Talk:List of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2012 TV series) characters

Unnecessary Wikilinks / Overlinks
I've routinely removed unnecessary unnecessary wikilinks for common words and for words that don't improve our understanding of the article, yet I often find the links quietly resubmitted. I've explained my changes numerous times in edit summaries, but I've also opened discussions here, here and here. There has never been any counter-discussion for why we need wikilinks for common words like "monkey", "plant", "weed", "rat", "scientist", etc. If a person doesn't know what a rat is, they're not likely to know what DNA is, or what the word "rudimentary" means. Rather than engage in fruitless long-term edit war, and before I bother the dispute resolution volunteers to weigh in, I'm again inviting discussion on the subject of why wikilinks for common words that do not enhance understanding of the article should be included. There seem to be fairly clear guidelines at WP:OVERLINK and at WP:MOS:TV. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 04:13, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the links on the different animals and plants should be needed just like the contributors did for the characters in the 80's series. After all, we don't know what type of fish had contributed to the mutation of Xever into Fishface. Rtkat3 (talk) 10:41, March 18 2013 (UTC)
 * A wikink for fish still doesn't tell us what kind of fish Xever turned into, so I'm not sure I understand what you mean. And whatever mistakes contributors made in a related article does not require us to make the same mistakes in this one. How does linking to common words "rat", "fish", "weed", "plant", "spider", and "cockroach" help us to understand the article better?  In contrast, I agree with the inclusion of wikilinks for "Akita", "kunoichi", and "shuriken", because they are not common terms. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:57, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Still, we should leave some of the links up just like they did over at the 80's series even though that page doesn't have it's own character page like the one we edit on. Rtkat3 (talk) 10:51, March 18 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, you've already made it clear that you think the wikilinks should remain, but you haven't explained why we should ignore WP:OVERLINK and keep the links. If the entirety of your argument is that links for common words should be kept because that's how they do it on another page, it would seem that a quick edit to remove unnecessary wikilinks on that other page would negate your argument.  I don't just want to wave policy around, so if you have a specific reason for including wikilinks for common words, one that materially improves the article or our understanding of the subject, I'm all ears. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:27, 22 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I think some of those Wikilinks should remain so that those people who visit the pages can know about what animal each mutant was based off of. That way, they can click on the link to visit that page. Did I leave anything out? Rtkat3 (talk) 12:00, March 22 2013 (UTC)
 * Nope. I think I get it.  Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:24, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I saw a request for a third opinion over at WP:3O, so here I am replying! Linked articles usually (well, ideally, anyway) provide additional context about the topic. There's not much about real fish or rats that relates to the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and if I click fish I'll get information about fish, but it won't expand my knowledge about TMNT. So I haven't really learned anything new. Unless I didn't know what a fish was, but then I'd totally be doing something other than reading Wikipedia. :-) Xavexgoem (talk) 22:04, 22 March 2013 (UTC) Now if it were a mutated tarsier...
 * Thanks for the feedback, Xavexgoem.
 * Rtkat3, the comment above was the result of my request for a third opinion via WP's dispute resolution process. Does this editor's answer resolve our dispute? I'm going to proceed with the removal of common-word wikilinks from this article, and from other articles with the same issue, and I would appreciate your cooperation. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 01:58, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Probably. Rtkat3 (talk) 1:58, March 23 2013 (UTC)
 * If you're not on board, you might want to initiate the next step of dispute resolution. Whatever your decision, I would prefer that we both avoid edits such as this one, which reintroduces disputed content (a wikilink for "monkey") while we are engaged in an active discussion about the dispute.  It comes across as a little subversive, and counterproductive to dispute resolution.  Cyphoidbomb (talk) 02:49, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Shredder and Splinter backstory
I was going over some of the backstory we have in the Splinter section and in the Shredder section, when it became obvious that there are not only discrepancies between the two character bios, but also some speculation and fabrication. This is the series backstory as revealed thus far in the series: When we pick up the story with the Turtles as teenagers, Shredder sees the Hamato clan crest on a shuriken and knows that Hamato is still alive. I'm going to cut anything that doesn't match this history, unless other editors have better details. I'll wait a day or so. Thanks! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 06:53, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * In "Rise of the Turtles" we learn that Splinter, while still a human, had JUST purchased four new baby turtles when he was bumped by a Kraang robot in the street. "Something felt 'off' about him", Splinter said, so he chose to follow the humanoid droid.  The Kraang spotted Splinter and attempted to silence him.  Splinter fought back.  In the kerfuffle, the turtles were dropped, mutagen was spilled, and all four were mutated into their current forms.
 * In "Turtle Temper" we learn that long ago, Splinter fell in love with a woman named Tang Shen. Oroku Saki, "Shredder!", Raph exclaims, was also "competing for her attention".  According to Splinter: "One day, he insulted me in front of her.  He called me many things."  Splinter "lost [his] temper.  And over time [their] rivalry festered into hatred.  Until Shredder sought to finish [him]."  There are images of Shredder and Splinter fighting.  There are images of fire.  Splinter laments the loss of his "beloved Tang Shen".
 * Hamato Yoshi and Oroku Saki both seem to know each other's nicknames well enough and without question, that trying to establish or guess WHEN they each became Splinter and Shredder is fruitless; they have regular names, but they are always Splinter and Shredder, as far as we know.

April 3, 2013 - Explanation of edits
I'm changing some of Rtkat3's edits for reasons I've already explained in my edit summaries when I first made the changes, and for reasons mentioned above in the backstory summary (see above). If it's still not clear why these changes are valid, I'll explain: I've changed Hamato Yoshi and Oroku Saki's names back to Splinter and Shredder for a few reasons: 1) For clarity. It's good to know that Hamato Yoshi is Splinter and Oroku Saki is Shredder.  No problem.  But in the series, the only time we've heard their full names is when Splinter or Shredder is discussing their history.  2) The series has not addressed whether Hamato is the family name, or Yoshi is the family name, so rather than assume that Hamato Yoshi is Splinter's pre-Anglicized name, why not refer to him as Splinter? 3) The sentence "Since then, Oroku Saki became Shredder and formed the Foot Clan" is entirely made up. The series does not, as far as I remember,  describe a moment when goody-two-shoes Oroku Saki becomes the villainous Shredder.  As far as we can infer, both men knew each other as Splinter and Shredder.  In "New Friend, Old Enemy" Shredder tells Bradford that his old enemy, Hamato Yoshi, is still alive.  Bradford promises "...we will find Splinter and his disciples, and destroy them."  The point is: Splinter knew Shredder's nickname, and Shredder knew Splinter's.  Cyphoidbomb (talk) 04:28, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well I did detail some of the backstory for the recent edits including the one where the "Dragon Kata" is what Shredder taught to Chris Bradford. I don't recall in any other TMNT media where Hamato Yoshi and Oroku Saki went by their current names before the events of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Did I leave anything out? Rtkat3 (talk) 10:00, April 4 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what you're saying. Are you using information from other TMNT incarnations to fill in gaps in the 2012 series?  The 2012 series is a brand-new mythology and is not bound to previous origin stories.  In which episode did we learn that Oroku Saki became Shredder AFTER the fire and formed the Foot Clan after the fire?  You've submitted this information twice.  Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:39, 4 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I am assuming that the two characters in question have never gone by their current aliases before the events of this series. We don't have official confirmation on your claim yet. Rtkat3 (talk) 1:09, April 4 2013 (UTC)
 * Your assumption ignores information provided in the series. Once again: in "Turtle Temper" Raph knows that Oroku Saki is "Shredder".  In "New Friend, Old Enemy," Shredder tells Bradford that his enemy is alive.  Bradford then promises to find "Splinter".  If you're in the market for assumptions, it's a safer bet to assume (or to deduce) they already know each other's noms de guerre, since they're suddenly calling each other Splinter and Shredder.  But that's not even the nature of my argument.  I'm arguing that for clarity and simplicity, and to make the story accessible to the average person, (for whom these articles are intended), we should refer to Splinter and Shredder consistently by their common names, instead of inventing arbitrary points on the timeline, before which they were X and after which they became Y.  Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:07, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

RfC: Does this article's content conform with Wikipedia's encyclopedic standards for tone and content?
There have been talk page discussions regarding the level of detail and personal interpretation being documented in this article and in articles directly related to the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2012 TV franchise. A concern is that as the series progresses, the addition of non-crucial information and cruft threatens to bloat the article and render it inaccessible to the layperson.

Is the information in this article currently presented in a way as to give readers a reasonable and clear overview of the subject matter? Is it consistent with Wikipedia's general article standards, as well as with specific expectations for articles about fiction? How can we improve the encyclopedic tone of the article? What improvements can you recommend, knowing that as the series enters its second season, the article will likely continue to grow? 02:45, 21 October 2013 (UTC)


 * While it is written fairly well, it is being done so from an in-universe perspective, and so it is thusly flawed. Articles of this nature are intended to demonstrate the real world decisions that went into crafting the characters and plots surrounding said characters, not the in-universe style. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 03:53, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
 * While the article is extensively written, I disagree with the comment above, there are too much intrinsic details or biased informations, too many trivial informations about in-universe or world influences, many of them unsourced, a POV tag could well apply. Eduemoni↑talk↓  11:25, 29 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I recommend the character biographies be limited to the current level of the Turtles themselves, which seem appropriate. The characters with extensive, overly-detailed biographies should be edited down.  In-universe writing should be rewritten, such that "Michelangelo loves pizza" would become "Michelangelo is portrayed as a pizza-lover".  Preferably, there should be references for the character descriptions, as well, instead of subjective fan interpretations. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:10, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
 * RfC Comment--All un-sourced text should be removed, as it's fan trivia. The article is supposed to be a list, not a notebook for fans to write in with their perceptions of each character and its tendencies on a episodic basis.-- — Keithbob • Talk  • 18:07, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I think I made some progress. The poor quality in this and similar articles is well-established--original research, cruft, overlinking, poor writing, etc. It's a list, so it should be a list: one sentence per entry ought to be enough. Note also that many of these characters already have articles. Drmies (talk) 18:09, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the late note, but this was much appreciated, Drmies. Thanks. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:41, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Resubmission of cruft wall.
In this comment on my talk page, writes Why do you keep doing that? I was just trying to add full descriptions to the characters! appearing confused about why the walls of text he keeps adding here and here and here keep getting reverted. I will explain: the article as of this revision is a ridiculous nightmare of in-universe cruft, because editors seem incapable of differentiating between providing a concise overview of a character and noting every single thing that ever happened to the character over the course of the entire series to date. This is not constructive. A character list per MOS:TV should be focused on real-world context, and shouldn't just consist of the verbose rehashing of plot, plot, plot. This has been a major problem in this article, which is why made a stunning and substantial cut in these edits. Since then, editors keep expanding the descriptions, still without any understanding of what the goal of this character list should be. This is especially problematic when editors resort to hopping IPs and logging in (see links above) to resubmit cruft over and over, despite notices to seek consensus and to stop the disruptive editing. To reiterate, character lists should be concise and should contain real-world information, for instance, how the actor was cast, and how the characters were fleshed out, etc. Character lists should not be logorrheic, ponderous summaries of that character's plot arc. Not only does this present copyright concerns in the form of being a "derivative work", it is also mostly redundant, because we wind up repeating the same plot ideas for each character. "Donnie rescues April." "April gets rescued by Donnie". "Splinter is Shredder's mortal enemy." "Shredder is Splinter's mortal enemy." Crap like that. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:39, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
 * , perhaps it's time to apply semi-protection--wait, it's a registered account? God no. Drmies (talk) 21:11, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

Reversion - October 29, 2015
In this edit I reverted to an older version of this article because the intermediate changes introduce excessive detail, speculation about species, redundant language, run-on-sentences, and other problematic grammar and typography that doesn't materially improve our understanding of the series. Some examples:
 * "...who was mutated into a humanoid mutant rat by the same mutagen that mutated his adoptive sons."
 * So, you're saying there was some kind of mutation, are you?
 * "The 16-year-old daughter of Dr. Kirby O'Neil with Kraang-like powers that she inherited from her mother, who becomes an ally of the Tutles, mainly the love interest of Donatello, when they saved her from the Kraang."
 * What does this mean? That April's mother becomes an ally of the Tutles? What are Tutles? And mom became Donatello's love interest? Ambiguous pronouns and other grammar issues.
 * "The daughter of Hamato Yoshi (Splinter) who, as a baby, was taken away from Splinter by Oroku Saki (Shredder) following her mother's death and raised in the Foot Clan against her actual father and the Turtles until her redemption as their sisterly ally, mainly the love interest of Leonardo, after discovering the truth."
 * WTH?
 * "...mutating himself into a 6 ft. mutant blob of mutagen..."
 * "one of the primary antagonists of the series."
 * We don't use "-gonist" language. WP:ANTAGONIST.
 * "A box turtle raised as a pet turtle by Raphael who later gets mutated by spilled mutagen in Raphael's room 6 ft. humanoid mutant box turtle with a spiked shell, long fingernails for makeshift weapons, heightened smell and superhuman agility armed with a mace and appointed leader of the Mighty Mutanimals."

There's just too much of this. The summaries should be concise and shouldn't be bogged down in in-universe detail. Where's the real world information that MOS:TVCAST is looking for? Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:24, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Alphabetical order
I reordered the turtles in alphabetical order, not favourite characters. J 1982 (talk) 10:30, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

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