Talk:List of alumni of Wesley College, Melbourne

Move Page
Someone Should Move This Page and rename it "List of Old Wesley Collegians"58.175.154.6 (talk) 11:27, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Just noticed this message, i also agree that this page should be renamed: "List of Old Wesley Collegians". Can other editors please state their opinions.Sheepunderscore (talk) 06:38, 8 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I strongly disagree. The current title explicitly identifies the school in question.  With several instances of "Wesley College" across the world, the term "Old Wesley Collegians" is ambiguous - which Wesley?  For example, alumni of Wesley College, Perth are also called "Old Wesley Collegians".  I would rather turn attention to
 * 1. Keeping this list to a concise list of genuinely notable alumni - as a guide, someone who would pass Wiki notability in their own right. There seems to be a push towards making this list as long as possible.  Adding names of transient radio announcers and alumni who have scraped into state sporting teams weakens the list and is a disservice to prime ministers and other genuinely notable alumni.  I seem to get the impression from editing behaviour that there seems to be some one-upmanship in this, to make Wesley's list longer than other schools. This is to be actively discouraged.
 * 2. Where possible, references should be obtained and quoted that actually prove that the person actually attended the school. Murtoa (talk) 04:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

It's a list of alumni. A school which has been around since 1865 and which now has 3000 current students may deserve a fair list. Significance is somewhat subjective. I haven't actually looked at other school lists of alumni when adding names. There were a few people who were decorated with honours which I included, and a few folk in the arts. The original list of alumni only included those who went to the school before 1950 or so (based on Geoffrey Blainey's centenary history). Since that history there have been a few more names - added here more for thoroughness than for gainsay. I don't think the list should be reserved for those in "Who's Who" or for the deceased. The real danger is that the OWCA organization is changing dramatically and a knowledge of notables may well be lost to those now running the OWCA. The Old Wesley Collegians Association was founded circa 1890. As to the existence of Wesley Colleges other than in Melbourne, and their alumni lists, I agree to disambiguation. StephenSmith (talk) 16:50, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that the size of the school may suggest that the list be longer than others, but there has to be some reasonable test of significance, or dare I say it notability. Wikipedia has some sensible means of determining this, such as coverage of the individual in reliable, independent, third-party sources.  For that reason, I'm not a fan of dragging information out of Wesley's Lion magazine and regurgitating it here.  For example, I would argue that collegians who got to the position of MD of a company is in itself not remarkable.  I don't believe Wikipedia should be playing the role as backup for OWCA in case they don't have their act together, particularly if this is a driver for further expansion at the expense of notability.  Happy to debate further!  Murtoa (talk) 11:17, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree that MDs of companies may not in themselves be notable, except for philanthropists like Graeme Samuel who holds multiple humanitarian and business roles. I certainly wasn't using Wesley's The Lion as a source for my inclusions, but The Lion is a reputable source for verification, in that it exists in printed and online forms, and originates at the school. My inclusions were largely those who held major military roles, or Professorial roles in education, or those who have received "gongs" (Order of Australia Awards or similar decorations for their efforts or achievements), or those who have a high media profile over a number of decades in the Australian media (which I guess points more to celebrity than notability). The OWCA keeps an extensive database, but this list has been compiled by multiple people from multiple sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by StephenSmith (talk • contribs) 19:35, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

Cleaning up the article
User:Orangemike has appended a clean-up tag to the article and his inline editing comments have provided some guidance towards improving the quality of this article. In particular, he has pointed to the convention that entries in this list should be restricted to subjects that have an existing wiki article. On enquiry, he has referenced the essay WP:WTAF, which I think provides some worthwhile guidance. For many of the potential entries, I don't think it will be particularly onerous to work up a quick stub article showing their notability, before adding them to this list. Retrospectively I think this should also happen to those already on the list, with the aim that all entries have their own article. If this means that some entries fail on notability grounds, then it will act as a self-correcting mechanism to enhance the quality of the list. I think it's also important that not only should sources be obtained that demonstrate their notability but also demonstrate that they actually attended the school. Murtoa (talk) 02:03, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I will not claim that any of this is original with me. These are pretty much the standard rules for such lists: 1. Is this person notable enough for a Wikipedia article; 2. If so, link to that article. 2a. If there is no article, then write the article before you add them to a list. 3. What's your source for asserting that they attended this school? Where's your footnote? I have never seen Wesley, or Melbourne, or Oz; but these are the same standards I try to enforce on my own alma mater, the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee (one Prime Minister of Israel, one President of Peru, one neo-Nazi leader: the usual mix). -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  20:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I worked with the OWCA for many years on a voluntary basis, attending reunions at all age levels, and went through Wesley College Melbourne with some of the people on the list. To assert that they must appear in wiki before their name appears in wiki denies the list its own curiosity value, especially given its scope is people with some form of public or historic profile who attended the College. StephenSmith (talk) 14:42, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * That isn't how it works on Wikipedia. This is a list of allegedly encyclopedic value. If somebody isn't notable enough to have an article in Wikipedia about them, then they don't belong on a list of this sort in Wikipedia ("curiosity value" is not a Wikipedia criterion). If their attendance at Wesley isn't a matter of public record in reliable sources, then they fail our absolute requirement of verifiability. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  18:38, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * There is, of course, no reason why you couldn't license wiki software and set up a WesleyWiki, to which you could apply whatever criteria you chose. -- Orange Mike  &#x007C;   Talk  18:39, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Stephen, I accept your involvement with OWCA, but this list should not be aimed at socialising a long list of interest primarily for the wider Wesley community - that's for the OWCA and the Wesley community to do within its own devices, not this resource. I consider that this list should be constrained to those meriting their own wiki article. My guess is that most of the current list would actually qualify (first one created today for Chris Silagy), although that's for the wiki community to confirm. Murtoa (talk) 10:31, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I've cited my criteria above, and hold no misgivings about inclusion or exclusion of members based on wiki notability criteria. I wasn't out to adulterate, nor inflate. I guess that just because I find an individual's achievements, status, or profile interesting does not necessarily ascribe value to any person. I *was* careful to exclude over 20,000 others, for the sake of brevity of the list ;-) I actually knew Chris Silagy personally, and believe his work with the Cochrane Collaboration, and the fact he was the youngest ever professor of public medicine (Flinders) at age 37 probably makes him noteworthy. StephenSmith (talk) 03:55, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Reason for pruning
I'm taking out those who don't have their own article. Some of these people may be notable, and should be re introduced to the list when an article has been started on them, or a good reliable source found which establishes their notability per Lists of people. If they are notable enough for the list they are notable enough for an article, so an article should be started on them. But at least find a source which establishes them as notable enough for their own Wikipedia article. BE——Critical __Talk 06:06, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree and have done a few myself. I'm quite surprised to see that some on the list don't have an article, although they hold honours. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:34, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I also agree with this and also support the general cleaning up including removal of cross-referencing. Murtoa (talk) 11:31, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
 * A large number of entries without their own article have been re-added. I have removed them on the basis discussed above. Murtoa (talk) 11:56, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

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Russell Broadbent
Federal MP - has been added - but I can't find any evidence he attended Wesley? Murtoa (talk) 22:09, 7 February 2018 (UTC)