Talk:List of South-East European Jews

[Untitled]
Alexander Beliavsky was born and raised in Lviv, Ukraine. He moved in Slovenia in late '90s.
 * True. However, he is now a Slovenian citizen and plays chess for Slovenia, so it is appropriate to list him here. (Regarding his Jewishness, he is listed at the Russian Jewish Encyclopedia. However, this site does not differentiate between people of full and part Jewish ancestry, and contains the occasional error. Hence he is currently marked unconfirmed.) Juko 13:42, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ivan Shishman's father was not Jewish. There is talk that his mother, Sarah, may have been but that is highly speculative. I am also close to 100% sure that Pancho Vladigerov was not of Jewish descent. I will provide evidence soon.

what's South Park's Kyle gotta do with Serbia?

X-Americans
Per standards for X-American lists, people of first-generation American birth are categorized on X-Americans list, not by their ethnic background. Note that Jennifer Aniston's father was Greek-born, we don't categorize her on List of Greeks. 65.10.45.212 16:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Please provide a link to the relevant Wikipedia policy.--20.138.246.89 16:02, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * WikiProject Ethnic groups/Rules for lists of X-Americans. It is an impossibility to merge X-American lists with their European counterparts as you are claiming. 65.10.45.212 16:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not a policy; it's a discussion. Further, the position you advance is not mentioned.--20.138.246.89 16:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * We do not categorize people based on their ancestry when they are American-born. It is a very simple policy that has been held up on nearly every other list. Do you suggest the merging of List of German Americans with list of Germans? If not, why not? If you wish, we can consult a user who has worked on X-American lists, and they'll tell you the same thing I am. Shall we? 65.10.45.212 16:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Please provide a link to the relevant Wikipedia policy. The opinion of one editor does not make Wikipedia policy.--20.138.246.89 16:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Not all wikipedian standards are enumerated. Link me to a policy that says we can add people to a list based solely on their great grandparent's ancestry. They are standards that arise from discussion. If you wish, we will bring several editors to help clear up this mess. Also note that you have broken the three-revert-rule on this page. But I will not bother to report it because that is simply spiteful. 65.10.45.212 16:56, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

By all means delete everyone on the list with only a Jewish great-grandparent, and bring as many editors as you like. And 3RR doesn't apply in this case, as I am fixing deliberate attempts to damage the page (and of course you made the fourth edit first).--20.138.246.89 17:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * This discussion isn't about who's Jewish, its about who counts as an X-American. Not that it matters, but you clearly made four reverts to my three on this page, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. 65.10.45.212 17:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

This isn't a list of X-Americans, it's the List of South-East European Jews, so who counts as an X-American is irrelevant. --20.138.246.89 17:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Yet you keep re-adding many X-Americans to this list. How about we get a third opinion and form a deal? If the third opinion states that we can't be going around adding X-Americans to European country lists, you agree to allow the removal of them. If the third opinion states that it is fine to list people based on their ethnic origins and suggests we do away with X-American lists, I'll agree to leave them on here. Ok? A quick end. 65.10.45.212 17:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

No, there is no reason why someone cannot be on two lists. Would anyone argue that someone born and educated in Greece but who spent most of his or her life in America was not both Greek and Greek-American? I'm quite happy to ask some of the people editing List of Czech Jews for an opinion.--20.138.246.89 17:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Also you missed the point. People born in Greece are a whole different story. I only removed American-borns. 65.10.45.212 17:23, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * If you agree, I will list this on Third Opinion. Sound alright? 65.10.45.212 17:23, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I am happy for you to put it on that page if you put the options fairly and refer to all the lists in dispute.--20.138.246.89 17:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You can edit it if you feel its unfair, but I wouldn't do that. 65.10.45.212 17:26, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok its listed. See if its ok. 65.10.45.212 17:32, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I have to go. You can edit what your position is but preferably leave mine alone. I'll be back later today. 65.10.45.212 17:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment from Third Party
Coming from WP:3O, I have the following comment: Policies and guidelines provides an overview on how WP works. They do not (with some exceptions) detail exactly what should and should not be included or excluded. Rather, editors must come to an agreement on what is relevant. In this case, if there's consensus, or even a supermajority, among editors for WikiProject Ethnic groups/Rules for lists of X-Americans, that may be applicable here.

However, more important is WP:VERIFY and WP:NPOV. In the case of Aniston (just an example), if she's normally referred to as an American, that's what she is (even if you could find one or two sources saying she's Greek), unless she refers to herself as Greek. -- Steve Hart 02:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Seems eminently sensible. So there's no reason to have mass-removals of people just because they are also on other lists.  Obviously, if anyone queries any specific names on the list, they can flag them    in the usual way.--20.138.246.89 09:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not uncommon for people to be mentioned more than once or be on several lists in WP. However, you should avoid categorizing a person as American in one article while the same person is categorized as Greek (to use the Aniston example) in a different article. You need consistency. In a "normal" article this kind of a disagreement can easily be solved by first mentioning the dominant view (that Aniston is an American), and then add that she has Greek ancestors or that many in Greece regards her as Greek, see WP:NPOV.
 * Unfortunately, this solution doesn't work for lists where there's only room for one viewpoint (the dominant one). Thus, Aniston could be placed on "List of Americans", "List of Greek-Americans" (possibly) or "List of famous people with Greek ancestors", but not on "List of Greeks", provided that the dominant view is that she's an America (which appears to me to be the case). Hope this helps. -- Steve Hart 15:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Steve. Using your Aniston example, I drew parallels to all the removed names:


 * Alan Arkin, actor (Greek descent)

The dominant view is that this person is American (born in America, raised in America). Accordingly, he has Greek ancestors, just like any other American has X ancestors. Thus, he could possibly be put on List of Greek Americans if the ancestry is recent enough for him to consider himself Greek-American. Aniston has Greek desent too but we don't put her on a list of Greeks either.
 * Hank Azaria, actor (Greek grandparents)

His grandparents are from Greece, but the dominant view is this person is an American actor/comedian, born and raised in America, 2nd generation. He may barely qualify for List of Greek Americans, but a full-blown list of Greeks? Aniston has closer ties to Greece and she is seen as more American too. As per above, we wouldn't put her on a list of Greeks, so Azaria shouldn't either.


 * Gabrielle Carteris, tv actress (Greek parents)

Apparently this American actresses parents were Greek (born in Greece? We don't know.) Aniston's father was born in Greece. The dominant view is that she is American (born here, raised here) so at best she is a Greek American, like Aniston.


 * Diane von Fürstenberg, fashion designer (Greek mother)

This person only has one Greek parent. They were born in Belgium and later moved to America. The dominant view appears to be that she is an American, of mixed ancestry, like any America. She may pass of as Belgian given she was born there. Her mother was born in Greece. Aniston's father was born in Greece. Yet as we don't put Aniston, we would't but Furstenberg.


 * Edgar Moren, sociologist (Greek Jewish parents who migrated to France)

can't find much of any information on this person to begin with.


 * Jamie-Lynn Sigler, actress (Greek father)

Sigler has a Greek father (actually mixed Greek/Romanian father). Aniston has a Greek father. Both were born and raised in USA. Both may identify as Greek-Americans, but neither would go on a full list of Greeks.
 * Nicholas Sarkozy

This politicial is seen almost ubiquitously as French despite Hungarian and Greek ancestry. He was born in France, raised in France to a Hungarian father and mother of mixed French-Greek(Jewish) ancestry. Simirlarly, Aniston has rather close Greek ancestry and she was born and raised in the USA. We wouldn't put her on a list of Greeks, so why put Sarkozy (especially considering such distant ancestry)? He could perhaps qualify for the category Category:Greek-French people
 * Edward Zander, CEO of Motorola (Greek mother)

Zander had a Greek mother. Aniston had a Greek father. Both were born and raised in America. As we would not add Aniston to a list of greeks, we would equivalently not add Zander. Greek-Americans, possibly yes.


 * Silvio Santos

Brazilian is much like "American". It is considered a nationality as nobody is ethnically Brazilian. Sivlio Santos has a Greek parent (and a Turkish one). Aniston has a Greek parent. Santos was born and raised in Brazil. Aniston was born and raised in US. WE don't put Aniston on a list of Greeks. We wouldn't put Santos. He probably qualifies as Category:Greek-Brazilians

Hopefully now, without further objections, we can see why each was removed and most were moved to List of Greek Americans. 65.10.36.51 21:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Sampras
Despite the source saying he's a Greek Jew, Sampras explains his family's background in great detail here: http://www.tennisserver.com/netgame/netgame_10_2_96.html. Pete Sampras was born in the United States. 141.213.212.42 05:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * And in that reference he describes himself as Greek and Jewish. "Sampras: I'm 75 percent Greek, 25 percent Jewish. My Dad's Jewish. My Mom was born and raised in Greece; she's 100 percent Greek. My Dad's mother was Jewish, but his father is Greek. That's where we got the Sampras name. A Greek Jew."  What the third opinion above said was "In the case of Aniston (just an example), if she's normally referred to as an American, that's what she is (even if you could find one or two sources saying she's Greek), unless she refers to herself as Greek."  Sampras passes that test.--20.138.246.89 13:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
 * So all American celebrities who mention their family's ancestry should be put on lists of those nationalities? There's a Vanessa Carleton quote on List of Russian-Americans where she's says she's half-Russian. Should she be on List of Russians then? 141.213.212.42 17:38, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

This is the third opinion that you requested, and you were happy with it.--20.138.246.89 10:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It must be nice to think only one person has noticed your streak of contradictory edits. Wait, didn't I provide the third opinion too? And make this list?? Wouldn't that make it null and void? I admit, this a good method by which to avoid answering questions. Your digression to misconstrued personal diatribe proves to me there's honestly no hope of trying to find a consensus with you on the talk page before reverting. Likely, this will be the type of answers I get from now on. Since when is the "dominant view" that Pete Sampras is Greek and not American? Anybody when asked about their background is going to say "I'm [part] [half] [50%] [1/2] [25%] [1/4] Whatever." That has nothing to do with the opinion provided. You can find just about anything saying someone is something. . This doesn't make it the dominant view. 141.213.212.42 12:16, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. The compromise was that we would get a Third Opinion. This opinion was that an American was an American unless they referred to themselves as Greek. Where does "dominant view" come in? Are you now repudiating the Third Opinion? --20.138.246.89 13:44, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


 * If you would have read the third opinion carefully, maybe then you would understand it still applies to this case, and judging from your contact with the giver, you'll see he'll mention the same thing. It is not the dominant view that Pete Sampras is Greek. Because somebody asked him his ancestry and he responded "Greek," doesn't qualify him for this list than any other American celebrity who was asked that question.


 * "In the case of Aniston (just an example), if she's normally referred to as an American, that's what she is (even if you could find one or two sources saying she's Greek), unless she refers to herself as Greek." The third opinion basically negates your first source since "even if you ould find one or two sources saying he/she's Greek" referes to he page that calls Sampars a Greek Jew as opposed to an American. In the other source, Sampras was asked what his background was. Clearly, he's going to say "I'm _____" in response to that question. That doesn't mean that Sampras refers to himself as Greek more often than American (or Greek-American), because he was asked of his BACKGROUND; he's not going to respond "I'm American" to that question. I'm beginning to doubt you even read the third opinion. 141.213.210.40 03:06, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Rather than having you guess what Mr Hart meant, let's wait and see what he says.--20.138.246.89 16:00, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Sourcing check for WP:FACT
I was asked by an anonymous editor to check into the referenced information regarding Pete Sampras. I will make my response here in case the IP is a dynamic one. (By the way, perhaps both of you should register for accounts, having a stable talk page makes communication much easier!) It appears the source of Sampras' quote is from a 1996 interview, which can be found here. In it, Sampras does state that he is 25% Jewish, from his father's side. However, he declines to identify himself as a Jew here, and there seems to be a significant consensus among the Jewish community that only matrilineal Jewish ancestry "counts" toward being Jewish. Finally, the source cited, "standwithus", is of questionable reliability-it is pretty evidently partisan, and I see little evidence of peer review or editorial control. As the information regards a living person, I have removed it per WP:BLP, and would ask that it not be added again unless a better source can be found showing that Sampras has been identified as Jewish by a more reliable source, or has unequivocally self-identified as such. (He certainly would fit on, for example, a "List of people with Jewish ancestry", if such were to exist.) Seraphimblade 01:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Just one point. I don't believe that there is a "significant consensus among the Jewish community that only matrilineal Jewish ancestry "counts" toward being Jewish." To the contrary, I believe it is the offical policy of the Reform movement (which I believe is greater in number in the US than the Orthodox movement), that patrilinal Jewish ancestry counts. Cheers. --Epeefleche 22:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Sources for some
Ammiel Alcalay Bosnian? Moise Rahmani Greek? Edgar Morin Greek? Yosef Lapid Serbian? Lavoslav Glesinger Jewish? Olivier Strelli Greek? Thomas Nagel Serbian?

William Feller
I added William Feller to the list of Croatian Jews.

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