Talk:List of Thomas & Friends railway engines/Archive 1

Previous discussion summarised

 * This article is for TV Series characters only. Characters from and references to the movies, or the Railway Series, do not belong in this article
 * Any false or otherwise unproven information will be removed
 * It has been generally accepted that the correct terminology is engines rather than "locomotives" or "trains". This is how characters are referred in the the series.

Please note that the following engines have their own pages: As such, their profiles on this page are only very brief, and are explored in much more details on their own pages. All other characters are on this page, so long as they can be considered to be regular characters.
 * Thomas
 * Edward
 * Henry
 * Gordon
 * James
 * Percy
 * Toby
 * Duck
 * Donald and Douglas
 * Emily

Any updates to this page should be valid, and justified. Any updates which are not appropriate will be corrected ASAP by myself or someone else.

Sorry to be a real stickler, but I've put in hours bringing this page up to standard. Many thanks to those who have made positive contributions thus far. Gonzerelli 12:26, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Lady, and Diesel 10
Believe it or not, there is a very good reason behind Lady and Diesel 10 not being included at all in this article.

Neither character has appeared in any episode of the TV Series. They also have no influence whatsoever on any episode of the TV Series.

You may argue that Calling All Engines brought them from the movie world into the TV world. But CAE came before Season 9, and lo and behold, they didn't appear at all...

These two characters are therefore movie only characters, and do not have a place in this article (which I have said over and over is for TV Series characters only)

Origins of Duke's story
The summary on Duke originally said his story is based on a locomotive lost in the Brazilian rain forest. This is a reference to the Lynton and Barnstaple Railway's Lew which disappeared into the depths of Brazil in 1936 (see ). However I don't think this is the story that inspired the Rev. Awdry to write about Duke. He took his inspiration from Fire Queen a very early loco of the Padarn Railway that was sealed into its loco shed and forgotten for many decades until it was uncovered in the 1960's and restored. Gwernol 16:12, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure on that, to be honest - IIRC, the Reverend noted the Brazilian incident in his introduction to the RS book Duke the Lost Engine. I'll have to have a look at it and get back to you - but my gut is saying that what was there is correct.Thehalford 20:36, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Its entirely possible I'm wrong about this and the entry needs to be change. If someone can turn up the definitive story, we can get it right. I'm more than happy to revert my change if I've got it wrong. Gwernol 21:06, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Until there is substantial proof either way, I will not update my backed-up file with this information. Gonzerelli 09:43, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
 * From the book itself: "An engine lost in the South American jungle was found after 30 years. A tree had grown through its chimney and hornets nested in its firebox. When mended it gave good service for 30 more years. As such, the Brazilian story is the correct one :) Thehalford 08:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Other Engines?
I was wondering if Smudger, Bertram, or City of Truro would be added, because I can't see them there. User: Thomasfan 7:44 Sunday 12 March


 * All those engines have only been shown in one episode, and none look likely to be returning. I personally can't see the point of having them there, but I'll talk with the bloke who's been looking after this page and see what he says. Thehalford 22:32, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * That's my thoughts exactly. As it is, Derek's borderline...
 * The basic criteria I used was: Could the character possibly be considered as a "regular" character, and would they be likely to make future appearances? For each of those engines, it's a no and a no. Gonzerelli 23:01, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Engines' numbers on the list
OK, a final decision has been made by the team of people working on this and other Thomas-related articles.

Apart from the numbers currently on the list, no other numbers will be listed.

The numbers remaining on the list are, then;


 * 1-11 Standard Gauge (Thomas, Edward, Henry, Gordon, James, Percy, Toby, Duck, Donald, Douglas, Oliver)


 * 1-6 Narrow Gauge (Skarloey, Rheneas, Sir Handel, Peter Sam, Rusty, Duncan)


 * 27 (Harvey - "the number 27, including the Narrow Gauge engines and excluding Diesel, accurately reflects him being the 27th addition to the fleet of engines working on Sodor. [Quoted direct from article] )

All other numbers, whether real, fake, imitative or speculative, have no real place in this article, since they have no bearing or influence on the running of the railway on Sodor.

For reference, the prior discussion re. Neville and Dennis' numbers is below.

Gonzerelli 12:13, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Neville and Dennis - NO NUMBERS
(Prior discussion)

I don't know how many times this needs to be said - Neville and Dennis do NOT - I repeat do NOT - have numbers! The numbers are removed because they are incorrect and fake. They may well be the numbers for the real world equivalent of these characters, but on the Island of Sodor - Neville and Dennis do NOT have numbers and we would appreciate it if whoever it is putting them in the article would kindly cease and desist (which means stop, if you didn't know). Thehalford 01:55, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * This is entirely correct. Whoever is doing this: Stop being so cowardly, join this site, and take it into user chat. There is no reason for this incorrect and inaccurate information to turn into an edit war.


 * I can promise you that no matter how many times you try to add these numbers in, there is a team of people who will remove them promptly. Gonzerelli 08:36, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey I'm just putting down what I see. Acrroding To Dennis's Real Model Page he carries the same number(11001), Neville's LC model depicts his number as 33010, and Salty's Tomica Number says it's 2991. So if you want to blame someone blame Learning Curve and Tomy.


 * Well, toy releases are hardly the most reliable source for a television series. Keep that in mind. :) Gonzerelli 05:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)


 * But what about Dennis? He carries the same number as his Real-World Counterpart.


 * And this real-world counterpart is clearly linked to within the article. Why get your knickers in a knot over this superficial slice of information, when it is already linked to??? Gonzerelli 03:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

A small reminder about Wiki etiquette
Hi, I do not have an opinion on engine numbers or which engines should be included in this article. But I would like to gently remind everyone about Wikipedia's policy on ownership of articles and remaining civil. It seems like people are coming close to cross both lines and this is not helping this article or Wikipedia more generally. Thanks Gwernol 16:31, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Message understood. The only reason the line was toed is because of frequent edits by unregistered user(s), who refuse to discuss changes.
 * I hope that the newer notes inserted into the article make reasons for the information, as it exists, clear. Gonzerelli 09:18, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Slight contradiction to your numbers rule...
Daisy, Boco, Bear and Mavis, ARE D1 thru D4, according to the Awdrys themselves. Same with Duke being No. 1 on the MSR (Mid-Sodor Railway) and being given 8 when 'forwarded' to the small railway. Fred, No. 9, DOES exist, he is mentioned in the 40th book, New Little Engine, and C. Awdry says he is number 9. Please do not delete my additions, if you don't agree then email Chris Awdry and he will tell you. ;-)

And Bill and Ben's number 1 and 2 ARE real, they can be seen in the original railway series books painted right above their faces. I have no idea why they weren't numbered with Thomas to Oliver, but Mr. Awdry did that because they are numbered for the Clay Branch Line.

About Harvey, that is correct, and I will make a complete list of engines that lead up to 27 so you can see:


 * 1-11 Standard Gauge (Thomas, Edward, Henry, Gordon, James, Percy, Toby, Duck, Donald, Douglas, Oliver)
 * 1-2 Standard Gauge (Bill, Ben)
 * D1-4 Standard Gauge (Daisy, Boco, Bear (probably replace Bear with Derek since he's not on TV), Mavis)
 * Other Standard Gauge (Arry, Bert, Salty)
 * 1-6 Narrow Gauge (Skarloey, Rheneas, Sir Handel, Peter Sam, Rusty, Duncan)

Or maybe Derek isn't counted since he's a visitor and they're counting Duke instead. That's probably more likely. And by the way... it's a good thing that Duke doesn't have his No. 8 painted on, or the TV series would be missing No. 7... well they are regardless but you know what I mean.


 * 27 (Harvey - "the number 27, including the Narrow Gauge engines and excluding Diesel, accurately reflects him being the 27th addition to the fleet of engines working on Sodor. [Quoted direct from article])


 * Sorry mate, this article is dealing with the TV Series, not the RWS - as such, the RWS numbers aren't correct. Same deal with Bill and Ben. Which is also why Bear is being removed from the article.


 * From the first topic on this page: This article is for TV Series characters only. Characters from and references to the movies, or the Railway Series, do not belong in this article Thehalford 21:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thehalford is correct. While The Railway Series and the TV Series are closely linked (since the RWS did indeed "give birth" to the TVS), the two are truly separate entities. I'm sure if you asked Christopher Awdry whether or not the TV Series represents his or his father's views on Sodor, you would get a reply which indicates the negative.


 * As such, this article represents the TV Series' characters. As there are different characters, and different characteristics to common characters, in the Railway Series, a second article "Railway engines (The Railway Series)" will probably be created soon.


 * As it is, we're just taking the time to get this, and other, articles right before creating any new ones. Gonzerelli 06:55, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * According to "Sodor; Reading Between the Lines", Christopher Awdry agrees that the TVS has completely gone off the rails (pardon the pun) and that he no longer has any influence on it, as well as that they have no intention to televising the Awdrys' original works. Ranting Martian 12:14pm, 17 September 2006 (Australian time)

Recent edits
An unregistered user has recently tried to reformat this article, by adding more headings, changing the character order, and inserting minor characters into the article. These edits only served to further complicate an article which is already quite detailed, but in quite a balanced way.

It appears this was a part of the unregistered user's plans to remove two articles, such as this one. While this was a good intention, the articles have been planned by participants of WikiProject Thomas, and this unregistered user's edits went against these plans.

We are quite happy to discuss this should the user wish, and take on board their thoughts. However, without discussion, we will only revert any further edits of the kind.

Gonzerelli 16:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Rusty to the Rescue
The section on the "Rusty to the Rescue" episode (which I've just moved from the Stepney to the Rusty section) contains a number of what are called weasel words. It makes a lot of claims about particular criticisms of the episodes but doesn't have any sources to back these up. Unless sources are provided soon I will remove the entire section as speculation. Thanks, Gwernol 20:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Couple of points...


 * Assuming this section is retained, should it really be moved to Rusty's section? It is, after all, highlighting the major plot differences and historical inaccuracies between TV and book, that primarilly concern Stepney.
 * I really don't know the TV series that well, but I was fascinated to read that Stepney's story had been warped so much to fit it into the TV Series. So on that basis, I reckon it should be retained in some form. (Especially since, as a result, I now know the meaning of deus ex machina !!)
 * How about if the paragraph is re-written to remove the 'weasel words'? Something like...


 * The episode is an example of the unrealistic storylines used in later series that annoyed Rev. W. Awdry so much (see The 'Henry's Forest' Controversy in Henry the Green Engine).


 * It is essentially a reworking of the rescue of Oliver, and has a rather contrived plot. It uses a number of deus ex machina plot devices in order for Rusty to be able to carry out his rescue, for example: the  narrow gauge railway is extended as far as the Other Railway; Rusty gains a hitherto-unmentioned second crew member; and the derelict Stepney is fired-up and almost ready to go.


 * The story also ignores the real history of the real Stepney, in that he was actually rescued by the Bluebell Railway (the reason for the Rev W. Awdry writing Stepney into the series was to provide a means of publicising that line).


 * Is that any better? I have this feeling that it is lacking a final sentence, conclusion, or some such, but I would much rather the original citations were provided, as the original comments seem entirely justified!  Incidentally, I use the term 'unrealistic' intentionally: how could a narrow gauge engine rescue a standard gauge one?
 * EdJogg 00:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Ed, this is greatly improved and you should go ahead and replace the existing version with this. In this form I agree it can be put into the Stepney section. Thanks for making this improvement. Gwernol 00:34, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Gwernol, thank you for your affirmation. It means I must be getting the hang of Wiki-editing - it needs a very disciplined approach!  Will apply the change shortly. EdJogg 01:00, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Page for Oliver
Shouldn't Oliver the Great Western Engine have a page for himself? Need to know whether or not. --imdanumber1 18:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No. As per WikiProject Thomas. Put simply, as his section states, he has not been given the opportunity to develop to the extent of his counterparts. Gonzerelli 02:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Season 10 characters
Please note that Thomas and Friends - Season 10 has NOT been released yet. As such, until the season has been released, and information can be verified, please do not add characters from this season to this page. Gonzerelli 12:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Extended titles
Recent edits were made to change the section titles to longer, somewhat extended descriptions of the engines (eg. "Thomas the Tank Engine, No. 1). This has been reverted for three reasons As such, the titles for each character's section have been reverted to just the characters' names. Gonzerelli 12:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * In many cases, the names were not "official" names - "Murdoch the Mighty Engine", for example, has no verifiable link with the TV Series
 * Any "extra" information put in the section title can easily be read within the sections, and so does not need to be placed in the title
 * It messes with the anchored WikiLinks coming from dozens of pages.

Season 10
Do Molly, Neville, Dennis, Arthur and Murdoch have a chance of Appearing in season 10?


 * Why on earth are you asking this? Of course they are, they're existing characters in the series. Gonzerelli 02:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)


 * It is my personal believe and opinon that all the engines (Except Smudger since he was scrapped, and Proteus since he was a made-up character) are working somewhere on sodor and will return to the TV Series in the coming seasons.


 * You've said the magic words (even if you didn't spell them right) - belief and opinion. There is nothing to verifiably show that all engines will definitely return. Gonzerelli 01:57, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

New pictures
Some "new" images of some engines have been put onto this article recently. While I haven't done anything to change them (except deleting non-official superfluous namings), I don't think there was any reason to change the images in the first place.

Further, I feel that the new images are not as suitable as the "old" ones. The images which used to be in this article showed more of the engines' "sides" - that is, their length, while still showing their faces. A great example of this is Gordon, whose image was brilliant, but now his length is blurred and covered in steam, rather than being shown clearly.

Thoughts? Gonzerelli 07:02, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * In general, I would agree with you. I nearly reverted some, but held off as the new images have a degree of consistency about them and are, in some cases, better; for example: James (previously: inconsistent frame), Percy (weird face), and Fergus (out-of-focus).  Others, however, are not: the previous Thomas pic was MUCH better; Edward now has a most peculiar face (and does not show his wheel arrangement); Henry and Gordon are near identical shots, and obscured (as mentioned); previous Emily was MUCH clearer.  Also, many of the images are very heavilly cropped - the 'new chimney' Peter Sam for example, has the top of the chimney missing! However, to be fair to the user who applied all these, the changes on other pages (eg Bertie on 'vehicles' page) are a great improvement.
 * There is scope for much improvement across all of the 'Thomas' pages - and if pictures can be selected where the engines do not all have inane grins, so much the better!
 * EdJogg 08:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Very astute, and helpful, as always, Ed. I agree fully. As such, I will make edits as follows:
 * KEEP: James, Percy, Fergus, Henry (shows length more effectively)
 * REVERT: Thomas, Edward, Gordon, Emily
 * I have no objection to "new" images replacing old ones, however the images should at least be "better" than the ones they are replacing. Gonzerelli 14:00, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Neville, Murdoch and Furgus's returns
How do you know that Neville and Furgus return in season 11 and Murdoch in season 12?


 * This is the kind of unverifiable information we must work to eliminate as soon as it surfaces. Gonzerelli 06:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)