Talk:List of Phi Kappa Psi chapters/Archive 1

Put Into Table Format
I am putting the chapter list into a sortable, tabular, format and added for each chapter the year chartered, years inactive, number of initiates (complete only for inactive chapters, some of the towns, some notable facts, and some additional references and notes.

Work to be done is (1) to add the recent number of initiates for active chapters and to (2) add the missing towns. Led by truth (talk) 01:27, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

(3) Also to be done is to list more accurate Charter Dates for the 20+ recently chartered chapters that have struck-through dates in this table.

I have now entered the chapter data in the Initiates column. What I entered is the readily available information and should be sufficient.

In the state heading rows, such as CALIFORNIA, in the initiates column I entered " -1  ", which is a non-displayed -1. Its purpose is to group the heading rows together out of the way in a sort by initiates.

I removed the conflicting claims about being the oldest continuous chapter from a couple of lines (PA Beta and I think WV Alpha. Led by truth (talk) 05:22, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Added the missing Dates Chartered, so the only "to-do" left of the above 3 items is to add some towns. Led by truth (talk) 16:24, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

The above listed tasks have been completed. Led by truth (talk) 22:35, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

RfC Change Proposals
I'm a member of the organization of this page. It seems to be abandoned, and I've proposed several changes. Some unbiased eyes are welcome to evaluate these proposals. NYCRuss  ☎  22:13, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to remove redundant state information
I'm proposing to remove redundant information, specifically the rows that only name a state, and the column that specifies the state where a chapter is located. As all Phi Kappa Psi chapters include their state in their chapter name, these rows and column are not needed, and add clutter to the table. NYCRuss  ☎  18:42, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to merge the "Year Chartered" and "Years Inactive" columns
The reason for this proposal is that it is standard with most fraternities (pick up any copy of Baird's to see this,) as well as with Phi Kappa Psi, to keep this information together. NYCRuss  ☎  19:07, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to remove Status column
The reason for this proposal is that the information is redundant to the column indicating if a chapter is inactive, the Notable Fact column, as well as the chapter name column, which would indicate colony status. NYCRuss  ☎  19:10, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I no longer favor this suggestion. I've been playing around with replacement formatting in User:NYCRuss/Sandbox/List of Phi Kappa Psi chapters, and I now believe that this column offers unique utility that users will want.  NYCRuss   ☎  21:17, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to add column to indicate chartering order
The reason for this is to enable the sortable table to sort chapters in the order in which they chartered. Also, the initial sort of the chapters would be in charter order. NYCRuss  ☎  19:15, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to remove Initiates# column
The reason for this proposal is for sustainability, accuracy and compliance with Wikipedia standards. With chapters typically holding two initiations each year, at least few hundred edits are needed each year to keep the information accurate. In addition, this information, as Phi Kappa Psi currently releases it, will never be accurate without conducting original research. NYCRuss  ☎  19:25, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to change "Notable Fact" column to "Notes"
The reason for this is that there may be more than one notable fact, and because "Notes" is less verbose. NYCRuss  ☎  19:28, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to remove the Localities column
This information is of peripheral interest, often redundant with the host institution's name, available from the host institution's Wikipedia page, and if that is not available, can be added to the Notable Fact/Notes column. NYCRuss  ☎  16:06, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to add a References column
This is to better organize citations. NYCRuss  ☎  16:06, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Proposal to add a Districts column
This would be titled "D", and would be used to indicate a chapter's district, which is an important aspect of how Phi Kappa Psi is organized. NYCRuss  ☎  16:06, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
 * This won't work because it can't be independently verified. NYCRuss   ☎  19:58, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

Late comments on above proposals
Having missed reading the foregoing proposals before they were incorporated (or not) and believing that the result is generally good, I nevertheless am offering a few comments for consideration in future edits. Perhaps there is a better place for these comments, but I don't know where.

State headings I think are a matter of preference. Mine is to have them. I'd be interested to know other person's preferences.

Merging the Year Chartered with the Years Inactive column I think is good as combined with the addition of a Charting Order column.

Changing the Status column to a color-coded one I think is good.

Removing the Number of Initiates column I don't think is good although it saves work. Granted that it is never highly accurate or current, I think that it is, like the U. S. Census, useful even though only updated infrequently.

The Locality column is another preference, and I think removing it was a mistake. I liked it and found it useful.

Adding the References column I think is very good although it probably was a lot of work for someone (NYCruss).

Adding a Districts column is very important I think, although the current published information is very old (possibly 1964). Hopefully the fraternity staff or magazine editor will soon publish a current list in the magazine or online of this rarely changing list. Thanks to NYCRuss for a lot of work.

Led by truth (talk) 03:04, 21 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks to you as well for providing a foundation. At this point my views on additional columns are mostly driven by redundancy, information verifiability, and formatting at lower resolutions.


 * The one column that I strongly believe should not be added back in is state names because it is already in the chapter name, and I really don't see the value.


 * I would love to support districts and total initiated members, but it is not currently possible without conducting original research and/or listing data that is always out of date if it is to be properly sourced.


 * Then there is the issue of formatting. Wikipedia's guideline is that a page should for a wide range of screen resolutions starting at 800x600.  I disagree with part of this guideline because I believe that in 2010, anyone visiting Wikipedia on something other than a cell phone is likely to be using a monitor that is at least 1024x768. This is the resolution that I use at work.  At home I have a 1680x1050 monitor.  Some people, of course, have monitors that are much wider than that.  I think that it is very important to consider how a page looks on a wide range of screen resolutions.  Were it not for this, I could easily be persuaded to support the inclusion of a localities column.  As it stands, this list doesn't seem to have room for a column that would probably be at least 100px wide at 1024x768.
 * NYCRuss  ☎  20:11, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Working to featured list status
A major change was implemented today based on the RfC discussion that I seem to have had only with myself. Here are the steps that I believe are needed: NYCRuss  ☎  22:14, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Clean up the existing references
 * 2) Flesh out the notes section with references
 * 3) Request a peer review, and implement the suggestions
 * 4) Nominate this list as a featured list candidate, and implement the suggestions

Sources when adding information
When adding information, please provide a source, and please use a citation template. Citations should be placed at the end of a sentence, or if it is in the table, in the Ref(s) column.

If a book, listed in this article's book section, is being used, referencing is very easy. Here are some examples:
 * If page 123 of Phi Kappa Psi Fraternity From Its Foundation In 1852 To Its Fiftieth Anniversary is being cited, use
 * If pages 86-89 of The Centennial History of the Phi Kappa Psi Fraternity, 1852–1952, Vol. 1 is being cited, use
 * If page 287 of The Centennial History of the Phi Kappa Psi Fraternity, 1852–1952, Vol. 2 is being cited, use
 * If the 1991 edition of Baird's is being used, there are two authors, and the pages are preceded by sections. For the first page about Phi Kappa Psi, use

If The Shield is being cited, more work needs to be done. Check to see if there is an author's byline for the article being quoted. If there is none, that information is left blank. Note the article's title. Check for the name of the editor, and look to see if there is more than one. Look up the volume# and issue#, as well as the year that this issue was printed. Also note the place of publication. If the issue is on the web, get the URL ready as well. The ISSN number is needed, but is always 0199-1280 for The Shield. Here's an example: NYCRuss  ☎  22:09, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * To cite that New York Kappa was the first chapter to charter at a Grand Arch Council, we use this:

Keepers of the SHAH
"Keepers of the SHAH" was added in the notes section of Texas Alpha. I removed it because 1) I have no idea what this is and 2) it was not referenced. Does anyone have any idea what this is, and if so, does it belong on Wikipedia? NYCRuss  ☎  16:12, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Appropriate information for notes section
To keep things manageable, it seems to me that certain information should be left out. Things that come to mind are:
 * Names of prominent alumni, as there is already the List of Phi Kappa Psi brothers
 * Minor events such as "Greek Week champions" NYCRuss   ☎  00:34, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Need origins of chapter naming convention, since it's unusual...
The Article does a nice job explaining the chapter naming convention itself, but not historically how and why this very unusual chapter naming convention came to be. Virtually all other fraternities, whether social like Tau Kappa Epsilon, service like Alpha Phi Omega, or academic like Beta Beta Beta, use continuous local chapter letters without reference to "top level subnational entities" where chapters are geographically located. So, the Article should explain why Phi Kappa Psi opted not to follow that (basically standard) pattern. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 04:29, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

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Creation
I created this page in accordance with Wikipedia policy of not having an entire chapter listing on a fraternity's article page. Jmlk17 04:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)