Talk:List of Puerto Ricans/Archive 1

Alphabetization
I agree with the above editor. We need to alphabetize this entry. Smylere Snape 20:18, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that Waleska Martinez, the only Puerto Rican casaulty aboard United Flight 93 can't be included in this list. Her sister was present at Flight 93's film premiere, Puerto Rican flag present attached to a photo of her late sister, who was portrayed in the film by actress Liza Colon-Zayas. There are many murder victims on this list. Waleska was a murder victim also if you look at it. Terrorism is a form of murder.

In regards to Joaquin Phoenix, unlike Luis Miguel, Joaquin has never denied his Puerto Rican origins. He speaks Spanish, was named after a family friend in San Juan who cared for the family during their residency in Puerto Rico, and even on the "Gladiator" DVD, the young actor portraying the boy in the movie has a video diary where he spoke to Joaquin and Joaquin told the boy of his years and early upbringing in Puerto Rico. I admire him for this. Unlike many actors like Andres Garcia who denies he is Dominican, Joaquin never forgot his roots. Give the man credit. He is extremely talented and has great morals in regards to animal rights and other important social issues. XLR8TION
 * Waleska Martinez's notability or lack thereof may be answered witha question? What great contribution did she make in her life for us to commemorate? Joelito (talk) 03:50, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

What did David Sanes do to get recognize? He just got murdered by a bomb and died. Other murder victims here also were murdered. What's your point? She and the remainder of that flight crew can be considered matyrs. They stood upa nd fought with every last breath they had to prevent a bigges disaster from happening. many Flight 93 victims already have Wikipedia articles. Why not Waleska? Why not include her on the list? XLR8TION
 * Per Notability (people) for deceased people :"Has the person made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in the specific field?" I still believe the answer regardin Waleska is no. On the other hand, David Sanes was the unwilling catalyst for the removal of the U.S. Navy from Vieques. Joelito (talk) 18:57, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Flight 93 was used as a catalyst for the US attack and invasion of Afghanistan. It is also a symbol in the present administration's war on terrorism. Hence, the heroes of that flight were utilized as samples of Americans defending their freedom. Does that justify being considered a member of the list for being a brave and historic passenger on an ill-fated voyage. XLR8TION
 * I still believe that her being on that flight lacks the notability necessary for inclusion in this list because she did not make a "contribution that is part of the enduring historical record". Joelito (talk) 03:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

New Categories/Classification
I see that with many other Hispanic/Latino nationalities on Wikipedia that diplomats are included in the general list. IT was just announced that President Bush nominated a Puerto Rican to be the nation's Ambassador to the nations of Mauritius and the Seychelles, both located in the Indian Ocean. Once approved by the Senate, he is becomes the second Puerto Rican to serve as an ambassador in this current administration (the other is the Ambassador to the Dominican Republic). There have been many Puerto Rican ambassadors in the past and when I have tried to add them to the list someone removes it. I hereby want to introduce the creation of a "diplomats" section in the list. If not, I would like to include these names in the "other" section. --XLR8TION 02:39, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Puerto Rican immigrant artists
Can we add actor/producer Axel Anderson to this list. Although born in Germany and is of German-Jewish ancestry, he immigrated to Puerto Rico over 50 years ago and considers himself, much like Tony Croatto as Puerto Rican regardless when he was born. Axel's entry on the IMDb is http://imdb.com/name/nm0026388/  .--XLR8TION 02:48, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Images
Fair use images may not be used for decorative purposes. They may only be used to illustrate a specific point within the text, when it is absolutely neccessary. If you wish to readd the public domain images - please double check their PD status first, as many of them were of people born after 1923, and therefore not covered by the PD-US tags they were labelled with. ed g2s &bull; talk 18:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I would further like to encourage editors here to, in the future, not revert image cleanup. It is policy to keep unfree content to a minimum.  It is necessary that all unfree media needs to give its source, information on the copyright holder, and have a fair use rationale.  Please be more cautious about copyright issues going forward.  Jkelly 18:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Please note that those who continue reverting after copyright policy has been explained are liable to be blocked from editing. Fair use images are permissible, but only when the image itself is the subject of discussion. If this article does not discuss anything, it cannot have any fair use images. Johnleemk | Talk 19:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Come on, don't get your panties in a bunch over a simple dispute. There is no need to block or threaten to block anyone over such a triviality. Policy has been explained and that is it. I must, however, mention that if this were clearly defined in WP:FUC instead of the present ambiguous "decorative" statement then most of this discussions could be avoided. Joelito (talk) 19:29, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Editors of other lists have been rather recalcitrant over adherence to policy. And multiple reverts of an edit preventing Wikipedia from getting in legal trouble clearly calls for a formal warning. Johnleemk | Talk 21:18, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I have removed all of "PD" pictures as a precaution - as it seems some of them have been incorrectly tagged and may not be free. These should be re-added as and when you check them. ed g2s &bull; talk 19:46, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I can truly understand the deletion of "celebrity" images until furthur notice. However, the deletion of the flag and the Coat of arms was uncalled for.   Every other list of people include their flags and CoA.  I know that this is not an anti-Puerto Rican thing, I mean, we're very civilized here in the Pedia but, unless every single list of people in the Pedia has their flags and coat of arms removed I would personally feel offended.  Tony the Marine 22:43, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The flag is fine. The coat-of-arms is actually problematic, believe it or not.  Individual artists hold copyright on specific illustrations of coats-of-arms, despite their heraldic descriptions typically being in the public domain.  The satellite image of the island has no source for it being in the public domain, as well.  Jkelly 22:54, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I have added the NASA domain where the satellite picture is hosted. Joelito (talk) 23:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Great, thank you. Jkelly 23:24, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
 * commons:Category:People of Puerto Rico is rather disappointing. We do have some freely-licensed images at commons:Category:Jennifer Lopez, however.  Jkelly 22:57, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I can't just about understand using the flag to help visually identify the country - but the coat of arms and satellite map are information that really just belong on Puerto Rico. They have no relevance to this article. ed g2s &bull; talk 09:19, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I suppose they could be used to prettify the article. Still, you're right, there is no relevance. Anyway, it doesn't matter, as long as the images are free. If they're free, we can do whatever the hell we want with them. :p Johnleemk | Talk 16:39, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, within the guidelines of unfree images. But within the guidelines of using relevant material etc. they perhaps should be removed. ed g2s &bull; talk 16:59, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Please discontinue your campaign of removing images that are PD and of free use. When the Jennifer Lopez image was removed, that was understandable. Then User ed g2s comes along and removes every image and states "These should be re-added as and when you check them." Finally, he removes our "Coat of Arms" and the image of our "island" becuase according to him "they "perhaps" should be removed". What's next? Is he going to remove our flag and replace it with another? Please stop! These images are of free use and are revelant to those on the list. I'm sure that the Puerto Rican community in Wikipedia will be grateful. Tony the Marine 23:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * How is a satellite photo of Puerto Rico relevant to listing Puerto Rican people? Just because an image is free, doesn't mean we should use it. ed g2s &bull; talk 14:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Frankly I do not care if you regard it as relevant or not. Tony and I maintain this list so please allow us to keep the free images we desire. Believe it or not such a triviality makes our jobs a little easier. Joelito (talk) 15:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Please do not make the mistake that you own any articles on Wikipedia, despite being major contributors. ed g2s &bull; talk 20:53, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the list's caretakers. There is no need to remove anything that can be utilized by a national group in its' self-identity. If so, do we have to remove the map of Cyprus that appears on that nation's national flag? Do we remove the Union Jack from Hawaii's flag because the U.S. broke all ties with the United Kingdom when it declared its' independence? Do we remove the flags of Malyasia, Liberia, and Uruguay because they are clearly derived from the U.S. flag's design? Let's not take political correctiveness too far! If you have never lived onthe island or are of Puerto Rican ancestry, then you do not understand the cultural significance of the flag, coat of arms, and the map outline of the island has to Puerto Ricans all over the world. Please stop removing these images and concentrate on proofreading other articles that require our supervision. --XLR8TION 16:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The hundreds of Puerto Ricans listed either came or their desendents came from our beloved island whose public domain image we have.  Readers will read in "awe" when they see how many talented people whose contributions to society in general have been many and that they came from this small island.  That these people represent this small but, wonderful island isn't revelant enough is beyond believe.  Continued deletion of this image will be considered in "bad faith" and an insult to our people in general.  Tony the Marine 22:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * So you're admitting to pushing a POV? ed g2s &bull; talk 20:53, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Diplomats
As User: XLR8TION stated in my User page:[], I also agree that there are too many people listed in the "List of Puerto Ricans" who may have had only there 15 minutes of fame (He's added some himself). However, let me make myself clear, I don't believe that "just" because a person was a diplomat automatically makes you a notable or famous Puerto Rican, which is what the "list" is supposed to be about. Yes, Horacio Rivero and Teodoro MoscosoJr. are notable but, the first one as a militaryman and the second as a local Puerto Rican politician whose "Operation Bootstrap" helped the economy of the island. They did "not" become notable as diplomats. I understand that it would be nice to "show" the world that the island has the ability to sustain diplomatic relations with other countries as XLR8TION wants to point out but, the "List of Puerto Ricans" is supposed to be about Puerto Ricans who have made some type of contribution to society in general or that for some reason have gained fame or notability. Wikipedia is not a political forum where we must "show" the world our ability to become an independent nation. My advice to XLR8TION, if you do not agree with someones action, discuss it first and maybe a comprimise may be reached. Tony the Marine 00:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Answer these questions. What contributions to world politics have Cesar Benito Cabrera, Gabriel Guerra-Mondragon, Luis Guinot and Hans Hertell made that made them notable or famous? O.K., so they were ambassadors to some country but, what were their accomplishments as Ambassadors representing the United States? Tony the Marine 13:45, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

There are many many names on that list of people who are teachers who never made a headline or contributed to the island in one way or another. There are models who show their rears and breasts and yet they are celebrated. The list, like the island should be democratic and not managed by solely two people. That is just like the PNP writing another party's description on a ballot. Just like the "Grito de Lares" survey I feel this topic should be put to a vote and also that list should be cleaned out of insignificant people who really are no ones. It is time to comb through the list and do a clean up of these names so that real, inspirational names can be added. Furthermore, diplomats are the faces of a country to a nation. Hence, these diplomats represented 280 million citizens to a national government. Admiral Rivero was the last US Ambassador to present his credentials to Franco (before the restoration of democracy in Spain). Guerra-Mondragan helped the US and Chile (the South America nation to sign one with the U.S.) sign a free trade agreement. Hertell helped Puerto Rico sign an agreement on repatriation of illegal Dominican migrants that arrived in the island. This is far way much more important than Taina's breast implants or many little-known merengue singers on the list. Please keep the list as is and start a discussion instead of deletion. Inclusion, not exclusion should be the list's theme. Cubans-Americans and other Latino groups do include U.S. ambassadors. Why not Puerto Ricans? A breakdancer, a reggaeton singer who belittles women in his videos and a terrorist all are worthy to make the list an not an ambassador (they have only been six Puerto Rican ambassadors in history). What contributions has Jose Padilla (Al-Qaeda terrorist) made to the island? The only thing he has brought is shame and disgrace. Lets this list be inspirational to theworld, and most importantly to the young Puerto Rican youth out there looking for role models.--XLR8TION 14:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that the list should be cleaned out and that guidelines as to notability should be implamented. Now we are starting to see eye to eye.  Now, if you woukld have posted that "Hertell helped Puerto Rico sign an agreement on repatriation of illegal Dominican migrants that arrived in the island" and that "Guerra-Mondragan helped the US and Chile (the South America nation to sign one with the U.S.) sign a free trade agreement" after there names on the list then we all would have had an idea of their accomplishments and this would inspire others to read or research the person.  See what I mean?  However, if you only just post that the person was an ambassador to such and such country, then the reader may ask himself "So what?".  XLR8TION, I admire your loyalty to the Puerto Rican related subjects and I think that it would be a great idea if you wrote something about these people, even if it is a "stub", just to get things going.

One thing that I must comment and that is, that even though I agree that some "singers" or "models" do not deserve to be on the "list", some criminals do. This is because dispite the fact that they have brought shame to our image, people like Padilla have atracted international news coverage and therefore become notable. Others, such as "Correa Cotto" and "Toňo Bicicleta" have not only become notable becuase of the media coverage but, have also in some cases become part of Puerto Rican legend and lore.

We as members of the PR community have to set up parameters and guidelines for the list to keep it clean. See Talk: Tony the Marine 18:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I will write stubs on these diplomats as well for a few more people including a great author and anthropologist, Migene Gonzalez-Wippler. I did an article for Armando Riesco (actor) and he saw it and thanked me for a great job and article. Give me some time and I will give you great articles. Many of these diplomats are also big businessmen in the USA and Latin America. --XLR8TION 20:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Criminals and Outlaws: famous or infamous?
Although Bicicleta, Ojeda and Cotto have cultural and historical importance to belong in this list, I really question the importance of the Zodiac Copycat Heriberto Seda to be on it.

References on main list page
Please refrain from putting references on the main page. All references relating to someone's ancestry are put on the appropriate article not on the main list. Who is this Victoria Justice and why does a child star from Nickelodeon has and must have a reference on the main list when they are far more important individuals than her who don't have references of their Puerto Rican culture on this list. If anyone is going to be on this list they are Puerto Rican and the facts will be checked by the page's monitors. --XLR8TION 05:07, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No, this is incorrect. We do not rely on citations on other pages, nor can one Wikipedia article be used to source another article. With these X or X-American pages, you need explicit sources on the page. See any X-American page out there. Wiki lists do not differ in any way from Wiki articles. Both have to be sourced. I could stick an "unsourced" tag on the top of this page, as has been done to other pages, but I don't want to do that, because I plan to eventually source all the names. I don't see why you wish to impede this process. Mad Jack 05:12, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

This is not impeding nothing. The list has remained reference list for as long as I know it. All references should be placed in the main article or else this already long list will get longer and much more complexed. I have checked numerous lists and they do not have references for a child star on their main list page. The page's main users will agree with me here in keeping the list in order and especially concised. --XLR8TION 05:15, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think you understand. It doesn't matter what several users agree or do not agree on. Every list and article on Wikipedia needs sources. I can stick an "unsourced" tag on this page right now and you can not remove it, because, indeed, this list is not sourced. Not a single name on this list has a source right by the name that says that person is a Puerto Rican. Start with, say, List of French Americans and keep going through all the X-American pages. They all have sources. Other lists need sources. It's as simple as that. I don't know why that bothers you. If the list becomes too big that's not a problem. We can split it off to separate lists, i.e. List of Puerto Rican actors, etc. This list is big enough at the moment anyway, so that probably needs to be done. Mad Jack 05:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, like you said the list is long, therefore all means should be taken to keep it shorter and concised. Please place the appropriate reference in the subject's article and not on the main list. In regard to splitting the list, first a discussion should be started before any major cosmetic changes to the list are taken. This is the first step to an agreeable solution in making sure that the list organized in a way that would be hard to comprehend or keep track of. --XLR8TION 05:24, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * What is the problem with splitting off the lists into smaller lists? This list is huge as is. It's bigger than any list out there. It desperately needs to be split off (See how this was done in, say, List of Jewish Americans). As for sources, again, you simply can't source one Wikipedia article with another Wikipedia article! Mad Jack 05:28, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

It would be wise to discuss than to perform cosmetic changes. That is why this page is for. A handful of opinions would be helpful in order to determine is any changes are required. Please wait to others respons in order to gather a general consensus on what should or needs to be done. --XLR8TION 05:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, as for splitting off the page, sure. But there is no question that this, like all other lists, needs to be sourced. Every Wiki article does, and it cannot be done by "look at the other page to source this page". I'm willing to do the sourcing myself, if you don't want to. Mad Jack 05:32, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

That would be great but as you can see from the articles you have written or edited, all the references are on the main subject page. Anyone on this list will be verified so there is no need to put references on the main list. You have done a great job from the articles you have written and I commend you on a great job there. --XLR8TION 05:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, we can't just say "all the refences are there so go look there". There is no reason not to source the page. The thing is - this page clearly needs to be split into smaller sub-sections. It's exceeding the size limit as is. And if we do split it - which we should - there's no reason at all not to source the separate pages - if anything, it adds more credibility to the list. Mad Jack 05:51, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Pablo Casals
I was surprised to see he was not on the list. Any reason? 68.113.104.169 20:26, 19 August 2006 (UTC)Alarican


 * You're right! Hsi name used to be on the list, but you always find some idiot that will come along and delete his or some elses named without any justification. The name has been added once more.  Tony the Marine 21:22, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Víctor Mario Pérez
Puerto Rico's foremost basketball coach, and one of its most famous players in the 40's and the 50's

http://www.endi.com/noticia/baloncesto/deportes/se_nos_fue_el_maestro/123352

Lorraine Cortés Vázquez
Appointed by Governor-elect Elliot Spitzer as New York's next Secretary of State; she previously was a Governmental Affairs VP with Cablevision, and preciously served as Chief of Staff to former New York State Assemblyman Roberto Ramírez

http://www.endi.com/noticia/puerto_rico_hoy/noticias/feminas__boricuas__al_gabinete/133316 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.50.30.121 (talk) 06:39, 24 December 2006 (UTC).

Add the name of Sixto Lezcano
Request add the name of Sixto Lezcano Currás to list. Major League Baseball Star of the 70's and 80's and a hero to many who have played this game we call baseball.66.50.18.75 18:40, 7 January 2007 (UTC)Pierre Curras.pfcn2

Puerto Rican First Ladies
To the people involved, The proper forum for the discussion in regard of the "first ladies of Puerto Rico" would be the talk page of the "List of Puerto Ricans".

I would like to state the following. I believe that only those who have made notable contributions to society in general, be either positive or negative, and that are either Puerto Ricans, Puerto Rican descent or have adopted Puerto Rico as their homeland should be in the list. These should be personal accomplishments which have given these people a certain degree of fame.

A person is not famous or notable just because she was a "First Lady" unless that person's personal accomplishments has been notable. For example: Former first ladies Betty Ford]] is notable because she established a renowned rehab. center and Hillary Clinton because she became a Senator and is running for president. These ladies can be "listed" as famous Americans, yet what did Julia Dent Grant accomplish besides being a first lady? It would fine to have Mrs. Grant's name in a "List of First Ladies", but not in a "List of famous Americans".

I suggest that one of the persons involved in this discussion create a "List of Puerto Rican First Ladies" and list these ladies there.

Take this as an example, I created the article Puerto Rican recipients of the Distinguished Service Cross. There I have listed the fourteen Puerto Ricans who were awarded the second highest military decoration of the United States. Only one of these men merits to be in the list of "Famous Puerto Ricans" and that is Modesto Cartagena because he is the most decorated Hispanic soldier in history. Tony the Marine 19:23, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Please Do Not Delete this Page!!!
As a Puerto Rican, born on the island, raised in the states since the age of 2, I consider myself Puerto Rican first OR Puerto Rican-American? Like many people whose ancestors come from other countries still consider themselves African-American, Italian-American, Chinese-American etc.... This list is useful, probably mostly to us Puerto Ricans to see what 'our kind' has accomplished throughout history. I think for purposes of the list someone needs to define the term Puerto Rican as an ethnicity or just a place of birth. Commonly I think people believe it as an ethnicity thus the J. Phoenix comments arise. Perhaps keep it in terms of ethnicity and add a header famous persons born on the island or something to that affect. --Terwills 23:30, 11 March 2007 (UTC)T.S.T. Insert non-formatted text here

Luis Muñoz Rivera
Luis Muñoz Rivera is the name of two prominent Puerto Ricans who should appear on the list in their own right. The first one, who died in 1916, was the island's Resident Commissioner at the time of his death, the highest elected official since the Governor was appointed by the President, not elected by the people. A founder of a political party and the person most responsible for having American citizenship conferred by Congress on the residents of Puerto Rico months after his death, his July 17 birthday is an island-wide holiday on the island, a distinction reserved only for him, José De Diego )April 16) and José Celso Barbosa (July 27). He was also donb Luis Muñoz Marín's father, and Victoria Muñoz Mendoza's grandfather. Someone mutilated the listing that identified him as Resident Commissioner.

The second one, born in 1916, the same year the first one died, was a senator, the top aide to doña Fela, the last surviving member of Puerto Rico's Constitutional Convention, chairman emeritus of Puerto Rico's Civil Rights Commission, and a prominewnt attorney. His death last year merited a state funeral at the Capitol attended by Governor Acevedo Vilá, Senate President MacClintock and Speaker Aponte, an honor extended to few Puerto Ricans in history. Someone erased his name from the list.

Both wrongs should be righted.

Miguel A. García Méndez
I have reinserted García Méndez' name in the list of prominent politicians, at the same time that I have not attempted to remove multiple names that have less of a reason to be on the list, because it is preferable to err on the inclusiveness side. He was the youngest Speaker ever, has major highways and other public works named after him, was the last leader of the Statehood Republican Party, founded Westernbank and one of the island's great orators. 200.50.30.18 03:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Lindsay Daen
As Tony Croatto and others, Lindsay Daen was not born in Puerto Rico but made Puerto Rico his home for most of his adult life. His contributions to Puerto Rico art, as attested by the Editorial de la UPR 2006 book, Lindsay Daen, The Man and the Sculpture, are immesurable. Among his best known works are the La Rogativa sculpture in Old San Juan (1971) and the Juan Bobo y la Canasta (1998). As Efraín Barradas wrote in the El Nuevo Día review of the book on March 25, 2007, "...tanto le debemos en la historia de nuestro arte a este escultor australiano, que debe estar inscrito ya en nuestro cánon artístico."

Bishop Angel Marcial
With the exception of Catholic Bishops Alvaro Corrada and Roberto González Nieves, Pentecostal Bishop Angel Marcial is the only other ecclesiastical leader in Puerto Rico who has held an important ecclesiastical office on the mainland United States. I believe that his deletion from the list should be reconsidered and he should be reinstated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.50.30.90 (talk) 21:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC).

Gaspar Roca
The founder and editor of El Vocero, Mr. Roca initially filled the market niche for a crime-oriented tabloid left by the closing of El Imparcial newspaper. Under his leadership, El Vocero evolved into what it is today, a mainstream newspaper that can now be described as a tabloid only in the size of the paper it is printed on, with legitimate news occupying its front page and most news pages, an illustrious set of columnists, including Luis Dávila Colón, José Arsenio Torres, Roberto Rexach Benítez, Eudaldo Báez Galib and Juan Manuel García Passalacqua, and a wide variety of sections and supplements. One of his most important contributions to journalism was his willingness to bankroll important freedom-of-information lawsuits that have opened government to intense press and public scrutiny, an example of which is the Supreme Court decision to open preliminary hearings to the press. Prior to founding El Vocero, the Wharton School-trained economist held prominent positions in government and the private sector, including the presidency of PRIDCO. Born in 1926, he died on April 8, 2007. A memorial service, officiated by San Juan's Roman Catholic Archbishop will be held next week at San Juan's Cathedral.

Source:

http://www.endi.com/XStatic/endi/template/nota.aspx?n=194288 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.50.30.126 (talk) 04:49, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

Bishop Angel Marcial and Gaspar Roca
I fully agree that Roca should be in the list. As for Bishop Angel Marcial I would like to see a site that reaffirms that Bishop Angel Marcial is the only other ecclesiastical leader in Puerto Rico who has held an important ecclesiastical office on the mainland United States. If there is a source then I too would agree that his name also belongs in the list. Tony the Marine 05:02, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Bishop Marcial is a virtual unknown off the island and the importance of having religious leaders without clout in political, cultural, religious affairs does not belong on this list unless they have extensive chronology of actions or other activities that make them extremely notable. If not, the local priest who baptizes babies in my parish then can be added on this list. Notoriety is key here.

As for Roca, I do not feel that he belongs on the list. His newspaper (Vocero) is considered by many Puerto Ricans to be trash journalism. His obituary is the only thing that pulls up after doing enegine searches. Tony, I feel unless one can provide at least 5 articles or websites that do not reflect his recent death, than he should not belong on this list. For many, El Vocero is the island's version of the Weekly World News and photographs of gruesome murder scenes and sensationalism is not the journalism professional journalists have respect for. Therefore, Tony and other editors, his name should not be on the list.--XLR8TION 15:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Let me make myself clear on one thing here. This "List" was started by my son and myself years ago in the "Pedia" and User:XLR8TION has taken upon himself the admirable task of managing it.  This is one of the things that I admire about User:XLR8TION, because managing a list like this is no easy task.  It is a shame that we have so many talented Boricua editors in this project who have not helped in this task for lack of interest.

I myself have never heard of Bishop Marcial. However, that doesn't mean that he is a non-notable. Until his notability can be established I can see no reason for his inclusion.

In regard to Roca, he was the founder of "El Vocero" which even though is a newspaper that only brings out the negative part of our society, is still the most read newspaper and the one with the largest circulation in the island. "El Vocero" in a sad way has served its social proposes by exposing the widespread political and moral corruption that unfortunately is part of our society. People like reading about that, I guess that's what has made the "Comay" so popular. However, Roca's notability cannot be fully established with an obituary.

Here is a suggestion. If you believe that their is a Boricua who is notable and deserves to be on the list, write an article about that person following wikipedias guidelines and then post him. If you would like for someone else to write the article, you will have a better chance of seeing your request realized if you post it in the "Tasks" section of WikiProject Puerto Rico then if you place the request in Wikipedias requested articles. Logic tells us that it more likely that a Puerto Rican will write a Puerto Rican related article. Tony the Marine 17:43, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Tony, excellent point there regarding notable achievements for an individual to be added to the list. I removed Alex Croatto (Tony Croatto's son) from the list because he isn't a person who made a name for himself (not yet) but instead was chosen to join a band simply because of his famous surname. Mara, on the other hand is an estbalished actress with a sizeable filmography and therefore should be added. I feel that Roca is a person who should not be on the list simply because of his onbituary. El Vocero is only read on the island and in PR communities in the states (New York, Chicago, Orlando..places where there are sizeable communities). It is not an international read periodical such as El Nuevo Dia, New York Times, etc. The list should clearly reflect important (and sometimes notorious) achievements or other actions that have help the individual gain notoriety. Otherwise, the list would be a free for all place to shamelessly plug their MySpace pages, singles, blogs, etc.. Keeping the list concise, manageable and confirmable (as Tony did when he pointed out to me that Sylvia Mendez's mother was PR; something I didn't know) is the goal of the list. It should be a showcase for this site on how a successful list can be managed and expanded.--XLR8TION 18:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

While El Vocero was once a tabloid-type newspaper, for many years it has become a mainstream news daily. It no longer dramatizes crime stories. One of Don Gaspar's achievements is that while his paper's initial growth and profitability stemmed from its initial tabloid-style sensationalist journalism, he dared to experiment with turning it into a mainstream newspaper and the experiment worked! In addition, contrary to all the other newspaper publishers, Don Gaspar initiated several expensive-to-litigate freedom-of-information lawsuits against the government and won. To win a lawsuit against the Judiciary Branch to force them to stop denying access of journalists to preliminary proceedings in criminal cases and winning was particularly admirable. While others editorialize about the freedom of the press, he put his money where his mouth was. He's certainly a more notable journalist than Rafael Bracero or Luz Nereida Vélez.

On the issue that Mr. Roca successfully led the charge in defending freedom of the press in the courts, I just ran across a writing by the attorney he retained to win most of those landmark cases. http://vocero.com/noticias.asp?s=Comentarios&n=90830

The article that you pulled up is from El Vocero. I find it a bit biased that an article praising Mr. Roca's actions can only be retrieved from the very paper that he edited. To many (including myself), this appears biased reporting in favor El Vocero and its' staff. --XLR8TION 13:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Can we agree that:

1-while El Vocero began as a crime-oriented tabloid, over the years it has become a mainstream newspaper, as can be ascertained every single day by perusing through vocero.com? What proof is there that "El Vocero is the island's version of the Weekly World News and photographs of gruesome murder scenes and sensationalism" characterize it? That may have been the case 15 or 20 yrs ago, but not today nor any time recent.

2-Gaspar Roca bankrolled most, if not all, the freedom-of-information judicial victories in PR, as his attorney reminded us in the op-ed piece cited in this section and which other papers would naturally not want to highlight?

3-because of the deep divisions and cut-throat competition among newspaper publishers in PR you will rarely find any positive mention of a competitor in newspapers in PR, except, perhaps, for The San Juan Star and it, unfortunately, is not available online? --200.50.30.223

I disagree with Roca's addition to this list, I have combed most of the list this weekend and removed many vanity page links and other links without articles or any references that can validate inclusion. Roca's only reference is his obituary. Unlike the Casiano family, or the Ferre Rangels, Roca has not made an impact on journalism in any approach. El Vocero usually is palced in the same location on a newsstand as Mira, Weekly World News, and other trash tabloid periodicals. There is no reference if him expanding his newspaper franchise such as what The San Juan Star and El Nuevo Dia did in the 1990s, and it like toilet paper, had remained unchanged in it's composition for decades. Therefore, inclusion will on this list is not supported. I am still combing the list trying to validate certain entries, but just like Roca, if nothing can be pulled up after numerous attempts on various search engines and university websites, any such entry will be removed. The list has seen too many Jovan Irvings (a common entry that has been repeatedly added to the list as a self-serving vanity link). Credibility = long lasting legacy that can be supported with citations. --XLR8TION 04:55, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

XLR8TION, you must live in another world. In Puerto Rico, it is not true that "El Vocero usually is palced (sic) in the same location on a newsstand as Mira, Weekly World News, and other trash tabloid periodicals". Virtually every newsstand in Puerto Rico places all four dailies---El Nuevo Día, El Vocero, Primera Hora and The San Juan Star---in the same location. El Vocero, the daily with the second largest circulation, actually outsells El Nuevo Día in most island towns, since END is mostly a metropolitan-circulation newspaper. As to trash journalism, if you left Puerto Rico in the mid-70's, your opinion would be understandable since El Vocero was a tabloid-style newspaper then, just as a trip from San Juan to Ponce might take 3 hours then. Today, the trip to Ponce, thanks to the tollway, takes 75 minutes, and El Vocero is not, and has not been since the 90's, a tabloid-style newspaper. As to the expansion of the newspaper's franchise, its abridged mainland-US version is the largest selling Puerto Rican newspaper in New York City and other traditional mainland cities populated by Puerto Ricans, although El Nuevo Día Orlando is the largest selling Puerto Rican newspaper in the I-4 corridor. El Vocero chose to stick to journalism, rather than using its newspaper profits to create huge print shops, call centers, and othere non-journalistic business ventures, as the Casianos, Ferré-Rangels and Angulos have done, and which I respect, too. You have yet to comment on the observation that El Vocero has bank-rolled most, if not all, the freedom-of-information judicial victories in Puerto Rico (documented in the Courts Administration website, if you want to research it), which would qualify as a very notable contribution to journalism in Puerto Rico. These judicial victories include:

1-a United States Supreme Court ruling declaring unconstitutional the Puerto Rico judiciary's rule of barring the press from over 30,000 yearly closed-door preliminary hearings where probable-cause was determined in criminal proceedings, El Vocero de Puerto Rico vs Puerto Rico, 508 US 147 (1993)

2-the 1992 lawsuit that forced political candidates to make public their personal finances, and

3-the case declaring unconstitutional Puerto Rico's "criminal defamation" law that had a chilling effect on the exercise of press freedom right in Puerto Rico.

Every newspaper in Puerto Rico has benefitted from these El Vocero-bankrolled judicial victories. Many newspapers on the mainland US have also benefitted from these victories that Gaspar Roca bankrolled. For example, many freedom-of-the-press court cases and lawsuits filed before state and federal courts cite the holding in El Vocero's 1993 case. See, for example, the Reporters Committee for Press Freedom's filing regarding access to sex offenders' data in Otte vs Doe, at http://www.rcfp.org/news/documents/20020603ottevdoeie.pdf.

Most people profit from their own actions, but when your actions benefit others as much as they benefit you, that is particularly noteworthy.200.50.30.45 10:22, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup
This weekend I spent cleaning up this list. Removed many non-notables and apparent vanity pages and vandalism. I also surprisingly removed the names of a race horse! If anyone spots a name on the list that is apparently a vanity entry, please inform me. I will be deleting self-promoting links soon and will require assistance in marking pages for deletion according to this website's policy of self-promotion (aka "vanity" pages).--XLR8TION 11:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Edwin Muniz
Please note that this is a conversation I had with the editor who is entering Edwin Muniz repeatedly to the list:

<<[edit] Edwin Muniz Please cite refernces for this entry of else it will be deleted. Multiple re-entry of this name will be labeled as vandalism Please cite your cources on why he is notable. Any further attempts without reasnable citations will be deleted and will be reported to site administrators for further action.--XLR8TION 19:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Information may be found in publication "Resenas de Puertorriquenos Destacados Iternacionalmente" Tras las Huellas de Nuestro Paso, which was published by the Istituto de Cultua Puertorriqueno and by the Associacion de Empleados del Estado Libre Asociado de Puerto Rico in 1988.

the Executive Director of the AEELA, Ideolfonso Lopez published the achievements of 100notable Puerto Rican Internationally. My fthers biography, Dr. Cpatain Edwin Muniz is inclued on page 26 (upper right hand corder) right besides the Honorable Dr. Antonia Novello, who was the Surgeon General to the United States 1n 1989.

Dr. Edwin Muniz (Captain USAF) states:

In 1982 he is admitted into the select group of Aerospace Physiologists of the space medical program of the USAF and NASA. Born in New York from Puerto Rican parents. He possesses various doctorate degress in the fields of Biology, Bioastronautics and Aerospace Physiology.

If you can't locate this, I will happy to provide to whomever wishes a hard copy of this publication which is actually utilized in middle schools throughout Puerrto Rico. Provide me with a physical address ad it will be delivered.

Dr. Edwin Muniz Jr. Physioed1@aol.com EdwMun9@aol.com

Independent research is not permitted on Wikipedia. If he was extremely notable he would be able to be pulled up after a websearch. Please do not continue to add his name to the list as it will be continued to be deleted. Your actions have been reported to several site adminisrators. Your use of a sock puppet only paints a case that this is a vanity entry. Please cite online sources only. --XLR8TION 19:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC) Really don't uderstand what you are stating using words such as sock pupet and others. No need to be cocerned. You see my dad is published by recognized institutions in Puerto Rico, not a exist by donation entity. Reported to several sites administrators? Are you for real? Is this suppose to scare me? Get a life!

This is an apparent vanity entry. Vanity pages are not permitted on wikipedia. Your father is a non-notable and it is apparent that you are trying to use this site for publicity. This conversation has been forwarded for review and it only validates that your entries are for publicty. Please utilize MySpace if you wish to promote. This is not the site for vanity projects--XLR8TION 20:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC). >>


 * It is apparent that he is the son of a non-notable Puerto Rican who wishes to use the site to brag about his non-notable father. I have informed him vanity pages are prohibited on this site. I have reported him to site administrators for further action. Please delete Edwin Muniz from "Military" and "Educators/Scientists" if you see it. It will be deleted on a daily basis. --XLR8TION 20:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Link to List of Puerto Rican Artists
I put in a link to List of Puerto Rican artists. The list on that page is longer than the list of artists here. I don't suggest it's better--it may be more comprehensive, it may have more vanity links. However, it seems to me that keeping a link from this page to that is useful if only so that such comparisons are possible. XLR8TION reverted my link without explanation and seems decidedly unwilling to engage in any discussion. I know this is a pretty minor matter. But I'd have thought that some good faith attempt to achieve consensus might be an improvement on acting as though one individual owned the page, however much effort he or she has put in on that page, as in this case. --Jbmurray 23:17, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The same goes, mutatis mutandis natch, for List of Puerto Rican writers. --Jbmurray 23:23, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Apparently JBmurray is accusing me of ownsing the page and make wild accusations. His apparent low self-esteem and inability to see that links to articles are listed at the end of the list are quite evident. I have maintained a list consistently and have even spoken to other editors before I delete non-notable names from the list. The list has no fillers just like the one he is adding. Therefore in other to keep the list concise and flowing that should be moved to another section or not even placed in the article itself. However accusing other editors of ludicrous claims only shows that he has poor judgement and editing skills. --XLR8TION 23:38, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * No wild claims from me. I simply noted that you had reverted without discussion, and refused to talk about the issue when I tried to raise it.  Moreover, that you are acting as though you owned the page, as your subsequent comments here ("I have maintained a list consistently") further bear out.  The links I put in are no "fillers."  I'd be grateful if you address the points I made.  And cut down on the ad hominem attacks.  Thanks.  --Jbmurray 23:43, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * To quote your words, you claim in a previous discussion page that I owned the page. That remark has been erased due to one of your edits. Without my careful eye and thorough investigation this list would contain the list of a racehorse, two fictional characters from the series ''The Office", and many self-serving on-notable names. Adding fillers to a subject only undos progress made on the list. Adding the link to the end of the page as you have now only makes sense and helps eliminate not only filler lists but also keep the list in an organized manner.--XLR8TION 23:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Ay. My point was that you were (and still are) acting as though you owned it.  (Though, yes, I did make my point via some irony.)  Of course you don't own it.  (See the page to which I linked at the time: WP:OWN.)  And I fully agree (and have said) that you've put in lots of good work on this page.  Again, that doesn't mean you own it, or that you can or should revert without comment and/or refuse discussion.  Let alone start with your bizarre personal attacks.  Again, the links I included were not "fillers."  If consensus emerges that they should go at the end of the list, so be it.  Can I suggest it might be constructive if you'd pass your eye over those linked pages, too.  Given the work you've done on this page, you should be able to note any obvious vanity entries rather quickly.  That would certainly be helpful.  And that task is made easier for all of us by including the links.  Again, I note that the linked pages are longer: should they be or not?  I'd very much appreciate your input.  Thanks.  --Jbmurray 23:54, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Description
While we're at it, I have no idea what's meant by the following sentence in this page's description: "This would include persons who are known to a large number of people and is not based on the extent of their popularity." It also seems to be in contradiction with what the description goes on to say about popularity. Given my brief experience editing this page, I'm leaving aside WP:BOLD to ask about this sentence first before I delete it. Perhaps the idea it's meant to express, if important, could be put more clearly. --Jbmurray 23:40, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * This would be the text I'd propose:


 * This is a List of famous Puerto Ricans, including people who were born in Puerto Rico or people who are of Puerto Rican ancestry, and many long-term residents and/or immigrants who made Puerto Rico their home. They are listed in alphabetical order by last names, where applicable. By "famous" is meant that the people listed are (or were) well-known, either within or beyond the island itself.


 * This is more concise and, as far as I can see, gets across all the same points. Thoughts?  --Jbmurray 23:56, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I've now gone ahead with a slightly different text, after making a stab at understanding what was meant by the earlier text's discussion of "the extent of their popularity." I'm guessing it means one of two things, and have included them both: that they need not be popular, and that they need not be universally well-known.  --Jbmurray 00:01, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

That's fare description. There are way too many edits that bring up names of people I cant find references for or who are just vandalism. Many immigrants such as Tony Croatto, Julian Gil, Axel Anderson, Muna Lee, etc.. all made (or have made) Puerto Rico their adopted country and should be in this list.--XLR8TION 03:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, this is a problem with these lists that they attract too much rubbish. Which is one reason why I'm trying to increase the connections between them.  There are so many different lists out there (I'm particularly interested in the ones to do with Latin American culture), and although you're one of the people making sure there's not too much vandalism to this one, I want to make sure that the same is true of (e.g.) List of Puerto Rican writers and List of Latin American writers.  And it's not as though specifically Puerto Rican literature is my speciality, by a long shot.  (Oh, though I see you're missing an important one in Tato Laviera.  I'll add him.  He's a great Nuyorican poet.)  --Jbmurray 03:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

De Hostos

 * In order to repeat names on the list twice, the subject should be listed under the category they are best known for. In Eugenia Maria de Hostos's case, he was an educator (and hence writing is a part of education) and is primary know for his education and philosophy contributions, Therefore, he should be listed under Educators.

Another example include Jennifer Lopez (mainly known for acting, therefore should be listed there and not as singer). A blurb will mention she is a singer, however she started her solo career mainly as an actress.

Please also refer to the article Spanish naming customs to list names properly on the list. Two surnames can often cause confus--XLR8TION 00:43, 21 May 2007 (UTC)ion to contributors to this list.


 * I'm fully aware of Spanish naming customs. And also 1) of the fact that Hostos is always categorized under "H" plus 2) of the fact that he's one of the most important writers of the Puerto Rican literary tradition.  Whatever you may know him for, within the section on "authors" he really should be there.  On both issues, if you want a quick source, take a gander at this site.  --Jbmurray 00:49, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * And agreed on Lopez, though it does get tricky when people achieve fame under multiple categories. This is perhaps especially the case for the 19th Century in Latin America.  --Jbmurray 00:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, and a quick glance at Spanish naming customs shows it's rather unclear on "de." That page could be improved.  But for another example (of many), see Francisco Goya, aka Francisco José de Goya y Lucientes.  --Jbmurray 00:57, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

You have a point there with Goya, and just realizing that Hostos Community College in NYC doesn't utilize the 'de" therefore, you are right about placing him under "H". My apologies. --XLR8TION 02:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Heh. It's the wisdom of crowds.  Anyhow, no problem.  --Jbmurray 03:42, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The "Islands" of Puerto Rico
XLR8TION has reverted my correction that we should be referring to the "islands", rather than the "island" of Puerto Rico. When we refer to Puerto Rico, we are normally referring to Puerto Rico in the political, rather than geographic sense. In the political sense, we are referring to the jurisdiction that includes the island called "Puerto Rico", three other populated islands, including the island of San Juan (which includes, Old San Juan and Puerta de Tierra) which is physically detached from the island of Puerto Rico, the island of Vieques and the island of Culebra. It also includes several unpopulated islands under Puerto Rico's political jurisdiction, including Mona, Desecheo, Isla Caja de Muertos, Monito, Culebrita, among others.

If you refer to the island (singular) of Puerto Rico, you are speaking in a strictly geographic sense about the island of Puerto Rico, to the exclusion of all other islands under the political jurisdiction of Puerto Rico.

I suggest, once again, that the introductory reference be corrected to state the "islands" of Puerto Rico. 200.50.30.126 03:30, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * My understanding is that Puerto Rico is fairly often referred to as "the island." (And what's important here, I'd say, is neither the political nor the geographical senses, but rather the cultural one.  Moreover, whether or not a particular individual is well known on Culebra is, I'd suggest, on the whole neither here nor there.) However, I've now sought a form of words that sidesteps this debate.  --Jbmurray 04:56, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The US House of Representatives, in the 1998 so-called Young Bill, made reference to the islands of Puerto Rico, a phrase President Clinton frequently used.200.50.30.126 20:15, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Jbmurray's edit is a great solution to the discrepancy about the Puerto Rican archipelago! 200.50.30.126 20:22, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Please remember that the list also covers Puerto Ricans born outside of the island. As many Puerto Ricans were born in New York City after the mass exoduses during the early half of the 20th Century, the archipelago (proper term to describe many islands such as the Philippines, Indonesia, etc) the list should only cover the island nation as a whole. I have compared other list of notables from other islands such as Cuba, the Dominican Republic, and the Philippines (all that are composed of many islands and cays) and they do not use words that pluralize their respective nations. The concept is representing notable natives and others that have significance with the nation of Puerto Rico. Therefore, the list should only refer to Puerto Ricans in a national sense than a geographic perspective. --XLR8TION 02:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)