Talk:List of automobile sales by model/Archive 2

Please note The below content was originally at Talk:List of vehicle nameplate sales figures and was moved here after a decision to redirect that page to this article. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:27, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Major tidy of this article, 4 August 2006
I finally, finally found my source for the Mitsubishi Galant selling almost 5m cars. Turns out that was only in the fist 28 years, so sales will be higher since then. Recorded as >5m.

Anyway, as I added it to the list, I realised what a mess the page was, so... Regards, --DeLarge 11:00, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) I used the "#" bullet to auto-number everything. Future editors won't need to re-number the entire list after every new addition.
 * 2) I added production years for every entry to give some perspective of the rate of sales (and personally speaking, nothing comes close to the Ford Model T in that regard
 * 3) I added  to every entry which isn't verified, and I'll be doing that to every future entry as well.
 * 4) I spent some time referencing the unverified ones, but I had neither the time nor inclination to do them all.
 * 5) I deleted a lot of the irrelevant or POV commentaries. Saying "rear air cooled was copied but not successfully" contributes nothing to the list of the VW Beetle's sales figures, and 50 years of the Porsche 911 contradicts it too.
 * 6) I removed the Dodge Omni/Plymouth Horizon from the bottom, since whoever added that didn't even bother to put a number down.

Wanted
The 'To Do' list, if anyone can help... Regards, --DeLarge 19:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Cumulative global sales for the Honda Accord? Best I can find is "8m US sales by 2003", which is a bit useless for a global list compiled in '06.
 * Cumulative sales figures for the Nissan Altima?
 * Cumulative sales for some other bestselling trucks (Dodge Ram, Chevrolet Silverado, etc etc)
 * References for the one yet-to-be-validated claim currently in the article; the Volkswagen Gol.
 * (Latest update --DeLarge 17:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC))

Regards, Willirennen 20:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I could do with a sales total for the Nissan Silvia if anybody knows it and I don't know if its worth adding the 180SX, 200SX and 240SX altogether as there is some similarities between each other in various countries. Also, I will soon be adding the Nissan Fairlady to the list as I have got the book that mentioned the sales total up to 2003 (which says over 1.5 million).


 * Do you have one for the Mazda RX-7 and MGB as I read that they both each sold over 500,000. Regards, Willirennen 18:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Cumulative sales figures for the Nissan March\Micra? Willirennen 17:19, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
 * How about one for the Porsche 911, Nissan Skyline, Mitsubishi GTO, Mitsubishi FTO. Donnie Park (talk) 06:07, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * ...also one for Honda Prelude, Honda Integra, Toyota Starlet, Toyota Chaser, Toyota Mark II, Toyota Cressida, Toyota Cresta. Donnie Park (talk) 10:37, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

(http://machinist.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2566&Itemid=2) Can someone edit the VW Polo into the list as they should come in around number 20. 1mppoo (talk) 09:52, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The Volkswagen Polo has production numbers of 11,111,111

Bestselling NAMEPLATES?
Wow, what a nicely refreshing example of a great list after the horrors now at AfD! I was only wondering why it is not simply a List of automobile bestellers or something - it discusses both nameplates that were applied to a lot of cars sold AND vehicles which, in essence technically identical, also sold in great numbers, sometimes under various names. I'd say only the first qualify under the current title, so it would be sensible to either split the list, or (what I think would be more sensible) rename it to reflect the contents, and the current lead section actually explains the inclusion criteria and differences quite well. Regards, Bravada, talk - 22:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I truly appreciate all the hard work that all the contributors (and especially one!) are putting into digging out sources and further expanding the article, but I guess now the list is at risk of becoming pretty meaningless due to inconsistent criteria. As I mentioned, we have actual automobile models that were produced in huge numbers (Ford T, Beetle, VAZ/Lada 2101-7 "Zhiguli"), nameplates applied to a large number of automobiles produced and quite dubious entries (like the Nissan "whatever our compact model was called in any market at any time" and Mazda "everything that was or was not Familia"). Since the list becomes a source for lazy journalists, I believe we really need to decide where we are going and, preferably, split. Cheers, Bravada, talk - 15:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, how about...
 * We keep this page as is; it's a kind of catch-all for all different kinds of bestsellers, and since it's been recently cited by an external source, I'd like to keep it here. Also, while it is inconsistent, it meets the criteria of verifiability.
 * We create a related List of bestselling automobiles/cars/vehicles (delete as appropriate), populating it only with individual designs and generations (no cumulative Corolla sales, no combining multiple minivan marques, etc etc), and link to it in the opening paragraph.
 * --DeLarge 19:59, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * One problem with the current list is that although it is well-sourced, the criteria for inclusion are vague at best. For example, it features a claim by Nissan that they made this and this number of compact cars since that and that year - the cars are different technically and appeared under different names! I am afraid Mazda's claim regarding the Familia might be similarly tainted, as the cars were appearing under many different names, both in Japan and abroad (and certainly they do not mean just one single generation of Familia, so the cars are different too).
 * I believe we should narrow down this list to best-selling nameplates per se, just as the title says, and create a separate list of best-selling models (i.e. technically identical or almost identical vehiles in one "generation"). Some of the vehicles, like the Ford T, would be on both lists, while some other marketing blurbs, like the Mazda and Nissan ones, have to go totally - they might make the manufacturers feel better, but we have to stick to some criteria. Bravada, talk - 20:44, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Keep adding, or prune?
Well, I added all the Volvo cars which had sold 1m+, and that took the list to 65 cars so far. However, I could have added plenty more, as my reference source cited production figures for all models and even model variants. Should I have omitted the 250,000-selling PV544, for example?

Now, if the answer's yes, do I then omit all sub-million sellers (which would mean pruning the Dodge Aries, Lincoln Town Car and Mazda MX-5)? That'd be more in keeping with the article's title, i.e. "bestsellers", but it smacks of exclusionism. Or do I keep piling on the cars and references, and think about changing the article title? Or do I split the article into sections? And does anyone care?

I think I know what I want to do, but I'd like to hear feedback, since this isn't the DeLargipedia (yet). --DeLarge 20:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


 * First of all, do refer to my comment above. Splitting the list into nameplates and vehicles would automatically reduce the number of entries. Moreover, I'd just add the "under 1 million" section somewhere, to keep the data for reference. It is certainly worth making sure the articles contains the info before deleting it from here. Bravada, talk - 20:37, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Proposed restructure/expansion
Not that I plan on doing this any time soon, but I reckon the best bet as far as this page would be...
 * 1) Reduce the list to, say, the top 20 entries, which would therefore include only those cars which have sold 10m or more (and maybe a couple of stragglers who didn't quite reach that far). Also have, as User:Bravada suggested, a separate list for the actual bestsellers currently italicised in the list - Beetle, Model T, Lada, etc.
 * 2) To avoid losing all my lovingly researched info, have sections further down for the following:
 * Best sellers by manufacturer/marque (maybe the top 3 or 5 from each, or more if it's a big company with a long history?)
 * Best sellers by type (which will allow niche market vehicles like the Corvette or Porsche 911 to remain on the list)
 * Best sellers by country of manufacture, as this is already occasionally mentioned in the existing list

At the end of it all, we should hopefully have several lists, each one reasonably navigable, with several duplicates (e.g. the Corolla will be the bestseller overall, the bestselling Toyota, the bestselling subcompact, the bestselling Japanese car, etc etc). I don't think that any of the cars on the current list would be excluded, and indeed many more could be added -- bestselling Lamborghini, anyone? --DeLarge 17:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm definitely going to restructure this article now. Following the inclusion of numerous BL/Austin/Rover cars, none of which were bestsellers either by country, class or in most cases even by manufacturer, it's clear that the list could too easily be overwhelmed by marque-fans inserting all the cars they like. The reference source used for Volvos includes every car ever built from that company. Taking that to its conclusion would render the page unreadable very very quickly, so this page is going to be split and trimmed. --DeLarge 13:32, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Honda Supercub
Quick query: should I include this? I've a feeling that the creators of the page meant "bestselling automobiles" when they created the title, but that's not what the page is called. And its 50m sales, which knock the Corolla down to a distant second, is easily cited. It was added to the list in an old edit on 21:52, May 28, 2006, but deleted during a "cleanup" on 19:31, July 3, 2006.

The more edits I do, the more inclined I am to move this page to a more appropriate title... --DeLarge 15:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Nissan
I am currently working on the production total for the Nissan Silvias, but all I can get hold of is the production of the first model which is 554.

The only number I can get hold of is the 240SX as I cannot get hold of the productions total of 180SX and 200SX or even the Nissan Sileighty which Nissan made 500 and sold through dealers.

Another figure that does not addup is the Z car one, according to Brian Long's 300ZX/350Z book, he states the total sold up from 1958 till 2003 with a gap in production between 2000 and 2002 is 1580567, that figure mentiond do not account for the missing 663 between 1999 and 2000 when the car was still in production and the 49881 of the first two models that shares its Japanese namesake, so for the maths, that total would be 1,585,544 although that would feel inconsistent.

Other than that, anybody got the total production for the Nissan Skyline. Willirennen 23.32 26 November 2006


 * It looks like Brian Long's figures are for the Datsun Fairlady, and he includes the 1959–70 vehicles which preceded the recognised "Z-Cars", hence the disparity. No, that's not right, scratch that. I'm not sure what accounts for the disparity, although for the sake of meeting Wikipedia's verifiability guideline, I'd be hesitant to credit a book with the correct figures ahead of the manufacturer who provided the current cited figure (official press release is here).


 * I wouldn't put both in as separate entries though, to avoid duplication/confusion. I'd either replace the current entry with one for the Nissan Fairlady, perhaps specifying that all but 40,000 were "Z-Cars", or I'd leave as is. In fact, in retrospect I'm tempted to replace the current entry since the "Z-Cars" were a range of vehicles with different nameplates. We wouldn't tally all BMW M vehicles together, or all the different Ford RS vehicles. --DeLarge 16:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Mazda 3 and Familia
Aren't they the same car apart from the latter has the 3 name purely to internationalise the car. Willirennen: 15.26 3 December 2006
 * As far as I'm aware, the Mazda3/Axela is the successor to the Familia/323. Are there any markets where a Mazda3 is sold as a Familia? It's the same situation as the European Escort/Focus, or the Cortina/Sierra/Mondeo; we're not trying to tally up the cumulative sales of Mazda's subcompact car under any given name. We can trace a common lineage in the 323/Protegé via the Familia nameplate, but it's been replaced entirely by the Axela/3, unless I'm mistaken. However, I'll edit the Mazda3 entry to include the Axela name. --DeLarge 16:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Another planned tidy
The recent additions of numerous old British Leyland cars, followed by the Lamborghini Diablo's 2,903 sales, has left me deciding to tidy this page up. This is the List of BESTSELLING vehicle nameplates. Originally there was an arbitrary limit of 1m sales required to get on the list, with exceptions for stuff like the Mazda MX-5 -- justifiable, since its sales got it into the Guinness World Records.

Have a look at the reference for any Volvo. I only included those models which sold 1m+, when in fact I could have included every single model the company's ever made. If the car isn't a "bestseller" of some sort, I see no reason to keep it here; simply put the production/sales figures in the article about the car itself, as I did with Lamborghini Diablo. --DeLarge 09:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Lamborghinis and Ferraris??
I realize this is a list of best selling vehicles, but is it really appropriate to list the Gallardo? It is significant that it is the best selling Lambo ever, but it certainly doesn't belong on the list. Perhaps it could be on the page, as a special note or something, but including it on the numbered list seems a bit inappropriate. I think if no one protests this or pays any attention to it, I'll delete it anyways, but I'd like feedback. _VonShroom 02:44, 16 April 2007 (UTC)_
 * I'd say it deserves inclusion as it meets the criteria of a "bestselling" vehicle more than a lot of others on the list, i.e. it's the bestselling vehicle from a particluar marque or manufacturer. If you're going to say that 5,000 or 17,000 sales is insufficient for this list, I'd want to know what was the lower limit for inclusion, and why was it set (i.e. was it for a good reason or an arbitrary number defined by you, which is WP:OR)?
 * What I would support, and what I've been planning on doing myself, is a merge/redirect to List of automobiles by sales. That page was specifically created for such a purpose, since:
 * It's a more accurate title; we're only listing automobiles here, not "vehicles" (the Honda Super Cub has been removed from the list in the past for no obvious reason).
 * It's better laid out, in tabular format and with accompanying images.
 * By alphabetizing the list it avoids the most problematic issue with this article; the confusion from thinking that the numbering system represents an absolute ranking (which is itself WP:OR). --DeLarge 13:07, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * You have some good ideas, but I like having a list of vehicles (or only automobiles) that is ranked somehow. The alpabetized page is useful, but for someone looking for how one auto stacks up against another, this article is more useful, and has a right to exist.  It is true that ranking the vehicles is somewhat guesswork, but there are other lists on Wikipedia that are incomplete or a tad ambiguous, yet still helpful.  There just needs to be a better definition of what belongs on this page.  Perhaps there could also be a page that mentions other vehicle info, or even by manufacturer?  _VonShroom 20:45, 16 April 2007 (UTC)_


 * Covering your arguments in order, please read WP:ILIKEIT, WP:USEFUL, and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.
 * The trouble with a list we rank ourselves is that it's original research. Find me a source outside Wikipedia and its mirrors that says the Renault Clio is the 20th bestselling car in the world, or that the Ford Ranger is 38th. No original research is one of the five pillars of WP, and is absolutely not allowed.
 * Before I started editing this page, the cars were numbered "manually". I added the hashes simply to make it easier for editors to insert new entries without renumbering the entire list, not to indicate any kind of ranking system. It's not enough to simply provide a source for the total sales of each individual model, as I (painstakingly) did. We have to provide a source for the list as a whole. Hence the existence in my userspace of a List of bestselling automobiles, which if I ever get round to finishing is supposed to be a more specific replacement for this page. Aside from the info already there, I plan on including references to such lists as The Top 5 Best-Selling Cars Ever (Time for Kids), the Top 5 World’s Most Successful Cars Ever (Automotoportal), etc etc. I like the idea of an absolutely comprehensive list of every car ever sold, but Wikipedia isn't the place for such a list until it's been published elsewhere and subjected to peer review to confirm its accuracy.
 * In the meantime, the article might get a stay of execution if the hashes are replaced with bullet points to remove the "rankings", which is something I should have done a long time ago. However, I'd resist the removal of the Lamborghini and Ferrari; both are bestsellers of a sort, and have been explicitly described as such in the external sources cited for their sales figures. You can hardly argue that the list is useful or helpful to "someone looking for how one auto stacks up against another" while at the same time unilaterally deciding that some cars are not going to be available for such comparisons. --DeLarge 22:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Alright, you're correct. Do what you'd like with the page, and I appriciate the criticisms. I guess I'm more inexperienced than I thought. _VonShroom 19:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)_

Honda S series
Isn't the Honda S500, S600, S800 all the same car with different sized engines, this is like having a separate list for the the Datsun 240Z, 260Z and 280Z. Willirennen 16:14, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Ford Sierra
The Ford Sierra was really a single design which had a mid-life restyle. It should be included as a single model, in italics. The Fiat Uno underwent a more radical restyle, but is still listed as a single model, as it should be. Other cars, such as the VW Beetle, changed more over its production run than the Sierra did. Jason404 (talk) 15:18, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

You gotta be kidding me
This list seems more like speculation than fact, only allowing certain ones. Seriously, the Dodge Ram truck isn't on this list? Nor the GMC Sierra / Chevy Silverado? I'm sure more Rams have been sold than the Honda Airwave. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.168.71.168 (talk) 04:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Speculation when there's 100+ citations (and "fact needed" tags for those that don't have them)? The GMC isn't listed simply because I can't find a figure. If you have a sourced number I'd be delighted to hear it. --DeLarge (talk) 16:54, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

On that note, Where's the Volkswagen Polo, It's likely to be a top 20 best seller. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.243.180.72 (talk) 15:27, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Resurrection of merger proposal
See Talk:List of automobile sales by model for rationale. --DeLarge (talk) 16:54, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

The Article is misnamed
The Honda Cub is the best selling vehicle nameplate of all time. This article is about automobiles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.196.81.85 (talk) 21:28, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Inclusion of Vega Cosworth
I personally object to the Vega Cosworth being listed there as I thought that this list about best selling nameplates, not best selling submodels, if nobody objects then this means nobody gives a **** about this maintaining this list, which then means why don't we add go and add the Lancer Evo, Skyline GT-R, Impreza STi, Metro 6R4, Corvette ZR1, ZO6 to that list. Donnie Park (talk) 23:36, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't feel like having an editing war. This Cosworth is as different from a Vega as the Porsche Carrera GT listed, is different than the Porsche 911 listed. Same car line...different car. The Cosworth had hand built engines that were signed by the individual builder, cars were all numbered and cost 6000, where a Vega cost under 3000. but you think its the same car or sub model. Know any cars from the seventies that (only shared the same body) but cost double the price? I didn't think so. It belongs with other low production cars at the end of the list. Feel free to add some of your own choices. By the way, its nice to see some low production models at the end... I didn't start that but I don't see anything wrong with it. Unless you put a cut off on the best selling list, like 100,000 or even 10,000 leave it with the other exclusive low production cars at the end. One more thing, both the Chevrolet brochure and the only ad on the car reads (only) "Cosworth Twin-Cam." It was re-listed that way.Vegavairbob (talk) 00:26, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Carrera GT is an entirely different car from the Porsche 911, hence why they're listed separately. The Carrera GT was mid-engined, and rode on a wheelbase almost 15" longer than the contemporary 911, which was a rear-drive platform. A better parallel would be if sales of the Porsche 911 Turbo were mentioned separately (they're not). Notice that even all the separate versions of the 911 (996, 997, etc) are lumped together as one. Separate platforms, same nameplate. I'm with Donnie on this; keep all Vega sales together.
 * As for cars which shared a platform but cost much, much more, there are many over the years: Plymouth Superbird (Road Runner), Ford Sierra RS Cosworth (Sierra/Sapphire), Lancia Integrale (Delta), Buick GNX (Regal), Porsche 959 (911), Nissan Skyline GT-R (Skyline), etc. The Vega Cosworth is not unique by any stretch. Virtually every homologation special in history fits the description you gave. --DeLarge (talk) 18:12, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Model T and the 124
The Fiat 124 says its a single design and has sold more that the Model T yet the Model T is listed as the second best selling single design, that doesn't make much sense. I'm going to remove the note from the model T, could anyone who knows the truth please edit the two entries to make them correct?(82.8.220.29 (talk) 19:52, 17 October 2009 (UTC))

List of bestselling vehicle nameplates
I moved this from List of bestselling vehicle nameplates as that title was misleading. The list is incomplete but presents itself as a ranked list of sales figures. However there are no cited lists, just individual cites, so there is no way of knowing what night be missing. For example Daewoo Matiz and Ford Transit are missing, the later being the best-selling light commercial vehicle in Europe for 40 years. Without citations to a reliable complete list, this is nothing other than a random collection of figures listed in numerical order. -- Pontificalibus (talk) 10:46, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think this list is useful for lower production vehicles but the bestselling list should be returned listing vehicles with 1,000,000 or more (or other high production amount) be returned.(Vegavairbob (talk) 06:08, 16 February 2010 (UTC))