Talk:List of Scottish clans

Gaelic Names
Many of the clans listed here --and especially those hailing from the Highlands--- would have originally borne Gaelic names, e.g.
 * patronymics e.g. Mac Aoidh MacKay
 * toponymics e.g. Urchurdan (from Airchartdan) Urquhart
 * topographic e.g. Mac Mhuirich (Muiréab) Murray or Suithearlarach (Sutherland) Clan Sutherland
 * ethnonymic e.g. Uallas (derived from a Germanic word for "foreigner") Wallace
 * translations from English, French, Danish, Scots, or other foreign languages... Greumach (the Saxon word Gram, fierce) Clan Graham, Friseal (Fraser) (de la Frezelier)Fraser of Lovat

It would be indeed a worthy project to ascertain the other Gaelic names for all clans that possessed them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.17.84 (talk) 19:47, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * seems to me that the "Gaelic names" are far from clear; see your examples at the clan articles: Clan Wallace, Clan Graham, Clan Sutherland etc...So why have a section listing the Gaelic name as some kind of official name? This in my view opens a can of worms (the clan origins ect), which cannot for the vast majority of clans be defined. If a clan has a Gaelic name, and the references to back this name up, this may be listed, but I take issue with this taking a section, I think those clans who have good references to a Gaelic name may have an entry in the column "Blazon of crest & motto within crest badge; War cry and Clan badge" giving a listing thereto as: Gaelic name: Clan's Gaelic name. I would have no problems with a few clans having such entries (providing they were not wiki editer translations, but references to official third party translations, and references did not disagree as the official gealic name[have several versions]). Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 22:33, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * as to the recent addition of Clan Donald being Mac Dhòmnhuill this seems to indicate that the edits are and attempt to translate the modern clan names into Gaelic. Not sur of the point of this, why not french, old english, scots etc. I have seen this done on various internet sites, and in my view is very dubious. In order to translate one must be sure of the definition. Clan Donald has old ways of defining itself, the Clan Donald article mentions Clann Cholla and Siol Chuinn, and the acts of the Scottish parliament refers to Clan Donald as Clan Ian in 1587, perhaps a reference to the southern Donalds sometimes referred to as Clan Ian Mhoir. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 00:25, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed. If we keep things 'official' we should be ok. Like you pointed, some clans do have historical 'alternate' names sometimes used. These are commonly known and easily verifiable. But just Gaelicising the surname isn't the same thing. IMO, just Gaelicising 'Clan Macleod' to Clann Mhic Leòid, just for the sake of it, doesn't really accomplish much. If we do that for every clan that is going to add alot of content to an already bulky list. But the Macleods do have a historical alternate name Siol Thormoid which i think could be added without any problems.--Celtus (talk) 08:59, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

Pollock
There seems to be a small inconsistency with the Pollock motto and crest badge: One reference shows the crest badge with the motto AUDACTER ET STRENUE. The 2nd reference lists the motto as AUDACTER ET STRENUE (Boldly and readily). Do audaciter and audacter mean the same thing? Does strenue translate as readily or strongly? Whatever the answer, perhaps it could be included in the note section of the table. There is also the cite error that is the result of an edit of List of Scottish clans on 12 June 2009. 75.69.0.58 (talk) 07:31, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * List of Scottish clans shows (in the crest) the motto to be AUDACITER ET STRENUE, but lists it as AUDACTER ET STRENUE and translates it as "Boldly and strongly".
 * List of crest badges used by Scottish clan members	shows (in the crest) the motto to be AUDACITER ET STRENUE and lists it as AUDACITER ET STRENUE but translates it as "Boldly and readily".


 * It seems that Audacter et Strenue is the correct form. Seems to be the motto and crest of Pollok of Overpollock, from Renfrew, in 1672, see general armory p.812. As to the translations, Latin can be problematic as the meaning of words can be various. An interesting look at the Pollock motto can be found at this blog. Not a good reference as (it is a blog) but does set out the various meanings and shows how the interpretation can change, see also online-dictionary. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 10:33, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Good references to meaning:

I think the interpretation of Audacter as "strong" comes from references to the US 322D Cavalry regiment whos motto Audacter et Strenue is usualy translated into the more warior version: Strongly and boldly. See US Army heraldic crests. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 11:09, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Boldly and earnestly
 * Boldly and earnestly
 * Boldly and readily

Information update request from OTRS regarding Dundas
We received an e-mail to OTRS with someone concerned with the statement in this article ''David Dundas of Dundas has not been heard from in over 30 years. It remains uncertain if he is still alive.''

Here is the full text of the message:


 * "I wish to inform you about the 31st Clan Chief David Duncan Dundas. It

said he has not been heard about in 30 years. For the last eight years he has lived in Poole Dorset in England. He has been active in Clan Dundas. He married me- Constance Underwood Sanders of Cambridge, Ontario Canada at Knox's Galt Presbyterian Church in Cambridge on Oct. 15,2009 and will eventually move to Cambridge when immigration allows.. I wrote the book entitled /The Descendants of William and John Dundass /in  !981."

Please take this e-mail into consideration, and consider updating and order changing the disputed text in this article. I haven't looked into sources to back this up, but I imagine there might be a wedding announcement or something along those lines at the very least. -Andrew c [talk] 00:50, 3 November 2009 (UTC)


 * emails are not good reliable references. the information comes from The Highlander, the Magazine of Scottish heritage; April 2009; 2009 Directory; Published by Angus J. Ray Associates, Inc.; ISSN 0161-5378, USPS 579200). This information from the magazine would certainly have been taken from the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs. Tell your corespondent to ask The Dundas to contact the Standing Council at: The Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs, Hope Chambers, 52 Leith Walk. Edinburgh, EH6 5HW, Scotland. From there the mater can be corrected officialy. Yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 11:08, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Clan Hetherington
As for the alleged Clan Hetherington. Any officially recognized clan with a chief is listed on the website of the Standing Council of Scottish chiefs here: It is possibly for a clan to be an "Armigerous clan" if it has no chief but it still needs to be registered as an official clan with the Court of the Lord Lyon. I cannot find any reference to Hethrington being an Armigerous clan, and it is not in the Collins Scottish Clan and Family Encyclopedia. May I remind you again that any unsourced info can be removed from Wikipedia and that reliable sources should be used only.QuintusPetillius (talk) 18:12, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Morrison badge
I undid an edit stating that the Clan Morrison badge is driftweed rather than driftwood, as unsourced and contradicting the sourced statement in the article. But since driftweed is a fairly uncommon word, that‘s a plausible misreading; can anyone confirm that Innes of Learney indeed has “driftwood“? FWIW my old Scottish clans & their tartans (Anon., W. & A.K. Johnston, 1951) has “driftwood”, also providing sgòd cladaich for the Gaelic term.—Odysseus 1 4 7  9  00:40, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Bell crest
"Crest CORRECTION: William Bell of Blackethouse, who died about 1628, was undoubted Chief of the Surname and is believed to have used the principal coat of arms of the Family, viz. Azure, three bells, the crest, a hand holding a dagger, paleways proper, with the motto, "I beir the bel." " per a request for edit of this article by.  Dwpaul  Talk   17:39, 27 December 2013 (UTC):Well the current Bell listing is not very well sourced so go ahead and change.QuintusPetillius (talk) 10:43, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Armigerous Clans / Non-armigerous clans.
As I understand it there is no such thing as an 'armigerous clan'. Lord Lyon's website makes this point clear -

'There is a widespread misconception that a family or a clan can have a family or clan Coat of Arms. Many heraldic and clan web sites and other media suggest that a person has the right to use the family or clan Arms. This is completely incorrect.'

So much of this page should be altered to remove this idea.

I note in particular that the Clan Gunn has never had a Chief recognised by Lord Lyon so to state as this page does that it is an armigerous clan is totally incorrect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.166.228.205 (talk) 16:25, 8 June 2014 (UTC) Once I learn how to sign I will do it - this week.


 * This question should probably be raised at Talk:Armigerous clan (again—with luck it might get some response) rather than here. The notion seems to be that clans with vacant but formerly armigerous chiefships somehow hold the arms ‘in trust’, as de facto bodies corporate; this doesn’t imply that individual members can use the original arms, excepting in a belted-crest badge demonstrating allegiance, as is usual for clanspeople with a recognized chief. I note the archived Lyon Court webpage, “†he Search for Clan Chiefs”, referenced in the article but now apparently removed, doesn’t actually use the expression, and at any rate the policy it described seems to be under review. The only source of the term seems to be the association whose webpage is linked in the srticle.
 * The servers generate the signature from four tildes ~ typed at the end of a posting. If you register an account, you can customize it.—Odysseus 1 4 7  9  23:04, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Just added the following on the 'armigerous clan' page following the suggestion above -

As I understand Lord Lyon there is no such thing as an 'armigerous clan'.

From the Lyon web page - 'There is a widespread misconception that a family or a clan can have a family or clan Coat of Arms. Many heraldic and clan web sites and other media suggest that a person has the right to use the family or clan Arms. This is completely incorrect...What is permitted is for a member of a clan to use the clan crest. Usually what is referred to as the clan Coat of Arms is in fact the personal Arms of the chief of the clan which can only be used by the chief.' http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/216.181.html

He has also said "there is no such thing as a clan cost of arms" Lord Lyon information leaflet 10 http://www.scotarmigers.net/pdfs/info-leaflet-10.pdf accessed 23 January 2014.

So if Lord Lyon quite clearly states that Clans do not have 'coats of arms' by definition clans can not be armigerous. This, even more so, is true for the Clan Gunn as they have never had a chief recognised by Lord Lyon...

I suggest the idea of an 'armigerous clan' should be edited from this entry.

(AlastairJG (talk) 10:33, 9 June 2014 (UTC))

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question about clan crests artwork
I'd like to try to make crests for the remaining clans. The good soul who appears to have made all the ones used here appears to be long retired. Does anyone know which fonts he/she used? I'm hoping there is someone else here who happens to know for sure. Thanks! —Мандичка YO 😜 12:11, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

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Clan Sutherland
Chief: Elizabeth Millicent Sutherland, 24th Countess of Sutherland is listed as clan chief, but I went to her wikipedia page and she died in 2019, so wouldn't her son now be the clan chief? Since I'm not an expert I'm not changing anything in case I've misunderstood. Songflower (talk) 23:17, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

Merge from "Scottish clan tartans" section of "List of tartans"
Frankly, this article List of Scottish clans is doing a better job of handling clans with more than one tartan, and it is going to make the section List of tartans entirely redundant, because List of Scottish clans will eventually include all of those tartans. It would be better for List of tartans to use and then briefly summarize some notes about clan tartans. It's entirely normal for large-scope lists to branch out to narrower-topic sublists (and List of tartans is already doing this for various lists of district tartans). We also have the problem that this article and the other one sometimes contradict each other, a WP:CONTENTFORK (given the almost "fandom" of the old Vestiarium Scoticum fraud that I encountered at List of tartans, it verges on a WP:POVFORK. I don't think the List of Scottish clans should be using any VS tartans unless there is evidence at the official clan society website that the clan in question still uses that tartan. Some clan chiefs have been very particular about what their clan's recognised tartans are.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:05, 23 June 2023 (UTC)
 * 'Oppose They are not the same and there is not a one to one match. Complete different domains.   scope_creep Talk  16:05, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Followup discussion
Above, you wrote "They are not the same and there is not a one to one match. Complete different domains." I'm trying to figure out what you mean by that (in either statement). The "domains" are identical, or technically the one is a pure subset of the other: a list of clans with their tartans, plus in the one article some additional information, per clan, that is missing from the other list. There is (or certainly would be, after normalizing the two lists to include the same clans, as both of them have gaps) a one-to-one match between entries. I really don't understand any aspect of your objection. PS: After I overhaul the clans article to have better tabulation (separate column for tartans, with larger images), the pages' redundancy will be even more stark. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:37, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * No they are not. One is a historical article about a list of different group of scottish tribes. The other one is a article about different types of cloth. They are not the same type of information. They may have superficial similarties, because clans have tartan's (but some don't) but Scottish clans are not just Tartan and nobody would expect you to say that. They was several hundreds years of history of Scottish clans before tartan appeared.  My clan and tartan is on this article. If I was talking about my clan, I wouldn't be talking about tartan, good for the tourists, but not the several hundred years of history that goes with it. I wouldn't expect to come on here see some amagalamation when they are they fundamentally different lists as they are in different domains and historical periods. So they not same level.  This isn't a merge target.    scope_creep Talk  09:24, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * This seems like a specious argument to me, verging on a straw man. No one, least of all me, has argued on either article's talk page that "Scottish clans are just tartan". Of course "nobody would expect you to say that" because it doesn't make sense, and no one did say it. What the issue here is that  at List of tartans, without exception ever, is or soon will be reproduced (along with other clan information) at List of Scottish clans; the overlap is already over 95%. A natural consequence of this is that eventually the former will be a  soft-redirect to the latter, perhaps with a WP:SUMMARYSTYLE précis left behind in the former. The fact that a handful of clans have no tartan is irrelevant. The fact that clans are broader historical topics is also irrelevant. This list already includes non-tartan information that is suitable for a concise list. And this isn't a history article, it's a list article; detailed clan history goes in each clan's article for that clan and, as a general matter, in Scottish clan.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  14:25, 20 August 2023 (UTC)