Talk:List of Trinity Blood characters/Archive 1

Fair use rationale for Image:Cain transformed.JPG
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 * Fair use rationale added AnmaFinotera 15:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Esther Trinity Blood.JPG
Image:Esther Trinity Blood.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 04:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Hugue.png
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BetacommandBot 04:25, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:KateScott.png
Image:KateScott.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 06:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:LeonAsturias.JPG
Image:LeonAsturias.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot 13:06, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:FrancescoMedici.JPG
Image:FrancescoMedici.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 18:18, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:WilliamWordsworth.JPG
Image:WilliamWordsworth.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 19:56, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:AlessandroXVIII.JPG
Image:AlessandroXVIII.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 13:41, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Esther Trinity Blood.JPG
Image:Esther Trinity Blood.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 07:45, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:CaterinaSforza.JPG
Image:CaterinaSforza.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot 23:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:NoelleBor.png
Image:NoelleBor.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot 02:04, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Lilith Sahl
Her name is Lilith Sahl. Not Lilith "Eve" Sahl. She wasn't anyone's mother figure, she was Abel's lover and soulmate. It's stated in the very beginning, RAM I: From the Empire, Abel is following his dead *lover's* wishes by Seth and in her profile in Canon the name "mother" is never used, she's flat out described as Abel's soulmate and dead lover. Don't try to Rem her. She's Abel's lover, leader of the Terran side during the war and known as the Black Madonna, the greatest saint of the Church in TB. 190.136.245.201 02:58, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Brother Petros
Is the character in the Ibelis series and "The Throne of Roses series" the same character? I have only seen the first episode in "The Throne of Roses" but I find it odd that neither Petros nor Abel make any mention of past events, especially events in "A Mark of Sinner" where it looks like Pertos dies. Is this a discrepancy or is it explained in later episodes? If it is explained later on please do not go into specifics (well, obvious thought is he is now a puppet). 69.179.188.152 08:12, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Jessica Langston
I updated the Jessica Langston section to remove the "she is clumsy" description and reworded it to read better. Regarding clumsy, it is pretty clear she intentionally spills the milk on Father Abel so she can offer him a sandwich to make up for it. Recall that Abel tells her he cannot afford a sandwich and has not eaten in a very long time before the "accident" (emphasis on the quotes). 69.179.188.152 16:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Rosen what?
How is the actual name of the Order (or Orden) spelled? Rosenkreuz Orden, Rosen Kreuz Orden, Rosenkreutz Orden, Order of Rosenkreuz....its spelled several ways in the article...which is correct? TPrice180 17:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

'Rosencreutz Orden' is the only correct form. This is the Old High German spelling of the organisation's name, and this form was used in Yoshida's and Thores' notes as well. 'Rosenkreuz' would be the modern German form, is however as incorrect as any other spelling in the series.

False Information+Vandalism
Apparantly, somebody thinks it's hilarious to deface the Trinity Blood list of characters. Abel's profile has been reduced to mere gibberish. Esther's information has been merged into Noelle's information, and Tres, Hugue, and Esther have been shoved below the References section. Also, Vaclav's profile has had a very...interesting...piece of information added to the end. Gee, I didn't know there was an Episode 25 of Trinity Blood, nor that Vaclav was a female and in fact a sex android. What's even more sad is that I tried to edit it to return it to its proper correct state, but alas, I was told by the system that someone had recently edited it and therefore, my edit was overruled. Seeing how all information before was factual and in proper English, I'd wish to bring this to the attention of Wikipedia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.68.179.182 (talk) 06:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC). 66.68.179.182 09:50, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Latin
Under Dietrich von Lohengrin's profile, it says that "Igne Natura Renovatur Integra" means "through fire, nature is reborn whole", yet under The Rosen∴Kreuz∴Orden (RCO), it says that it means "By Flames Shall The Earth Be Reborn". I don't much latin, but that does not look like it would mean the same thing. Bobman110 15:39, 7 June 2007 (UTC)


 * My guess (I don't speak Latin either) is that one is the literal translation, and the other is what the Orden is actually trying to convey with their motto. The two phrases don't seem that different to me anyway. &mdash; Red XIV (talk) 21:58, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Cain Nightroad vs. Cain Knightlord
My understanding from the flashbacks in the last few episodes of this anime, from what Seth says to Abel, and from the main page of this article is that Cain is the cloned brother of Abel, Seth. Hence, the last name should be Nightroad instead of Knightlord. I'll go forward and change it again, but if there is some evidence in the Manga or other sources that I don't have access too, could you please list it here? Thanks, --Lanji 19:38, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

-- Your reasoning is wrong. Cain's surname has been spelled as "Knightlord" in romanji in images. This is because they aren't really "siblings" per se, related in a political sense. Seth is Nightlord and Abel is Nightroad. They are spelled the same in katakana, but different in English. The three are known as Night Lords Siblings, though. 190.31.212.243 22:02, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

--- Yes, I agree. It is true. I do my fair share of research on the internet. (I am a fangitl) And all of my searches end up as his name being Nightlord. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Risknext (talk • contribs) 03:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Copyvio Questions
This article seems to have copied character details word from word from some official Trinity Blood materials? If so, they should be removed as it violates WP:COPYVIO. If it is not a word for word copy, it needs proper citing. AnmaFinotera 06:49, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

If no one objections, I think the indented sections under some characters, with codename et al, should be removed. Most of the stuff there is already covered by the prose anyway, so much of it is redundant, and as I mentioned earlier, possibly copyied from somewhere else, which would make it a WP:COPYVIO.

Meanwhile I've done some specific inline tagging as well as over all tagging for the lack of references in the article and possible OR (such as the based ons). The article needs to have citations for claims. For information from the show on character background, personality, etc, individual episodes can be cited using the cite episode template. Other information needs to come from WP:Reliable Sources. AnmaFinotera 15:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Do you think we could search for the info and try to cite it before we try to remove it.Rogue Commander (talk) 21:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * scratching head* All of the clean up I've been doing has been removing the "profile" style stuff (which looks like it was copied from somewhere) and merging it into the actual prose, which reads and looks nicer and removes the redundancies.  I haven't removed anything that I wasn't certain was wrong, only tagging some stuff for a need for a reference (usually because I'm not sure if it came from the novels, manga, or anime).  I've been tagging items from the anime as I've cleaned up each section.  If I removed something specific that you felt shouldn't be removed, please let me know so we can discuss it. AnmaFinotera (talk) 22:03, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Merge
I've proposed a merger between the two list of Trinity Blood characters. There really is no reason to have two separate lists. Any deviations between the characters amongst the novels, anime, and manga should be noted in their relevant sections here, while major novel and manga characters can also easily be added here with an appropriate note in their description that they only appear in X. AnmaFinotera 15:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Merge completed! :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 01:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Clean Up
I have started cleaning up the article, to remove the probably copyvio sections, clean up the writing style and structure, incorporate some redundant info from the main article (i.e. the info on the four Crusniks), removed one episode minor characters as per WP:Fict and the article's own introduction, and any other clean up as necessary. I have not read the novels, however, so if I mistate something while rewriting a section, please feel free to let me know or correct it.

Also, almost all of the images in this article are lacking Fair Use Rationales, which is why they have been getting deleted. I've added an appropriate one to some images, such as Image:Cain transformed.JPG, but many more still need them added. It would be great to have help there since the images do add to most of the sections. The fair use template and rationale from the Cain image can serve as a model. AnmaFinotera 15:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I have, for the most part, cleaned up the info. It just needs to be sighted. Rogue Commander (talk) 01:39, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for joining in with the clean up! It is really appreciated :)  I've added in some more citations for those episodes I've seen so far.  I haven't read the novels myself, yet, so I can't cite items that come from there, but hopefully someone else will or I can add them later as they are released and I can read them.  :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 01:46, 22 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the novels have character descriptions either in the back or front of the book. Rogue Commander (talk) 18:17, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Those can be used as sources, if well cited and not just copied from the novels. AnmaFinotera (talk) 19:55, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Consistency of Headers
In looking at the TOC for this article, I realized the headers were very inconsistent. Some had the titles, ranks etc in the header in parentheses, while others did not. For consistency, I've updated the Vatican section of the article so that the title/rank are no longer in the headers, but instead are worked into the character descriptions. I've also done this in some other sections as I've been cleaning them up, and will continue to do so unless there are objections. This gives the article more consistent, makes the TOC and page as a whole look nicer, and seems to be consistent with it is done in other character lists. Thoughts? Do y'all agree this is an improvement, or do you think the other way is better?

As a side note, I've removed the ref improve tag, since there are now almost 20 of them (though they are all episode sites...would love to see some manga and novel citations! AnmaFinotera (talk) 19:55, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Images
I've been given the heads up that this article is using way too many non-free images, and does not comply with WP:NFCC. As such, I've removed the place images, and images for any semi-minor characters or those that just appear in one or two episodes. I've tagged the article as WIP while I work on more of the clean up and on trying to find some pair/group images to get the number of images down some more. If you can suggest some images that can be used under the fair use guidelines, please post a link here. I'll remove the WIP tag when I'm done. AnmaFinotera (talk) 00:43, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Manga differences could use more noting.
I noticed that all the descriptions are of the characters covers the anime, with notes about them from the manga, but it only glances. I sadly lack knowledge of the manga, though if someone whom read it could add the information more thoroughly? 67.82.234.72 (talk) 07:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Work is still going on to expand the characters to include info from the novels and the manga series, but I also have only seen the anime (and am still watching it...two more episodes to go!).  I hope to get the manga and novel series soon, though, so I can start going back and adding cites and information from there. AnmaFinotera (talk) 07:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Non Free Images
non-free There are a lot a image on this page, but they are acceptable and I think that this thing should be taking off the article. I only put this tag on the top to show people what I mean.--Stco23 (talk) 05:25, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * An admin, User:Rettetast, is the one who tagged the article, so I'm not sure what you mean by you being the one who put it there? He is correct in that there are still too many. Several individual pics can (and need to be) replaced with group images to further reduce non-free image usage. AnmaFinotera (talk) 05:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * That's ok if you think it should be in as a group. I changed my top message because I didn't say it right the first time and you replied about it. I checked every single photo on that article and saw that they were fine. I don't care if they are in a group or not. I do find them ok. Bye for now.--Stco23 (talk) 06:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Oh, okay. No problem.  Just was confused by your first message :)  I personally liked it with individual images, but when editing, we must put aside our personal preferences in deference to policy :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 06:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Spelling
I am sorry, but I changed Francesco's spelling because I think that is correct. I am Italian and I come from Florence. In Trinity Blood people from Vatican have italian names, italian historical people's names too. In fact Caterina Sforza, Francesco de' Medici and Alfonso d'Este really lived in Renaissance. Why Francesco di Medici is the correct spelling? Who determined it? I would like to know it please. Forgive my grammatical errors, but I do not know English very well. Kaho Mitsuki (talk) 13:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The creator of Trinity Blood is the one who determines the correct spellings of the names, not anyone else. It is written as "di" in the novels, and as this is a list of the characters in the Trinity Blood series, and not the historical figures, we will use the spellings that are used in the novels, manga, and/or anime series. AnmaFinotera (talk) 12:59, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I understand but the original novels are written in kanji. I think the autor was inspired by the Italian Renaissance for this characters (Alessandro XVIII is the antithesis of Alessandro VI, Papa Borgia). The English translation of kanji could not be wrong? Kaho Mitsuki (talk) 14:08, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Whether it is or is not, we use what the official translations say. AnmaFinotera (talk) 13:42, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Revisiting the Images
As noted earlier, we still have too many non-free images. I found an image from the Kadokawa site that illustrates TEN of the characters instead of five, which would allow us to clear out a few more images. What do you all think of it? Image:Trinity Blood Characters.jpg? AnmaFinotera (talk) 13:47, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * At least this one has Kate, Noélle and most characters, but isn't there some image with Asthe and the antagonists. OgasawaraSachiko (Talk) 14:01, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thus far, we haven't found any usable group images of the antagonists nor of the Seth, Asthe, et al. Still a work in progress, but a continuing effort. The catch tends to be that most such images are fan created, and thus completely unusable by Wikipedia guidelines.AnmaFinotera (talk) 14:09, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Since there have been no objections after two days, I've gone ahead and put this image in place. I've also removed all other images so the non-free tag can go. Now, if we can just find one good, usable group image for the New Human Empire and for Rosenkreuz, it will all be good. AnmaFinotera (talk) 15:42, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Something similar to this would be good...

http://pds1.egloos.com/pds/1/200601/02/06/b0040506_1115062.jpg

I'm still trying to find a decent pic of the Methuselah, Seth, Ion, and the others...(Rosewater Alchemist (talk) 04:15, 17 April 2008 (UTC))


 * Yes, it would. Too bad the quality of that one is too low and its covered with text :( AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:26, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Isaak Fernand von Kämpfer... a Human?
The current biography describes Isaak as a vampire... I'm pretty sure he's a mere human, albeit, a very clever one. I have read the novels, and Isaak is never revealed to be a Methuselah or Crusnik, he is a human, like Caterina or Dietrich. Would anyone mind me giving this a quick fix? Also, I'm not sure where the info about his hair being composed of mono-carbon fibers came from... this material is used as a weapon during his duel with Gunslinger, but it isn't recorded as being part of his hair or body... (Rosewater Alchemist (talk) 03:28, 16 April 2008 (UTC))


 * I believe that is more explicitly stated in the anime, but I'll double check the novels to see if there is a source there to use. I'll also recheck the mono-carbon fibers. AnmaFinotera (talk) 03:41, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The New Human Empire
Now I have been trying to add some actual factual info on the location of the Methuselah Empire that is better than what we have, and it keeps getting removed on the basis that it is "excessive". Now, how anyone can see this info as excessive is beyond me, especially when it is cited, relevant info that consist of the grand maximum of ONE sentence. Can someone please explain this rationale. Rogue Commander (talk) 21:52, 26 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I left you a note on your talk page already to explain it. This isn't supposed to be the Trinity Blood guide, and only a basic over view is needed. The page already has too much in-universe plot information. The exact and specific geography of any of the locations is unnecessary, particularly in a character list. All that is needed is enough of a summary to give an overview of the Empire for giving context to the characters listed under it. Minute detail belongs on a Wikia or some other Wiki, but not here. AnmaFinotera (talk) 21:56, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of Imperials and Empire. Stop editing out Shahrazad al-Rahman: SHE'S the main character of ONE ROM (IV: Imitation Star) novel next to Esther (think Gyula in ROM I although Shahrazad is even more important in her role as protagonist), far more important than the likes of Mirka Fortuna or Noelle Borr, she's Esther's tovaras NO LESS and the reason why Esther wants to change the freakin' world and became the Lady-Saint, not a minor character, rather she (as Gyula though he was less so), is a major one shot character with incredibly plot and character development relevance. You can find the adaptation in the manga in Acts 35-45 (volumes 10-12, last one not yet published). Unless "minor" characters get to be Manga covers, as she was in tanko 10, maybe someone needs to reconsider their definition. 190.246.149.219 (talk) 03:15, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Splitting
This page is very long. I recommend we split each major organization on this page into its own article and leave this article for minor characters like Lillith. Characters working for specific organizations could be listed on those pages. Also, I recommend making a seperate page on "The World of Trinity Blood" that could link to each organization's page and list minor organizations and characters. It could also handle the in-universe info on the humans, kresniks, and Methuselah found on the main page, and carry any other necessary info. What do you think? Rogue Commander (talk) 11:49, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * No, absolutely not. The page is fine. Such splits would be inappropriate and excessive and a violation of WP:FICT. This page needs trimming, not splitting, as it already has too much in-universe information, which is not where the focus of it should be. Such a "World of Trinity Blood" would be even worse. All would just be deleted. AnmaFinotera (talk) 13:44, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * If we were to split, they'd just be merged. There's no need for it when one article is fine enough. It's true that the list is rather large, and unfortunately there's hardly any out-of-universe info on the main characters to justify individuals. The only way to handle that problem is to trim info and cut out unnecessary characters. Fox816 (talk) 19:35, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Yep. This list needs a good scrubbing and a rewrite. Its on my list of things to do, but still working on another big list right now so haven't had time. If someone wants to suggest possible characters for cutting out, though, that's probably the place to start. AnmaFinotera (talk) 19:38, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

That's just it. What is there left to trim? All the main characters are here! And you have already narrowed down the info to the most important points. What else could be done? 74.226.179.97 (talk) 04:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Cleaning out excessive plot description, if needed, as there is currently no real-world info. Can also tighten up the prose. Beyond that, the list is find, and mostly in need of sourcing and final polishing, not splitting. AnmaFinotera (talk) 05:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the main character (Abel) could probably get his own page. That is usually the case in long running anime franchises.67.33.96.159 (talk) 17:55, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * No, he couldn't. So far, I've yet to find the necessary sources to support his having a page that meets WP:FICT (I have been looking). With the creators death, it seems unlikely there will be any new information available on the creation/conception info needed. If you know of any reliable sources, of course, feel free to post them. I haven't seen any notes in the manga yet, but I've only read the first volume. I don't think the anime sets include any. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 18:00, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Try the novels. They are still being released in America, and that will mean more info will become available. They already have more info than the manga and anime combined.Rogue Commander (talk) 02:50, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * They have more plot information. So far, none of the novels have included any production information or author notes (and considering the stuff going on at TP, we may not get them all anyway :. So still doesn't meet WP:FICT. He must have significant coverage in multiple reliable sources. I'm rather suprised he doesn't have more coverage, but several of the good anime/manga books that might discuss him came out before the series did. -- AnmaFinotera  (talk · contribs) 02:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Abel-Lilith Relationship
The nature of Abel and Lilith's relationship was key in the developments of both characters. It is also a detail that is commonly confused among fans. The fact that they were lovers in explicitly stated in the first volume of Rage Against the Moons. It is also heavily implied at the end of the second volume of Reborn on Mars. So shouldn't it be mentioned under their respective character profiles? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iomeces (talk • contribs) 18:43, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with this. In the Canon background book, they were said to be lovers, describing Lilith as Abel's soulmate, even. 190.189.9.77 (talk) 04:15, 5 July 2008 (UTC)