reference is to limited edition, fine art printmaking, not commerical reproductions. Melanie Yazzie, Tennyson Reid, and Debora Iyall are printers who do not paint, and Yazzie and Iyall are some of the extremely few artists on this list with pre-existing articles. Ben Harjo and Ruthe Blalock Jones, as with many other printers, also paint, but his wood block prints and her monotypes are nothing like their respective paintings. Linda Lomahaftewa occasionally but is known for her printmaking.


 * Regarding Debora Iyall, I've studied with her and shown with her at two museums, but that would probably fall under "original research." (BTW I'm not the person who added her - she has her own following.) Unfortunately her personal website is down, but you can see a few samples of her work at, , and . Articles about her that discuss her printmaking are here, here, and here. She creates Viscosity printing and Linocuts, and has the advantage of being notable enough to have a pre-existing article. Actually, placing references next to artists' names to verify their notability would probably be a good idea. Cheers, Uyvsdi (talk) 04:43, 16 March 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi


 * There is nothing by her that I could see at link number three and the first two are of the same monotone linocut. It seems to me that there are hundreds of other painters who are not on the list but are more deserving of the space.  So, how do you prioritize the space?  I know there are many artists who make a living at print making.  It is a method for people to acquire work by an artist at a reasonable cost and the artist can resell the same idea, gaining exposure and making a living by not relying on selling their originals.  Gorman, Harjo, Lomahaftewa etc. are known for executing original prints, but you seldom find them hanging in museums in their permanent collections.  Iyall does have a large following.  I was really surprised when I searched the net and found what a large following she has.  But, it seemed to be because of her musicianship.  Amerindianarts (talk) 07:51, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking of separating out the Printmakers, since the Painting section is soooo incredibly long. -Uyvsdi (talk) 22:24, 26 April 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Notability
Notability is a challenge with this page, since no one can be an expert on all Native artists of all tribes. Some people may not be in museum collections but might be highly important to their tribe, particularly earlier artists and more traditional artists. Some people might be known mainly for the influences they've had on artists that followed them. Typically in lists such as this, the artists should already have articles, but this one seems to be more of a "to-do" list.

Definitely not everyone listed need to be here. It seems that people have gone through and listed artists from their tribe, for example, the many non-notable Chickasaw and Cherokee artists listed. Ways of determining notability could include requiring quality references for every red-linked artist or nominating artists for deletion in this talk page. -Uyvsdi (talk) 21:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi


 * I see you removed Iyall from the performance section. Maybe you should enter a section for "Musicians" and put her there.  She doesn't belong under painters.  As far as I can tell she isn't of the same caliber as other members on the list, and there are others who are more deserving of the space even with the two column format.  She made her name in music and there are numerous other Native Americans who have made their name in music. Grammies are awarded every year to Native American musicians. I nominate Iyall as a non-notable painter to be removed, and perhaps a section for musicians to be started.  She can go there.  That is how she gained her notoriety and following.


 * Additional criteria for inclusion to the list of painters should be :1) listed in either Snodgrasses' or Lester's Biographical Directory of Native American Painters (or some other reputable Who's who directory). If they are listed there then they are enrolled members and have made a mark in the art world. 2) Listed in the artist directories at askart.com, or artnet, or any of these types of information services where auction records for the artists work has been established.  Galleries handling an artist's work will also list an artist with these information services exclusive of auction results if they are worth their salt.  Amerindianarts (talk) 13:57, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Iyall is substantially more notable than many other people on the list and actually has an article written about her. Performance art is a particular genre of art. Lester's Biographical Directory was published in 1995 and many notable artists have been active in the last 14 years. At this time you seem to be other only other active person on this page. Do you prefer the idea of requiring references (such as askart or artnet, as you mentioned) for red-linked artists on the main page or listing less notable artists here on the talk page, or another system? Cheers, -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:46, 22 March 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Yes, askart.com is an important source. Auction results (not estate auctions, but art auctions) shows that people buy, sell and collect an artist's work. Works that appear at auctions are also excesses from galleries and museums. If an artist's work shows at a reputable auction then it goes without saying it has some importance. Galleries also enter the info to askart in order to determine objective values. The "Wiki way" is for an entry to be verifiable. An artist needs to be listed somewhere showing it as a profession. Lester's is a source for verification and because it only goes to 1995 any entry after that needs to be written, verifiable. An artist's work needs to be listed, selling and collected somewhere. I'm familiar with almost all the artists listed so far, but I have never seen or heard of a Iyall work except for the woodblock which seems to be done for charity. It may be prudent to have a list on this page, subject to some acceptable criteria. I found two entries today that appeared to belong to lists other than painters. Amerindianarts (talk) 20:34, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll begin adding references to the main page for redlinked artists. The bluelinked artists have their notability accounted for on their articles. Cheers, -Uyvsdi (talk) 00:04, 23 March 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi


 * I don't know if that is necessary. With the two column format you might have a space problem to keep the entries on a single line.  It would probably be better to just add an addendum to the criteria at the top of the page the talk page.  As long as a watchful eye is kept on the page it shouldn't be a problem as is.Amerindianarts (talk) 01:00, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, note that askart should be used with discretion. Some prolific artists don't appear there but still show frequently at auctions and are listed in Lester's, e.g. Lee Joshua, White Buffalo. Low dollar items handled by  auction houses that don't always submit all their data.  Some artists listed at askart will have no data whatsoever.  Some will show no activity or info but will list collections. Amerindianarts (talk) 01:12, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

This list is completely filled with non-notable artists. I think barely anyone on Wikipedia is involved with the Native American art world, so editors are afraid to suggest who is/isn't notable. (If anyone else is out there, please contribute your two cents!!) Really the only people that should be on the list are ones that either already have articles or someone intends to write an article about them in the near future. (I've written some articles and hope to write more.) I referenced artists in the interest of establishing some kind of criteria of notability. Cheers, -Uyvsdi (talk) 23:41, 19 April 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi


 * And in your opinion, who is non-notable in the painter,s section? Amerindianarts (talk) 21:16, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Ducee Blue Buzzard for one, so I mentioned him one Acee Blue Eagle's page (with references - yes, even Blue Buzzard is written about, although he is extremely obscure) and removed from the list. Obviously we need more than just you and I working on this page. Being mentioned in a single directory of 1000s of artists doesn't really establish notability. Every active artist is going to be written about somewhere, but did they really make an impact on the art world? Did they dramatically change their art form? Entries on lists such as these on Wikipedia are for people that have pre-existing articles or will soon have articles. I've been cranking out the articles for notable contemporary and historical Native artists. Do you intend to write any articles about any of these artists? -Uyvsdi (talk) 22:14, 26 April 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi


 * Defining "impact" will be difficult. Some artists broke with tradition and made a name for theirself.  Artists under Dunn's tutelage continued traditions and influenced other artists who continued with the tradition style.  What many collectors look for in traditional painting is what depicts history.  That's what makes Native American art what it is.  Tradition and historically correct renditions. So, many artist's impact is not necessarily fresh or something that shakes the foundations.


 * I no longer write for Wiki. If I write anything I put it on my website and eliminate the need for monitoring or competing with Wiki in the search engines.Amerindianarts (talk) 09:52, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Native American art is art created by Native Americans, regardless of subject matter and regardless of media. -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:24, 2 May 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi


 * Congratulations. You have missed the point while making no point at all. I do not see anything at all above that contradicts what you say.Amerindianarts (talk) 05:03, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Aka Silver Horn
A bio by his great granddaughter states that his name was Haungooah Silverhorn (even Lester got the spelling correct). See: and where she points out that "Silver Horn" is an incorrect spelling and an artist alias dubbed by "experts". The are many reputable references to this effect and a check of obituaries of offspring confirms the spelling. The format for this article has been up to now to list an artist by their name and list aliases afterward. Amerindianarts (talk) 03:15, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Diana Beach Stamper
America O' America, I have had to remove this Native American artist from the list and hopefully it is simply a pending matter. Although listed in Lester's Biographical Index to Native American Painters (as Diana Hudgens-Beach, p. 251) it appears that the founder and organizer of the Seven Cherokee Women Legends Show is a member of the Chickamauga Cherokee, White River Band, which has not been recognized by the Federal Government and America. But, rules are rules and after putting her on the list I have had to remove her after being informed by the IACB that she is not officially a Native American, even though she has more blood than several other artists on the list and has worked hard since the 1970s for Native American Arts and Crafts and Native American Women artists in general. Amerindianarts (talk) 07:18, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Lester
Where did the Lester citations go? Askart is OK but is not as good a source as Lester in regard to Native American citation. Askart is a veritable source of error.Amerindianarts (talk) 12:30, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

I reinstated the Lester citations in the painter's section (or visual arts? -aren't they all visual arts? are the dancers visible or not?). I do not know where they went, don't care, but with all its imperfections Lester fulfills the inclusion criteria better than askart. Askart was intended for a back-up source for newer artists that may not be listed in Lester's. At the time of this entry it was needed only twice as a source for artists not in Lester's. Askart shows examples of artist's work, etc., but its info is often lacking, dependent upon gallery owners and auctioneers who are often mistaken in their own bias' or other reasons, and viewable only to subscribers; and that's not fair. Amerindianarts (talk) 14:12, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

SWAIA roster as criteria
It is my understanding that an artist must be on the SWAIA roster if it exhibits at the Santa Fe Indian Market. An artist must also be a confirmed Native American in order to exhibit at the Santa Fe Indian Market. So, those artists who exhibit at the Market are "confirmed". Are there artists on the SWAIA roster that can't be eligible to exhibit at the Santa Fe Indian Market? I would like to know. Otherwise, that roster fulfills the criteria for artists (in this case potters) who for some reason or another are not documented elsewhere, yet. I know Shirley Brauker and Lucy McKelvey. They exhibit at the Market. They are Native Americans, confirmed.Amerindianarts (talk) 14:25, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Tsinajinnie spelling
I have a comment/question about the use of the spelling "Tsihnahjinnie". This is certainly his parent's name but after a point early in his career Andrew stopped using that spelling when signing his paintings and researchers and art commentators seem to always use "Tsinajinnie". Lester lists him as "Tsinajinnie", notes his family name as "Tsihnajinnie", and lists aliases because Andy signed his name with so many different spellings other than his family name. So, anyone doing research would have the best results by searching for "Tsinajinnie" because that spelling has become commonplace. This is something that needs to be considered whenever Andrew becomes a bluelink. What to do, what to do?Amerindianarts (talk) 17:18, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I've also seen some sources give his full name as "Andrew Van Tsihnahjinnie" -- one is When the Rainbow Touches Down, by Tryntje Van Ness Seymour. (I'm not sure if there's a consistent spelling elsewhere for Tsi...) Agree this should be sorted out by whoever writes him up. Thanks for the info. Cheers, Pete Tillman (talk) 19:08, 19 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Indian Painters and White Patrons by Brody has a plate with a painting by him dated 1946 and signed in his family name. Funny because Brody uses the "Tsinajinnie" spelling throughout the book. Most traders seem to utilize that spelling. I currently have three of Andy's painting, all signed differently but none with the family name.  I'm an avid auction goer and see a couple dozen of his paintings go by a year and I do not recall any signed with the family name.  The Smithsonian lists him with his family name and a lengthy list of variable spellings he used to sign his paintings. It seems to typify his sense of humor and search of Google for Tsihnahjinnie does yield considerable results. Amerindianarts (talk) 08:56, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 15:16, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

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Red link
Moving the most recent red link to the talk page - per the earlier notability convo on this talk page history. Jooojay (talk) 05:05, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Cheryl Minnema, Ojibwe, Mille Lacs Band Of Ojibwe Bandolier bag Maker
 * Mary Lee (Catron) Tidwell, Cherokee Beadwork, hand beaded medallion necklaces, barrettes, hair ties, earrings
 * Yonavea Hawkins, Caddo Nation, Oklahoma Beadwork

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