Talk:List of Wild Arms 2 characters

Untitled
Can someone please tell me, why was the last three names submitted here was re-arranged?, the list isn't even in order and yet someone felt they needed it to look in a certain way, it was okay as it is, i just want to know.


 * I felt that Ashley's home town friends should be grouped together and Lombardia should be at the bottom. - The Norse 15:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)


 * oh, well, thank you for your response

Fair use images
The issue in this article needs to be addressed and discussed specifically and nuancefully instead of how it's been dismissed without it. Please see my comments in its edit history and my complaint at User talk:Betacommand. Let us please continue the discussion here. - Gilgamesh 17:17, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Non-free images in list are not allowed en mass. If you want images for characters please create individual articles for them. βcommand 21:42, 12 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Hm, I didn't know that. And the mass removals without discussion were alarming.  I noticed you removed all the images from Characters of Final Fantasy VI, which I thought were reasonably safe.  If they are inappropriately placed, then I suppose I have no argument here.  I'm not super-active on Wikipedia anymore, and this seemed to swoop down out of nowhere.  And, to be honest, some of the fair use rules (especially the newer ones) are rather confusing to read.  If this is policy-level, the clearest jist of the policy should be outlined for quick scanning, I should think...  I have never been good with copyright rules (copyleft is easy for me though), and working with copyright can seem overly complicated at times.  I'm no lawyer. - Gilgamesh 00:39, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I need to say that it needs to be understood that this article is not like an episode entry of a TV series or a multi-game story. As with the Final Fantasy series, each Wild Arms series game has a self-contained world, story and characters, with only the vaguest of overlap. (Marivel Armitage, a playable character in Wild Arms 2, appears only as an in-game storybook character in Wild Arms 3 as if she is fictional in that universe.) Compare Characters of Final Fantasy VI, whose characters and story are unique to that game, and whose article has always been illustrated with images to show the appearance of each character. This is important in RPG character articles&mdash;mere descriptions (e.g. "he is tall, muscular, blond, has a scar") are still too interpretable and not really enough. This said, the images I used are already very low resolution, show each character perfectly, are used only once in these articles (once per character in this article), and are very appropriately placed. They were very small TIM image data dumps from the PlayStation game itself. They were darkened to have a maximum light color of #787878, so I used Paint Shop Pro to stretch each color so that the maximum is twice as bright at #F0F0F0 (essentially white). This seems far simpler and more preferable than using scans of game promotional art at higher resolutions. I believe that this is very appropriate fair use, and have even tried to edit the image description articles to further clarify fair use criteria and point to their single uses at this article. If we can afford this for other RPGs with unique casts of characters, we can afford it here. - Gilgamesh 17:17, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

By the way, this article has been in full edit protection for more than a month and there has been little in the way of discussion since then. Wouldn't it at least make sense to downgrade edit protection so that established users can edit it? - Gilgamesh 09:34, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


 * see User:Durin/Fair use overuse explanation βcommand 16:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * THANK YOU FOR CHIMING IN WITH THAT, BETACOMMAND! I mean, what could we do without a link to a dead user's convoluted wall of text regarding an argument that's been irrelevent for weeks?! Oh right, still nothing because admins won't unlock the article! - The Norse 23:06, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Norse, that honestly isn't helping, please calm down. Betacommand, I understand the issues involved.  There was a period when talk had tapered off here, and it has been recently readdressed.  Aren't we encouraged to talk these things out civilly?  Now that we're talking (and the eight images removed have since been deleted anyway), I do not believe the page needs protecting anymore.  And we've been discussing ideas of how to usefully use fair use images in an informative manner without using eight on a page as we did before.  Could we please be allowed to continue working on this article now? - Gilgamesh 07:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm almost positive that Betacommand isn't human, look at its responses to things. That last one he made was completely irrelevent. It's like Wikipedia's version of SmarterChild. - The Norse 23:29, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I once confused him for a bot too, but he's not a bot. I think he's just really busy and doesn't typically give discussions his undivided attention.  Besides, he didn't place the page under protection to begin with, but I haven't yet heard back from the user who did. - Gilgamesh 23:53, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Alkivar? Yeah I contacted him once, he blanked his talk page and said he didn't care. Gotta love 'em admins. - The Norse 00:00, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment on this argument
The argument from the people trying to remove the images appears to be based on NFCC point 3, minimal use. However, they're coming at this from a completely superficial perspective. There is much more to consider when dealing with "minimal use" than simply the number of image files being used. Since the copyrighted material being illustrated here is the character designs, it wouldn't matter if you used less image files to show them. So long as there were still portrayals of all the same character designs, the extent of use (which is the far more significant requirement) would be completely identical.

The use of 8 images on this article to illustrate 8 different significant elements is minimal use, both numerically and in extent. It is a minimal number of images per subject (1 for each), and showing only the specific parts of the copyrighted work (the character designs) that are being illustrated, thus using the smallest amount of the copyrighted material possible. Something like a promotional art groupshot would probably fail in the latter regard by containing other character designs besides simply those we were trying to illustrate, which would actually increase the extent of use.

Also, splitting the article up into pages for the individual characters would be a violation of WP:FICT. --tjstrf talk 19:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * One thing I would question is the necessity of an image for "Anastasia Valeria". Judging by her description, she doesn't seem like she's that important to the game, so is having an image of her actually significantly helpful? If not, that one should probably go. (Same question for the wolf guy.) --tjstrf talk 19:57, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Anastasia is probably more important to the plot than any of the other characters, no one's gotten around to typing a decent character description though. Lucied's image is questionable though, his only importance is that he's a recurring background character in almost every Wild Arms game. - 66.189.62.195 13:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I ripped the images, uploaded them, and embedded them in this article to begin with. I honestly would have liked to see the images stay, and I think they were appropriately placed and contextually helpful. However, if there is a consensus-level policy decision that prefers they not be used in this fashion, I'm not going to go against policy just because I want the images to stay. I wonder if there is an alternative way to portray in the images...such as with highly-detailed fanart that an artist uploads to Wikimedia Commons with a Commons-compatible license. The images then would not be copyrighted, but would they still be considered above the copyright of the artist because of the characters they portray? I'm unfamiliar with the nuances here, though I certainly cannot agree with an absolutely minimalist position and the inconceivably broad restriction it demands. That kind of common sense is exactly what brought about fair use laws. But I guess not all countries have fair use provisions... How is something like this settled? - Gilgamesh 09:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The only way for images to be in the article would be to paste them all together into a big image. For whatever reason individual images aren't allowed to convey a single article's subject. Also, I too would like this unlocked. - The Norse 15:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I could do that. I could even give them name captions. - Gilgamesh 02:48, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Typo
Please fix this typo. It should be appearance, not appearence. Clerks. 17:42, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. Clerks. 15:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation
Could it be possible to disambiguate RPG to Role-playing game? Tatrgel 20:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)