Talk:List of Soul Reapers in Bleach/Archive 1

Deleting some articles
Should I delete articles about Chōjirō Sasakibe, Marechiyo Ōmaeda, Isane Kotetsu, Tetsuzaemon Iba, and Nanao Ise since we hardly know anything about them?
 * You can't delete articles without admin intervention. On a related note, there have been numerous discussions about this, notably at Talk:Characters in Bleach. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 22:05, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * And somebody save Wabisuke before it gets nuked. <_<; Either that, or get Izuru's article back. -Biokinetica 09:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

ok what the heck!? shuhei hisagi so needs his own article. He's just so pretty to look at! -dragonlover136 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dragonlover136 (talk • contribs) 03:52, August 30, 2007 (UTC)


 * That is quite possibly the best reason I have ever heard. ~SnapperTo 04:00, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Lol.-- Hana ichi  04:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I no! Isn't he pretty!? He needs to have more fun though, he's also fun to torture, there's just somethin' about those innocent ones! He's mine! Mine I tell you! Anyway, yes, yes he does! -CaaptinAsagi —Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptinAsagi (talk • contribs) 18:05, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Yamichka needs his owne artical too! -CaptinAsagi —Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptinAsagi (talk • contribs) 18:37, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

You must be out of your mind!
Why did you need to delete the article for "Shigekuni Yamamoto-Genryūsai" ? Ok for Lieutenant that did not had much appearence, but you must be you of your mind to delete him. 82.52.33.49 20:14, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Unohana and Komamura too? He is a damn vandal! Someone stop this non-sense! 85.36.241.193 20:20, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yamamoto has done nothing. Unohana has done nothing. Sajin... eh, I'm not quite sure about him. Please see Talk:List of Bleach characters. As an added note, their content was merged, not deleted. // Decaimiento Poético  18:41, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but just because said characters don't seem to be prominent figures in the series at the moment, it doesn't make them that less important compared to others. Especially since Old Man Yama is a key figure in that he's the one that started the Gotei 13 so many centuries ago. And now with the court of 46 being deceased, all of the decisions are coming from him right now. Without him, theres nothing but chaos among the court guards. I'd suggest putting him back up...Sessou 06:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Importance in the plot is irrelevant as far as we're concerned here. The issue is whether these articles are passing WP:FICT, and whether they are feasibly able to be merged. Sephiroth BCR  ( Converse ) 06:31, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, if anything; the First Squad Captain is an antagonist in the sense that he represents the authority figure who abuses his power by means of rules and regulations. He is constantly making bad decisions and unfair assumptions because he is so high strung on 'tradition'. For example, he immediately wants to get Rukia executed simply because she gave her powers to someone. Rukia was doing her job, and so it is unfair and jumpy to get someone killed for DOING HER JOB. Later, he then suddenly drops this which would go to show that he is a bad leader who can't even stick by what he says.

Another incident is with Orihime, where he denies Ichigo from going to save her, claiming they need everyone to help, whilst also claiming that Inoue is a traiter and must be killed. Well if they needed everyone to help, then how come we don't see any of the captains working to do something? If he really cared about defeating his opponents, then he would instruct all the captains to gang up on each villain individually. Instead, he clings onto an unnecessary 'honour' which depicts that people should ONLY fight one on one. The first squad captain is a lousy leader of Soul Society, and I wouldn't be surprised if the writers come up with a conspiracy that he actually killed the previous leader and is working for the hollows.


 * Rukia's speedy execution was ordered by the Chamber of 46, whom--at that point--had already been murdered. All those orders came from Aizen for the purpose of recovering the Hogyoku.  (The method he ultimately uses was a backup plan he found in Urahara's research records while pretending to be dead.)


 * As for the matter of ganging up on Arrancar...that's just stupid. This is a fictional story, after all.  It wouldn't be very interesting if the bad guys got killed off so easily.  -- Son Goharotto (talk) 22:20, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't care less about old man Yamamoto, actually in my opoinion he's an annoyoing old fool! I don't like him, Momo on the other hand plays a big role and needs her owne page! Ok, she's still in the hospital, big deal! She is very valuable, in fact, I think she'll be in the final battle aginst Aizan, Gin, and Tousin, after all, wat better plot twist than this "The admierer strikes down the person she admires most and ends it with the finishing blow" it shows resolve and the fact that she understands everything clearly and will sacrafice anything for her comrads, more importantly, it a "Harry Potter Ending" for those Potter fans, it's like something J.K. Rowling would do, the equivelent of letting Severus Snape give Voldamort the final blow. wouldn't that be great! Yes, I agree about the Captin Commander, in my mind he's replaced with Ichigo, (conversation "Fine! But Rukia has toi be a Captin too, so she's right under him 24/7, she's the working part of his brain!") and then Momo, Ringi, and Youraweichie become captins too! -CaptinAsagi —Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptinAsagi (talk • contribs) 17:54, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Image overuse.
Ummmm, there are some guys running around all over Wikipedia deleting images. I'd like to beet them to it for Bleach at least, however, and lower the number of images to only those important. In the end, that's the three captains, Maki, and Ranao. That said, we shouldn't give an image to every merged lietenant, only the ones who play as big a role as the minor captains (Izuru and Momo, for example). Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 15:57, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * There is no image overuse problem, just some people who can't read their own policies and realize that the raw number of images on a page has nothing at all to do with whether they are being used properly. --tjstrf talk 16:35, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * There's actually a policy about limiting the number of fair-use images in a single article, though being new I can't remember the link to it. And do you really want one of them to come here and basically go "No Images! My word is Law!!!", which in the end leaves us with no images instead of some? Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 19:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * True, but Shuuhei deserves his pic, due to being a secondary character which has played a role more significant to others. I'll try to find a pic with Shunsui and Nanao, and Iba with Komamura, that way we limit the two pics into one, I'll add back neccesary ones.-- Hana ichi  09:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I remember that ending, don't know which, that was focused on a different division every time. The close scene always had the captain and the lieutenant together. If someone have those images... or we could just add a group image of the captains and one of the lieutenants, both of them are kinda easy to find. - Access Timeco 21:01, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The ending your talking about should the be third(?), Hōkiboshi, ranging form episodes 26-38. // Decaimiento Poético  21:52, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Tjstrf. There is no image overuse problem as far as I can see it. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 09:48, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * He must be referencing to some concerns for the EVA articles which were discussed some. Taking in part there as well we focused on deleting images that were just multiple depictions of the same subject matter or didn't need to be used at all. As far as Bleach is concerned, no problems on this matter have arisen so it's safe to assume we're doing alright. True enough there are some people out there deleting images off the bat in strict accordance to WP, yet don't address the editors for correction. As far as the Pairing-Pictures are concerned I could get ones for some of the Squads. It'll lessen clutter and be more aethestically pleasing I'd say.Fox816 04:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I placed in most of the Squads. However, not all of the endings will do. The ending to Squad 8 and 3 aren't acceptable and 11 has too many people aside the top several seats. Additionally, the picture for Squad 5 was far better than the ending one.
 * Division 3 is the only one I can't get a decent screen for. There was not a single usable image in the 3rd Ending of them both. It'll most likely have to come from one of the episodes. The ones for Squad 5 and 8 were from the 3rd Ending and usable unlike Squad 3.Fox816 04:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Image Cutdown
I uploaded group images to cut down on non-free...but looking at the article now, it seems very dull with just the two at top and bottom. Still needs further editing. Feel free to revert back if you want. It's a love-hate edit. Cuts down on non-free but...takes away the appeal. Fox816 04:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It works for me, though could maybe go with a slightly bigger thumb (on some other articles with group shots, we've been doing 250 pixel width). The captions should also list who is in the image, in order from left to right or right to left. AnmaFinotera 04:31, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately a caption listing ALL 13 wouldn't work. The caption would be far too long and inappropriate for the image which is why I listed them all on the image summary instead. Feel free to work with the thumb size and edit info. I didn't want to just slap the image into one of the Division spaces and an intro was needed. Though the intro itself needs work to shorten and arrange. I can't do it now unfortunately. The image instances of the separate divisions I haven't speedy tagged yet just in case. I'll do that tomorrow once some more responses about the change come in. Like I said earlier, the idea is good but it looks dull and bland when put in motion. Fox816 04:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Bleh, I don't really like the layout. Its very unwikipedia lol.
 * Pro


 * 1) No overuse of image so no nagging
 * Con


 * 1) Looks dull
 * 2) People reading the article cannot must refer back to image several times.
 * 3) At some instances, the characters look small and not visible.

I shall find a group image of several shinigami divisions, example being Yumichika, Ikkaku, Maki and Yachiru together for a better fit.-- Hana ichi  10:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Page organization
Somebody organized this page in a very strange way, inserting a weird table of contents, etc. The structure is completely unlike Wikipedia, it's non-intuitive and should be reverted to the standard. Also each character shouldn't have his own section. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 09:49, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Everything is jumbled up, I don't understand anything at all in this new layout, plus the division thing where the seated shinigami are is totally unreadble for some reason. It should really be classified under divisions, like the last one. And the current group pictures can't exactly depict some characters, Jushiro for instance, whose face is like not showing lol. I see no image overuse etiher.-- Hana ichi  09:53, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I have reverted the changes for now. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 09:59, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Hanaichi, for christ sake, don't be so exaggerated! If you REALLY can't understand something so simple, maybe is your own limitations, not a problem of organization (but I'm sure you could understand all and is just overreacting).
 * Yhnockey: I find the common organization very scrambled, like lots of information were put on a little space. For example, the character name has a bigger left margin than his description o.O But well, it is just for this kind of reason. The "lost information" that you mentioned were almost entirely "not-encyclopedian" (date of birth, height, weight...), so I deleted them myself after I changed the organization. - Access Timeco 12:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I dislike the current structure (as well as the fact that it is used in most Bleach articles) for the sole reason that it makes linking to specific subjects impossible. Instead, the root header is used as an anchor that must then be sifted through when you want to read about or edit a specific topic. I don't think categorizing characters by rank was the best idea for this article, but the addition of individual headers is a much better idea than what is currently present. ~SnapperTo 17:26, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * My bad, but its true though. Although you have a point, "lost information" was kinda difficult to squeeze in.-- Hana ichi  01:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

The Izuru Kira case
There is now an edit war going on mostly between Artist Formerly Known As Whocares and myself over whether Izuru Kira's article should stay. My main argument is that on Wikipedia, the burden of convincing lies with the person wishing to make the change, therefore it is AFKAS's job to attain consensus to merge, not the rest of the editors' job to prove why the article should stay.

However, I will still point out why the article should stay. Kira is an important character for the following reasons:
 * He has had more appearances than most characters, maybe more than some characters whose pages are definite keeps, like Kenpachi Zaraki.
 * His history and background have been explored, which is not true for most minor characters. We also know fairly well his characteristics and other properties.
 * We know the name and function of his zanpakutō (we don't know this for sure even for some arguably more important characters, like Matsumoto - there is no canonical proof that her zanpakutō does what it does in the anime).
 * He has played an important role in the anime-only Bount arc, which for the purposes of Wikipedia should be considered just as important as other arcs, because Wikipedia isn't a manga fanbase, but an encyclopedia.
 * He appears in several omakes, humor pages and color spreads.
 * All of the above are more than enough to make a page larger than a regular stub, unlike AFKAS claims (in fact, the current article is not a stub). However, even if AFKAS is right, there is no requirement on Wikipedia to delete all articles which have no potentials to become non-stubs. Instead, the stub status is removed if the subject is notable but there's no ability to expand. See for example Noblesse (cigarette).

-- Ynhockey (Talk) 10:13, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Well thats true, but Artists' main point is also true," Kira will never go past stub". The article will become a stub however, if the summary is removed or narrowed down though. So I vote for a cleanup on his page, and then decide to see whether its better to merge it or keep it.-- Hana ichi  10:30, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Even without the entire Synopsis section, the article is far from a stub. Perhaps we need to give examples of real stubs, such as for instance Central African Empire. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 11:05, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I see your point...due to other editors having a personal life and cannot respond swiftly, it is understandable though, that what Artist did was being bold.-- Hana ichi  11:23, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes! Thank you! I've been wondering if this editing was gonna stop. Kira does deserve his own article. Should we just add references and citations where they are needed?RedEyesMetal 11:58, 8 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I actually agree with merging Kira's article. Maybe he appeared a lot, but his appearances were barely relevant to the main story. Most of the information we have about him can be reduced to a pair of paragraphs. His participation on the Bount arc can be reduced to a few lines. He appeared a lot, that's true, but he didn't received more "revelant information" than Hisagi (except for the zanpakutou thing, but, as I said, this can be explained in three of four lines). The only way to keep a medium size article for him is going to describe every minor thing he did, what isn't a good thing (and is what we see in his article now) :/ the size of the article doesn't make it relevant: Szayel Aporro's is bigger than Kira's, but we all know that, until now, Szayel Aporro is nothing more than "the guy fighting Uryuu and Renji" to the main story.
 * If we want to discuss a lieutenant that deserves an own article, I think we should be talking about Hinamori. She was explored much more than Kira, even appearing less... but even Hinamori I don't think deserves an article yet. So I don't disagree with any merge so far (actually, I think we should merge at least 3 more characters: Nnoitra, Szayel Aporro - yeah, they are fighting now, but how a fight will make them relevant? - and Isshin - who will probably have a major role on the future... but this is on the future! Not now. It is like create an article to myself because, on the future, I can have some worldwide revelance - :/) - Access Timeco 13:13, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? Kira's character is explored as deeply as Hinamori. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 03:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Until we know which information about them is significant and which isn't, merging Nnoitra and Szayel is rather impractical (all the info is verified, and we can evaluate which parts of it are trivial once we're past that part of the story). Isshin's case is a similarly difficult one: we can't really put him in the main list, nor in the shinigami list, so for the best presentation he needs to stay on his own page.

Now, on a more important note, would those of you who are merging the pages please make sure that the end result is something that you can actually read without being horribly confused? If the lists aren't informative and legible, then you really haven't done a service to anyone but a few policy wonks by merging the characters, and are hurting the readers (who happen to be the people that we're supposed to be writing all this stuff for).

Incidentally, one idea I've been toying with recently that could make the long synopsis sections unnecessary, while still keeping their information, would be creating articles on the individual volumes of Bleach. Asserting notability would be easy as breathing, plus, for the volumes released in English at least, there exist easily obtainable critical reviews and the like. Further, in the long term (as in, 2012 when the English editions finally finish being translated) it would let us give a much more accurate reflection of Bleach's reception than just the sales figures and stuff that we've given in the main article (a review of one DVD/book of the series wouldn't necessarily match that of the series as a whole, so it's not ideal to use it in the main series article). Also, even if the anti-in universe article crunch continued, since the volume pages would be on an out of universe topic, they couldn't be deleted for it. --tjstrf talk 03:23, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I have two reasons for a merge: 1) Won't get past stub at this point. 2) Doesn't satisfy WP:FICT, as he is not a major character and has no out-of-universe information. Also, I don't really think he plays an "important role" in the Bount arc. Important would be on level with the main characters, and in that arc the only one I really feel is important in that definition is Mayuri, as without him everything would be different. Jin is an exception, as he is the main villian of that arc and thus is unarguably important. Oh, and, ummm, that would be a bad idea, tjstrf, as they would be so large in plot they would basically be no more than the former Plot of Naruto and Plot of Naruto:Shippuden pages: plot summary articles. With Kira or Momo at least you can have personality and backround, but volumes would be ISBNs, a picture, and then large plot. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 17:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, they wouldn't be a bad idea. List of Bleach chapters would then become a directory page for the chapters, and the volumes can have sales figures, reception information, and basically all the out-of-universe information needed to satisfy WP:N. Artist, the difference between these and those two aforementioned articles are that the volumes would have real-world information presented, and thus be suitable for keeping. Anyhow, I endorse this proposal. Gogogogo. Sephiroth BCR  ( Converse ) 06:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Individual manga volumes are lacking in reviews; the first volume tends to be a staple for most websites, maybe 2-3 too, and a few of the volumes that have come out in the last few months. For everything in between (in Bleach's case volumes 4-16) there isn't much to be found. I imagine sales figures are even more difficult to stumble across, but perhaps there's a site focused around such statistics I'm unaware of. ~SnapperTo 22:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * icv2 does English language graphic novel rankings. As for reviews, I've found quite a few. If you check the manga FAs and GAs, there are lots of sites that do reviews, so it's just a matter of checking them all until you find the right one. AnimeonDVD alone has reviews all the way up through volume 12. There are certainly enough out there to prove that there's at least potential for expansion with critical reception info for the rest. (Also notice WP:BK criteria number 3.) --tjstrf talk 22:23, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

He should have his owne artical, end of story, although so should Momo and Yamichka, they play the same size role as he dose! (And maybe Suishi)but indeed, keep it as it's owne artical! -CaptinAsagi--CaptinAsagi (talk) 01:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptinAsagi (talk • contribs) 18:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

senna
the last sentence in her section is a bit odd. i saw the scene after the credits, and ill admit the girl does look like senna but it doesnt say that it is her or that she goes to ichigo's school. now maybe there was a movie companion or dvd extra that says she did, but unless someone can produce it im gonna delete this sentence in a few days —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gailim (talk • contribs) 03:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
 * it is implied to be Senna but the part about the school does seem odd. (24.205.190.225 00:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC))

Easily explainable! It's like in Inuyasha with the present Hojo and the one in the fudal era, in other words, she was reincarnated and is living the averge life -CaptinAsagi —Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptinAsagi (talk • contribs) 18:44, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Minazuki
Old version: Retsu Unohana's zanpakutō is Minazuki (肉雫唼). The term has no coherent translation as a whole. The first two characters in its name, mina (肉雫) mean "meat/flesh droplets." The last character, tsuki (唼), is an obscure character meaning the sound or appearance of birds feeding, according to the Dai Kan-Wa jiten. The last character is actually no longer recognized by Japan's Ministry of Education. In context, the most logical interpretation of the name would be "flesheater" or "fleshdrinker," which fits with its ability to heal people by eating them. Another explanation is that the name is a homonym made-up by the author: minazuki (水無月) is the traditional Japanese word for the sixth lunar month. Minazuki (with different kanji) is also a Japanese snack.

The current version: lit: Purify the Flesh

WT??!?!? which is correct?--Marhawkman 04:43, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

New page
I suggest we remove some pressure from this article by creating one for the captains. That way we can list current captains, former captains (Urahara and the Aizen crew), and go more in depth about them while significantly decreasing the length of this article. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:13, 21 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Personally, I think each squad should have it's own page, where it can go into depth about it's history, and also hold places for captains and lieutenants who don't have their own pages yet. After all, Bleach is still going strong and I expect much more information about the squads to come.  There have been only three squads to receive a label, but I have a feeling every squad has a unique purpose.  Tysis 17:48, 3 November 2007 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.157.40.215 (talk)


 * What worries me is that if each division has its own page, there is sparse information that can be used. For example, 1st division has no backstory or other division members. Granted, 11th division otherwise has loads. I suggest we keep the page as it is, its not that long and we could probably add small synopsis of what each character does and some trivial information. -- Hana ichi  07:24, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it could be done better by taking a mid-road approach. Split out the ones seen most often and leave the rest as-is.--Marhawkman (talk) 13:57, 16 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I think one page for each squad is a good idea. You can generally tell that 1st squad is in charge of Gotei 13. You can go more in-depth for the captains and lieutenants.


 * Yamamoto started the Shinigami school.
 * Soi-Fon's past.
 * Gin Ichimaru's betrayal
 * Retsu Unohana and Isane Kotetsu's journey to Hueco Mundo.
 * Aizen's betaryal.
 * Byakuya's past.
 * Komamura's past with Tousen.
 * Kyoraku's place in the Shinigami academy.
 * Tousen's betrayal.
 * Kenpachi's fights and past.
 * Jushiro Ukitake's place in the Shinigami academy.
 * and so on that we might not be able to include now in the article.Archer of destiny (talk) 05:04, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Rantao
Didnt she describe herself as the former captain of the 12th division? she was the leader of it before Urahara since shes considerably aged and we know who Uraharas direct sucessor was. --82.153.26.230 15:10, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't consider anything "Bout arc" related offical canon it's more like alternate universes that the DBZ movies take place and I doubt Kubo tite officially considers the main bleach story the anime but dose with the manga which he personally dose art and story-67.180.225.161 02:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

However the Bounto arc is integrated into all the articles as canon, it either is or isnt completley, you cant pick and choose 83.104.138.141 05:20, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * She did not say any such thing as being former captain of the 12th division. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 09:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * She described herself as head of the research team on the Bounts or something like that. For all we know, Kisuke was above her. Of course, taking the Bount arc to be not the work of Kubo, and some script writer, Ran'Tao doesn't even exist in Kubo's timeline. -- Hana ichi  10:19, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Rantao did describe herself as part of a research team, the Bounts. This is just a leader of one specific area. Urahara was the captain of all the division.  σмgн gσмg  22:20, 4 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes in the anime Yoruichi tell Ichigo that Urahara Kisuke was not only the first Captain of the 12th division, but that he also founded it. It's one of the episodes where Ichigo was training for his Bankai. 68.48.57.75 (talk) 10:05, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

ur a fucking retard <_< WATCH/READ THE TBTP ARC! Kisuke didnt invent the 12th division or whatever plus thre was a chick that preceded him as a captain that was the only person Hiyori was nice to read the damn manga <_<--70.190.218.221 (talk) 23:16, 22 August 2009 (UTC)