Talk:List of Puerto Ricans/Archive 2

Manuel A. Gomez and Luis M. Gomez were removed twice
I included Manuel A. Gomez, the first Puerto Rican judge in New York City in the "Politicians" segment and myself, Luis M. Gomez, in the "Journalists" segment. However, both listings were removed by users XLR8TION and Marine 69-71. Can the two of you explain why you did that? Are both of you Wiki administrators? LuisGomez111 16:09, 20 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Luis, how are you? I'll answer on my behalf. Yes, I am an administrator, but that had nothing to do with my actions. Normally, when a person adds himself to the list, it is considered "vanity" but, I wouldn't revert your name because of that. What you need to do is provide a reliable verifiable source, as required by Wikipedia policy, which would proof the notability of both Manuel A. Gomez and yourself and that I think that will cover it. I suggest that you not write an article about yourself because most people here will nominate it for deletion as a "vanity" article. Let soemone else write about you. Tony the Marine 01:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Tony, thanks for responding. How would I reference non-Internet sources, like books and newspaper articles? —Preceding unsigned comment added by LuisGomez111 (talk • contribs) 14:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Luis, I can help you, but right now I have a family medical emergency. Tell you what, I'm going to provide you with two examples. Go to the "Reunion between the Gonzales and Kouts families" section of the David M. Gonzales article and there you will see an example of a newspaper citation. Then go to the "Korean War" section of the William Walter Kouts article and you will see a book citation. These should give you an idea. If you have any other questions, just drop by my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as possible. Cuidate mi hermano que de los buenos quedan poco. Tony the Marine 14:43, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Luis Muñoz Rivera times two
Luis Muñoz Rivera, the former senator and Constitutional Convention delegate BORN in 1916, has been removed by XLR8TION because of duplication in the list. He is not to be confused with his namesake who DIED in 1916, who was Luis Muñoz Marín's father, was never a senator (the PR Senate was created in 1917, months after his death) and certainly was not a member of the 1951-52 Constitutional Convention. The "younger" LMR was a prominent politician of his times, was partticularly well-known for being the next-to-last CC delegate to die, was Doña Felisa Rincón's right-hand man, and after reappointments by Governors pof both parties to the PR Civil Rights Commission, became its first Chairman Emeritus. When he died, Governor Acevedo Vilá, Senate President McClintock and Speaker Aponte extended him the rare privilege of a state funeral at the Capitol.Pr4ever 01:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I've reinserted Luis Muñoz Rivera (1916-2006) due to his evident notability and sourced him at his page. He is certainly at least as notable as other politicians on the list, such as George Pabey, Roberto Vigoreaux and Angel O. Berríos.Pr4ever 21:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Gen. Antonio Maldonado
Gen. Maldonado, a former B-52 pilot and President of the Puerto Rico Industrial Development Company (PRIDCO) during one of Gov. Hernández Colón's terms, was the main speaker at the Puerto Rico National Cemetery Memorial Day ceremony on May 28, 2007 (contrary to the main speaker at the Memorial Wall ceremony, PR's Senate President, he didn't talk about Tony the Marine!).Pr4ever 01:40, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I just noticed this (smile). Maldonado should be ashamed of not mentioning me in his speech considering that Senator Kenneth McClintock did (I'm just joking). Tony the Marine 14:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

David and Dean
The contributors who have been posting and deleting A Zayas' first name as David or Dean should consider the possibility that they may be debating over two different persons. While I haven't heard about the so-called David, I know for a fact that one of the most prominent figures in Puerto Rican theater is named Dean Zayas. An actor, producer, supporter of new theater companies and critic, Dean Zayas is based in PR. Perhaps there is space for both David and Dean.Pr4ever 13:43, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * David is an accomplished actor who has appeared in many off-Broadway productions and also on television series such as OZ and Dexter. Simply by replacing his name on the list with a unknow by the name of Dean (who I can't not even find one iota of info on) is simply vandalism. What is next ? Changing Miriam Colon's name to Mary Colon? Stop, read the article, but do not alter the name of the entry as there is already an article written on the well-known David and none on the mysterious non-notable Dean. --XLR8TION 15:29, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, a quick google reveals more than an "iota" or two of information about this Dean Zayas: a NYT review of a play he directed for the Puerto Rican Travelling Theatre, for instance.; a mention on the page of the Puerto Rican Travelling Theatre, also, where he is described as "Director of the Theatre Department of the University of Puerto Rico.". Oh, and here's what seems to be his CV.  Whether he really satisfies the notability criterion may be arguable: the "Travelling Theatre" is a university group, rather than a professional one.  However, this is a list rather than an article, so arguably the barrier for entry could be lower than otherwise.  Anyhow, it's clear that Dean Zayas exists, and that he has some claim to notability, albeit a fairly weak one.  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 17:37, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Dean Zayas also hosts a cultural program on Puerto Rico's PBS, WIPR-TV.Pr4ever 20:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not involved in this dispute. I was only an outside observer simply bringing to your attention that apparently there are two Puerto Ricans surnamed Zayas who some people consider notable.  As a resident of Puerto Rico I had not heard of David.  Based on what you state, he sure sounds notable.  Likewise, Í'm simply stating the fact that Puerto Rico-based Dean Zayas is a well known person associated with the theatrical life in Puerto Rico.  If everyone involved becomes aware that there is a David AND a Dean, then no one should make the mistake of replacing one name for another, but simply gauge whether both are notable enough to share two adjacent spots on the List.Pr4ever 15:38, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Dagmar
The Dagmar I know is an extremely well-known Hispanic-sounding TV hostess (currently tho co-host with Raymond Dalmau of WKAQ-TV Telemundo's midday locally-produced live program "Día a Día" so once again we may be confusing her with a West Virginian Anglo. Her career spans over two decades and she is prominent enough to merit being on the list.Pr4ever 13:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Simply by adding the name of someone with the same name of an Anglo-hostess and after repeated edits and removals, the name simply appears again, that can be labeled as vandalism. I have removed many names of people apparently entered by kids who want to brag that they are on such list, however, notoriety is key here.  I have never heard of a PR named Dagmar and her fame/contributions to the main goal of this list simply doesn't validate her entry. --XLR8TION 15:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Pr4ever,it's certainly true that searching for "Dagmar" plus "Raymond Dalmau", the only references that appear come from Wikipedia or one of its mirrors. While I've run into problems before with XLR8TION's somewhat over-eager guardianship of this page, it does seem fair enough to ask for some kind of source if there is a dispute such as this one.  Can you provide one?  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 17:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * For your knowledge, you're referring to the wrong Raymond. It's not Raymond Dalmau, he's  a former super star of Puerto Rico's BSN basketball league.  The Raymond you're referring to is Raymond Arrieta, a famous Puerto Rican comedian, and television host. Pr4ever is totally right and accurate about Dagmar, but unfortunately, there are no sources of information to back her up.  Thank you, Pr4ever for your accurate statements. Congratulations.

--Entre-Nos 05:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Dagmar is so notable among Puerto Ricans that her critical condition after surgery to remove half her liver has become the top front-page story in today's Primera Hora, one of PR's top three daily newspapers. See: http://www.primerahora.com/noticia/otros_asi/espectaculos_asi/descartado_que_padezca_de_cancer/136115

I have re-posted her name.Pr4ever (talk) 05:24, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

A proposal regarding this list's maintenance
My understanding is that some Wikipedia lists explicitly state that they should not be edited without prior discussion on the talk page. It seems that informally, given XLR8TION's zealous patrolling of additions, in fact we have a similar situation here. Why not make it explicit? State on the page that editors are welcome to suggest additions (or deletions, no doubt), but subject to the establishment of consensus on the talk page.

Then I would be happy to give XLR8TION carte blanche to continue monitoring and deleting additions that are not backed up by arguments or sources posted and agreed upon here at the talk page.

As for Pr4ever's recent suggestions: I'm convinced of the younger Luis Muñoz Rivera's notability, am halfway convinced of Dean Zayas's, but not of either Gen. Antonio Maldonado's or Dagmar's.

And I propose also that those who are passionately convinced of an individual's notability should be prepared to create a page about him or her, as Pr4ever has done for Muñoz Rivera. (I'll admit that I should do the same for the magnificent poet Tato Laviera... I will when I get half the chance, I promise!)  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 21:33, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Regarding jbmurray's wild, baseless, and offesnive accusations, if it wasn't for an ivestigative eye and trying to validate an entry on this list, than Fulano, Fulana and Fulanito will all have entries on this list simply because they claim that they are Puerto Rican. I have literally removed racehorses, fictional characters from television series, and countless vandalism entires even before jbmurray decided to jump on board to monitor this list. It takes dedication, energy and a desire to promote and defend the list's purpose than have others use it to denigrate Puerto Ricans as a whole. Therefore thinking before speaking is highly recommended as by the sound of your Anglo surname, I would recommend that cultural sensitivity and respect be given to ethnic Puerto Ricans.--XLR8TION 23:01, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not making any "accusations"! Indeed, I'm suggesting a way in which to give you what I termed "carte blanche to continue monitoring and deleting additions that are not backed up by arguments or sources posted and agreed upon here at the talk page."  Instead of seeing insults where there are none (let alone adding a few of your own), why not address the proposal?  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 23:09, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * XLR8TION, you should apply to yourself the words you dedicated to Jbmurray. They're a clear perception of your own self. Wake up.  It's about time you recognize your bad procedure.--Entre-Nos 06:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I deleted John Leguiziamo(spelling?) because his bio states that he was born in Bogota, Columbia.Reinoe (talk) 17:02, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

John's father, Alfredo, is Puerto Rican. I re-added name to the list The list clearly states anyone of Puerto Rican ancestry can be added, regardless of where they were born. Joaquin Phoenix, Luis Miguel and many notable celebs can also be added because they were born on the island.--XLR8TION (talk) 17:48, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Mario Pabón
Responding to XLR8TION's request for information, Mario Pabón was probably the best known television director in Puerto Rico, and probably directed more "novelas" or soap operas (or television series or whatever the culturally correct phrase is today!) and specials in the 60's, 70's, and 80's in Puerto Rico's local television stations. I believe he died a few years ago and, yes, Marian Pabón is a very talented and well-known actress who was his daughter. I don't have any sources and am writing from memory as someone who was not a novelas fan and doesn't follow the local entertainment scene closely. Pr4ever 21:04, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Pr4eVER,do you have any web links of Mario? If so, please post them on this page. I found it odd that he is mentioned in a blurb however doesn't have an article on this site. --XLR8TION 19:01, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Pr4ever, even though you don't follow the local entertainment scene closely, your knowledge about it, is with much greater accuracy, than XLR8TION's alleged expertise in this topic, who claims to be a "connoisseur" of Puerto Rican celebrities, and he's not, unfortunately. Worst of all, he refuses to beleive that you or myself are right in our arguments. He needs help. XLR8TION, definitely suffers from a a psychological disorder of thoughts. Pr4ever, your statements about Mario Pabón are correct. You have a great memory. Congratulations, again. --Entre-Nos 06:36, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Pablo Casals
Even more relevant (for this list) than the fact that Pablo/Pau Casals was born in Spain is the fact that his mother was from Mayagüez, Puerto Rico. Pr4ever 21:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Pablo's mother was originally from Mayagüez. This fact allowed him to be granted asylum in Puerto Rico during the Franco Regime. Other politicians such as President Juan Bosch of the Dominican Republic also claimed the right to asylum in Puerto Rico simply because one of the fact that one of their parents was of Puerto Rican ancestry. --XLR8TION 15:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Unconstructive Edits
An editor who has been using multiple sock puppet accounts has been continously vandalizing the page with many unconstructive edits. Many of his edits have changed the names of many artists when their names haven't changed at all as a result of marriage. One example is Millie Corretjer. This editor changes her name repeatedly to Millie Corretjer de la Hoya which is not true as she has always used her maiden name as her stage name. This person has also tried to move stage names (aka monikers) to other sites on the list when they instead should go by their first name.

Some examples include and Daddy Yankee and Rafael Jose. Daddy Yankee's real last name is "Ayala" and therefore his name should be listed under 'D' since Yankee is apparently a stage name and not his real name. Rafael Jose's real last name is Diaz, but he has preferred to use his first and middle name, when then will place him under 'R'. This editor has continously done many unconstructive edits without even clicking on the article, as many of these articles lead to valid articles. Instead he/she has altered the wiki links leading the reader to a blank page. I have reverted these unconcrtuctive edits over and over again and soon will have to report it to the site's administrators for assistance as the use of multiple sock puppets to make repeated changes is a no-no.

Jbmurray pointed out that Eugenia Maria de Hostos name should go under "H" and he is righ, even though he has a "de" before Hostos. This editor has moved names of people who use "de" or "del" before their names and moved all of them to various spots on the list which only causes more unconstructive editing on everyone's part. The same goes when this editor changed [{David Zayas]} wikilink to Dean Zayas (an unknown theater directo) without even clicking on the wikilink to see that their was a valid article. Also, adding a blonde West Virginia actress to the list when she was not even Puerto Rican only shows that this editor is careless. This editor continiues to ignore to read the lists headline and add useless information which is only removed at the end and keeps removing Pablo Casals from the list even though Casals's mother is Puerto Rican.

What do others suggest? --XLR8TION 19:16, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with XLR8TION that women who haven't chosen to change their names due to marriage should not be forced by a wiki contributor or editor to bear their spouse's surname---that is sexist and incorrect.
 * I agree with XLR8TION that artists who choose not to use their given names and surnames but an artistic name should be listed by the latter, and the alphabetical order should be based on the first word of their artistic name, i.e., Daddy Yankee, not Yankee, Daddy.
 * I agree with Jbmurray and XLR8TION that the word "de" or "del" should be ignored when alphabetizing a surname.
 * I once again suggest that David Zayas be left untouched but that when someone adequately sources the notability of Dean Zayas, he should be added on the list and an article should be written (I'm glad that XLR8TION at least now accepts that there is another Zayas called Dean who is a theater director, albeit un-notable to him).
 * I once again suggest that the Dagmar someone is adding repeatedly to the list is not, as XLR8TION suggests, a "blonde West Virginia actress", but the Hispanic Dagmar that, if you reside in Puerto Rico, can watch 7 days a week with Raymond Dalmau on "Día a Día" and who has hosted many other television programs during a long, illustrious career than spans several decades. Whoever is that interested in our Dagmar should source her notability, then list her and suggest or write an article about her.
 * Finally, I agree with XLR8TION that Pablo Casals should remain on the list and his name should remain untouched.Pr4ever 20:46, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I need to point out again, for everyone's general knowledge, that you're confusing Raymond Dalmau, a basketball player, with Raymond Arrieta, the real comedian and host of "Dia a Dia", with Dagmar, broadcasted by Telemundo, P.R. and transmitted through cable in various U.S. states and some Latin American countries, 5 days a week, not 7. Thank you. --Entre-Nos 07:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Let me just point out 1) that the page on Millie Corretjer opens by suggesting that she's "better known" as Millie Corretjer de la Hoya. I don't mind which is used, the name she chooses to use or another if she's better known by that other one, but let's have some consistency one way or another.  (I also note that that article's horribly written.) 2) elsewhere we currently alphabetize Daddy Yankee under "D" and Rafael José under "J" (see Category:Puerto Rican rappers and Category:Puerto Rican singers).
 * On Dean Zayas and Dagmar see my thoughts above, and also my proposal that all additions be discussed on this talk page before added to the list, and that we state so explicitly at the head of the list itself. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 20:55, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Another thing I forgot to point out for other editors, in the header that appears on the top of the list it mentions peopel born in PR or have Puerto Rican ancestry. It also includes many immigrants who have lived in Puerto Rico almost all their lives and consider themselves bonafide Puerto Ricans (and I agree with them 100%). A list of such immigrants includes Tony Croatto (born in Italy), Axel Anderson (born in Germany), Mara Croatto (born in Venezuela), Raquel Montero (mother of Mara Croatto, born in Argentina), Pablo Casals (born in Spain, but has a PR mother), etc.. The editor keeps adding blurbs saying that they were born in other countries without reading their bios. To me its offensive. The late Tony Croatto would be heartbroken if people only classified him Italian even though he hardly spent any years there. Mara relocated to Puerto Rico within a few months of her birth and was raised in San Juan all her life. I am sure on other lists, many artists are not singedly labeled because of where they were born. I checked the list of Americans and Leslie Nielsen, Pamela Anderson, Jim Carrey and Alanis Morissette are all included regardless to the fact that they were all born in Canada. I think Puerto Ricans have moved away from that notion and have warmly welcomed all immigrants to the island with open hands. What do others think?--XLR8TION 22:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Hello my favorite people. I am glad to see how civil the conversations on this page are now being carried out. I do agree with waht has been stated about those immigrants that proudly call the island there home. As I have always stated, "Tony Croatto is more "Puerto Rican" then some people who were born in the island". In regard to "Millie Corretjer's"  article, I have copyedited and removed all POV's which makes it seem as if she was or could have been nothing if not for her marriage to DE La Hoya, as if that has helped her. It makes me proud to see Boricuas such as you people who with their creative contributions have helped change the negative image of our people. Tony the Marine 23:11, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * On immigrants to PR, I see no problem, especially as the list makes it clear at the top of the page that they are included. Again, the point is to be clear and consistent.  Whether or not it might also make sense to add that such people were in fact born elsewhere seems unimportant: they are still on the list.  Meanwhile, thanks Tony for cleaning up the Corretjer article.  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 23:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you Tony for your help in clarifying Millie Corretjer's article. I agree with you when you said that although her new husband gave her notoriety in the Anglo world, her previous work on television and music have earned her fame via her artistic endeavors. A while back ago someone listed Tony Croatto's son on the list. He just joined a new band, but apart from his father's famous surname, has not been able to make a distinction apart from him (just like his half-sister Mara). I am sure success will follow him wherever he goes, but in the meantime, it is important to give due recognition to those who use their energies and talents to their claim to fame. --XLR8TION 23:59, 3 June 2007 (UTC)


 * "Entre Nos" justifies his inclusions as "verifiable". That's not enough for inclusion, as I have learned during my recent participation as a Wikipedia contributor.  While I agree that our Dagmar should be on the list, as Jbmurray has clarified, such inclusion must be preceded by some hard research, to turn her from a "verifiable" figure to a well-sourced notable, as I've done with a couple of names on the list.  Entre Nos should be invited to invest some time and effort in doing the hard research.  That's what slowly but surely will make Wikipedia a first-rate reliable source of good information.Pr4ever 01:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Edwin Muniz and the Topic of multiple entries

 * Edwin Muniz is already listed in military. His work with the Air Force and NASA were of benefit to the national government and not to private industry or scientists who work for the government who do not have a militaryt background. In order to eliminate the need for duplicate entries, please do not add this entry to scientists and educators. The list will get unruly if we list everyone in every category. For example, Jennifer Lopez is a singer, dancer, actress, designer, etc. Having her name on the list four times is redundant, therefore in order to eliminate an extremely long and unmanageable list, please list each entry once. Dr. Muniz work did not benefit independent scientific R&D (such as biopharma, educational institutions, etc.), and therefore as an employee of the federal government his entry should be kept in military. There are many military scientists in that category. --XLR8TION 17:58, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, with you. A person should only be listed under the category for which he or she is best known for. Tony the Marine 21:11, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Vanessa García
Vanessa García is now considered the top swimmer---male or female---in Puerto Rico today

www.sportsshooter.com/juanfoto/

web.syr.edu/~vmartine/swimnews.html

web.syr.edu/~vmartine/

Puerto Rico and the American Dream

galeria.universia.pr/thumbnails.php?album=toprated

www.elexpresso.com/site/ver_noticia.asp?n_id=7096

Pr4ever 03:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

José Berrocal
Appointed by Gov. Hernández Colón as the youngest president of the GDB, Princeton-trained Berrocal was PR's economic-czar for several years. After dying of cancer, his close friends and former classmates at Princeton, Bill Ford and Kim Casiano set up a foundation in his memory, heavily endowed by Bill's family business, Ford Motor Company, which is probably the largest source of post-graduate business and environmental studies fellowships and scholarships in PR today.Pr4ever 11:31, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10484


 * Pr4Ever, love to see an article on him. I did check and he is a valid and genuine entry for the list. Are you working on an article on him already?--XLR8TION 23:03, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I started an article this afternoon. Because I've had a busy day I haven't been able to complete the sourcing but you can already see my work-in-progress.  Suggestions and edits are welcome.Pr4ever 02:08, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Awilda Carbia
This article is apparently a plagiarized version of her biography as it appears here, only translated in Spanish. Plagiarism can lead to legal repercussions. Please rewrite using paraphrasing, or the article will be deleted according to the site's copyright policies. If anyone can assist the Entre-Nous whose first language is not evidently English, that would be much appreciated. --XLR8TION 17:07, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Marta Romero
This article is apparently a plagiarized version of her biography as it appears here, only translated in Spanish. Plagiarism can lead to legal repercussions. Please rewrite using paraphrasing, or the article will be deleted according to the site's copyright policies. If anyone can assist the Entre-Nous whose first language is not evidently English, that would be much appreciated.--XLR8TION 17:07, 10 June 2007 (UTC) ''Dear XLR8TION:
 * E-mail sent to Entre-Nous to my account:

This is so incredible! I try to post my contributions of great and famous Puerto Rican performers and now, after accusing me over and over, of "vandalizing" Wikipedia, now that I've done more researches, you accuse me of "plagiarism". For goodness sake!!!. I'm just using the best refferences I have, besides my knowledge...that has been "vandalized" by you. How can you accuse me of "plagiarism"? The biography of any specific person, is going to coincide and meet by chance, whoever writes it, because the information is going to be the same, it's a biography, not a song or a script, if not, we would be informing different stories and facts of the same person. Furthermore, what I've done is to translate in perfect english, the achievements of these Puerto Ricans, not "copying" the same words in spanish. If I would have copied information, as you say, I would have "clicked" the "translation key" of whatever information that's in the Internet in spanish, and as you know, I suppose so, that the translations from spanish to english in the internet are very bad, totally wrong and unsafe. Definitely, you don't want me writing in Wikipedia, I don't know why, everything I've written has been in good faith and with accurate information. You're not going to scare me with your accusations, because I haven't done anything wrong. Who's on top of everything I donate is you, and you never find anything right. Have you suffered a lot of frustrations in life? Why are you so bitter? You're always embittering me, and that hurts. I'm a good person and I just love to give, and you love taking things away from me. Instead of accusing me, if that would have been the case, you should have helped me, but no, you keep stopping me from giving my donations to Wikipedia and deleting them as you wish. As I've been watching your behavior, reading your strong and wrong accusations, you're much more than an embryo of the worst inquisitor I've known in my life. I won't quit writing and giving my donations to Wikipedia, because ! I know w hat I'm doing and I know my rights. If you would have been nice, cool, neutral and helpful with me, things would have been different. Shame on you.

Best regards: Entre-Nos ''


 * Plagiarizing an entire website in another language is something not to be proud of. Instead of using an online translator such as Babelfish which is what you apparently did, you have validated that you are not an editor to be taken seriously.  It is apparent English is not your first language, which is alright, as many editors in English Wikipedia contribute even though their English is not so perfect, however, when others have asked you to contribute, the first thing you do is created a crudely constructed entry for Awilda Carbia and Marta Romero. When I fixed up the headers, I noticed that word by word of your supposedly own work was exactly the same as that from the Institute of Puerto Rican Culture with the exception that it was translated. This is still plagiarism and regardless of language, this is not only a no-no on this site, but anywhere academia is promoted. If you were in a university, you would be expelled! Simply rewrite the biographies in your own words or paraphrase the original biography you wrote so that it looks original and not copied. Otherwise, it is a copyright violation and will be submitted for deletion. --XLR8TION 22:17, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

XLR8TION is right. Take the opening paragraph of Marta Romero: "Although no one doubted her talents, it's unquestionable that the attribute that accelerated the entrance of Marta Romero, to the television and the cinema was her impressive dark-skinned beauty. Romero, was one of the greatest Puerto Rican stars in Latin America, during the 60's. Success did not arrive overnight, because, by then, Romero, had been almost two decades in the professional business in radio, and night clubs." Compare with the original: "A unque jamás nadie puso en duda su talento, es indiscutible que el atributo que aceleró la entrada de Marta Romero a la televisión y al cine fue su impactante belleza trigueña. En ambos medios triunfó rotundamente, logrando consolidarse como una de las figuras boricuas de mayor cartel en el ambiente artístico latinoamericano durante la década de los ‘60. Naturalmente, el éxito no le llegó de la noche a la mañana. Porque, para entonces, ella llevaba casi dos décadas de trayectoria profesional en la radio y en los escenarios nocturnos." That's plagiarism, no doubt. (Not that it's the only incidence of it on Wikipedia, but still...) --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 22:37, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The articles for Awilda Carbia and Marta Romero will remain off the list until the copyright violations are addressed by the original author or another editor who will take up the task. --XLR8TION 05:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Non-Notables
Entre-Nous has been extremely busy adding many non-notable names that do not have several valid links to validate their entry to the list. Besides asking him not to Plagiarize articles that he claims that he wrote, he refuses to listen to discussion. For example, he has Sonia Noemí, who is a singer that appears on the Institute of Puerto Rican Culture website. She is a singer known for some minor success in Puerto Rico only and has starred in several B movies and television series including the classic "Creature from the Haunted Sea". Besides a poorly written and crudely composed article, some that contain some elements of plagiarism of the original article:

Entre-Nous Text exmaple:


 * Noemí's hits were: “No te enojes”, “Tesoro” & “El rebelde”, a spanish version of “He's a Rebel”, a big hit song from The Crystals in the U.S. In 1964, enjoying her success at the most, she performed her own night-club act with american comedians, Ford & Reynolds, at luxurious "La Concha Hotel" in Condado, San Juan.

PR Institute of Culture Article:


 * De aquel disco, la radio brindó considerable difusión a las selecciones “No te enojes”, “Tesoro” y “El rebelde” una versión al castellano de “He's a Rebel”, que había sido un exitazo en voz de The Crystals en Estados Unidos . En 1964, disfrutando de la plenitud de su éxito, agotó una triunfal temporada en el cabaret del Hotel La Concha, compartiendo cartel con la pareja norteamericana de humoristas Ford & Reynolds.

Clear plagiarism don't you say? He refuses to write original articles and many names of nobodies to the list. I yet again have tagged this new article as a copyright violation. Until he understands the importance of not plagiarizing works and listening to discussion on this page his edits can be deemed unconstructive and vandalism. --XLR8TION 10:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Plagiarism
User: Entre Nous yet plagiarized again with the article you wrote for Sonia Noemí (see discussion page of article for proof). PLEASE STOP! I am not accusing him, but instead have caught him inthe act. Your articles have been tagged for copyright violation and I have submitted them for deletion. He refuses to cooperate when others tell him not to plagiarize, yet he continues. I have proven the facts whereas he is attacking me for catching him red-handed. Please stop plagiarizing and write your own articles word by word and cite your sources with footnotes. If you (Entre Nous) needs help, please ask other more experienced editors for a hand. I am sure they won't mind helping, but as long as he plagiarizes, his articles will be deleted in accordance with Wikipedia's copyright violation policy and his edits will be labeled unconstructive and vandalism. --XLR8TION 10:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * User Entre-Nous continues to plagiarize articles and claim them as his own work. He is his newest act of plagriasim:

From Awilda Carbia by User Entre-Nous

''During the 70's, while everything seemed to be working well, there was an actor's stike in WAPA-TV, and the whole cast of comedians of Tommy Muñiz Productions resigned and created a new production company together, called: "ASTRA". Together, Carbia, and the whole star cast that included Jacobo Morales, Norma Candal, & Otilio Warrington, (Bizcocho), among others, produced the unique & totally different Puerto Rican television sit-com series: "Ahí Va Eso" in WRIK-TV, channel 7.

Simultaneously, on stage, Carbia, starred in a new concept series of comedy shows titled: Desconcierto. "Desconcierto" in the spanish language is literally the antonymn of the word: "Concert". Her artistic creativity, sky-rocketed, impersonating famous Puerto Rican TV stars and personalities of the island's scenario of politics, such as: Myrta Silva, Carmita Jimenez, Iris Chacon, Nydia Caro, Sara Montiel, Lucecita, Felisa Rincón de Gautier, and Sila María Calderón, among others. Carbia's, series of Desconciertos, were performed in many important theaters and night clubs of Puerto Rico, and kept running on stage for 15 consecutive years.''

now from the Institute of Puerto Rican Culture article :

''En la década del 70, cuando un grupo de sus compañeros se desligaron de Producciones Tommy Muñiz para formar su propia empresa, Awilda se convirtió en una de las fundadoras del proyecto artístico Astra. Junto a Norma Candal, Jacobo Morales, Samuel Molina, Otilio Warrington y Adrián García produjo "Ahí va eso" en el Canal 7 y "Sin ton ni son" en el Canal 11.

Simultáneamente, en la escena teatral, Awilda comenzó a presentar una serie de espectáculos titulados "Desconciertos". En ellos, la actriz dio rienda suelta a su creatividad artistítica imitando a figuras de primer orden en el país como bien eran Nydia Caro, Lucecita Benítez e Iris Chacón, así como parodió a personalidades de la política nacional como Victoria "Melo" Muñoz, Kate Donnelly de Romero Barceló, Sila María Calderón y Felisa Rincón de Gautier.''

Note that this is almost a acrbon copy of the same text. WHEN WILL HE STOP? I have submiited the work for copyright deletion and will now begin a formal process of banning his work from the community until he understands not to plagriaze. --XLR8TION 21:31, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * XLR8TION: Wow wow wow!!! Now I get to see your messages here in the mega trivial alleged plagiarism case (big yawn). Let me congratulate you.  You accuse me of plagiarism and now I accuse you of distorting the facts, twisting my words.  You have the ability to convince people, through your misrepresented mind, and distorted remarks.  I repeat & will keep repeating and stating that I haven't commited plagiarism.  Your examples above are a proof of that.  I will make myself clear.  The point is, I've read over & over, the original spanish version biographies, and my interpretation of the facts in english of these biographies, and definitely they're not plagiarized.  Your reading skills in spanish are very, very weak.  At first, when you see both entries, it looks like they've been copied, BUT... when you start to read them,  you'll find  they're different.  They coincide in the information, of course, they're true and undeniable facts, and they're paraphrased differently from each other, even though, at first sight, they seem to be the same.  You've committed the act of distorting information, so it seems to mean something it was not intended to mean, and that's nothing to be proud of.  You keep overlooking my statements, because you know I'm telling the truth.  I'm happy, because if this message got through, everyone will check again.  Go ahead, people.  Check again and try to translate the words either way around, and you'll find they're not copied, there are different statements, of course there are facts that meet by chance, it's logical, and information that don't appear in both entries.  Check it.  Test it, and then after you've done your work, then, you'll see, I've been always right.  Best regards:--Entre-Nos 20:55, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Thought I share some E-mails sent by Entre-Nous
 From: entre-nos@prw.net

Dear XLR8TION: Just for the record, I've never used an online translator such as Babelfish, ever. As I told you before, it's totally incorrect and unsafe. I wrote everything in my own words, and as you asked me before, when you accused me of vandalizing Wikipedia, I used as a refference, the biographies in the website: Fundación Nacional para la Cultura Popular, not from the the Institute of Puerto Rican Culture, as you said. That's a totally different Institution in Puerto Rico, for your knowledge. I took the time to translate the best acknowledgements of both Awilda Carbia and Marta Romero's entries. If you read my words thoroughly, you would have noticed that it wasn't word by word, as you said. I wouldn't ever plagiarize another person's words. As a matter of fact, and for your knowledge, "Plagiazing" is not a correctly written word, and it doesn't exist. Even though english is my second language, obviously for you, it's apparent to me that you're human and made a mistake, writing the word "Plagiazing" in the subject line, instead of "Plagiarizing", the correct spelling of the word. You missed the "r" and the "i". If you were writing this letter to anyone in any university, you would have been expelled. It's ok. I'm cool. I won't report you. Now, seriously, just to get my message through, I've never posted anything in Wikipedia on purpose to vandalize it or plagiarize the words of others. I just want to ask you to remove those reports of plagiarism in my entries, because they're harmful to my credibility and my knowledge. I've always acted in good faith, and I'm not a thief. Nevertheless, I rewrote and edited both entries in my temporary subpage, as you asked and ordered, as a proof that I'm not a copyright violator. As of the information, it's the same, because remember that it's an account of the series of events making up these performers lives. It's their true life story, and that can't be changed. Furthermore, I'm sending you a copy of both biographies, so you can read them thoroughly. If there's another problem, please let me know, but don't punish me as if I were a spoiled child, help me, instead. Let your contentiousness dissapear. I want to be taken seriously, as I am proud to be a native Puerto Rican. Ok? Best regards Entre-Nos
 * Plagiarism is a no-no wherever you write. If you were in a university, you would be in the Dean of Student Affairs Office right about now. You do not know the difference between paraphrasing and copying text. It is simple. Simply rewrite what you have written in your own words, and do not use an on-line translator such as Babelfish or translate word by word from the Institute of Puerto Rican culture. All your edits have been unconstructive and simply you are not a credible writer on this site. Your actions do speak louder than your words and by plagiarizing and refusing to cooperate or listen to advice or reason poster by others, your edits simply will be removed. Please look in trying to write original work and NOT copy. --XLR8TION 01:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Email #2 from entre-nos@prw.net

First e-mail I sent to Entre-Nos:

You have yet plagiarized again with the article you wrote for Sonia Noemí. PLEASE STOP! I am not accusing you, but instead have caught you. Your articles have been tagged for copyright violation and I have submitted them for deletion. You refuse to cooperate when others tell you not to plagiarize, yet you continue. I have proven the facts whereas you are attacking me for catching you red-handed. Please stop plagiarizing and write your own articles word by word and cite your sources with footnotes. If you need help, please ask other more experienced editors for a hand. I am sure they won't mind helping, but as long as you plagiarize, your articles will be deleted and your edits will be labeled unconstructive and vandalism. --XLR8TION 10:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

NOW HIS REPLY:

Discrimination, Inequality, and Prejudice User XLR8TION:

I believe that the one who has caught someone is me. I 've caught you, XLR8TION. The entry I wrote about Sonia Noemí is totally original. That proves that you never read it, not a word. I thought you were a professional. You just saw that Entre-Nos wrote it, and inmediatelly you stamped it with the copyright infringement and plaigerism. It's a clear act of unfair treatment on the basis of prejudice. It seems that you have the total power in this place, who are you?... because you're the only one that's been accusing me and punishing me for nothing. It's the first time in my life I've been persecuted for contributing information of achievements of notorious Puerto Ricans. XLR8TION, I've been nice, neutral, and patient. I won't stop writing my contributions to WIKIPEDIA, even though you and only you decide to delete them, because they're accurate, they're witten in my own words, I've translated from spanish to english, the acknowledgementes of every Puerto Rican performer I've wrote about, and as you've asked and ordered before, over and over, I've used some refferences to comply with the rules. I repeat, I've looked up some refferences, and that's totally different from plagiarizing. So, prove your accusations and what being caught means to you, XLR8TION. I have all my documentation available. Everything I've contributed to Wikipedia, has come from my heart. This takes time, and as I'm on vacation, I use it to carry out this social work, in order to fulfill the dream of every important Puerto Rican of being noticed. I don't earn money or anything like it through this. It's just the satisfaction I get, when my dear fellow compatriots are rewarded for their achievements. I'm totally open... are you XLR8TION? You know what? It's getting very tedious trying to make you understand, but I'm a persistent person when the name of the game is to be loyal to my principles. So, if you want to keep on with your intrusions, your accusations, your lack of respect, and your illogical punishments, keep on XLR8TION, I'm prepared to act against your violence, which is a clear manifestation of your discrimination and inequality towards myself, and that's not something to be proud of. I hope I made myself clear.

Best regards:--Entre-Nos 18:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Entre-Nos


 * Accusing some of discrimination and prejudice is a far-fetched claim there. You have simply plagiarized your newest article. Let me demonstrate:

You text reads


 * Noemí's hits were: “No te enojes”, “Tesoro” & “El rebelde”, a spanish version of “He's a Rebel”, a big hit song from The Crystals in the U.S. In 1964, enjoying her success at the most, she performed her own night-club act with american comedians, Ford & Reynolds, at luxurious "La Concha Hotel" in Condado, San Juan.

now lets look at the PR Institute same words:

PR Institute of Culture Article (in Spanish):


 * De aquel disco, la radio brindó considerable difusión a las selecciones “No te enojes”, “Tesoro” y “El rebelde” una versión al castellano de “He's a Rebel”, que había sido un exitazo en voz de The Crystals en Estados Unidos . En 1964, disfrutando de la plenitud de su éxito, agotó una triunfal temporada en el cabaret del Hotel La Concha, compartiendo cartel con la pareja norteamericana de humoristas Ford & Reynolds.

Very similar, huh? PLAGIARISM LIVES AGAIN! You been caught too many times and now I have so much evidence to ask for a community ban. Please do not accuse others of racism or discrimination and live up to reality that you have plagiarized. --XLR8TION 01:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Very Similar But Not The Same
You said it, XLR8TION, very similar. Of course they're similar. They're FACTS. Anyway you look it, it's going to be very similar. I've said this many times, but you seem to overlook it, and I quote myself: "... As of the information, it's the same, because remember that it's an account of the series of events making up these performers lives. It's their true life story..." , and furthermore: "...you cannot claim a Wikipedia article infringes your copyright just because it happens to cite the same facts as a text or page that you wrote...". Facts cannot be copyrighted.

Best regards: Entre-Nos--65.218.145.218 06:18, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Entre-Nos, this is plagiarism. There are both individual phrases that are copied word for word, but more to the point the structure is almost exactly the same.  In short, the same information, but also in the same order and often presented in the same way.  You can get around this by citing directly where necessary, using quotation marks.  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 09:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Discussion of recent additions
As per the discussion above, there's some disagreement about recent additions to this list, particularly those names added by Entre-Nos. There are two issues here: 1) whether or not the articles that have been written about these figures are plagiarized; and 2) whether they are sufficiently notable in the first place.

Putting aside the issue of plagiarism, I think it's worth trying to achieve consensus on notability.

The figures in question are Awilda Carbia, Marta Romero, and Sonia Noemí. (And while we're at it maybe also Zeny & Zory and Sharon Riley). In my view these are at best mid-rank stars of stage or screen, and that's probably being charitable. On the other hand, they do have biographies at the Fundación para la Cultura Nacional (which is where Entre-Nos has mainly been finding the original sources for his articles).

Personally, I'm fairly neutral as to the notability of these figures. Carbia has had a career spanning several decades. And Romero featured in a number of 1960s films and perhaps deserves a place for having "the leading role in the first Puerto Rican film ever made." I think the case for Noemí is probably the weakest: the stress seems to be mostly on her husbands rather than on her own achievements. (Though the case for Zeny and Zory and for Sharon Riley is weaker still. These really do seem non-notable.)

But in a spirit of civil dialogue and consensus-seeking, it would be good to have other thoughts on the notability of these names. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 10:18, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

User JBmurray hits the point here when discussing the point. What makes one notable and non-notable you might ask? Well, the entries that Entre-Nos has been adding all have bios on the Institute of PR Culture, which is the website he has plagiarized several times (yet he denies this) however, notability in my opinion and maybe those of some historians and modern day commentators is when someone commits an action, whether economically, expressively, military-wise, etc. that cause a BLIP to appear on the radar screens of the universal press, not only the local press. For xample, Zeny & Zory are EXTREMELY weak entries as they are one hit wonders who probably were singing at quincenaras and at the grand openings of Ponderosa Steakhouse and a friend at the PR Institue decided that he would honor them with a bio because they sang along with Bobo the Clown at his son's baptism. Does this make them famous? NO. We may never know the reasons why they have a bioo on PR Institute website, but all the entries that Entre-Nos adds are complete unknowns. Why doesn;t he concentrate on writing an article on an entry that is already on the list and doesn't have a bio. That is what I have been doing lately. His apparent plagiarism and his attempt to add all non-notables from the PR Institute website only shows that he is not a writer to be taken seriously, and honestly, due to the history on unconstructive edits and vandalism (e.g. switching David Zayas name to Dean simply because he wanted to or adding a blonde West Viginian woman to the list that has nothing to do with PR), I call for a communal vote on his entries now on. He has taken away valuable time that can be used to write and/or improve articles that need an entry or work. WHat do others feel? JB, many thanks for your feedback! --XLR8TION 11:09, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I was asked for my opinion and I will give it. One of the problems with the list was that too many "one-hit wonders" or "people with their 15 minutes of Fame" had been added and I personally never agreed to that. That is why I rejoice when I see Users like XLR8TION and Jbmurray who have dedicated their time to managing the same.


 * In User:Entre-Nos, I see a good faithed and potential great contributor who hasn't learned the ropes in Wikipedia yet. So, I will direct my advice to him/her. I consider Awilda Carbia and Dagmar (Man, so was so fine!) among the best female comedians of the island. This was in 70's and 80's. Sure, they had a notable careeer and were well known in Puerto Rico.  This is what I suggest.  If you want to write an article go ahead, however do not base your article only on one source.  By using the format and style of the source, you will be entering in plagiarism, even if you change the words around, your work will not be original.


 * Let's say that you want to write an article about Marta Romero. Try to find all of the sites which are about or mention her.  The majority of the sites will offer different information about her.  Gather up all this info and then create your own article using the established bio format, with sections and cite the sources from which you obtained your information.  To give you a good example of what an original work should look like, take a look at my Pedro del Valle article and use it as a guide.


 * I try to write bios about those Puerto Ricans that I believe have made positive and notable contributions, thereby providing a positive image of the Boricuas in general. Personally, I try to avoid writing about those whose fame is short lived. One of the criterias for notablility is that a person should pass thte test of time. This however, is my opinion and it doesn't mean that everyone has to agree with me. User:Entre-Nos, if you need any advice just ask, I'm sure that we will all be willing to help. Tony the Marine 02:34, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Just about Dagmar: you and Entre-Nos obviously agree that there was such a Puerto Rican performer, and seem to agree that she was notable. But she is surely not the same as the person described at the Wikipedia article Dagmar.  I think this has been the source of some confusion.  --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 18:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * She definitely is not the same Dagmar mentioned in Wikipedia, plus the Dagmar that I remember, doesn't have any reliable sources which cite her. This is what User:Entre-Nos should understand, that even though people like Dagmar had those who enjoyed her comical ways, her notability was short lived and shouldn't be added to the list. I don't see the point of adding a name to the list if you can't find any sources and then that name ends up as an eternal dead red-link.

All entries made by Entre-Nous are EXTREMELY weak. He only cites one article and they do not pull too many hits after a Google search. Simply adding names from the list of biographies found on the PR Institute of Culture is NOT enough. These entries have not been able to make a blip on the media screen. I subscribe to many magazines in English and Spanish (including People en Espanol, Vea, Imagen, Caras, etc..) and these entries are not even discussed now, whereas, Ruth Fernandez, Jose Agrelot, Sylvia Rexach still make news even after some of them have died. Please add NOTABLE entries that if not well-known worlwide, are known by many PRs living on and off the island as well as non-PRs who have an interest or who cover the Latin world. I have removed the entries. Please discuss and do not add without discussing here. --XLR8TION 11:02, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It seems that Entre-Nos has decided not to join this discussion. He has, however, tried twice more to add these names to the list, to be reverted once by myself and once by XLR8TION.
 * I think it's a pity that Entre-Nos is not engaging. (Y para mí, si el problema es el inglés, no tengo ningún problema en discutir en castellano.)
 * Here are my thoughts and recommendations in the meantime:
 * Add Awilda Carbia and Marta Romero to this list
 * Remove the plagiarized mateiral from the articles for Awilda Carbia, Marta Romero, and Sonia Noemí
 * Send Sonia Noemí, Zeny & Zory, and Sharon Riley to AfD
 * If Entre-Nos continues to add names to this list without engaging in discussion first, send him to RfC or ANI.
 * Thoughts? --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 18:04, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * User:Entre-Nos, hasn't answered the message thatI posted on his/her talk page yet. I suggest that before you or anybody sends him/her or any other user to RfC or ANI, that you first state in this talk page what are the expected requirements as to notability that a person should meet before a name can be included in the "List". After that, post it in the Portal:Puerto Rico and ask for a consensus.  If a consensus is reached, then use it as a reference when deleting enteries which do not meet the new accord established. He Dicho. Tony the Marine 22:58, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Here is my feedback on the issue on how to deal this matter:

(1) Notability of Sonia Noemí, Zeny & Zory, and Sharon Riley are EXTREMELY WEAK. Have you taken a look at the MySpace page for Zeny & Zory. 12 friends only!!! Even Tom is their friend!!! Add to the fact that they list telephone numbers where you can hire them only validates my POV. These three entries should all be deleted simply because they are non-notable and all are apparent commercial plugs (aka CoI).

(2) Entre-Nos refusal to cooperate and his constant removal of cleanup and other tags; his constant reverting of pages (3RR) and his eyesore articles (why would an article contain wikilinks to the same article? why is the name of the main subject boldface throughout the article?) are more reason not to take this write seriously.

(3) Excellent contributors such as Tony, JBMurray, PR4Ever, etc.. all are experienced writers that he can look at their articles to help guide him in the right direction. However add names of the Puerto Rican Olsen Twins (Zeny and whatever the other one's name is, Zorak?) and a Phyllis Diller wannabe (Carbia) on local PR television are all banal subjects. Ask around and see if taking the time to writing an article would be worth the time and server space on this site? For example, a musician by the name of German Vega died on Monday. I emailed Tony to see what he thought about this. Although a blurb, the fact that he worked with Elvis Presley is impressive. Therefore I am digging info on him before I decide if it is worth the time and again space on this valuable site to write an article. Looking into a subject and trying to come up with enough references is something that should be taken into consideration before venturing into the world of article creation.

What do others think? --XLR8TION 04:16, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Two Lists?
I found out there are two list for notable Puerto Ricans:

List of notable Puerto Ricans.

Why is there a need for two lists? Is there a way we can merge these lists?

--XLR8TION 03:54, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll tell you the history of both lists. Years ago my son and I started this list, at first it was called "List of famous Puerto Ricans" with time people kept on messing with it, adding every NN imaginable and the list was not only a mess, but unmanageable (That was before XLR8TION came along to help).

I proposed the creation of the "List of notable Puerto Rico" with the objective that only those Puerto Ricans who are "highly" notable and who meet an established "criteria" be added. Thereby, giving us a certain amount of control over who should be on the list and thereby keeping the list from becoming a mess.

The new list passed consensus in the Portal: Wikiproject/Puerto Rico and was approved. The criteria was established see:WikiProject Puerto Rico/Notability Criteria and approved. The editors who were willing to help out in making sure that the "criteria" is meet, signed their names.

So, far the "List of notable Puerto Ricans" has been a total success and there have been no major problems. Really, think about it. Maybe it would be a good idea to transfer the notable names in this list to the other one where at least there are a set of rules and then eliminate this list. Tony the Marine 05:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Tony, many thanks for bringing up the fact that the other list was approved. Had no idea. So uyour proposal is to take the names from this list and then transfer it to the other, right? If that is the case and it helps eliminate the lack of criteria this list has presently than I am up for it and would be glad to lend a hand to make sure the transfer is a success. --XLR8TION 10:58, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I vote for a merge, too. --jbmurray (talk|contribs) 17:41, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Good, it shall be done. Go to your talk pages. Tony the Marine 20:16, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Facts
Dear XLR8TION:

Hi! How are you dear! Well, it seems you haven't received my e-mails with the revised biographies, and you keep taking out of context, phrases from my entries. I recognize english is my second language, but I write it quite well. It's obvious, spanish is your second language because, you wouldn't have ever stated that my entries are word by word translations. Wrong! And as I've always told you many times before, I'm not copying information, I just write facts, and facts can't be copyrighted. Let me give you an example; if a book, newspaper, etc., says: "John Doe realizó una grabación discográfica que tuvo mucho éxito. Una de las canciones que más difusión tuvo fue: "Whatever". Doe es uno de los mejores cantantes del Polo Norte..." ... Translation: "John Doe recorded a very successful album. One of the songs that had a great deal of diffusion was: "Whatever". Doe is one of the best singers of the North Pole...". First, this is a translation of an example of a fact. Even though it was almost written "word by word", as you might say, it's not plagiarism, because it's not a literary work. These words in sentences, are example FACTS. I repeat, quote, & state again: Facts can't be copyrighted.

Furthermore, you say I've refused to write original articles. How can you say that? That's not true. I've been very nice to you, and I've rewritten and edited my articles many times for your sake (even though I've always considered them originals... checked out facts), I've sent them to you through e-mail, and you keep reffering to the first articles. You also say I keep adding names of "nobodies", to the List of famous Puerto Ricans. NOBODIES? That's a conclusive proof that you don't know facts about us, the real Puerto Ricans, born in Puerto Rico and our notorious celebrities. It's evident, you weren't born and raised in Puerto Rico, as I've seen a great number of unknown people in your list, claiming they are notorious. If you think Awilda Carbia, Marta Romero, Sonia Noemí, Zeny & Zory, Puchi Balseiro, Alba Nydia Díaz and many more, are nobodies, you should check this with your Puerto Rican peers. As a matter of fact, I'm one of them. You should learn more about our Puerto Rican popular culture. You can ask: Javier Santiago, director of the Fundacion Nacional de la Cultura Popular, (not the Puerto Rico Institute of Culture, as you've always stated, and I've corrected you over and over), or if you wish, you can also ask: Dr. Jose Luis Vega, director of the Puerto Rican Institute of Culture, as you've incorrectly mentioned before. The latter is a completely different institution from the "Fundación", both well known and certified institutions, for your knowledge, again. How can you say my articles are not laudable? I know it's your opinion, I respect it, but I don't share it. I haven't maliciously destroyed anything in my life. My contributions are constructive and verifiable. I hope you don't overlook my statements again.

Best regards: --Entre-Nos 19:30, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Sonia_Noem%C3%AD"


 * Entre-Nos, your words are useless filler for the voids found on this page. The fact is that you plagiarized. By accepting guilt and finding methods in preventing further incidents like the ones that many on this page witnessed this past weekend, can we move on to a creative forum that make Puerto Ricans look like successful, honest, and productive members of the global community. It is apparent yo have been evicted due to your refusal to cooperate and write original articles. Face up to your mistakes and adhere to Wikipedia's policy on research, notability and plagiarism and you'll be readmitted. Otherwise, your words mean nothing. --XLR8TION 03:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * XLR8TION, I beleive we both agree in something. My words mean nothing to you, and you consider them, useless fillers. I think the same about yours. As a matter of fact, your words mean nothing to me and I also consider them useless fillers.  That's a step forward!  As far as I know, I haven't been evicted. What for?  Have you?--Entre-Nos 07:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Face reality and learn how to cooperate. Isn't that something they taught you in Kindergarten. Many on this site (see discussion pages of articles) have declared that your writing is wretched and your articles are an eyesore. You apparently don't like to be criticized. Please lose the complex and do not plagiarize or try to change the conversation here. This will be the last response that I will provide to this topic as your pointless babble is taking up valuable time and space on this site. --XLR8TION 10:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

XLR8TION's Insults & Contemptuous Speech
I'm flabbergasted at XLR8TION's lack of respect to some of the personalities I've wrote about. Even though he doesn't consider them notables, and even if they weren't, doesn't give him the right to deliberately write malicious belittling comments about them and I quote him, when he refers to Zeny & Zory:..."they are one hit wonders who probably were singing at quincenaras and at the grand openings of Ponderosa Steakhouse and a friend at the PR Institue decided that he would honor them with a bio because they sang along with Bobo the Clown at his son's baptism..." I can't beleive a Wikipedia administrator wrote the latter phrase. He also made disparaging remarks about Awilda Carbia, and I quote XLR8TION again: "... a Phyllis Diller wannabe (Carbia) on local PR television...". She doesn't deserve that comment, and I know Tony the Marine is going to agree with me. Are these kind of expressions permitted? I don't know, but I consider them insulting remarks. Totally unnecessary, really. We may disagree in many things but he must act cool, and neutral as I've done. I hope this human being finds his way, so he can control his aggressive expressions. I hope my message got through.

--Entre-Nos 23:01, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Entre-Nos, listen to me. I have written to you in your talk page to help you in this situation and you have deleted my message which makes me believe that your problems with XLR8TION are personal. Here in Wikipedia we are a community and we do not allow this type of thing. First of all, in Wikipedia we do things the Wikipedia way and "not" our way. I'm not going to justify XLR8TION's interactions with you but, with your refusal to understand how things are done here, you are not helping to bring a resolution to your situation.

When you decided to contribute to Wikipedia, you accepted to do so under the condition that your work was an original work and not something translated from someone's else's work on another site. You are wrong in to assume that if you copy a work that is not a literary work, that you are not committing plagiarism. If you copy anybody's written work without the original authors consent, you can be accused of plagiarism. This is especially true when you do it from a website like the "Fundacion Nacional de la Cultura Popular" which is "not" public domain. Not only that, the website is copyrighted and you and Wikipedia can be accused of copyright violations and we will not have any of that.

Wkipedia only accepts undeniable "facts" from "reliable verifiable sources". Articles written by students cited in web sites such as "Fundacion Nacional de la Cultura Popular", or newspapers are "not" necessary based on "facts" since these are prone to be written in accordance to the point of view of the author. You live in Puerto Rico and you your self should know that articles written by a PNP, PPD and a PIP will differ in opinion and there contents therefore cannot be accepted as "facts" unless they provide undeniable references such as official documents to back them up.

I told you in your talk page and in this page, how we in Wikipedia expect for an article to be written.

1. Write your own "original" work using various reliable websites as your reference. Do "not" copy someone else's work or your "work" will be deleted.

2. Write in a neutral manner and do not use words such as "greatest", "best" and so on because in Wikipedia we are against "point of view" and our policy states so. If the person is considered as the "greatest" then provide the source which makes such a statement as long as it is a reliable source and not a personal opinion or fan site.

3. Remember, just because a person is mentioned somewhere doesn't mean that the person is notable. A notable person must meet certain criteria and one of those is pass the "test of time". I myself have been featured in newspapers, speeches and many other outlets because of my work on Puerto Rico, yet that doesn't make me a notable person.

4. When people offer to mediate and to help you out, don't delete their messages. If you really want to help and contribute by writing about our wonderful people in our encyclopedia "Wikipedia", it has to be the Wikipedia way or not at all. Tony the Marine 23:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "I'm flabbergasted at XLR8TION's lack of respect to some of the personalities I've wrote about. Even though he doesn't consider them notables, and even if they weren't, doesn't give him the right to deliberately write malicious belittling comments about them and I quote him, when he refers to Zeny & Zory:..."
 * Entre-Nos, it's called Freedom of Speech. It's in the Bill of Rights .Freedom of Speech is FREE. Plagiarism is NOT. Learn how to write original articles and do not try to change the conversation here as you are apparently trying to do. Trying to turn the tides towards my direction with weak babble doesn't change the fact that you are a rogue editor who lacks structure, direction, and ethics when writing articles. --XLR8TION 03:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * XLR8TION: Oh! you payed attention to my words again.  You changed your mind.  That was fast.  Then, I'll pay attention to yours too, and I'll reply at once.  Of course we all have freedom of speech.  As a matter of fact, freedom of speech is one of the greatest freedoms that we all Americans have. Even though, it's not "granted" by the constitution, it is recognized by it as a primary right. Nevertheless, as you must know, it's credibility has always been under controversy.  As we know, "...freedom of speech is the liberty to speak and otherwise express oneself and one's opinions...", and that applies to everyone, including you and me, of course. So, we have the same rights.  I've never changed my conversation as you've always done.  I fact, every statement you make is based on your own conjectures.  Your guesswork is full of meaningless words.  But I respect your right to "babble".  As a matter of fact, it had never occured to me that this quarrel would take it's own course.  Needless to say, it's been totally unexpected, but well, it's happened.  Your moral philosophy is quite questionable, but I've adknowldged that's your style.  I never attacked you at first; I've just deffended myself from your hostile opinions.  It's my right, and I'm keeping it.  Finally, you must admit that you've broken the Wikipedia rules as stated, such as: "...be polite, assume good faith, no personal attacks and be welcoming...".  Remember you were the one who started this trivial war against me.

Best regards: --Entre-Nos 10:00, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

To quote Meryl Streep's character's words in the final scene of the classic Death Becomes Her: "Blah, Blah, Blah."--XLR8TION 00:46, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your concern
Dear Tony the Marine: I deleted almost all the messages in my talk page, because Jbmurray told me that I was using the wrong page for a discussion. You're right that your messages were included in the deletion, but I didn't know that it wassn't the right thing to do. I'm sorry that it happened, and I apologize, it wasn't done on purpose. The thing is that 90% of the messages were written by XLR8TION, & he copied and pasted them in two or more pages of discussion. So, I thought I could delete them and clean the page. I appreciate your recomendations, really. Even though, I don't agree with some of them and I'll specify them immediatelly.

1. You say that, and I quote you: "...Do "not" copy someone else's work or your "work" will be deleted...". I haven't copied someone else's work. As I've said before, and everyone seems to overlook it, I've written facts, undeniable facts, I have the knowledge they're true, and based on different external links, personal knowledge and reliable documents not listed in the internet, unfortunately, not only from the "Fundacion". As I'm writing facts, wherever you look in different sites or documents, about these celebrities, the information is going to be quite the same. You also said, and I quote you again: "...Articles written by students cited in web sites such as "Fundacion Nacional de la Cultura Popular", or newspapers are "not" necessary based on "facts" since these are prone to be written in accordance to the point of view of the author..." With all the respect I have for you, I don't totally agree with this statement. These articles haven't been written by students, I'm sure of that, but by reliable people with good sources, and furthermore, if they were students by chance, they're accurate, as a fact. If there is only one source of information, or maybe two, it doesn't mean that it's an unreliable information, necessarily. If these facts, as you say, "...are prone to be written according to the author's point of view..." You're right, but it's a weak tendency, not the general rule.

When you state that, and I quote: "...You live in Puerto Rico and you your self should know that articles written by a PNP, PPD and a PIP will differ in opinion and there contents therefore cannot be accepted as "facts"...", I agree with you, but that's not my case, because politics is a topic in which I don't involve at all, and it has nothing to do with show business celebrities and their life's story, as a fact. It's a totally different issue.

When you propose, and I quote: "Write in a neutral manner and do not use words such as "greatest", "best" and so on because in Wikipedia we are against "point of view" and our policy states so. If the person is considered as the "greatest" then provide the source which makes such a statement as long as it is a reliable source and not a personal opinion or fan site...", I strongly agree with you, and I'll make the necessary changes if they're pertinent, but mostly, they're verifiable facts, neutral, not points of view, personal opinions or taken from a fan site, but thanks for the advice.

When you indicate, and I quote: "...just because a person is mentioned somewhere doesn't mean that the person is notable. A notable person must meet certain criteria and one of those is pass the "test of time". I myself have been featured in newspapers, speeches and many other outlets because of my work on Puerto Rico, yet that doesn't make me a notable person...", you're right again, but that's not my case. I've proven with my references, in my external links, and my knowledge of Puerto Rican pop culture, that undoubtedly, Awilda Carbia, Marta Romero, Zeny & Zory, Sonia Noemí, Puchi Balseiro, Lucy Fabery, etc., are notable celebrities, and have passed the "...test of time...", even though someone or other may disagree. It's a matter of interpretation, not assurances. Despite anything to the contrary, I accept that Sharon Riley and Dagmar, among a few others, don't have the necessary outlets or references they deserve, to back them up. I won't argue with that.

I respect you very much, Tony, and my statements are a confirmation that it's true. I thank you again for your help and consideration.

I will now summarize, with a quote, that explains by itself. "...Facts cannot be copyrighted, that is, you cannot claim that an article infringes your copyright just because it happens to cite the same facts as a text or page that you wrote...".

Best regards: --Entre-Nos 05:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Enough is Enough
This page is for article discussion and "not" for bashing each other, so let's put an end to it. Since the parties involved cannot reach a friendly agreement, I suggest that the situation be presented in a civil manner to the following forum: Requests for administrator attention. It would be best for other administrators, who are not Puerto Rican, became aware of the situation and point out what is expected in "Wikipedia".

Stop the bashing, the disagreements and topics to discuss should be about what is considered "plagiarism", "copyright violations" and "facts". Tony the Marine 01:28, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Tony I have presented a strong case to the admin board against Entre-Nos. I am sure they will take action as he/she has violated many of Wikipedia's pillars including plagiarism, sock puppet accounts (5 accounts in total!), and breaking the 3RR. Furthermore the emails he/she has emailed to my personal account are harassing and offensive. This is a serious violation of federal and state statutes on harassment via electronic means. I have the emails and have forwarded them to the admin board. Plagiarism, sock puppets, breaking the 3RR, deleting notability templates from articles, emailing me harassing and offensive emails, etc. are all SERIOUS violations.I advise others to ignore Entre-Nos and continue deleting his entries until he learns ethical writing procedures and cooperation when it comes to maintaining this list --XLR8TION 02:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Just for the record
I know I've made myself clear, I've read Tony the Marine's suggestions and I'm going to follow them thoroughly, because his advices have been honest and clear. I respect him a lot. But I've had to defend myself, from XLR8TION, because I didn't start this quarrel, he did. I've written my opinions and my entries from the heart, and I've never harrassed and offended XLR8TION un purpose, it has been all the way around. The reason I sent him e-mails was because he constantly was accusing me of vandalism and plagiarism, I answered his letters, but I got no response at all. Furthermore, my letters were deleted constantly. I was very nice to him, and followed his orders, I sent him revised copies of my entries, but he overlooked them. My entries have been taken out of context. My e-mails were sent as a defense from his accusations. When I've been attacked by him, I've defended myself as any other human being would have done. He never helped me, as Tony the Marine's helping me, and Jbmurray with their great advices, which I appreciate. I don't earn money for this, I just do it as a hobby and to acknowledge Puerto Rican celebrities. I have done good contributions in good faith. I didn't know there were so many restrictions, and I've never been a thief in my life. The bios I've written, have been great contributions and donations of notorious Puerto Rican celebrities. I don't know them personally, but I know by intuition, they would be honored that they've been included in Wikipedia. I've been misinterpreted. There must be a big confusion between the real hackers and myself. I only have one account. I don't know where the other ones are. I'm a responsible person, and the bios and the names I've tried over and over to include in the list have been always deleted for the wrong reasons. Tony the Marine offered me, in good faith, a workshop that I'm going to check tomorrow, if I have the time, and I know I will learn a lot more, and make the best of it. I've followed orders, advices, I've edited, and changed many things in my entries to improve them. I'm 68 years old, and I've learned the new technology of the internet slowly but surely. I have a great knowledge of Puerto Rican celebrities, because I've followed them since I was very young. I just want to do this peacefully, but I haven't had the opportunity. I don't play with my knowledge, and I'm proud of it. My only desire is to honor my peers as they deserve. Advising people to delete and ignore my entries, is not a nice or correct thing to do, XLR8TION, and it's unethical too. I hope this "fight", as Tony the Marine stated, is brought to an end, so I can keep on with my good faith work. I don't want to quit writing, because I know I'm already improving day by day. I'm human, you're human, so, we are imperfect. I try every day to be less imperfect. You should try to, also. Finally, I'll quote Tony the Marine's greatest phrase: "... Enough is enough...". Thank you again for your words, Tony. Best regards to everyone else: --Entre-Nos 04:30, 16 June 2007 (UTC)


 * As of today, I'm adding Sonia Noemí to the list of famous Puerto Ricans. Thank you.  Best regards: --Entre-Nos 06:55, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Remove Sonia Noemi article. What was the conclusion of the deletion debate? I stronly feel that she has no notability and the last I check there were more deletes than keeps--XLR8TION 17:54, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The conclusion was keep. Best regards--Entre-Nos 07:26, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * As of today, I'm adding to the list of famous Puerto Ricans, the following names: Lucy Fabery, Puchi Balseiro, Alba Nydia Díaz, Zeny & Zory, and once again, Sonia Noemí that's been constantly deleted. Best regards:--Entre-Nos 18:59, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Hector Luis Acevedo
I've included Acevedo in the Politicians list, even though he has recently been especially notable for his work in academia as Gov. Jesus T. Piñero's biographer. As a politician, he's been the PDP's Electoral Commissioner, Secretary of State,  in 1988 broke the NPP's twenty-year-long stranglehold on San Juan City Hall,  and PDP gubernatorial candidate in 1996.Pr4ever 03:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Manuel Rodríguez Orellana
I rearranged the areas in which he's been notable. First, his high-profile post within his party, second, having been one of only four PIP members to have served as senators in the past 40 years and his having been a distinguished law professor in PR, but particularly in Boston, for many years.Pr4ever 12:05, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Again
I've included again in the List of famous Puerto Ricans, the names of Sonia Noemí, Marta Romero, Lou Briel, and Zeny & Zory, because they have been deleted over and over for no reason. Thank you very much. Best regards:--Entre-Nos 00:35, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Once again
As of today, I've included once again in the list of famous Puerto Ricans, the names of Awilda Carbia, Sonia Noemí, Lou Briel, and Zeny & Zory, because they have been deleted over and over for no reason, just for the record, once again. Thank you very much. Best regards:--Entre-Nos 04:59, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * As of today, I've included for the first time Antonio Pantojas, to the list. Thank you.  Best regards:--Entre-Nos 16:40, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Felito Felix
I see that Felito Felix has been removed without any discussion. While he may not fill the Choliseo for a concert, he is one of the few remaining living singers and composers of the old "bolerista", auctoctonous music genre that most younger Puerto Ricans know little about. While his music is now out of sync with younger generations, you never know when the genre may become popular again, as happened with the Puerto Rican danza and the waltz, which had a revival a decade or two ago when Danny Rivera and Chayanne included several of them in their repertoire (Tu vives en mi Pensamiento and Tiempo de Vals come to mind immediately). If the list is to reflect the current hit parade, he should be off the list, but if we want the most notable exponents of different musical genres, Felito Felix should be reinstated. As requested, I limit myself to discussing the issue, rather than reinstating him.Pr4ever 08:26, 3 July 2007 (UTC) Tony I removed him because of two reasons: (1) His name was out of alpha order on the list "F" surname in "A" surnames; (2) didnt see substantial material that will validate his entry on the list. Do you have any links that I can look at to come to a solid conclusion? Many thanks! --XLR8TION 23:23, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with Pr4ever on Felito Felix. There are many Puerto Ricans who were famous in other eras and even though they are not so remembered by today's generation they are still remembered by past generations and should non-the-less be on the list. One must remember that many of those on the today's list will not be remembered by future generations unless we make sure that their accomplishments are not forgotten. Tony the Marine 21:46, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * and this is where I agree with Luis. (1) Contributors should place the names in alphabetical order. It is easy for someone to post a name and then let some else go through the trouble of putting it in order. If out of order, out it goes. (2) If a person like Felito Felix, who is well remembered by past generations, is to be added then he should be cited by the person who added him, so that the manager of the "List" (in this case Luis) could easily look him up and determine if the person was in "fact" notable in the past. Tony the Marine 23:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * While I wasn't the person who added him to the list, I have taken up Tony's suggetion and done a perfunctory Google search. The only description of him is in Wikipedia articles, although there are multiple commercial online outlets that sell his music and even auction his vinyl records, including comborecords.com, bestbuy.com, and musicaboricua.com, a reputable Puerto Rican-performances-only outlet.  That would suggest that he was successful, if not so much in the CD age, at least in the vinyl age and that there's still somewhat of a market out there for his music. Here are some of the listings:

Vicente Carattini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The trio included the vocals of Felito Felix and performed basically in Cidra, however Felito Felix left the following year and the trio was dissolved. ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicente_Carattini - 22k - Cached - Similar pages

Cidra, Puerto Rico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia By Felito Félix. Del corazón de Puerto Rico nació Cidra bautizado por un sol de amanecer y arrullado por las brisas de Borinquen ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cidra,_Puerto_Rico - 48k - Cached - Similar pages

YOU HAVE SELECTED: FELITO FELIX. Catalog (click for details). Romantico...Sentimental (2002) Romantico...Sentimental (2002) (LIXDEL). CD: $13.99 ... www.comborecords.com/store/results.cfm?Artist_id=652 - 8k - Cached - Similar pages

Felito Felix - CD - Felix,Felito Best Buy's online source for the CDs you're looking for — new music releases, pre-orders, album reviews, sound clips, digital downloads, special offers, ... www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1463389& skuId=7295278&type=product - 76k - Cached - Similar pages

CD Felito Felix: FREE SHIPPING @ MusicaBoricua - [ Translate this page ] CD Felito Felix, Quantity in Basket: none Code: DH-2106 Price:$13.99 Year: 2005 UPC: 700277210620. Quantity:. 1. No Te Ame 2. Una Copa De Mas ... www.musicaboricua.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?LNG=en-US& Screen=PROD&Product_Code=DH-2106&Categ... - 22k - Cached - Similar pages

CD Felito Felix · CD Felito Felix Code:DH-2106 Price: $13.99 Quantity in Basket: none. CD Roberto Ledesma con La Orquesta Pepe Delgado · CD Roberto Ledesma ... www.musicaboricua.com/Merchant2/ merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=Boleros - 93k - Cached - Similar pages

eBay: Felito Felix 45 "Rosas Sin Espinas" / "Machismo" (item ... Find Felito Felix 45 "Rosas Sin Espinas" / "Machismo" in the Music, Records category on eBay. cgi.ebay.com/Felito-Felix-45-Rosas-Sin-Espinas-Machismo_ W0QQitemZ100505201378QQihZ003QQcategoryZ306QQcmdZ... - 92k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

Felito Felix Vinyl Records for Sale - Velala Juancho B/W Un ... Felito Felix Velala Juancho B/W Un Chispitito Vinyl Records for sale - GEMM.com. ssrecs.gemm.com/item/FELIX-c-FELITO/ VELALA--JUANCHO--B-l-W--UN--CHISPITITO/GML758106404/ - 26k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

The following link mentions him as one of the six featured Puerto Rican artists at the 2005 Chicago Puerto Rican Day Parade festivities, so it appears that, at least there, he is highly regarded by the Puerto Rican community:

http://www.hispanicprwire.com/news.php?l=in&id=4250&cha=1

Once again, I'm not adding someone I didn't include in the first place, but the guy may merit inclusion.Pr4ever 03:20, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Prominent but unclassifiable
I'm adding José Enrique Arrarás to the list under "Others" since he's virtually unclassifiable. As the first Chancellor of the UPR at Mayagüez, he would qualify as "Educator". As former President of the PR OIympic Committee, current Commissioner of the Puerto Rico Inter-University Athletic League (LAI) and an active member of the International Athletics Federation (IAFF), he would certainly fit under "Sports". As a prominent attorney, former House Minority Leader and first Secretary of the PR department of Housing, he'd certainly qualify under "Politicians". To place him in any of those listings would diminish his other life achievements. His newest success, however, is probably as "María Celeste's father", given his daughters national fame as one of the most prominent Hispanic TV journalists today.Pr4ever 07:49, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Reconsidering Dagmar et als
Just got back from an almost standing-room-only show, Cosa Nuestra, a retrospective of Puerto Rican music from the 60's through the 80's. The stars of the show? Several artists whose names have been placed and deleted from the list---Dagmar and Alex Croatto. The three other headliners were Otilio Warrington "Bizcocho", José Nogueras and Nano Cabrera. Many prominent politicians were recognnize in the audience, including a couple of mayors, the Senate President and agency heads. I thinl it's time to reconsider Dagmar, who continues starring in TV shows and draws crowds to this show, and Alex Croatto, whose talent is being seeing in his own right, and not simply for being his father's son.Pr4ever 03:39, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Regarding Alex Croatto, although he might be emerging out of his father's shadow, it is still to premature to add him to the list. He should an extensive career of at least five years in order to justify that he is not riding his father's legacy to fame, but establishing it himself. As for Dagmar, I still like to see a filmography (I can't find one on-line) or at least a collection of work she has starred in to justify validity. If anyone knows of a site, please post it here. Many thanks!--XLR8TION 03:49, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * How are my favorite people, "Los Boricuas" doing? I have been a little busy addresing the Ken Burns and his film "The War" situation in other forums with a lot of success. Now I would like to see an article on "Dagmar" since I have stated before, she is truely one Boricua who has been underrated. Here is a link that shows her singing with Yolandita Monge and Lucecita Benitez:  plus she was a hostess along with Luis Antonio Cosme, Johana Rosaly and Eddie Miro of the hit show "Super Sabado" which was transmitted in Channel 2 in Puerto Rico, see:. These are two links which give credit to her notability. Dagmar also hosted alongside Cosme, the show "La Isla Juega" in 1991 which was broadcasted for 3 hours every Sunday. Tony the Marine 04:55, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You forgot her character "Dagmarita" in "El Show de Sandra Zaiter" Teatrimundo and Telecomicas... an entire generation of Puerto Rican children grew up with her every saturday morning. Beyond notable. I mean, there are even jokes about her segments! --Cerejota 02:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

The Alex Croatto comment by XLR8TION I think is an example of the quality problems this list (and the duplicate list) has: it based almost entirely in original research instead of reliable, verifiable, sourced notability. We should care little if the reason Alex Croatto is notable is because he is riding his dad's fame: what we should care about is if he is notable or not. While there are degrees of notability, wikipedia doesn't care about them in terms of inclusion. Notability is binary, either you have it or you don't.

The criteria should be: can we build a QA-level article about this person or not? If we can, that person is in. If we cannot, then that person is out.

I won't get into the articles themselves, because while they are mostly OR stubs, and we might end up having to delete some of them, cruft can become GAs. But based on the general quality of other articles in this list, I think Alex Croatto certainly deserves inclusion and a page, regardless how tied his notability is to that of his father. If wikipedia can have an article for Greg Packer, a guy who is famous only for being interviewed, it can have an article for Alex Croatto. Thanks!--Cerejota 07:03, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

merge from List of notable Puerto Ricans
Both lists serve the same purpose, and have nearly identical content. All of the content in wikipedia is subject to notability as per WP:NOTE. There is no need for the two lists, so a merge and redirect to here (List of Puerto Ricans) should be done.--Cerejota 12:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. The lists are redundant. The latter (notable Puerto Ricans) was created after the first list was not being adequately maintained. Now that both are under control, a merge would be appropriate to concentrate our efforts on only one article. - Mtmelendez (Talk 04:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Some one modified the merge requests to be from the List of Puerto Ricans to List of notable Puerto Ricans. This was done without discussion here, and over custom in wikipedia of giving precedence to the first request. Please do not revert. Thanks!--Cerejota 00:49, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Both lists need to be merged and need some serious cleanup, we don't have to list every Puerto Rican that has moderate success we have categories for that, there are some persons with above-average success that don't deserve an entry here, for example Antulio Kobo Santarrosa can someone please tell me what makes him notable enought to be on this list? I mean besides dressing like a woman (puppet whatever...) and glorifying himself falsely claiming he has the first show in Puerto Rican television for like seven years how is he notable? does anybody outside the island know him? and so on with other entries. - 凶 01:05, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with which ever way the merge goes and as Dragon stated the "Lists" need clean-up. I want to make the following suggestion. The names that are on the list or that are added should contain a reference from a reliable source. Tony the Marine 02:12, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. And now that you mention it, a lot of the pages themselves fail to cite any type of sources. Some are also full of WP:OR. Thanks!--Cerejota 07:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Merge. List of Puerto Ricans are a list of notable Puerto Ricans, anyway. magiciandude (Talk) (review) 21:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Since no one has disagreed so far, I'll probably merge this tomorrow. magiciandude (Talk) (review) 03:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No, I'm merging that article now. magiciandude (Talk) (review) 03:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * And done. magiciandude (Talk) (review) 03:33, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I will source my area of expertise, the military and NASA. Tony the Marine 03:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Unsourced categorization of vandals
While XLR8TION (Talk | contribs) correctly removed vandalism against Gov. Acevedo Vilá, he shouldn't categorize that vandal as "pro-statehood". Many Puerto Ricans, including statehooders, independentistas and a few populares who read and accept the polls (see the most recent CB/WOSO/Gaither poll at www.prwow.com) that suggest that José Alfredo Hernández Mayoral, Alejandro García Padilla or William Miranda Marín would attract more votes than the incumbent, could easily share the opinion espused by the vandal whose "contribution" was correctly removed by XLR8TION (Talk | contribs).Pr4ever 18:16, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Few Statehooders would ever dare to post anything negative about Pedro Rossello and his corrupt collective of cronies. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that the vandal who posted this is a pro-statehooder. Many independentistas voted for Acevedo in order to prevent a Rossello win in 2004. Don't try to convince me or others that a diluted annexionist did not cause this vandalism.--XLR8TION 19:58, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * First, many statehooders did oppose Rosselló's failed attempt to replace Senate president McClintock (just look at the history of several wiki articles that touch on Rosselló's actions), his attempt to prevent Fortuño from running against him, and his attempts to paralyze Acevedo's administration. Second, while there is some logic to your presumption, it is only that, and not a fact. Expressing it as a fact simply sullies your correct decision to remove vandalism.Pr4ever 11:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Now, this might or might not be true, but it is needlessly inflammatory XLR8TION, and detracts from the correctness of your actions: WP:CIVIL. We are here as wikipedians, not as what our own soapboxes say we are... Thanks!--Cerejota 08:15, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism protection
I think this page should be semi-protected (ie anon editing blocked) for a few weeks while all the controversy down home plays out. If words spreads this is wide open for vandalism, we would be on full time RC patrol with this page... What others think? Thanks!--Cerejota 08:18, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * After the merge, which someone above will take on. Tony the Marine 01:16, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Raúl G. Villaronga
I know for a fact that Mr. Villaronga, a former Air Force officer, was mayor of Killeen, Texas several years ago and that he is Puerto Rican. Further should be done to comply with Wiki standards so he can be reinstated on the list.Pr4ever 02:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I just did the extra research and found multiple Google hits:

HotHinks9 ... Becky Holcomb of First Texas Bank and former Killeen mayor Raul Villaronga of LULAC Council 4535 for their leadership and efforts throughout the event. ... www.gkcc.com/Newsletter/May09/links9.htm - 73k - Cached - Similar pages HotHinks8 "We're not too worried about the Aggies (chaired by former Killeen Mayor Raul Villaronga) or those purple women with Barney in tow (the team chaired by ... www.gkcc.com/Newsletter/Apr25/links8.htm - 65k - Cached - Similar pages HDR,PDP,TX,10,Windows Elf Software,3.2.0, CVR,COH,00037518,IND ... ... PLDG,B1,97,IND,Villaronga,Raul,Mr.,,602 Trout Cove,,Killeen,TX,76542,, .... Rd.,,Killeen,TX,76549,20051228,400.00,Tickets for Mayor Jouett for Gala,,,,, ... txprod.ethics.state.tx.us/public/298422noadd.pdp - 16k - Cached - Similar pages MaryBethHarrellForCongress.com » Press Center KILLEEN, Texas — The Democratic challenger in Fort Hood's congressional district .... Former Mayor and Retired Colonel Raul Villaronga and wife Julia are ... marybethharrellforcongress.com/html/press-center/ - 61k - Cached - Similar pages [PDF] Vol2 Issue 1 Final File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML Blvd”. Raul G. Villaronga was the. mayor of Killeen who welcomed us on .... Page 10 — The city of Killeen, Texas issued a proclamation proclaiming November ... www.761st.com/newsletter/090106.pdf - Similar pages NFIA Projects - Drug Prevention Mayor Raul G. Villaronga, Killeen Mayor Bobbie J. Mitchell, Lewisville ... Mayor Charles T. Doyle, Texas City Mayor Smith P. Reynolds, Jr., Tyler ... www.nationalfamilies.org/projects/acad_mayors.html - 48k - Cached - Similar pages Chet Edwards the right choice for District 17 - Mail Call By: Raúl G. Villaronga — Class of 1959, COL, US Army (Retired) ... As mayor of the City of Killeen, he was always available, and without his support, ... www.thebatt.com/news/2004/03/22/MailCall/Chet-Edwards.The.Right.Choice.For.District.17-637550.shtml - 44k - Cached - Similar pages Hispanic Perspective The founding dean of the college was Doctor Luis Morton, A Mexican American from Loredo, Texas Mr. Raul Villaronga was the mayor for the city of Killeen for ... www.seguindescendantshp.com/hispanic.htm - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

I'm reinstating him.Pr4ever 02:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I am requesting ideas from all of you
When my son and I started the list years ago, it was a rather simple matter. Wikipedia was much smaller and simpler as matter of all you had to do was self nominate yourself for adminship and before you knew it you were an administrator (no questions asked). There were only three Boricuas in the Pedia. I have seen Wikipedia grow and as with all good things that grow, new regulations and policies were added that serve as guidelines in making our project the great project that it is.

This list has also grown and with time became unmanageable. That is the main problem with lists and that is why so many of them have been nominated for deletion. It wasn't until User:XLR8TION, came along and took upon himself the task of becoming the "Unofficial" manager of the same and thanks to him the list has maintained some type of order. This is an overwhelming task and I suggest that some type of committee be set up with assigned sections to help XLR8TION, or least that those who are interested will accept the challenge of helping him. For example, I have always helped with the military section, that is my area. The question is, do we set up a committee and make a commitment to help our "List" manager or do we just stand by criticizing and let him do all the work?

Another thing, the correct thing would be that the names on the list contain at least one source which should proof the notability of the subject. The reference section will be extremely long since there are over five hundred names on the list as is. I would like comments and or suggestions before requesting a consensus. Tony the Marine 20:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I dunno, I don't tend to like commitees, you know all that stuff about WP:BURO and all that... :D I think XLR8TION does a good job aunque pierda la chaveta de vez en cuando :)... in any case any need for tough work let me know.


 * In general, I do not like redlinks in list articles. A good measure (although not the only one) of notability is if the given individual actually has an article in wikipedia. Since articles must be about notable subjects and meet OR criteria, it is safe to assume that if a name in the list is not redlinked.


 * My suggestion would be to make sure that all names included are not redlinked, and that the article itself measures up to OR/Note standards. That way we do not end up with a long list of references, and at the same time force ourselves to at least start stub articles, rather than redlink ;).


 * There is also a number of articles about notable puerto ricans that existed before this list, or the wikiproject itself, that might need much more hunting. I found so far Mayra Santos-Febres, but there are others, I am sure. Thanks!--Cerejota 07:18, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I would certainly be willing to hunt for sources for the list. Maintaining it, however, requires a lot of hard work and dedication, so I do not think I would be able to help with that. I suggest that we set some clear standards for notability, though. -- Boricua  e  ddie  23:06, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I fully agree with Eddie. Tony the Marine 01:39, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Question
Does Xavier Romeu who is in the "Politicians" section, merit to be on the List of Puerto Ricans? Tony the Marine 05:04, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If he should be on the list---and that's debatable, it should be under "Others" and not under "Politicians". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pr4ever (talk • contribs) 02:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

A. Cecil Snyder
I've included him in the list because, although virtually unknown to contemporary Puerto Ricans, he was an important figure in Puerto Rico between the 1940's and 1950's, as the United States Attorney who prosecuted Pedro Albizu Campos, who appeared before a US Senate Committee to vouch for Muñoz, who was accused of having Communist leanings, who, while serving as Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, actively advised Puerto Rico's Constitutional Convention, was appointed by Muñoz as Puerto Rico's last non-native Chief Justice, and later resigned under a cloud.Pr4ever 02:54, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Job well done. Tony the Marine 03:28, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

"Redlink" removal
Assuming that redlinks are NN that should be removed is the easy way for us not to do our job. Band leader José Luis Moneró is much more notable than others that remain on the list. Tenor Antonio Barasorda likewise. The fact that one of us has not sat down to research and write at least a stub about someone doesn't mean that he or she is not notable. I've tried to write about several notables who were redlined to at least remove the red in their names. I urge others to take that more difficult road less traveler, rather than the facile, but incorrect assumption that redliners are all non-notables.Pr4ever (talk) 03:10, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree 100% with Pr4ever but, I believe and I suggest that whenever a "Redlink" is added it should at least be accompanied by a "reference" so that those who do not know the subject in question will at least have a reference to the subjects notability. Tony the Marine (talk) 23:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Journalists in Puerto Rico
As I took note of the justified inclusion of María de Lourdes García in the Journalists section, I noted a significant lack of balance between Puerto Rican journalists working in Puerto Rico and Puerto Rican journalists working on the mainland. 23 of the 29 listed don't work in Puerto Rico. Almost all those listed from the mainland are still active while several of the handful in Puerto Rico are inactive (Aníbal González Irizarry) or dead. I have in the past had some of my inclusions removed, such as Rubén Sánchez, the only journalist with a daytime daily and primetime weekly TV news interview program who is also Univisión Radio's top morning drive-time newscaster, and Luis Penchi, who hosts the longest running (and highly-rated) weekly news talk format, in addition to being Radio Isla's news director and WORO-TV's fringe-prime news interview program. The removal of these and other names has left the list unbalanced, as if to be notable, a Puerto Rican journalist is almost required to migrate.Pr4ever (talk) 04:10, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I too have that concern. If being known by possibly more than 4 million people isn't being notable, I don't know what is. Even "Toño Bicicleta" and "Tito Kayak" are part of the list as notable Puerto Ricans. I daresay there are many, many young Puerto Ricans who don't even know who "Toño Bicicleta" is but would easily know and be able to describe the notability of Rubén Sánchez, for example. On the other hand, you will find that there are articles about every journalist in the U.S. television who might not be notable at all outside the U.S. (meaning that they do not qualify for international notability). Same concept should apply for Puerto Ricans notability. Just my opinion though. ~ RayLast  « Talk! » 14:41, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The list should have the names of "notable" Puerto Ricans whose notability is within Wikipedia policy and could be verified by a reliable source as established by policy. I the case of Ruben Sanchez, of course his name should be included. It should also be accompanied by a verifiable source. There are many notable Puerto Ricans now who will become unknowns to the future generations and just as "Toño Bicicleta," was known to past generations and that is why this project is so important. The people who have contributed to our history should always be known regardless of whether their contributions were positive or negative.

There should be an established criteria to follow. My son and I were the creators of this list, however when we saw how disorganized people became, we started a new one titled "List of notable Puerto Ricans" with a criteria. The criteria established and approved was this: WikiProject Puerto Rico/Notability Criteria. Now, the concept was great because there were rules and an established control. What happened, some users wanted to merge both lists (in other words eliminate the better one) and it was done. The following Users wanted the merge: Cerejota, Mtmelendez, ?  and finally magiciandude who did the "merging" (elimination of the other list).

None of these users however, have help to maintain this list as I believe that they would. The only people who have helped to look after this list was User:XLR8TION and myself. Now, we have a list that is a total mess, with the names of people who may not even qualify and with people making suggestions, but when it comes to helping out, are no where to be found.

I believe that the best idea would be to establish a set of criteria to be followed and to require that all new additions to the list be followed by a reliable source even if the name does not have an article. Tony the Marine (talk) 18:47, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll try to help as much as I can. ~ RayLast  « Talk! » 19:35, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Accents
I have seen so many names with their accents missing (e.g. Jimenez/Jiménez, Garcia/García, Hector/Héctor, Andres/Andrés, etc...) that I thought I would try and fix all I can. Obviously, it is not that easy. I have to verify each and every one I change to see if they are not a red link and if they are not I have to rename their main articles along with the further editing that their own article would require to include these accents. I'm not a veteran in Wikipedia, so I'm not sure what the exact policy is on accents. Is an article named Ramon Emeterio Betances OK? or should it actually be named Ramón Emeterio Betances with a redirect for the no-accentuated version? Before I do the [potentially massive] editing I'd like to know your opinion on this. I suggest renaming all articles to the correct spelling of accentuated words and names and adding redirects to non-accentuated versions (whenever Wikipedia doesn't do it automatically). What do you say? ~ RayLast  « Talk! » 14:27, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I will give you my opinion. Taking into account that this is the English Wikipedia and that the majority of it's users do not have access to keyboards which would produce the proper accented letter, I believe that it would be more practical to create redirects with the proper accented names to the established articles. If you were to take upon yourself the enormous task of moving hundreds of articles, you must be careful that the articles history is also moved. Sometimes, what people have done is paste the article to a new name and that is against policy because the history is lost, plus the original author or creator will get on your case. I suggest that you take into account the subjects place of birth. A Puerto Rican born in a Hispanic country will legally have accents in his/or her name. A Puerto Rican born in the United States "may not" have accents in his/her name. For example: Jennifer Lopez. Really think about it, because it is a lot of work and you may end up with unwarranted discussions and war editing. You are more then welcomed to visit my talk page. Tony the Marine (talk) 19:09, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * If I decide to do it I would make sure to rename the articles bringing it along with their history and talk pages using the "move" option from Wikipedia. I would also make sure their official name actually has accents as given by birth. Even Puerto Ricans born in Hispanic countries may have names that seem to need an accent but might have been given the name without the accent by their parents (e.g. Victor). For those that are obscure and prone to debate I would either leave alone or consult prior to changing. I could also consider doing what you suggested by creating accented redirects to unacctented articles. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't planning something "Wikillegal". ~ RayLast  « Talk! » 19:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Rubén Sánchez
Radio and TV journalist

http://www.univision.com/content/content.jhtml?chid=10825&schid=10827&secid=10850&cid=537618

Pr4ever (talk) 22:03, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That is exactly what I mean, add his name to the list with the after it and that way no one can dispute his notability. Thank you my friend Pr4ever. Tony the Marine (talk) 22:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * A reference to sources in the English language would be even better I guess, if we could just find them. ~ RayLast  « Talk! » 13:57, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * In this particular list, in which we expect those included to be notable in Puerto Rico, there not being alnost no online contemporary English-language media (the only English-language daily, The San Juan Star, is not online), many notables have no verifiable sources in English.Pr4ever (talk) 16:23, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion
Wouldn't the plain appearance of the list be improved a little if we added some pictures of the most recognized individuals (with available free images) floating on the right side? Sometimes we can't recognize a name right away but a picture may be better than a thousand words. Obviously, not all available pictures should be included. Only a few select ones. What do you think? Also, I think it might be a good idea to automate the alphabetical ordering of the list and always include real names of individuals with their popular name in quotes or parentheses (e.g. Raymond Ayala "Daddy Yankee"). ~ RayLast  « Talk! » 13:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * In regard to your first suggestion. That was done once, however they were removed by some of the editors because the majority are not "public domain" and not revelant to the "list" and in some cases could only be used in the persons article. Only images that are "public domain" and of "free use" can be used. See:Images.

In regard to your second suggestion = Raymond Ayala "Daddy Yankee", seems like a good idea. Tony the Marine (talk) 14:28, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Ursula Acosta
Ok, now I'm confused. Is it Ursula Acosta or Úrsula Acosta? The sources on her article spell it with an accent. The whole article spells it without the accent. The fact that her parents don't seem to have Latin names may indicate the name should not include an accent. Opinions please? ~ RayLast  « Talk! » 23:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The name "Ursula" in this case goes without an accent. I know her personally and that is one of the reasons which I wrote the article. The reason behind her unaccented first name is that she was born in Germany to German parents where there are no accents (hispanic wise) on her name. Tony the Marine (talk) 00:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

List management
It is a diffcult task to manage this list without the help of others. There are too many people who are adding non-notables and not too many people willing to help manage this list. I have set up certain rules, i9n regard to the addition of names, which future contributors to this list should follow in each section.

1. Every new addition must be cited with a reliable verifiable source which proofs the person's notablility, which is a basic rule in Wikipedia as it is. This will help me to see if the addition is valid one.

2. Every new addition must be placed in alphabetical order. It is easy to place a new addition out of order and to let someone else go through the trouble of doing placing it in order. This is not fair to those who wish to have an organized list. Tony the Marine (talk) 21:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Henry Arana
Died on Feb. 29, 2008 at the age of 86, a victim of Alzheimers. Composed many hits, many of which were sung by Bobby Valentín, El Gran Combo, Cortijo, Tito Rojas, Amndy Montañez and Willie Rosario. Among his compositions were "Sanjuanero", "Por culpa de tu amor", "Samba con salsa" and others.

http://www.elnuevodia.com/XStatic/endi/template/content.aspx?se=nota&id=371652 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pr4ever (talk • contribs) 01:09, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Clean up sweep
The idea behind the clean-up sweep is to remove non-notables who do not have a reliable verifiable source after a verification with a google search.

Note: Some names will be removed because there is no proof that said person has Puerto Rican blood. However, anyone may re-add names which have been removed from the list as long as they provide a reliable source as proof of notability or that said person is Puerto Rican (including non-Puerto Ricans who have made the island their homeland) or of Puerto Rican descent.


 * Judges and Law Enforcement: [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * Will work on Military and Educators next. Tony the Marine (talk) 04:56, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Military and Educators sections: [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * Will work on Sports next. Tony the Marine (talk) 03:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Sports: [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * Will tackle Buisnesspeople next. Tony the Marine (talk) 19:39, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Actors, actresses, comedians and directors: [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * Will do Beauty Queens and Fashion Models next. ~ RayLast  « Talk! » 02:15, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Business people and industrialists: [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * Will work on Politicians next. Tony the Marine


 * Politicians: [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * Will work on Journalists, Puppeteers and Taínos next. Tony the Marine


 * Beauty Queens and Fashion Models: [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * Will work on Governors next. ~ RayLast  « Talk! » 01:12, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Journalists, Puppeteers and Taínos: [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * Will work on Religion next. Tony the Marine


 * Governors: [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * Will work on Criminals and outlaws next. ~ RayLast  « Talk! » 17:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Religion: [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * Will work on Diplomats next. Tony the Marine


 * Diplomats: [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * Will work on Cartoonists and Visual artists next. Tony the Marine


 * Criminals and outlaws: [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * Will work on Others next. ~ RayLast  « Talk! » 01:26, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Cartoonists and Visual artists: [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * Will work on Authors, playwrights and poets next. Tony the Marine


 * Others: [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * Will work on Composers, musicians and singers, from Acosta through Dwayne next. ~ RayLast  « Talk! » 22:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Authors, playwrights and poets: [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * Will work on Composers, musicians and singers, from "E" to "L" next. Tony the Marine


 * Composers, musicians and singers (A to D): [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * Will work on Composers, musicians and singers, from "M" to "Q" next. ~ RayLast  « Talk! » 20:28, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Composers, musicians and singers, from "E" to "L": [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * Will work on Composers, musicians and singers, from "R" & "S" next. Tony the Marine


 * Composers, musicians and singers, from "R" to "Z": [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * I'm finished with my part Tony the Marine


 * Composers, musicians and singers, from "M" to "Q": [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done.
 * Finally! Now on to the eternal task of keeping it clean and sourced as much as possible. ~ RayLast  « Talk! » 19:18, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposal
I'd still like to keep enriching the list. Not necessarily by adding more names (which I'm sure will keep happening), but by extending its usability and creating articles that still have red links. I've been awfully busy with work but I'll try to add functionalities to the list such as the capability of sorting the list by first name, last name, artistic name, and other fields such as relevant date/year in sections like Beauty Queens and Fashion Models and Governors. Also, I'm planning on including subsections so as to make it easier to browse the list. Subsections that come to mind at the moment would have the purpose of dividing sections such as Composers, musicians and singers by genre: salsa, merengue, reggaeton, etc. and also possibly singer, composer, musician, etc. Writers could be divided in their area of work such as poems, novels, screenplays, etc. I'm sure even Military could be divided by U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, etc. But this is a huge task so it will take me a long time. And I mean a long time. I will surely develop all these ideas in a mirror page in my user namespace so that it can be evaluated by the editors prior to replacing the current page. In the meantime I'll try to help keep the integrity of the current state and additions to the article. ~ RayLast  « Talk! » 19:18, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Consultations
Do you consider Waleska Martínez, victim on board united 93, a notable individual? Her link just goes to the United 93 article. Please let me know. She's the last entry to be checked in the Others section. ~ RayLast  « Talk! » 14:11, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * With all due respect to the Martinez family, if Waleska would have been notable in the sense that she participated in the struggle against the hijackers, she would have had her own article in Wikipedia and not a redirect to United Airlines Flight 93 which is an article about the airline and the situation surrounding the events on Sept. 11, 2001. That is my humble opinion. Tony the Marine (talk) 20:51, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Verifiable Sources
Im a little confused about what constitutes a "verifiable source". I've added Marquita Rivera to the list of Puerto Ricans, but she keeps being deleted, despite the fact she is has a wikipedia article page.

Can someone give me a heads up on what I should be doing?

Eugenebiscardi (talk) 23:38, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Eugenebiscardi, good to see you around and welcome to Wikipedia. O.K., let's get down to your question. Wikipedia policy requires that a reliable verifable source to proof the person's notability. Find a source in the Internet that is not a "Fansite", "Talk Blog", "IMDB" or any site which may be opiniated. There are many reliable sources in the internet which may proof that Marquita Rivera is notable. If you want to know what a reliable source in accordance to our policy is read the following: Reliable sources.

Once you find the source then post her name, her notability and the source this way: Example. Now, let me remind you that just because a person has participated in a movie and so on, doesn't automatically make that person a notable person, see: Notability. Therefore, if you can provide and cite a reliable source which proofs that the person whose name is added on the list is notable, said name will not be removed, but without the cited sources it will be. Take care. Tony the Marine (talk) 00:55, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Peter John Ramos
This 7'3" player is, in my opinion, notable. Please see, for example, today's El Nuevo Día: http://www.elnuevodia.com/diario/noticia/baloncesto/deportes/hora_de_probar_los_sistemas/426553

Pr4ever (talk) 12:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * My old friend, you are right, but as we stated above, all new additions must be cited and accompanied by a reliable verifiable source. "El Nuevo Dia" is a great source which can be used to cite the Ramos notablity. Add his name with that source. Take care Tony the Marine (talk) 17:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Luis Hernández Cruz
From obragalería.com:

A Painter and engraver. He studied in the University of Puerto Rico and the American University de Washington in 1960. In 1977 he grouped with artists in the front, Max Diaz, Antonio Navia and Paul Camacho and formed the Puerto Rico organization of abstract artists. From 1968 he was a professor Department of Arts at the University of Puerto Rico, located of Piedras River. Currently he is the of the Museum director of the University of Puerto Rico and works in his studio.

More research to follow. Pr4ever (talk) 16:19, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Rick Amon
Rick Amon was not only the most prominent volleyball player, but has been notable as a UCLA player in NCAA as its most prominent outside hitter two years in a row, a consultant for the PR Dept of Sports and Recreation, director of Kuwait's volleyball academy, director of PR's volleyball academy and a prominent international speaker and instructor. Please see:

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/851/ba2

http://www.cavb.org/2007/04/07.html

http://www.cavb.org/2007/04/06.html

http://www.netitor.com/photos/schools/ucla/sport/m-volley/auto_pdf/mvbhistory2.pdf

He is notable in and out of PR. Pr4ever (talk) 02:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)


 * This not a question of wheather the person is notable or not. This is a question about following rules, it is as simple as that. It isn't an easy task to try to keep this list a reliable list. When I add a name, regardless if the person is well known or not, I post the source which cites the notability so that if someone else is not familiar with the name will have no trouble in finding info. on the subject. Tony the Marine (talk) 03:13, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Ronald Rivera
I suggest including Ronald (Ron) Rivera, who passed away on Sept. 3 in Managua, Nicaragua, under Others for the reasons explained in Ron Rivera (public health) Pr4ever (talk) 00:33, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Great story. I wouldn't place him under "others", I would place him under "Business people" since his intentions were to establish various factories. Tony the Marine (talk) 00:49, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * He invented a filter, was he able to market it before dying? Maybe he fits better somewhere in "Educators and scientists". By the way, shouldn't "First Spouses of Puerto Rico" be "First Ladies of Puerto Rico"? Primera dama is the commom spelling not primera esposa. -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  20:06, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Adolfo Krantz and Ramón Cantero Frau, Gov. Sila Calderón's two husbands while in office, fit better under a "First Spouses" than a "First Ladies" category. "Spouses" covers "Ladies" and "Gentlemen". Pr4ever (talk) 21:32, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * If it's OK with you, Tony, I'll place him in "Educators and scientists". I agree with both of you that Ron Rivera is kind of difficult to place, even though notability is evident. Pr4ever (talk) 21:32, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Perfect! I'm telling you, so much talent from our island. Tony the Marine (talk) 03:12, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, I wonder how places like Argentina handle such situations. Is it me or we are completely missing martial artists in the "Sports" section? We mention athletes that compete(d) for the US and Mexico, yet we fail to mention a few of the practices that have produced Hall of Famers? Where is Grandmaster Rubén Rossy, member of the International Jiu-Jitsu Hall of Fame? William Solano, ditto in the International Karate Hall of Fame? Grandmaster Gilberto Rodríguez? What about Albert Grajales, who is directly responsible for making Puerto Rico the first place in the world to recognize Bruce Lee? -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  00:50, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with you on the martial arts. If they are notable then should be on the list. I used to have a "vecino" by the name of Ricky Camacho, who once told me that his brother was one of the great Karatecas of P.R. Tony the Marine (talk) 18:06, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Lawrence La Fountain-Stokes
I have added this name to the list of Authors, playwrights and poets. See entry on him for extensive list of sources.--Mgdelarosa (talk) 03:33, 25 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for adding the names that you did to the list, but our rules require that all additions to the list must be listed in alphabetical order by first name, where applicable and must provide a "reliable verifiable source" which cites the person's notability, otherwise it will be removed. There are no exceptions to the rule.

The problem here is that this list is not an easy one to manage and I do not have the time to check each and every new article to verify the sources. If a person is notable, adding a source after the name should be as simple as adding the name itself. Thank you for cooperating in this issue. Tony the Marine (talk) 17:38, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Numbering governors
Any idea how the president who held office twice nonconsecutively---was it Grover Cleveland?---is handled in terms of numbering presidents, in order to guide us regarding numbering of Governors? Pr4ever (talk) 00:43, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know if this help but Grover Cleveland is described as "the twenty-second and twenty-fourth President". --J.Mundo (talk) 02:56, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Ethnicity/origin
I suggested to Tony that we list the ethnicity/origin here, so that we can take the lists off the main articles so that this is not an impediment to GA/FA status upgrade, but still keeping the information.

He agrees is a good idea, but it goes to the format.

We could simply create some templates that allow adding the text in the same line, with a link to the appropriate article like this:

''Leader of the Grito de Lares. Brugman founded the first revolutionary committee in the City of Mayagüez. His revolutionary cell was code named: "Capa Prieto" (Black Cape).''
 * Brugman, Mathias Political activist (Jewish)

This would be the easiest.

Another alternative is to redo the lists as tables with the sort function. We could have persondata, profession (i.e. "Political activist"), the notability hook (ie "Leader of the Grito de Lares. Brugman founded the first revolutionary committee in the City of Mayagüez. His revolutionary cell was code named: "Capa Prieto" (Black Cape)."), and ethnicity/origin.

I can do all the work (of course feel free to help!) but I do not want to proceed until we have some consensus.--Cerejota (talk) 05:20, 15 February 2009 (UTC)


 * One thing that comes to mind is that it will take a lot of work especially when it comes to those who have mulipule ethnicites. It has been a month and no one has commented. I think that we should hold on to the thought until a consensus is placed in the Wikiproject page and the community (mainly the Boricua community) are informed in their talk pages and encouraged to participate. Tony the Marine (talk) 06:28, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Current list name
Hello, I couldnt help but ask why this list includes people descended from People that left Puerto Rico upto 50 or 60 years ago or even 20 years ago are included in this list and are called Puerto Ricans as if they are native-born on the island. I know its common to call yourself a Puerto Rican in th US even though they are 2nd or 3rd generation. Doesnt it just make this list too-long and couldnt it be more like this other U.S territory list.List of people from the United States Virgin Islands. If the American citizenship issue is the problem from this then call it like this list: List of people from Puerto Rico although redircted here..and List of Puerto Ricans (stateside) since Puerto Rican American isnt liked much. Someone from Puerto Rico is a Puerto Rican...and somone from the United States is an American..if this is not the case then why is Jennifer lopez called an American..well its because she is by birth and raised. Anyone with thoughts similar to this or otherwise. Isnt facts more important than what you feel as a person. 81.159.25.102 (talk) 03:26, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't agree. People of Puerto Rican descent are included in the list not only as explained in the introduction, but also because they have never been fully accepted in American society as "Americans" and have always been referred to as "Puerto Ricans" despite the fact that some have been born outside of Puerto Rico. Jennifer Lopez is an example of a person who considers herself as a Puerto Rican. The list is very specific in it's introduction and has been well managed by a group of us as is. The list clearly states in it's introduction the following: "This list of Puerto Ricans includes people who were born in Puerto Rico, people who are of Puerto Rican ancestry, and many long-term residents and/or immigrants who have made Puerto Rico their home, who are significantly notable for their life and/or work." Therefore, it is based on facts and not what we feel as a person.. Thank you Tony the Marine (talk) 04:40, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Hello..thankyou for the view..Although i understood the introduction..The fact that you said,  they have never been fully accepted in American society as "Americans" and have always been referred to as "Puerto Ricans" despite the fact that some have been born outside of Puerto Rico. This can be seen in many newly arrived groups to the United States...The Irish were hated upon when they arrived and are now Irish-Americans with Irish ancestry, but they were treated worse than most ethnic groups when they arrived as they only spoke the Irish language. An ancestral tie to a country isnt the same as a native-born and raised nationality (Nearly all Americans are from somewhere else). Even some from Puerto Rico have an issue with the Nuyoricans returning, so this isnt an issue solely in the US. see: The Nuyorican Dilema. Anyway, as of 2000 both the island and the people of Puerto Rican national heritage, since they dont all share the same ancestry are counted by the US seperatly in numbers from the Island. Why so, if are the same people??. In the article Puerto Ricans in the United States its says that 1,717,969 immigrated to the US...which leave more than double of about 4,120,205 Americans of PR national hertiage today. 81.159.25.102 (talk) 08:07, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't get me wrong, I fully understand where your coming from. It is true what you stated about the Irish, and the same would go for the Italian and German immigrants, who arrived in large numbers to the United States in the mid-1800s as a result of the Irish Potato Famine and industrial and political revolutions in Europe. Most of them were poor farmers who would never be able to return to their homeland because they could not afford to do so and because of the distance between both continents. Their American born children and descendants did not have any connection with Europe and completely adopted the ways and customs of their new homeland. These immigrants had one thing in common with their American counterparts and that is that they were considered as members of the White race. Puerto Ricans however, have both immigrated and migrated to the United States for over a hundred years and because the island is so close and they are not required to have passports, they travel (even stateside Puerto Ricans) frequently to and from the island and have been able to keep their customs, traditions and language alive. That is why you ask one them and they will tell you "I am Puerto Rican," not I am "Puerto Rican-American". An example is Freddie Prinze Jr. who was once asked why was he, a white man, playing the part of a Puerto Rican and he answered "because I am a Puerto Rican,". We also have anoter example in Wilfred Benitez, he was born in New York, yet everyone including himself identifies him as a "Puerto Rican". The case is that in many cities in the U.S. you will find a "Puerto Rican Day Parade" not a "Puerto Rican-American Day Parade".

Anyway getting back to the list. A consensus would have to be taken and I for one would object to breaking it up. Not only because Puerto Ricans, both those born there and those born in the U.S. of Puerto Rican parents or of Puerto Rican descent have always been considered simply as "Puerto Ricans" by the non-Puerto Rican population of the U.S., but because we as a people embrace the accomplishments of our own. That however is not the only reason of my opposition. Another reason is that this list has been established for years and is one of few lists in Wikipedia that has a management team that fights against vandalism, cleans up any entries and verifies the sources. It isn't easy and it is time consuming, yet we do it and I for one will not be willing to do it for a sub-list. Take care. Tony the Marine (talk) 23:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The general consensus is that people of Puerto Rican heritage are called Puerto Ricans. For example, the U.S census ethic definition for Puerto Rican is very straightforward, 1. I agree with Tony, this is one of the few list where sources are required and entries are closely monitor meeting the criteria for WP:BLP. --J.Mundo (talk) 00:24, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

List of famous puerto ricans
i see that actress zoe saldana is not listed in your famous puerto rican actors/actress, her father was dominican and her mother is puerto rican. ====renee==== —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ingr2009 (talk • contribs) 19:16, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If you are a registered user and follow the simple instructions on the header, you can post her name. Just remember to cite and provide a reliable verifiable source which would proof her Puerto Rican heritage. Tony the Marine (talk) 20:08, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I added her name to the list. Tony the Marine (talk) 07:38, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Some problems with this lists format
While i absolutely support and value the listing of notable people by nationality/ethnicity/origin, etc, i have some problems with this list. first, having text in the article which refers to how to add to the article, in my view, breaks the fourth wall (a theatrical reference) and makes it unencyclopedic in a self conscious manner. a person reading this list should not have to think about how it was created unless they become interested in the process on their own. not all people who use wikipedia write for wikipedia. i also dont like the last name/first name format. while i really like alphabetical lists in general, seeing peoples names reversed, again, makes it less encyclopedic to me. after all, the articles on the subjects themselves dont reverse the order. and the only reason to reverse it, as i see, is to force alphabetization on a list. since the article is not a database, but a text, no need for forcing order on it, since we create the order consciously and with our editing, not by using the Sort function in a database program. and finally, a list article should be as different as possible from the Category of the same or similar name and function. this list is pretty good, as it lists the reason for notability here, and some lists dont, but i always cringe when i see few or no redlinks or nonlinked names on a list like this. if a list is made up only of subjects for which articles are currently written, then its performing the same function as the Category, only in article form. i see this as unnecessary duplication of effort. i enjoy seeing redlinks, which says the list is clearly incomplete (a good thing if a list CANT be completed, as this one cannot). nonlinked names can also show thoughtfulness, such as "Luis Diaz is a nurse known for his work in the field of mental illness" where the article on mental illness mentions Mr. diaz briefly. he may not qualify for an article, but he is notable enough to mentioned somewhere in WP. So what do i want? i would like to hear other peoples thoughts on the instructions on adding new names being in the article itself. I would love to find a better way to address this. maybe there is a solution out there already. perhaps there is an admin who has good ideas on this. I would like to see peoples thoughts on the name order as well. and i would like to see a few nonlinked names (with links to articles they appear in) and redlinks, to show how the list is evolving. note that i am not asking for any big changes. i have briefly looked at some other lists of notable people from other countries, and i didnt see the 3 problems i have mentioned here, but i didnt look too deeply, so i am willing to stand corrected on my concerns. and since i am new to this article, and have not contributed to it yet, i will absolutely NOT MAKE ANY EDITS contrary to the current structure, unless there is a clear decision to change it. I realize that an article like this will have ongoing problems with people adding nonnotable names, and that this list seems to be very carefully patrolled. i dont own this article, or any article, and that as it stands, its a hard fought collection of knowledge that is useful right now without changes like i have pondered. I hope that in my criticism of this article i have not offended anyone, as that is not my intent. thanks for your time, sincerely, Mercurywoodrose (talk) 05:23, 25 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The list does include "redlinks" and we do encourage the addition of such as long as references citing the person's notability and connection to Puerto Rico are provided. It is a simple requirement. We have dealt with enough self-promotional additions of people who are not notable and it is no easy task to keep track of those. The current format of using the surnames first was decided upon by "consensus" and works for all of us involved in maintaining and organizing the list. We have not had any complaints and maybe it would be even a good idea for others too follow suit. As for myself there is no offense taken, however just because a person doesn't like the way the list is doesn't mean that it is wrong. The important thing here that the way that the list is organized is not against established Wikipedia policy and that the people who go through the trouble of maintaining the list are comfortable with the way it is. Thank you Tony the Marine (talk) 07:33, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There isn't really such a thing such as an fourth wall in Wikipedia. As a matter of fact, one of our latest featured lists, List of Puerto Rican boxing world champions, has a few of these notes. -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  22:03, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking the time to read my comments. after reading your comments, i am satisfied about the method of inclusion, and that there are redlinks, and how you have consensus and agreement with wp guidelines for lists. Thanks for helping me to understand the process of listmaking better. i know i am not ready to even try to regulate any lists, hard work for sure. A suggestion: i think the article might benefit with this tag which i found in the guidelines for lists at WikiProject Lists: {stand-alone list} (with one more bracket on each side of course-how do you quote taqs best without having the page tagged?). that way readers are notified about there being a procedure without the procedure being spelled out in the body of the article. by the way, i looked at the boxing article, and i didnt see any such "fourth wall" breaking, but i will read it again. man, to one day help create one of these complex articles would be great. im really a beginner at editing, but i think i understand the idea of it. practice is what i lack.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 02:39, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Another way of doing this would be adding a suggestion placed in comments  Mercurywoodrose (talk) 04:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * In the champions' list there is the following note: "This compendium uses the same parameters used by the Puerto Rico Boxing Commission to classify champions. Boxers that won a world championship in either a major or minor organization are included." While that may not be as straightforward as the one here, it is still the same principle. -  Ca ri bb e a  n ~ H. Q.  20:47, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Add Jimmy Sabater to List of Puerto Ricans, in composers, musicians and singers category
What I am trying to accomplish here is to add the name of Jimmy Sabater (now often referred to as Jimmy Sabater Sr., since he has a son of the same name who is attempting to follow in his footsteps as a musician and singer). I became a fan of Jimmy Sabater back in the 1960's here in New York, when I heard his singing on the radio, as a member of the Joe Cuba group. I am a chemist and an educator, currently employed at a university in New York; but I also had a 20-year career as a professional musician. During that time, I had the opportunity to perform with Jimmy Sabater on a number of occasions. He is internationally famous in the field of Latin-American music as a singer, percussionist, and composer. Today, I was surprised to find, while searching for the name of another musician on this page, that Jimmy's name did not appear. I would like to correct that omission.

There is a biographical entry here for Jimmy Sabater [], and a search of his name reveals fourteen internal links, eleven of which are actually relevant.

This is a link to an article about him at an external website:.

Thank you. Borodinmusic (talk) 04:10, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It is done! Tony the Marine (talk) 07:28, 2 June 2009 (UTC)