Talk:List of accidents and incidents involving commercial aircraft/Archive 2

KAL 902 and KAL 801
Both flights have Wikipedia articles but are not on the by-year list. Otherwise, this is a great resource. -- OK, after trying out the sandbox, I added these to the list. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.164.138.57 (talk &bull; contribs) 09:09, 6 May 2005 (UTC).

CONTINENTAL 11
There also is no entry or article for Continental Flight 11, which went down 5/22/1962. See http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3071576 -- For accident information from 1943 on when the date is known, see http://aviation-safety.net/database/ --OK, I added this to the list as well.

March 1, 1960
The incident added (on May 20) for this date does not show up in the Aviation Safety Network's database. Simesa 22:30, 20 May 2005 (UTC) -- This crash actually occurred March 1, 1962 - moved to 1962, and will create a stub article.

Death toll is not accurate
Since the accidents here are only small part of the accidents which took place every year, the given death toll is absolutely misleading. For example, look at that page about the year 2000. Besides, that lack of comprehensiveness should be noted explictly SHASHAZ 10:34, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I have removed the death tolls. PBP 19:44, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

Significane of crashes
Should the following crashes really be listed on this page? These are all listed under the "2005" section. If we inclulded every crash that killed 2 to 10 people, a small number for an airline crash, then there'd be thousands of additions to this page. What makes these crashes in 2005 special?


 * 1) January 13 - A Tura Air Enterprise Antonov An-2 airplane crashes in Tura, Russia wile landing in bad weather conditions, killing all seven passengers and two crewmembers.
 * 2) February 10 - An Action Air Express, Inc. Cessna P210N airplane crashed into a mountain during turbulence near Lebec, California. Both the pilot and the single passenger died.
 * 3) March 26 - A West Caribbean Airways L-410 crashed into a hill killing six of the 12 passengers and the two crewmembers. (See West Caribbean Airways for more information.)
 * 4) May 4 - A Kisangani Airlift Antonov An-26 airplane crashed after it’s engine hit a tree all five crewmembers died, but one of the six passengers survived.
 * 5) May 16 - A chartered Transportes Aereos Don Carlos Beech 65-A80 Queenaire aircraft crashed a few minutes after taking off from El Portezulo, Argentina killing all nine passengers and the pilot.
 * 6) June 2 - A Marsland Aviation Antonov AN-24B's engine caught on fire during takeoff. The plane crashed at the end of the runway in Khartoom, Sudan. Three of the 36 passengers died.
 * 7) August 10 - A Copterline Sikorsky S-76C+ helicopter crashed in the ocean off of Tallinn, Estonia is windy conditions. All onboard, 12 passengers and two crewmembers were killed. (Is a helicopter, not an airliner)
 * 8) September 5 - A Kavatshi Airlines Antonov 26B cargo airplane crashed into a tree and caught on fire during foggy weather while landing at Isiro, Congo, Democratic Republic of the. Everyone on board, four crewmembers and three passengers, died. PBP 21:48, 22 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Why not? The page isn't called "List of accidents and incidents on commercial airliners that were in the news grouped by year." – Zntrip 17:54, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Then why not add every crash with fatalities since air travel began? What makes these ones from 2005 special? PBP 18:23, 1 October 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, first of all, all the accidents are happened on commercial aircraft. And I didn't say they were special, I'm just saying this page has a stupid long name; what accidents should be on this page? – Zntrip 05:09, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


 * "OK, first of all, all the accidents are happened on commercial aircraft". Well, no. Charters might not be considered "commercial". If they are, why is the van Zant accident included, but Ritchie Valens & Stevie Ray Vaughn left off? Trekphiler 21:07, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

No crashes listed for 1952. Here is one.
If the following effort is good enough, someone can copy and paste it to the main page in the currently empty 1952 section.

Date: 26 May 1952 A 4-engined Hermes aircraft operated by BOAC with 10 passengers aboard, crash-landed in the Sahara, 1,300 miles off-course on a flight between London and Accra, Ghana. All passengers and crew survived the initial crash landing, but the First Officer later died of injuries sustained in the crash. Source on web: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/archaeology/gallery_desert_rescue.shtml


 * 404'd on the article, can you find another source?

Troy88 18:14, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Should be http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/archaeology/excavations_techniques/gallery_desert_rescue.shtmlLeadSongDog (talk) 15:31, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The selection of flights here is random.
The seletion of flights here is random, with no apparent rationale. Tempshill 23:01, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Maybe the title should be moved to List of major accidents and incidents on commercial airliners . . . Ydorb 21:57, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Airline crashes
I propose that we remove the following crashes from the 2005 list:


 * January 13 – A Tura Air Enterprise Antonov An-2 airplane crashes in Tura, Russia while landing in bad weather conditions, killing all seven passengers and two crewmembers.
 * February 10 – An Action Air Express, Inc. Cessna P210N airplane crashed into a mountain during turbulence near Lebec, California. Both the pilot and the single passenger died.
 * March 26 – A West Caribbean Airways L-410 crashed into a hill killing six of the 12 passengers and the 2 crewmembers. (See West Caribbean Airways for more information.)
 * April 12 – A GT Air de Havilland Canada DHC-6 Twin Otter airplane crashed in Enarotali, Indonesia killing all of the 15 passengers and 2 crewmembers.
 * April 20 – A Saha Airlines Services Boeing 707 airplane made a hard landing and veered off the runway into the Kan River. Three of the 157 passengers drowned during the evacuation.
 * May 4 – A Kisangani Airlift Antonov An-26 airplane crashed after it’s engine hit a tree all five crewmembers died, but one of the six passengers survived.
 * May 7 – An Aero-Tropics Fairchild Metro III airplane crashed at Lockhart River in Queensland, Australia. All onboard, 13 passengers and 2 crewmembers died. (See Aero-Tropics Air Services for more information.)
 * May 16 – A chartered Transportes Aereos Don Carlos Beech 65-A80 Queenaire aircraft crashed a few minutes after taking off from El Portezulo, Argentina killing all nine passengers and the pilot.
 * May 25 – A chartered Maniema Union Antonov An-28 airplane owned by Victoria Air crashed into a mountain near Walungu Congo about 30 minutes after takeoff. All of the 22 passengers and 5 crewmembers were killed.
 * June 2 – A Marsland Aviation Antonov AN-24B's engine caught on fire during takeoff. The plane crashed at the end of the runway in Khartoom, Sudan.  Three of the 36 passengers died.
 * August 10 – A Copterline Sikorsky S-76C+ helicopter crashed in the ocean off of Tallinn, Estonia is windy conditions. All onboard, 12 passengers and 2 crewmembers were killed.
 * September 5 – A Kavatshi Airlines Antonov 26B cargo airplane crashed into a tree and caught on fire during foggy weather while landing at Isiro, Congo, Democratic Republic of the. Everyone on board, four crewmembers and three passengers, died.
 * September 9 – An Air Kasai Antonov An-26 airplane crashed near Brazzaville Republic of the Congo. All 14 people onboard died.
 * September 16 – A Venezuela Wayumi Air Taxi Cessna 207 Skywagon YV-412C airplane crashed near San Juan de Manapiare, Venezuela, killing all four onboard.
 * September 23 – An Air Taxi Aerospatiale AS-350BA helicopter crashed into a body of water near Haena, Hawaii, United States. Three people, of the six onboard died.
 * October 30 – A Trade Air Let 410UVP-E19A crashed near Bergamo, Italy shortly after takeing off. All three aboard were killed.
 * November 8 – Am AirNow Embraer 110P1 Bandeirante crashed in Manchester New Hampshire. The plane crashed into a Wal-Mart garden center after takeoff from Manchester Airport.  The only person onboard, the pilot survived.
 * November 11 – A Royal Airlines Cargo Ilyushin IL-76MD airplane flew into the side of a mountain near Khah-e Shahidan, Afghanistan. All ten aboard were killed.
 * November 18 – A Blancaneau Lodge Britten-Norman BN-2A-21 Islander crashed near Privacion, Belize. The aircraft was en route from Belize City to Blancaneau.  All three onboard were killed.
 * November 19 – An Ivolga Avia Cessna 208B Grand Caravan I airplane crashed during a landing attempt near Stupino, Russia. The crash is blamed on bad weather.  All of the eight people onboard died.

I'm not saying these crashes weren't "important," with respect to those who died, I'm saying they're not especially notable. I notice that 2005 is the only year where relatively minor crashes are listed, presumably because someone decided to put in every crash they hear about on the news. We would keep listings like Air France Flight 358 or the JetBlue one because, if you read the articles, you'll find out why they're notable. There is another reason, too&mdash;some of the these crashes are of helicopters. PBP 01:54, 7 December 2005 (UTC)


 * OK, I don't mind getting rid of them, but I propose the following:

That’s all I ask, until then I think that all the entries should remain until we sort through them. – Zntrip 04:59, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * 1 — The name of the article be changed, it is too long and it should reflect the content of the article.
 * 2 — A standard should be set to decide witch items should be on this article.


 * Perhaps "Commercial airline incidents grouped by year." I think "incidents" is broad enough to cover times when airliners crashed and times when they didn't. As to the criteria, that's a more difficult question. Perhaps some more feedback from others would help... PBP 03:20, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I like that new name; how about just "List commercial aircraft incidents?" After all this is the most comprehensive list of commercial aircraft incidents on Wikipedia. – Zntrip 04:35, 11 December 2005 (UTC)


 * That would work. I wish there was some input from others, though, so we don't get attacked for such a move... PBP 04:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree. Unless there are other lists of accidents and incidents on commercial airliners, this one needn't be named "grouped by year". I say be bold and rename this page. I tried to do the move but found List of accidents and incidents on commercial airliners already exists. It was a redirect to Accidents and incidents in aviation. I changed that to redirect here since a "list" should redirect to a "list". I say we should have an administrator move this one there. —BenFrantzDale 17:09, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * What other lists could there be? Grouped by airline? Grouped by country? Airline articles should have a list of significant accidents as part of the article. The country of crash is often arbitrary, or non-existent when over oceans. Be bold. --Jumbo 17:16, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * As for criteria, Accidents and incidents in aviation practically begins with a definititon of the term from the US NTSB. It might be worth copying that definition to this page to clarify fo rpeople about to add things. —BenFrantzDale 17:15, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The problem is that in some post-WWII years there were 50 accidents or more worldwide which would fall under the current NTSB criteria for serious accidents. Aviation has become much safer in the past 20 years, and I think it's misleading to see so many accidents listed for recent years and so few listed for earlier ones. One might assume that commercial aviation was more dangerous now rather than safer. --Charlene.vickers 22:20, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
 * This isn't really a problem. It's probably more of a function of access to research material. More recent crashes are more visible, but for (say) 1948, you'd have to go digging. Which leads me to suggest that if you see the imbalance as a problem, then the remedy is in your hands!
 * But we can all help in writing up the work and improving WP. Divide up the workload for individual crashes. At the bare minimum, just fill in the crash template and mark it as a stub. It might also be useful to expand the list into a more comprehensive data based analysis showing numbers of crashes per year, numbers of fatalities and so on. --Jumbo 00:07, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Is there a separate listing of significant commercial accidents which took place before 1945? I can think of and have references to five off the top of my head. Might they be added here? --Charlene.vickers 22:20, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

This page seems to suggest that 2005 has been an incredibly deadly year for airline travel. Is this true, or are accidents from other years just under-represented?


 * I think because of the expanded popularity of Wikipedia, and because of more media sources reporting crashes, people are now adding every crash they hear about on the news. The incidents I listed above are ones I'm pretty sure we can delete, but User:Zntrip believes they are worth keeping until a consensus is reached on a new page. I've actually just gotten rid of a few helicopter ones and two or three other minor crashes. PBP 02:36, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Uh... I'm not that conserned about those crashes, I just think that the page name should be shorter and there should be a standerd for the things included on the page. – Zntrip 04:38, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Proposal for page restructuring
There are some really great ideas here, and I think we can really improve this page. How about this:
 * Rename this page to List of accidents and incidents on commercial airliners. If you take the NTSB definition of incident and accident, they are two separate things - so while omitting accidents from the title (as suggested by Zntrip) would be shorter, I think it's not quite right and might cause confusion as to what the article is about (see below). Yes, I know that this page title already exists, we'll have to ask an admin to do it.
 * Add the definition of accident and incident to the top of this page (copy from Accidents and incidents in aviation) so that we're clear what we're talking about.
 * Include any event that matches these definitions on a commercial flight (so air taxis and light aircraft don't count). A runway overrun counts, a man shot while boarding a plane (such as Flight 924) doesn't. Sort by year (and date) as is currently the case. Go back as far as you need to (so it's perfectly okay to put in events that meet these criteria before 1945, to answer Charlene.vickers's question)
 * Try to include one or two sentences about each flight, such as: what kind of plane was it, where did the event occur (don't forget to include the country if it isn't blatantly obvious), information on casualties/damage, and causes. A link to a reference (such as what contributors have done for the Dec 8 2005 and Dec 10 2005 events), if there is one, would be great.


 * As concerns the other lists (by location, by airline), I would suggest we apply the same criteria and add pretty much the same information as this list (although I would venture to say that this list here is probably the most used one, so should get the highest visibility - hence the more succinct title)

I agree with Jumbo that the large number of recent crashes on this page is only because it's easier to get material on them, and people tend to write them up as they happen. I don't see this as a problem - people write what they know - but as an invitation for us to go digging for earlier crashes and add them! :)

Opinions? Comments? Suggestions? Flames? :) I'll probably go ahead and do something like this soon (and face the music afterwards... :)), but any input is of course great. &mdash; QuantumEleven | (talk) 10:43, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Some good ideas, but I feel that the "air taxis and light aircraft don't count" is going to be a stumbling block. To solve this, how about drafting in some of Wikipedia's own guidelines, and make this page only list those accidents that have or should have an article on WIkipedia (i.e. notable and encyclopedic ones), which is then linked to? (possibly rename to 'list of articles on accidents and incidents...' etc.) It'd cut out all the unremarkable 'four people in a light aircraft' stuff. --Scott Wilson 14:17, 16 December 2005