Talk:List of United States Congress members killed or wounded in office

Candidates
As you have probably discovered, Franklin Roosevelt forbade Congressmen to enlist during WW II. The implication here is that they probably served in most other wars. I would think that if this service qualifies, you might find several Congressmen wounded or killed in the American Civil War. The other wars tended to be a bit too brief for sufficient exposure to enemy fire. Student7 (talk) 22:25, 5 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm in a hurry at the moment, but I think this page ( http://politicalgraveyard.com/death/civil-war.html ) might give some good content. MatthewVanitas (talk) 20:56, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Does cause of death matter?
Is the intent of this page to only cover assassinations and attempted assassinations? Or to cover every member of congress who died while they were serving? The broader definition would greatly expand this page. For example, Paul Wellstone died in plane crash. Carter Glass died of a heart attack. Robert Byrd and Ted Kennedy both recently passed away while in office. John Barbour died in office. Most likely there are many, many more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.246.125.93 (talk) 20:38, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

RFK
I'm removing the inclusion of RFK because he was killed when campaigning for president, not in the line of duty, meaning participating in actions relevant to his congressional service. --Muboshgu (talk) 20:43, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * - He was still a sitting Senator. I would readd it. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 20:48, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * - I think this needs to be readded. A senator is still a Senator even if doing other things; the lede even notes "representing American interests," which he was certainly doing even if it wasn't specifically his Senatorial duties at the time. By the logic for removal of RFK, McDonald ought to be removed as well because he was just flying on a passenger plane when he was killed. 99.55.199.47 (talk) 21:06, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
 * - Sirhan Sirhan allegedly shot Kennedy due to his support for Israel. His support for Israel went back decades and certainly affected his policy decisions as a Senator.  We are also not exactly opening a barn door here.  Kennedy is the only sitting Senator to have every been assassinated.

I re-added RFK; I believe there is reasonable consensus above against removal, and reasonable justification especially given the notes about Sirhan's motives. 99.55.199.47 (talk) 21:22, 9 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The problem here is that the article clearly states that these Members of Congress were wounded or killed in the line of duty. According to numerous sources, the only Member of Congress killed in the line of duty was Leo Ryan.  (See that article.)  The others were killed while in office, but not while on official Congressional business.  With that in mind, there may need to be revisions to the list of wounded Members of Congress as well.  Gabrielle Giffords certainly qualifies, as she was wounded at a constituency meeting, but I'm not sure about the others off-hand. -- JeffBillman (talk) 02:47, 10 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Erm, never mind what I said about the wounded Members of Congress. Clearly they were on official Congressional business as well.  Sorry, I should have read that section before commenting. -- JeffBillman (talk) 02:52, 10 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Larry McDonald was traveling for official business when his plane was shot down. Also, if Giffords was considered to be on official business then Kennedy and Long were on official business as well.  The details of Hinds' assassination are not well documented.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.246.125.93 (talk) 04:37, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I still believe that distinction is rather academic. However, I renamed the article to remove the "line of duty" bit and replaced it with "in office". Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 09:50, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Good move, Titoxd. I agree that the distinction is academic, which makes changing the title a good idea.  In the end, it hardly matters that Ryan was on Congressional business while RFK was serving the American people by running for President. -- JeffBillman (talk) 00:21, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Revamped lede
The lede seemed overly long, with unnecessary information. I cleaned it up, mainly by removing the reference to Leo Ryan and trimming details on Gabby Giffords; I don't see any reason to include Ryan over other victims. I kept Gabby Giffords as an example because she was the most recent victim, and thus the most currently notable. If someone displaces her, that can be changed; I think it makes encyclopedic sense to refer to the most recent victim. If anyone is also referred to in the lede, I would think it should be RFK, since he's the most notable and highest profile victim in general.

I also think it would be nice to work in something about these being criminal incidents committed by third parties, but couldn't think of a succinct way to state that well so left it as "while representing American interests" for now. As someone noted elsewhere on the talk page, there are plenty of examples where congresspeople were killed in accidents and such, and it's obvious this list isn't meant to include them. But the phrasing as it is doesn't really convey that. 99.55.199.47 (talk) 20:52, 10 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Decided to fix it by adding "by assailants." Any complaints? I think the lede gets the point across much more clearly and succinctly now, and the rest of the list speaks for itself. 99.55.199.47 (talk) 20:55, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Added pic of Ben F. Jensen to his article
I dug up a Fair Use pic of Jensen from FindaGrave for his article; we can't work up a justification to use it in this article though, can we? MatthewVanitas (talk) 04:56, 12 January 2011 (UTC)


 * From a message that I left for Titoxd ... Anyway, I agree with what you said. However I did a little digging in regard to the photo. If you go to File:Benfjensen.jpg, it says it came from Benton Franklin "Ben" Jensen (1892 - 1970) - Find A Grave Memorial. However, if you click on the photo there, it goes to Benton Franklin "Ben" Jensen (1892 - 1970) -Find A Grave Photos, which says that the photo comes from "1959's "Pocket Congressional Directory of the Eighty-Sixth Congress."" and if you look at Congressional Pictorial Directory, it is clear that the Pocket Congressional Directories (which is what the Congressional Pictoral Directories used to be called) were US Government published works. Therefore, as best as I can tell, this picture is in the public domain. Is this good enough?Naraht (talk) 22:02, 13 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I took another look at the Ben F. Jensen picture today and found out it was public domain, not fair use and changed the license info accordingly. Titoxd removed the image from this article before I edited the license summary for the image. I'll inform Titoxd on his talk page. – Zntrip 22:25, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Ref. column
Just want to bring this up here. The Ref column was removed, and I replaces it with the edit summary "re-instal "ref" columns, as the refs are for all facts in row, not just the last one." I have created a few Featured Lists and a "Notes" or "Ref" column is something they usually ask for there. I will not revert again (per WP:EDITWARRING), but instead build a consensus here. --Found5dollar (talk) 14:20, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Article name
This article has changed names about 5 times in the past 3 days. Please discus here any future name changes. The current name is way longer than it has to be. "List of United States Congress Members killed or wounded in office.--Found5dollar (talk) 14:24, 12 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Not to make the name jump around any more than it has, but to draw distinction from the purely assassination article, and to keep from straying into suicide and accidents whilst focusing on the area of interest "people trying to kill congressmen", we could go with the title "List of members of the United States Congress attacked while in office" or similar. MatthewVanitas (talk) 21:45, 13 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think added "attacked" to the title works for all the incidents included within. A duel isn't an attack and three are listed. I think any clarification should take place in the lead section. – Zntrip 21:52, 13 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Ok, so, i re-read WP:LISTNAME and took a few points from it...
 * 1) The term "List of" does not need to be in the title of this article as there is no other page about this subject.
 * 2) "The title is not expected to contain a complete description of the list's subject. "


 * In conclusion, how about some thing along the lines of "United States Congress members killed or wounded in office" or something even shorter. --Found5dollar (talk) 22:58, 13 January 2011 (UTC)


 * That's a good title. The only point I'd like to make is that maybe the word "members" should appears before "Congress" because the phrase "Congress members" is often linked to members of the House of Representatives. Therefore, although "Members of the United States Congress killed or wounded in office" or alternatively, "United States members of Congress killed or wounded in office", is longer in length, it is more precise. Regardless, this isn't a contentious point, and Found5dollar's proposed article name is completely acceptable. – Zntrip 23:23, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Still seems like an inaccurate title. I would suggest "United States Congress members as casualties of violence". Boneyard90 (talk) 14:30, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Are we counting accidents now too?
All props to Found5dollar and his substantial additions, but in the case of Paul Husting who was killed in a hunting accident, is that not straying a bit from the intent here? Me personally, I'm fine with the ones wounded/killed in duels, in battle, and by crazies, but pure accidents where there was no malicious intent seem to be pushing the definition. Thoughts? MatthewVanitas (talk) 22:04, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I am just going down this list and adding any Congress member killed by another person while in office. yes, it was not politically motivated, but he was killed while in office. --Found5dollar (talk) 23:26, 12 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The lede clearly mentions "assailant", and I think that clear accidents are getting away from the primary issue of interest: people (whether crazy or ideological) killing politicians. Ignoring "assailant" takes us in the direction of counting car accidents and the like, and a slippery slope down to heart attacks and other such things more suited to ... died in office . MatthewVanitas (talk) 23:54, 12 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I think the list should only include individuals killed, either directly or indirectly, by other individuals, whether intentionally or otherwise. That's pretty much what's included in the list at this time. I don't think suicides, accidents, or natural deaths should be included. I'm not too sure about including Paul Husting, though, because it appears to be an accident. If his brother was driving a car instead of holding a gun, I don't think we would include his death in this article. – Zntrip 00:00, 13 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I am fine with what ever the consensus is when it comes to Husting, but here is one last addition, Thomas D. Schall. He was killed in a Hit and Run. Should he be included?--Found5dollar (talk) 00:04, 13 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I would include Schall because there is no way to determine if it was accidental or not, while I would not include Husting because it appears to be accidental. – Zntrip 03:58, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorting
So the lists are getting long enough that sorting is going to be a necessity soon. I tried my hand at it, but i am over my head. I will go ask for help, but for now i have created a sandbox at User:Found5dollar/Revision history of List of members of the United States Congress killed or wounded in office. Fell free to try out stuff there. --Found5dollar (talk) 18:36, 13 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's possible to use sorting in a table that uses "rowspan". – Zntrip 21:18, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It is by using linked, hidden, sort keys... I just cant get all the lines of code right. If you have any other ideas on how to get sorting in, by all means, try them.--Found5dollar (talk) 22:32, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Debate Turned Physical
Re: Charles Sumner assaulted by Preston Brooks on Senate floor in 1856: Sometime in the 1960s, Strom Thurmond (R, SC) wrestled Ralph Yarborough (D, Tex) and pinned him to the Senate cloakroom floor in an attempt to dissuade him from voting for something of which Thurmond disapproved. Thurmond eventually released Yarborough. Neither senator was injured. In fact, both lived to be quite old. Someone may want to research this. WHPratt (talk) 14:29, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Help requested at related article Firearms by assassination
I started a new article that might be of some crossover interest: Firearms by assassination. I argue the topic is notable as the technical details of these killings are often encountered in reliable sources, so there is some utility of organising the means by which historic attacks were carried out. This little stub I started here turned amazing with the efforts of other editors interested in this topic, so posting here on the off-chance that a couple of you might like to contribute to this new article. MatthewVanitas (talk) 01:37, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Peer Review implementation
I had this article peer reviewed, and i will be implementing the majority of the suggestions in the upcoming days. If anyone has any issues with what I do, or the peer review win general, please post here. On the other hand, if you want to help out, that would be great too! --Found5dollar (talk) 03:03, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Charles Sumner's Party in 1856
I'm working my way through a biography of Sumner on Google Books, and at least in the initial scan, I can't tell what party he was at the time of the beating. He was elected by a coalition of Free-Soilers and Democrats (opposed by the Whigs and some democrats), but what party he was at the time of his election and what party that he was by the time of the beating, I'm still working on. He did change parties several times in his life.Naraht (talk) 19:54, 26 April 2011 (UTC)


 * During the 34th Congress (which was in session when Sumner was attacked in 1856), Sumner was a member of the Free Soil Party. – Zntrip 23:20, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Frank L. Greene
Should Frank L. Greene be added to the list of wounded? Also, should we split this list into two articles? one for killed, one for wounded?--Found5dollar (talk) 22:33, 9 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think Greene should be added. Accidents in general shouldn't be included in the interest of keeping the list narrow in scope. Also, I don't see a real need to split the article. – Zntrip 22:54, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Mickey Leland
mickey leland died while on a mission to africa. he was the lastest congressman to die, and you forgot him

 ! Mickey Leland ! style="background: " | ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.180.155.33 (talk • contribs) 03:58, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * align="center" | Texas (18th)
 * align="center" | August 7, 1989
 * In 1989 Leland died in a plane crash in Gambela, Ethiopia during a mission to Fugnido, Ethiopia. A total of fifteen people, including Leland, died in the crash.
 * }
 * }


 * Mickey Leland was killed in an accident. This list includes only those members who have been maliciously attacked. – Zntrip 04:53, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Grace Meng
Grace Meng was mugged and slightly injured recently, per the Washington Post. I kind of feel that it's not a serious enough injury to be listed here, but I'm open to other opinions. -LtNOWIS (talk) 11:26, 21 November 2013 (UTC)


 * The list includes only instances in which members of Congress have been maliciously killed by others or have survived attempts on their lives. I don't want to sound flippant, as this particular attack does sound quite serious, but I don't see any evidence that the mugger(s) purpose was anything other than robbery. – Zntrip 01:45, 22 November 2013 (UTC)


 * You all included Rand Paul who was tackled by a neighbor. The least you can do is remove Rand Paul or include Grace Meng who was actually injured in a robbery. – random 28, March 2019 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.242.255.37 (talk) 13:56, 28 March 2019 (UTC)

Stanbery and Houston
William Stanbery and Sam Houston. Should either or both of these men be included in the injured section? from Stanbery's wiki page, "Infuriated, Houston later confronted him on Pennsylvania Avenue as he left Mrs. Queen's boardinghouse and beat Stanbery with a hickory cane. Stanbery did manage to draw one of his pistols, place it at Houston's chest and pull the trigger, but it misfired." --Found5dollar (talk) 02:14, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Alexander Stephens
Is there some reason why Alexander Stephens is omitted from this list? As detailed elsewhere in Wikipedia, he was stabbed and nearly killed by Judge Cone, who objected to Stephens' action on the Clayton Compromise. I'd make the edit, but I'm not sufficiently skilled in the code for tables (especially since a new color would need to be added for the Whig Party). Iglew (talk) 07:02, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Do you have a reference link to this? Timmccloud (talk) 16:42, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I just looked into this and it does seem that it should be included in this list. I have a few reliabl sources and will add him to the list. --Found5dollar (talk) 20:20, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

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