Talk:List of animated series with LGBT characters/Archive 2

Missing Entries?
I hope this is the right place to put this. RWBY-> May Marigold -> Trans Woman -> Confimed by Kdin Jenzen ZoeyTheInfernal (talk) 06:37, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Are you asking if you want to add additional characters to the existing list? Because if you want to do, feel free, just add sources for your information. --Historyday01 (talk) 23:44, 24 December 2019 (UTC)


 * WP:RS needed  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) 06:41, 18 December 2019 (UTC)


 * I can't agree more.--Historyday01 (talk) 15:38, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Page size
After inspecting this article, it is quite clear that this page is far too large due to several factors.


 * Inclusion of characters as transgender and genderqueer when this has not been explicitly described. Often this includes characters who only dress or behave like another gender.
 * Overly lengthy descriptions. Much more than necessary is usually written in the notes, especially when the plot is discussed.
 * Inclusion of very minor characters. Given the size of the article, characters that appear once are unlikely to be notable enough for inclusion here.
 * Too many references. While some entries have no references, there are entries which have far too many references. Usually one should be enough.

There are likely other factors here as well, but I would implore editors to improve this article by making reductions in its size that addresses those issues. Onetwothreeip (talk) 02:42, 9 March 2020 (UTC)


 * I generally agree, but I think it can be worth including some minor characters depending on their role in the stories of specific series themselves. I can agree that at times there are too many references, but at other times the amount of references is justified. So, its a balance.Historyday01 (talk) 00:48, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * This page is literally the largest one on Wikipedia. It must be cut down somehow. I do agree that some of the descriptions can be trimmed; such as Princess Bubblegum and Marceline. As for minor characters, I think they should be included only if they played a major role; like that one dude from Homer's Phobia, since the episode was quite significant. We could always separate the article by decade to help trim it. PanagiotisZois (talk) 10:04, 10 March 2020 (UTC)
 * We could do that.Historyday01 (talk) 02:15, 11 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Also, I would add that some descriptions can get too short. I think each description should be a minimum of three sentences long.Historyday01 (talk) 04:18, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Justifying present categorization
As you may have noticed, I reorganized this page again to its previous categorization of identities. I am aware that this is not perfect, but it is better than arguing about "classification." Currently, I am working on adding citations for shows with LGBTQ characters in the 1990s, 2000s, and 2010s. The 1990s one is complete with full sources, while the ones for shows in the 2000s and 2010s need work. Dividing the ones with biggest number of words (especially for the 2000s and 2010s) is justified, as adding them back into this page would unnecessarily clog it. I am open and willing to talk about this further, but ask that if the content is moved back to this page that it be retained in its current form of organized by identity and character debut date. The previous method of organizing it by series premiere date was fundamentally flawed, which is why I stuck with these two other forms of organization. Again, you could say that pages like this need work, but I think we have made a good step in the right direction.Historyday01 (talk) 20:53, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Confusion
Although it's great that everyone has worked towards making the article less big, one thing I noticed was how characters that had the same LGBT inclusion were separated by the date they first appeared or when they first mentioned their sexuality. That would be confusing for researchers who are looking for the specific series with characters that are LGBT considering that they would have to look through each month or year, just to find the character. I think it would be best if you place characters that are under the same LGBT umbrella (Lesbian characters, Gay characters etc.) with the same year the show was made.

Example:

Lesbian characters; Year: December 1989; Series: The Simpsons; Characters(s): Patty Bouvier; Country: U.S.

Gay characters; Year: December 1989; Series: The Simpsons; Character(s): Dewley Largo, John, Grady & Julio, Waylon Smithers; Country: U.S.

Transgender characters; Year: December 1989; Character(s): Constance Ham, Brunella P.; Country: U.S.

That way, it would cause less confusion and stress for researchers. Furthermore, it somewhat shortens the article. GlitchyM. (talk) 04:08, 23 March 2020 (UTC)


 * So you noticed correctly that "characters that had the same LGBT inclusion were separated by the date they first appeared or when they first mentioned their sexuality." I understand that it could be confusing for researchers, but not every LGBTQ character premiered in the first episode, which is why I thought it would be better to organize them by debut date. In terms of putting characters "that are under the same LGBT umbrella (Lesbian characters, Gay characters etc.) with the same year the show was made," I'm not sure if organizing them by the date the show was made is the best approach, as that was the previous organization before, and that led to a lot of problems. For instance, a show, like the Simpsons premiered in 1989 but the character premiered in a later season... Any issues with the premiere of characters or anything of the sort can be addressed with the future page on the history of LGBTQ characters in animation. Also, I don't think this episode needs to be shortened, necessarily, as it is already shorter than it was originally thanks to most of the content being spun off to other pages.Historyday01 (talk) 00:26, 11 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I Agree with GlitchyM. As nice as it is to have a more accurate date for the characters themselves, that's not what this article is about. To my understanding, this article is about the shows themselves (primary aspect) and less about the characters in it (secondary aspect). With the way the article is now, sorted by not only orientation but by character premiere date, then the article title needs to be changed to List of LGBTQ characters in Animated Series. That way the premise of the article would shift to presenting information on the characters and less about the show itself. But since the title of the Article is list of animated series with LGBTQ characters, then the information in the table needs to prominently reflect informing readers about the show and less about the characters. So basically what I'm saying is, it doesn't matter if an LGBTQ character starts appearing in season 29 of a show, the table information needs to include the date the show started not necessarily the date the character first appeared. However, because I love the idea of including the character premiere date, not to mention all the work that went into finding all those dates, the characters premiere date could be moved into the notes sections because it is noteworthy information. But I would like that date to be sortable too, so here's an example that uses both series premiere date, and the character premiere date.

I figured this way more people would be happy and less confused. People like GlitchyM and I, who find the same series multiple times on the same table to be confusing, unnecessary, and or repetitive. Also the people who want to know when the characters first appear will be happy because that date would also be included. This way a series would only be on a table once (unless the table is sorted) and each character would get their own section of that shows rows.2605:A000:1301:C9AB:62F6:77FF:FED7:8E8 (talk) 03:26, 30 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I see what you are saying, but I would say that every character deserves their own entry. If this page would be changed, then all the pages associated with it would have to be changed too. The current format allows for editors, like myself, to easily move content from one page, like this one, to List of lesbian characters in anime for example. I would completely support changing the name to "List of LGBTQ characters in Animated Series," a thought I was actually thinking about today. Additionally, I think a series premiere date would be confusing because a series could premiere in 1989, like the Simpsons, but the character didn't come out as gay until 2005 (in the case of Patty). Historyday01 (talk) 03:52, 30 June 2020 (UTC)


 * I get that it would be work, but that's no ones fault other than the editor(s) who changed all the pages to not reflect what the articles are supposed to be about. Just because it will take time and effort, doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. Literally the first sentence of the article is, "This is a list of animated series featuring lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, asexual, genderqueer, and pansexual characters, along with other (LGBTQ+) characters." not "This is a list of LGBTQ+ characters in animation". Until that page is created, this article should reflect the shows information. The characters are minor details within these articles. Make your own page if you want to continue this way. I mean, I get the benefit of having article(s) based around the characters. As a member of the LGBT community, I would love to have pages like this for when I'm looking for this kind of information. But as it stands, until those pages are made, this article need to reflect the proper information, a list of shows and that shows information, not a list of characters and their information. As for transferring information to other pages (which I totally get wanting the ease), this will probably come across a little dickish which I don't mean it to be but the teacher side of me just can't help it, but maybe for the future don't use an article that you've heavily edited/created to fit this format in order to persuade people, it's not really helpful and it's kind of an eye roll situation. Also to note, that page is actually about the characters themselves, not the series they're in. This is an apples to oranges comparison, the two articles are about two different things, one is about the series, the other is about a specific set of LGBT characters. Then there are also the "twin" pages on Wikipedia of this article, i.e. List of comedy television series with LGBT characters, List of dramatic television series with LGBT characters, List of animated films with LGBT characters, List of made-for-television films with LGBT characters, List of graphic art works with LGBT characters, List of reality television programs with LGBT cast members, etc. All these articles follow that same intent as this article is supposed to, a list of series/films/titles/programs and their information. Lastly, I wasn't suggesting changing the name of the article, I was trying to point out how this article has changed into something other than what it's supposed to be. So, please tell me you did not intentionally hijack a series of articles to make a list of LGBT characters in animation instead of just creating its own articles? I mean, you realize that some editor is going to have to come in and basically redo everything in order to make this article reflect its actual intent, right?2605:A000:1301:C9AB:385A:4035:854F:3F16 (talk) 03:24, 7 July 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm totally willing to change the name of the page, which is why I reopened the discussion on this talk page. Historyday01 (talk) 03:52, 7 July 2020 (UTC)


 * This isn't about changing the name of the articles, its about changing the point of the articles. We shouldn't have to change the name of these articles, you should have made a new and separate article for this. I need you to understand that a "List of animated series with LGBT characters" is different than a "List of LGBT character in animation." They present two different sets information, one about the animated series, and the other about the characters. Do get what I'm saying? I need to know so that I can figure out how to approach this conversation. P.S.(Sarcasm) Also, so glad you decided to change the line I referenced in the article to suit your case. (sarcasm over) But seriously, at least it reflects the current version of the article you decided to change completely, so thanks. 2605:A000:1301:C9AB:385A:4035:854F:3F16 (talk) 04:52, 7 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Ok, scratch what I previously said. The page and all the other pages has been changed similar to the format you proposed. Your input is appreciated, as always. I decided to not pursue creating a new set of pages as it would be too much work. Historyday01 (talk) 01:27, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Fascinating to read previous discussions
Just perusing the past discussions of pages merged into this one. 2012 to 2015 was wild. Some declared that Zirkonia in Sailor Moon "is not homo-, bi- or pansexual," denied Bubbline and Korrasami (both confirmed by their respective shows), and deleted a bunch of content. Otherwise, there was always a debate over lack of sourcing. The first archive, in 2017, is lively, with debates on whether to include one-off characters or not, with the same in 2018, complaining that some examples are wrong or not legitimate for some reason, with Glitchy asking people if characters are LGBTQ or not. In 2019, there was a suggested split of the page between Japanese/non-Japanese animation with LGBTQ characters, and arguments that the classification column wasn't needed, and new organization of the page this year by yours truly, not without some debate over that. I admit the current format isn't perfect, but its better than what was there before. I do think what @Ncboy2010 said back in 2012 is still relevant:


 * Each character must be:
 * Individually notable (References are lacking, but could be added. I've removed all unsourced redlinks)
 * From an animated media (Films, TV shows, CGI)
 * Homosexual, Bisexual or Transgender (Explicitly, There should be no "Rumoured" or "Implied")

I would revise it, however, to restrict entries to animated shows, not films or CGI (which would go on the List of animated films with LGBT characters page), that LGBTQ characters, not just those which are gay, bi, and trans should be included. Sometimes you have to go with implied, especially when it comes to anime, although Western cartoons are better. In terms of notability, I would say a general rule of thumb is that the LGBTQ character, to be included on this page or any of the ones split off from it, should interact either with the protagonist (or their friends), be a protagonist or a supporting character of some prominence in the show itself.--Historyday01 (talk) 18:50, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Regarding the last part, I'd say only main characters or recurring ones should be included. According to Wikipedia's rules, a character is recurring if they appear in 4 episodes and more. (Granted, it's not always easy to identify which characters in an animated series are main ones, since they don't have cast lists like live-action shows) Guest starts (3 episodes and less) are an issue. I guess they should definitely be included if they were "culturally significant"; like John from "Homer's Phobia". PanagiotisZois (talk) 19:19, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * @PanagiotisZois, perhaps, but I think there are some exceptions to that, like Matoko Goldberg in Neo Yokio who appears in only a couple episodes, but Lexy, a friend of the protagonist, Kaz, who has been transformed into a woman, calls her the "hottest lesbian on Long Island" and kisses her (noted on the 2015-2019 list). She later reappears in the special for the show too, although she has a non-speaking part at that point. If there was a page for one-off or minor LGBTQ characters (less than three or four times in an episode), or something, in animation, that would be great, titled something like "List of one-off LGBT characters in animation" as one user posed back in 2017. Unfortunately, that, using the model of what happened to the page for the Simpsons with one-off characters, would probably just be deleted, which would be bad. Such a page could serve as a sort of overflow for characters that don't fall under those guidelines, like the List of animated series with crossdressing characters page.


 * On the other hand, as @Tarage said back in 2017 (its on the Archive 1 page), "making a list of one-off LGBT characters again fails to play to the purpose of this encyclopedia: to be encyclopedic," adding that "creating a separate list runs counter to that...at the base of this are the characters themselves." Interestingly, they later added in another discussion, "I'd rather condense the list and only have people who are actually LGBT rather than one-offs and joke characters." I agree with joke characters, but where will these one-off characters go? TV Tropes says that a "one-shot or one-off character is a character which "appears in only one episode of a series, after which they are never seen again." The recurring characters page on here is pretty vague at how "recurring" is defined, not defining it by a number, although it is implied they appear three-plus times if distinguished from guest stars:

A recurring character or supporting character is a fictional character, usually in a prime time TV series, who frequently appears from time to time during the series' run. Recurring characters often play major roles in more than one episode, sometimes being the main focus. They may be contrasted with "regular" characters, who typically appear in every or almost every episode of a series. Recurring characters appear less frequently than regulars, but more frequently than guest star characters, who may appear in only one or two episodes without being expected to return.


 * By the argument on that page, Goldberg would count as a guest star character or as a recurring character. Perhaps there could be an additional column noting if the character is recurring, a guest star, or one off? That's my thinking instead of creating a new page.Historyday01 (talk) 20:59, 9 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Update: I did look through the pages in the Wikipedia rules about lists, and didn't find anything about recurring characters at first glance, where you said that "according to Wikipedia's rules, a character is recurring if they appear in 4 episodes and more." If you could provide the link to the specific rule, that would be great. I'm just not finding it.Historyday01 (talk) 21:35, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Turns out I might have been somewhat wrong about the number 4. I definitely remembered it being from Wikipedia, but it turns out to be from the season 1 page of Jessica Jones. If you go to edit the character list, a hidden note states that recurring characters appear in 4 and more episodes. It's likely such stuff also exists on other pages, but given the rules you provided above, it's likely just a user (or users) making that rule up. PanagiotisZois (talk) 12:23, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok, good to know. But, I do generally agree with what you are saying about the characters having to be prominent enough in the show.Historyday01 (talk) 00:08, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah. For example, Ai no Kusabi has various gay / bi men in it, but how many are actually integral and worthy of mention? That's a process that will take quite some time to figure out. PanagiotisZois (talk) 11:06, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Good point. Not sure off hand, as I haven't seen the series yet. Luckily, most of the series I have seen have LGBTQ characters which appear in multiple eps, so its generally fine.Historyday01 (talk) 12:40, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
 * As a further note here, @PanagiotisZois, I'm planning to create pages like List of fictional gay characters and List of fictional bisexual characters (maybe create a redirect for List of fictional bi characters) based the format I've put in place on the List of fictional lesbian characters and List of fictional trans characters pages. Luckily there is already a List of television series with bisexual characters page, although with gay characters it may take longer, as the Bara (genre), Gay pulp fiction, Slash fiction, Gay teen fiction, Yaoi, and Gay literature pages don't have any lists which can easily be adapted to a list page, other than the List of yaoi anime and manga. --Historyday01 (talk) 15:26, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Dude, you are on fire. I can offer some (admittedly, very minor) help. If you go at my Sandbox1, you can find many bisexual characters from films. They're not much, but it's a start. PanagiotisZois (talk) 15:32, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks! @PanagiotisZois, I'll look at your sandbox and incorporate that into an upcoming article. I was actually surprised that there is no list of gay characters or even bisexual characters. The only reason I can think that the pages weren't created is because there were so many characters that no one wanted to go to the effort of bringing them all together? Also, there probably aren't as many gay editors on Wikipedia. Historyday01 (talk) 16:45, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, considering gays are a minority in general, I'm guessing this translates to editors. Lol. But I think it might also have to do with practicality. To put this into perspective, asexuality is a relatively "new" sexual idenity, and there aren't all that many asexual characters, in general, across all media. Thus, a list of fictional asexual characters does make sense, especially since it won't be very big. Conversely, multiple film, shows, novels, etc. have characters in them that identify as lesbians, so that's probably why such a lsit wasn't made [by you :)] until very recently. Because a list like that would end up being huge. PanagiotisZois (talk) 17:25, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * That was my thought too. Exactly, the list is huge, and there are so many I haven't added because they aren't sourced as well. Historyday01 (talk) 19:23, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * @PanagiotisZois, I am happy to announce that the List of fictional bisexual characters is up and running! Your sandbox was helpful in adding some extra sources. Going to create some other pages next. Huge lists are always fun, sorta, ha. --Historyday01 (talk) 00:29, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Ranma 1/2
In the 1980s section it lists Akane Tendo as a lesbian, and Ranma Saotome as transgender. These are not really justifiable. You can put Akane as possibly bisexual, but she does not identify as a lesbian, and is attracted to Ranma, but it's not clear it's exclusive to his female form. She otherwise only shows romantic interest in male characters. She also does not reject Ryoga's interest in her. She is unaware of it. And yes, Ranma does turn into a girl, but it is a physical change only, it's not permanent (which the article implies), and he never identifies as a woman/girl except for manipulation purposes. Having him described as 'she' in this article is very misleading. --Trebligoniqua (talk) 11:42, 28 June 2020 (UTC)


 * @Trebligoniqua, I haven't watched Ranma, but if you think that those categories are wrong, feel free to move them. The entries on this page are fluid, so if you want to change them, go right ahead. I did bring a lot of the stuff on this page together, but its no guarantee that everything on it is completely correct. Happy editing! Historyday01 (talk) 02:46, 29 June 2020 (UTC)


 * @Historyday01. Great! Thanks for the endorsement. I left them both in, and wrote some edits, but moved Akane down to Other and put in "Possibly Bisexual" as a descriptor. Ranma, who is straight, should possibly be removed from the list. It's a grey area, I'd say, since he identifies as male in all forms, but does literally transform into a biological female form. This character was not conceived with idea of actual transgender persons in mind.--Trebligoniqua (talk) 11:26, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Alphabetic Order
Don't you think it would be quite confusing to order the characters in alphabetic order? It looked more simpler when ordered in debut dates. Furthermore, some of the orders are mixed up. I don't know...it just seems weird. GlitchyM. (talk) 03:24, 29 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Ah, yes. Well, I changed it to bring it into alignment with pages like List of fictional bisexual characters, List of fictional lesbian characters, List of fictional trans characters, List of fictional asexual characters, List of fictional intersex characters, List of fictional non-binary characters (that page needs a lot of work), List of fictional pansexual characters, List of lesbian characters in anime, List of lesbian characters in animation, List of lesbian characters in anime, List of bisexual characters in anime, and List of bisexual characters in animation. Additionally, the debut dates are a bit clunky, and some are only estimates (especially for the anime characters). If people want to organize it by date, they still can do so, but I think alphabetical order flows a little better. --Historyday01 (talk) 02:53, 29 June 2020 (UTC)


 * @GlitchyM., the page (and all those that spring from it) has been reordered by series dates. I'll still keep the other format on the pages I mentioned in my now crossed out comment. Suggestions for improvement are welcome. Historyday01 (talk) 01:21, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Justifying new categorization
Based on some of the recent conversations on this page, I am bringing it back to alignment close to its organization on November 2, 2019. Clearly, the page has strayed from its original organization. That's mostly my doing, so this is just a corrective measure. The page should be focused on animated series, not characters. If someone wants to see pages focused on characters, they should look on other pages, which will be linked at the top of the main page and those that spring off it. Historyday01 (talk) 01:28, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

The Owl House
Can someone add Willow's dads from The Owl House? —ÐW (talk/contribs) 00:41, 19 August 2020 (UTC)


 * @ÐW, good question. I added them to the List of gay characters in animation page because they only show up in one episode so far, meaning they are not yet recurring characters. That's the only reason they aren't on the page currently. Historyday01 (talk) 01:11, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Arthur
I noticed there's no mention of the same-sex wedding on Arthur, even though the inclusion of an openly gay character on a PBS show received significant media coverage and the character in question is very regularly featured on the show. I'm not sure how best to incorporate this information, though - the show started airing in the 1990s, but the episode about the wedding aired in 2019. A.L. Garner (talk) 03:51, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Good eye for that, @A.L. Garner! There's a short entry for it on the List of animated series with LGBTQ characters: 1995–1999 page right now. In the past, all the characters, from the 1960s to now, were on this page, but it became too much, so most of that got spun off onto their own pages, specifically for shows beginning in the 1990s, 2000s, and 2010s. Eventually shows for the 2020s will get their own page too, but we aren't are that point yet.--Historyday01 (talk) 13:09, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Confirmation and the use of secondary sources
I'm posting this to head off any criticism of this article that secondary sources are used to prove the LGBTQ identities of the characters listed on this page. This is similar to what I posted on the List of animated series with LGBTQ characters: 2005–2009 talk page, but I am posting it here as well. According to WP:YTCOPYRIGHT, specifically the original research section,

"All material in Wikipedia articles must be attributable to a reliable published source. This means a reliable published source must exist for it, whether or not it is cited in the article. Sources must support the material clearly and directly: drawing inferences from multiple sources to advance a novel position is prohibited by the NOR policy. Base articles largely on reliable secondary sources. While primary sources are appropriate in some cases, relying on them can be problematic. For more information, see the Primary, secondary, and tertiary sources section of the NOR policy, and the Misuse of primary sources section of the BLP policy."

Furthermore, on WP:NOR, it says:

"Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources. Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and to avoid novel interpretations of primary sources. All analyses and interpretive or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary or tertiary source, and must not be an original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors."

As such, citing sources like The Mary Sue, Comic Book Resources, Collider, Anime News Network, Bustle, Vulture, Polygon, Screen Rant, Den of Geek, Curve, Gawker, Odyssey, the various GLAAD reports, and many others cited on the main page, are totally acceptable. When it comes to anime, official sites often are limited in the characters they talk about (usually only the protagonists, not the secondary characters for the most part) or give the characters biographies by putting text within images, making translation of the text impossible unless you are fluent in Japanese. This also means that primary sources are NOT necessarily needed to show the LGBTQ identity of any of the characters listed on this page. Such sources are nice, like in the cases of The Owl House, Kipo, Patalliro, Q-Force, Asteroid in Love, and Distant Lands, but they are not always available, especially if the show is an anime or is relatively obscure, and are also not necessary!

I just thought I'd point this out before some editor comes along and tries to remove content here. Historyday01 (talk) 13:45, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Magical Girl site
could somebody put Kiyoharu Suirenji from Magical Girl Site here? she's a trans girl — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lightlustra (talk • contribs) 07:25, 9 November 2020 (UTC)


 * @Lightlustra, if you can find a reliable source, feel free to add it to the List of animated series with LGBTQ characters: 2015–2019 page, specifically for the year 2018. I did write up an entry for it and put it in my sandbox but I couldn't find any sources at the time. Here's what I came up with:

Historyday01 (talk) 14:37, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

The problem is that I dont understand how to put her entry... i tried already but it always looks off in preview Lightlustra (talk) 16:28, 9 November 2020 (UTC)