Talk:List of Sailor Moon episodes/Archive 1

Fandubs

 * Fandubs are not official. I know there's an English version of Sailor Stars floating around.  It's done by fans, and is sanctioned by neither Toei nor Takeuchi-sensei.  Stop re-adding the misinformation. Danny Lilithborne 00:52, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Protected
Why is the page protected?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.101.14.2 (talk • contribs).
 * Check the page history; it speaks for itself. Danny Lilithborne 00:57, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

"Exact translations"
For "exact translations", there's some pretty serious grammatical errors. I'll get to them shortly. MSJapan 00:12, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Theme Songs
Hey, I just wanted to say that I added the lyrics to the Moonlight Legend opening theme. I took the translation from several places around the web so if someone wants to edit any errors there may be that would be appreciated. Also, maybe the songs/lyrics should have their own page and all the songs can go on it? Just a thought. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.67.155.187 (talk • contribs).
 * I have removed the japanese lyrics, as they are probably copyrighted by the creator. See the song guidelines to learn more about this. I have left the english ones, but I do not believe it should stay. If it does, it needs some formatting. -- ReyBrujo 18:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Episode Summary
I started adding summaries for each episode, as I go along them. I will shortly add images, release dates and special remarks relating to each episode. If you feel like changing the main summary page to reflect any personnal view, don't. Please also remember that the reader might only want to know the episode's name and not it's plot, as for it might spoil their viewing. Episode listings shouldn't have their description. --Kromagg
 * If you don't plan on adding anything but that small summary, the individual pages do not meet the criteria for Centralized_discussion/Television_episodes: "Once there's enough independently verifiable information included about individual episodes, spin the information from episodes out into their own articles."
 * Spoilers DO NOT matter. We include spoilers in wikipedia all of the time: WP:SPOILER -- "This is an encyclopedia, which strives first to inform, spoilers or not. The article may also contain analyses and background detail not available—or at least, not obvious—in the work being critiqued. However, not all readers will immediately recognise this an an encyclopedia. A spoiler notice should be made prominent as a simple courtesy where this is the case."  We don't molly coddle people who don't like spoilers.  Secondly, Sailor Moon is over a decade old.
 * Images:Adding screenshots for the sake of illustrating an episode list is considered by many to go against wikipedia Fairuse image policy. It would be more prudent to add DVD/LD covers.
 * Please also read WP:OWN. --Kunzite 23:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I heavily suggest against inserting images in lists; see the discussion that arose at List of Lost episodes. To give you a quick idea, if you comment about an image, the image can be used per fair use criteria. If you add the image as a decorative option (like adding a screenshot of an episode in an episode list=, it is not covered by the current policy. -- ReyBrujo 00:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

We can surelly change the policy accordingly to reflect more realistic and dogmatic points of view. --Kromagg
 * Sure, you can try to do that at the Fair use talk page. But you should not disrupt Wikipedia to do it outside discussion terms. Quoting the guideline:
 * "If you wish to change an existing procedure or guideline... * do set up a discussion page and try to establish consensus * don't push the existing rule to its limits in an attempt to prove"
 * Creating lists with screenshots can be considered pushing the rules, especially when a discussion is currently in place. -- ReyBrujo 02:11, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Just thought you guys would like to know, the issue of List of Lost episodes screenshots is still under debate. WikiProject List of Television Episodes believes it's covered under fair use and is still encouraging people to use images for identification of episodes in lists.


 * Oh, and with the new Japanese episode list template, would you guys like a second episode number parameter for the English episode number? I'll see what I can come up with. Since for (no image), the ep number is on the left hand side, it make it hard to do something like what was done in List of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya episodes, where we used ProdCode for the alternative number. But I'm sure something can be thought up. -- Ned Scott 04:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * That is exactly what I wanted to prevent, disruption to make a point. -- ReyBrujo 04:33, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Excuse me? We became aware of the Lost image debate after such recommendations were made. In other words, these actions were independent of the Lost image debate. The Lost image debate is ridiculous and it's only a matter of time before the whole thing blows over. This isn't the first time that an image blockage was attempted by these same people, and in those situations the images came back. Meanwhile, all six List of episodes articles that are Featured lists contain fair use images (two were promoted during the Lost debate). Wikipedia can't come to a screeching halt because of one article.  Repeated request on the debate have been made to take the issue to actually update the policy page, to make it clear one way or the other.  If the discussion reaches there, it might be a different story, but for now it's the concern of one article out of many. Don't be scared away by strong words. -- Ned Scott 04:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Not adding images to a list isn't my definition of screeching halt. Also, FAC nominations are a bit strange, as they seemly are not a vote, but nevertheless if the list copies the format of another it is almost automatically promoted, see Fullmetal Alchemist as example. There is no explanation about why they become featured as in AFD when the administrator at least takes his time to explain why a decision has been taken when the discussion is divided. That is why I do not trust WP:FAC nor WP:GA. There are over 100 lists that are featured, and a good number may not be using FU images. I randomly picked three (List of Indian districts, Periodic table (large version) and List of spacewalks and moonwalks). I don't see what makes it so special for episodes list to have FU images that are being used with decorative purposes.


 * At least one FAC article (List of Virtual Boy games) may lose its Featured status due the image controversy. Note that an attorney has stated suggested that, unless the entries in the list add information to justify the inclusion of the screenshots, they are not Fair use. My guess is that the other episode lists may soon follow. Why to include this list to these discussions when we can continue working on it and seeing the development of the discussion until a long-term solution is reached? As I said, not including screenshots in the list isn't an screeching halt. It is just staying away from controversy until it is settled down. -- ReyBrujo 05:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Fair use aside, after having seen some more lists that also need a second episode number next to the main episode number, I think I'll see if some revisions can be made to Template:Japanese episode list (no image) or maybe new template for this type of setup. -- Ned Scott 07:34, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I've seen a few other lists that need two episode numbers side by site, so I added a parameter of, this should help formatting. -- Ned Scott 20:45, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, I agree with the above comments that if your summary of episodes is going to be so short, you should use the  parameter in this article rather than making a few hundred stub articles. -- Ned Scott 20:47, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Dub titles
Shouldn't the dub titles be less conspicuous (listed second, not bold) than the Japanese? This is of course the English Wikipedia, but that's covered by the title being translated. Surely the original version of something should be listed first, not hidden under its derivative. --Masamage 00:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Publisher
What company backed this series? Toei? --Masamage 00:47, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Answer: Yes. --Masamage 15:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Capitalization
The translated Japanese titles should be either all initial-capsed (a la book titles), or all lowercase (a la Wikipedia articles). Which way should we go? --Masamage 19:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I believe we should capitalize the first letter and keep all others in lowercase except proper nouns. This has been discussed in several places, like Talk:J-pop. -- ReyBrujo 04:08, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The second method is the accepted way to deal with romanized titles. MSJapan 13:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Awesome, thanks. I'll get to work. --Masamage 15:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, done. It broke the links to the episode articles, but we can fix their titles when we merge them with the dub summaries.
 * Some notes, which were in my edit summary but which I'll reproduce here. I used "Moonlight Knight" even though it's not the best translation, because the Mamoru Chiba does that. I added the 49e title, "Food Fetish." The 56j kanji was wrong--the same as the episode above it. So we need to find that. 115j had a really wonderful pun in its title, about Hotaru meaning 'firefly', so I tried to leave it intact. ('Cause otherwise, Hotaru's "tail light"? What?) --Masamage 16:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Umm. You just de-linked 50 episodes. Though, I was planning on putting them up for AfD one of these days.. Perhaps, it's time... --Kunzite 01:18, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah. ^^;;; Oops. I mentioned that in the second-to-last paragraph, there. We've been talking about what to do about those episode summaries on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Sailor Moon; no consensus quite yet, but if there are going to be episode summaries (terrifyingly, The Simpsons does it) it seems pretty agreed that they should be under the Japanese names, with a "dub changes" section. Other than the merging job...I really don't know about deleting. None of them are terrific quality, but someone obviously worked hard on them, so I sympathize. Another thing that seems mostly agreed is that we don't want to tackle that project quite yet, and we'd rather start with articles for each series/season, and expand those until they need to be split. So... Yup. I guess I could see it going either way; maybe bring it to vote at the WikiProject..? --Masamage 01:41, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

To vote on the future format of episode summaries, please visit Talk:Crybaby Usagi's Beautiful Transformation. Large changes are being planned! --Masamage 22:55, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Move proposal
I propose that this article be moved to Sailor Moon (anime) (name chosen via WP Anime and manga recommendations). Currently it's an episode list, which makes its name highly incongruous; I think it could be expanded to include information about the release of the anime, as well as its TV specials (like Ami-chan no Hatsukoi), which seems much more useful. Any thoughts? --Masamage 04:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * How about including that info on Sailor Moon and then moving the article name to List of Sailor Moon media? -- Ned Scott 07:11, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * For one thing, this isn't a list of media; it's a list of episodes and theme songs. If we tried to list all the music from the series it would take an entire separate article, there's so much. We do need more info about the anime, particularly its unique plotlines, art techniques, voice actors, alterations from the manga, who directed it, all that kind of detail. The Sailor Moon article is very long and already talks about the anime; we need a place to do more. --Masamage 16:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * A list of media does not have to include all songs from an anime.. and episodes are considered media. See List of Excel Saga media. If you want to expand the anime information, then you should do that on Sailor Moon. If the article is too big then reasonable article splits should take place. We shouldn't just start a second article as a "Page 2". You might want to check out the guidelines on WP:ANIME, as well as WP:FICTION, WP:WAF and Guide to writing better articles. -- Ned Scott 16:41, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * May I guess that you're not familiar with Sailor Moon? If you are, I apologize. But it comprises five anime series, a 52-act manga, over a dozen musicals, and a recent live-action series, not to mention video games, card games, image singles, and other spinoffs. There's no way on earth we're putting all that in the main article; just mentioning it all takes forever. Take a look at Oh My Goddess!, which has subpages at Oh My Goddess! (manga), Oh My Goddess! (TV), Oh My Goddess! (OVA), Oh My Goddess! The Movie and List of Oh My Goddess episodes, among other things. This is the series WikiProject Anime and manga uses as their example of a job well done, so that's what I think we'd better follow. I would totally be for having an episode list separate from the anime page, if that was what we needed to do, but I don't think it's necessary. (Especially since there's no Sailor Moon OVA.) --Masamage 18:05, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The "media and release information" article is actually a part of many anime series articles on wikipedia. It usually consists of very "listy" material that has been jettisoned from the main aricle because of size and prose concerns. Ned, who has helped to write the WP:ANIME guidelines points out one of those pages above.
 * That's acually not an example of a job well done. It's an example of how to disambiguate between various incarnations of a meta-series. In fact in many places, the OMG article series actually breaks several wikipedia guidelines and it has been difficult to clean up because of "ownership issues".  Excel Saga and Planetes are bona-fide examples of good articles.
 * List articles, according to the wikipedia size guidelines are sometimes allowed to break the standard legnth guidelines.
 * Finally, because of the new restrictions that deal with writing about fiction from an entriely in-universie perspective and keeping plot lines relatively short we may want to send people to related resources on Wikimoon. (Unfortunately, we cannot copy information from them and vice-versa, because of incompatible licenses.) --Kunzite 02:44, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm, in that case then I could see a split that would have articles just for the manga / anime(s), etc. As Kunzite mentioned above, OMG might not be the best example, but I am starting to see what you mean. Maybe we should move discussion to WP:SM and evaluate re-organization of all the Sailor Moon articles. -- Ned Scott 02:58, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Heh... Way ahead of you. It didn't get many replies, though. --Masamage 03:26, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Episode table
I don't think we should use this episode list format. It emphasizes the dub titles, which have nothing to do with the original titles--especially since many are omitted, combined, or have never been dubbed at all. It looks awful. --Masamage 23:45, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The exact look of the table is pretty flexible with the template. The main idea is to be able to use the parameters such as "air date" and "title" to make formatting changes easily as well as further article maintenance. We could even make a specific SM episode template with it's own look. -- Ned Scott 00:16, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Wow, that looks amazing. I had no idea it could be so dynamic; no wonder it's becoming the standard table format for these things. Thank you very much! I am much better educated now, and the list looks excellent. :) --Masamage 00:20, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, new move proposal.
I propose moving this article to the title Sailor Moon media information. This is in line with the standards set at WP:anime as well as the actual content of the article, so it shouldn't be quite so controversial. ^_^; --Masamage 19:49, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * If no one protests I will move forward with this Tuesday, October 10th. --Masamage 03:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * What about List of Sailor Moon media? -- Ned Scott 06:31, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Just as a note on Wikiquette: I would have given more than a day on this proposal for input, especially given the holiday weekend. Anyhow, the problem is that this article is not "SM media and release info".  It's an episode list and a section on the theme songs from each season.  There's nothing on actual releases of CDs, DVDs, videos, and LDs.  Frankly, I'd support a move, but not to the proposed title.  I'd reorganize the theme songs into their respective seasons and move this to "Sailor Moon Episode Guide". MSJapan 14:00, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, I technically gave three days, and nobody commented, so I figured nobody cared and followed up with (in my time zone) two more days with a deadline.
 * Frankly, I'd be happy with moving it anywhere. The current title is totally incongruous. --Masamage 16:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I see you did give more time. Somehow I didn't see the 5th, and only saw the 9th.  In any case, I'd say move it to the episode guide title I gave if no one else comments negatively, as it seems to be the most accurate description of the article as it stands now, and the article really can't be added to in any other way without losing focus. MSJapan 02:01, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds okay to me. ^^ But according to precedent, the new title ought to be List of Sailor Moon episodes. I think you're right that too much more than this makes the article unreasonably big. --Masamage 07:10, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

So, new proposal: Move this article to List of Sailor Moon episodes, since that's what it is. If no one objects, I will do this Saturday, October 14th. If someone does, we'll keep talking. :) --Masamage 07:10, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. -- Ned Scott 06:11, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds okay, but I don't want the music themes section to go! I'm still working on getting a proper sample of Moonlight Densetsu. - Malkinann 10:36, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It'll either stay put or move to its series subpage, but yeah, it won't vanish. ^^ Your theme song sample might even be good for the main Sailor Moon article, actually... --Masamage 18:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, today's the deadline. Due to lack of objection (and even approval from some who have objected against other moves), I'm going to go ahead and change this article's name now. --Masamage 19:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)