Talk:List of North Carolina Tar Heels men's basketball seasons

Old FLC review

 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted by User:Matthewedwards 05:44, 4 October 2008.

North Carolina Tar Heels men's basketball seasons
I think this list meets all the criteria for FL and I think it would be useful to get a college basketball season article as a FL so it can act as a template for other such lists. Remember (talk) 17:50, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Strong Oppose
 * Lead
 * This is a list of seasons completed by the men's basketball team of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill of National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) Division I. - FL's are discouraged to begin with "This is a list of ___"
 * Revised to state "The men's basketball team of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill is referred to as the North Carolina Tar Heels and play in the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) Division I. The Tar Heels have played their games at the Dean Smith Center since 1986" in accordance with Los Angeles Lakers seasons page.


 * The North Carolina Tar Heels have a 73.6% all-time winning percentage, winning 1,950 games and losing 699 games in the 98 seasons from the team's first season in 1910–11 to the most recent season, 2007–2008.[1][2]  - why is the 1910-11 season in that format while the 2007-2008 is not like that (i.e. 2007-08)? Also are there articles about the seasons?
 * Someone changed some of the format of the seasons, but I have changed them to be consistent as well as refraining from using the n dash since these seasons do have page articles which do not use the N-dash. So yes, there are articles about the seasons, but they are slowly being put together.  Let me know if there is any other inconsistent use of years.
 * I have now added links to all of the season years.


 * The Tar Heels also have the most consecutive 20-win seasons, with 31 seasons from the 1970–71 seasons through 2000–2001 season. - what is "20-win seasons?
 * A 20-win season is a season in which a team wins 20 games. I thought that was pretty self-explanatory, so I am a bit confused by the confusion.  A 20-win season is a pretty big deal in college basketball given the fact that if you don't do well in tournaments (or don't go to them) you may only have about 28 games in a season.


 * No need to say "North Carolina Tar Heels" over and over, Tar Heels or even Heels will do just fine.
 * I will revise.


 * In 1921 North Carolina joined the Southern Conference. - the southern conference of what?
 * Changed to read - "In 1921 North Carolina joined the newly formed Southern Conference, a college athletic conference affiliated with the NCAA's Division I."


 * I'm not even going to review the rest of the lead because it is too long, more than 5 pargraphs, fails WP:LEDE and CR 4 and 2.
 * I will shorten


 * Table
 * The table is also messy and some refs are used multiple times but are not in the correct format using
 * I will reformat the references, but I don't know what you mean when you say the table is "messy."
 * Any more suggestions are welcome. Remember (talk) 12:00, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

-- S R X  01:01, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * In my eyes its messy per the so many different colors representing a certain thing. Another thing is the totals, can they not be incorporated into a row in the table? Also it's appearance looks messy because in the column that has quarterfinalist, semifinalist, etc. some have links some dont, and most of the seasons are red links.-- S R X  00:47, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that the totals section could use with better formatting, but I was at a loss on how to do it. I want the large table to still be sortable, and I believe all of the total information is useful.  I just don't know how I should construct the total section to make it the most user friendly layout.  Any suggestions are welcome.
 * I added a totals section at the bottom, but any further advice on how to make this work would be welcome. Remember (talk) 13:16, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
 * As for the conference final section, the problem is that there are pages for the ACC Tournament for each year but not for the Southern Conference. I didn't know whether to set up webpages for each Southern Conference Tournament pages via redlinks or whether just to link to the page on the Southern Conference Tournament (even though it only shows the winners).
 * As for the various colors, I actually link them and think they are informative, but that is my opinion and others could easily differ. Remember (talk) 12:59, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * My first suggestion would be to get your references into order. A number of your website references lack publisher and/or last access dates, which are the bare minimum needed for WP:V. Books need publisher, author, and page number on top of title. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:50, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Excellent point. I will revise them. Remember (talk) 12:58, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Oppose The Rambling Man (talk) 16:28, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Lead far too long - see WP:LEAD.
 * Don't overlink North Carolina Tar Heels men's basketball.
 * Use en-dash for season year ranges, not hyphen, per WP:DASH.
 * In order to meet WP:WIAFL and bearing in mind this a "seasons" list, you need to have articles about most, if not all of the Tar Heels seasons.
 * There's plenty more but once you fix the above, I'll be happy to continue the comments.
 * Thanks for all the suggestions. I doubt I will have time to make all of these changes before this nomination closes out, but I will try to make them in the future.  So any additional comments you could provide would still be useful. Remember (talk) 17:35, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.

Examples
Some good examples of FL season articles
 * List of Chicago Bulls seasons
 * List of Houston Rockets seasons
 * List of Los Angeles Lakers seasons
 * List of New York Knicks seasons
 * List of Alabama Crimson Tide football seasons
 * List of Appalachian State Mountaineers football seasons
 * List of East Carolina Pirates football seasons
 * List of Iowa Hawkeyes football seasons
 * List of Maryland Terrapins football seasons
 * List of Oklahoma Sooners football seasons
 * List of UAB Blazers football seasons
 * List of Virginia Tech Hokies football seasons
 * List of Oklahoma Sooners men's basketball seasons

Review
Here's your review of this article:
 * You'll definitely get some flack about the number of red links in the season column of the Season results section. There was some discussion recently about the number of red links in a FL that you might want to read.
 * Table this issue until closer to finishing revisions


 * Consider using em dashes in the empty cells.
 * The Head Coach column doesn't sort correctly. Should sort by last name. Consider using template:Sortname.
 * Per WP:COLORS, color should not be the only indicator. In other words, you need some other way of indicating Helms National Champions.
 * No need to sort the ref column.
 * I don't know how to not have this column sortable. Do you?

*Why spell out Southern Conference but abbreviate ACC? *Doesn't appear the 2008-09 & 2009-10 seasons are sorting correctly in several columns. *I don't know what to make of the Totals section. Is it needed? I didn't read the lede beyond the first paragraph. Get some of the issues above resolved and I'll take a closer look. Hope it helps!.—NMajdan •talk 17:11, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Separate out the Notes and References. References 10, 13, 19, 22, and 23 should be Notes. Check out List of Oklahoma Sooners football seasons for an example; it passed FLC last month.
 * I don't think the NCAA Champions nav boxes at the bottom are needed. In the FLCs I've gone through, I've had to remove every nav box that did not link to the article it was being used on. So, unless it has a link to North Carolina Tar Heels men's basketball seasons, get rid of it (or add the link, especially to Template:North Carolina Tar Heels men's basketball).
 * There are two References sections.
 * A lot of your refs need work. Refer to WP:CITE and WP:FOOT.
 * I would say the See also section isn't needed since you already wikilink to those articles in the lede.
 * Some of the refs being used 20+ times could probably be moved to the General ref section.
 * Use non-breaking spaces where appropriate. See WP:NBSP.
 * There are two commas around ref 3.
 * That helps a lot. I will work on these issues.  Thanks! Remember (talk) 17:35, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * A couple more things. I don't know if removing the red links to the individual season articles will suffice. The FL people tend to think of a list as a sort of table of contents, which is how lists differ from articles. Hate to say it, but you may need to make stub articles for those seasons (you can also try grouping them by decade or coach). Also, it appears you are removing some duplicate links in the table. Don't. Per WP:LINK, each row in a table should be able to stand on its own. For instance, you are leaving the first mention of a coach untouched. But if you resort by another column, that first mention of the coach may no longer be the first mention anymore. Again, refer to the list I mentioned above which passed FLC last month and thus is the most accurate representation of the type of feedback you'd get at FLC.—NMajdan &bull;talk 21:23, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * That is odd that I would have to make stub articles for all of the seasons when this article Atlantic Coast Conference Men's Basketball Player of the Year was not required to do the same thing. Remember (talk) 22:20, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It really depends on the reviewer. I don't know if there is a hard rule. I'm just trying to think of arguments the FL directors could have. And let me tell you what they could say in response to that question. That article lists the player of the year for the ACC conference, so that list is about the players. So if that list had a lot of players red linked, they may have had an issue. Your list is about NC seasons and you have a lot of red linked seasons. Don't get me wrong, I hope you're right. That would save me a tremendous amount of time on List of Oklahoma Sooners men's basketball seasons. So, I say get to the point where the red links are your only issue and try FL.—NMajdan &bull;talk 22:37, 17 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Good point. That makes a lot of sense actually.  Thanks a lot for your comments! Cheers. Remember (talk) 01:22, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * FYI, dashes break numerical sorting.—NMajdan &bull;talk 14:16, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm confused. What did you mean by this? Remember (talk) 16:06, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The ranking columns don't sort correctly.—NMajdan &bull;talk 16:29, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The dashes are screwing everying up. Let me know if you have a quick solution to this problem. Remember (talk) 17:35, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * If I can't solve this problem, I think I may do a major redesign and remove the sortable table (although I put a lot of effort into making it sortable). Do you think the sortable aspect of the table is worth keeping or should I just ditch it. Remember (talk) 17:43, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Like I said, dashes break numerical sorting. Take a look at List of Oklahoma Sooners head football coaches and Template:ntsh. I highly suggest you keep the sortability. I had to redesign the football coaches list and this one to add sortability to get passed FL which was a huge pain.—NMajdan &bull;talk 17:47, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * THANK YOU SO MUCH! I never knew about ntsh. I will use that now. Remember (talk) 18:41, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Your article might be easier to read and easier for inexperienced editors to edit if you used the template more often instead of the css code you have now. Also look at nts and sortname, Help:Sorting and Category:Sorting templates.—NMajdan &bull;talk 19:29, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * css code?
 * Nevermind, I see now you have already removed it. I was referring to .—NMajdan &bull;<span style="font:9px Verdana,sans-serif; color:#000;">talk  19:57, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * What makes the SHRP Sports site reliable? I'm sure you could get that same information from the NCAA site. Not to mention that all those references are broken (I think you need to change collbask to cb in the URL). Also - not an FL requirement, but a good idea to ensure no links go dead - consider using WebCite to archive websites you are using as references. See List of Oklahoma Sooners in the NBA and WNBA Drafts for examples.
 * Nothing. I will get better sources for this (I actually already have one). I am just very slow at fixing citations since they are my least favorite part. Remember (talk) 18:41, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Funny, references are my favorite part! Personally, I'm a fan of list-defined references as I feel it makes the article content easier to read when editing, although it can make the actual editing a bit more difficult. You can see it in use in most of the lists I've mentioned above.—<span style="font:bold 11px Verdana,sans-serif;">NMajdan &bull;<span style="font:9px Verdana,sans-serif; color:#000;">talk 19:29, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Since you have so much fun doing it, you wouldn't want to clean up the references on this page, would you? Remember (talk) 16:44, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Ha. Not a chance. I've got my own stuff to keep me busy.—<span style="font:bold 11px Verdana,sans-serif;">NMajdan &bull;<span style="font:9px Verdana,sans-serif; color:#000;">talk 19:33, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Section break to celebrate - I believe I have fixed all of the sortable table issues thanks to the ntsh and nts templates. Let me know if you see any problems. Remember (talk) 19:25, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think you need the dagger for NCAA Champions as you are already indicating that in the NCAA Tourney column. It doesn't hurt, but I don't think it would be required. So I think it is up to you on whether you want to leave it or not.—<span style="font:bold 11px Verdana,sans-serif;">NMajdan •<span style="font:9px Verdana,sans-serif; color:#000;">talk 03:58, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I will leave it in. I kinda like it. Remember (talk) 13:51, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Review of lede
Well, I think your fixes are progressing nicely so I went ahead and reviewed the lede of the article since my activity level drops on weekends. Hope that helps. Let me know if you have any questions.—<span style="font:bold 11px Verdana,sans-serif;">NMajdan •<span style="font:9px Verdana,sans-serif; color:#000;">talk 19:49, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Last sentence in first paragraph needs a source.
 * Use non-breaking spaces as per WP:NBSP. (i.e. "").
 * 3rd sentence in 2nd paragraph has the would "season" four times. Rephrase.
 * 4th sentence also needs to be rephrased or split in a couple sentences. It's hard to read.
 * Rephrase sentence in 2ng paragraph beginning with "". (Yeah, these sentences with lists of accomplishments are hard to get right.)
 * Wikilink the polls in the lede.
 * You go back and forth between using and . I think you should stick to the former throughout.
 * Not needed.
 * Use en dash.
 * Is there an article on Wikipedia that describes what being retroactively awarded a national championship means? I don't think a reader who doesn't know anything about college basketball would understand this.
 * Wikilink winning percentage.
 * Again, not needed.
 * The 7th paragraph is using hyphens instead of en dashes throughout.
 * I feel the 6th paragraph is too short. I'm not a fan of 1 or 2 sentence paragraphs. Can this be expanded or, more preferably, combined with another paragraph?
 * Typo.
 * Needs a source.
 * Source.
 * Source. You need to be careful about stating facts that are not included in the tables below. A lot of the stuff you say can be backed up by the tables' references, but some cannot.
 * Whose predictions?
 * You might get complaints of the lede being too long. Don't really have a recommendation for that.
 * Very helpful. I am planning a major overhaul of the lede and the references so I have delayed fixing these problems right now. Remember (talk) 20:45, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Moved section
Below is a copy of the moved totals section that use to be in this article. It is moves so I can work on possibly incorporating some of this information into the article.

Totals
Overall
 * 99 Seasons played (43 in the Southern Conference and 56 in the ACC)
 * 18 head coaches
 * Total games played - 2,686
 * Games Won - 1,984
 * Games Lost - 703
 * Winning Percentage - 0.738

Overall Conference Record
 * Total Conference Games Played - 801
 * Conference Games Won - 575
 * Conference Games Lost - 226
 * Winning Percentage - 0.717

Southern Conference Record
 * 32 Seasons Played
 * Total Games Played - 415
 * Games Won - 304
 * Games Lost - 111
 * Winning Percentage - 0.733
 * 9 Regular Season Championships
 * 8 Tournament Championships

Atlantic Coast Conference Record
 * 55 Seasons Played
 * Total Conference Games Played - 801,
 * Games Won - 575
 * Games Lost 226
 * Winning Percentage - 0.717
 * 26 Regular Season Championships
 * 17 Tournament Championships

NCAA Tournament
 * 5 Championships
 * 9 Finals
 * 18 Final Fours
 * 24 Elite Eights
 * 30 Sweet Sixteens
 * 41 Appearances

NIT Tournament
 * 1 Championship
 * 2 Final Fours
 * 5 appearances

Final Rankings

AP
 * Total Top 25 AP Rankings - 42
 * Total Number One rankings by AP - 5

Coaches Poll
 * Total Top 25 Rankings - 45
 * Total Number One rankings by Coaches - 6

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