Talk:List of best-selling PC games/Archive 1

Burger King game
3.2 million apparently. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 18:45, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

WoW Expansions
Small issue with the expansion numbers: you can't install WotLK without already having BC, so why is it that the numbers quoted show more people have WotLK than have BC? If no one can find a source with updated data, the line concerning BC should be removed as it is clearly no longer accurate. Khalfani Khaldun  09:16, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Because we are about verifiability, not truth, and can only report numbers already published. It is not our fault Blizzard doesn't report more accurate numbers ;-) -- ReyBrujo (talk) 17:46, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm... I understand. And saying that BC has at least 4m subscribers counts as WP:OR, doesn't it? Sad day. =( Khalfani  Khaldun  00:20, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * If it is a fact that WotLK requires BC then that indicates that there is a descrepancy in the numbers (either the BC stats have not been updated or the WotLK stats are incorrect). I don't think it would be OR to report the descrepancy. Argel1200 (talk) 22:12, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Does it require a key? If I buy BC, install it, and then share it to my friends, can they just install it? I have never played a WoW, but if it is just an expansion, there exist the possibility of not reaching the sales. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 00:20, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, Blizzard got a little creative with this. The keys are linked to your account, so while you can install your copy on as many computers as you'd like, there's no way anyone could play on another own account without having purchased it. Khalfani  Khaldun  00:26, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

This is My issue about the Cata sales: Buying the game doesn't mean you installed it. For all we know, 4.7 million grandmothers bought the games for their grandkids, but none of those kids even opened their gifts, and indeed never had a WOW account. Obviously, this didn't happen like that, but it does show the thinking that you need to buy the previous three expansions before cata are unfounded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.229.244.240 (talk) 00:54, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

My issue, is that these are expansions, period. With the exception of Cataclysm, I believe (I'm no WoW expert), you need the core game to play them. They aren't stand alone products and because of this should not have a separate listing. I will remove them if there is no objection. Leitmotiv (talk) 21:20, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

The Witcher
Sales update to 1.2m. They also mention they have, this way, entered the top 100 best-selling PC video games ever. I wonder where they got that information? -- ReyBrujo (talk) 01:43, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

By Year
Is it too much to ask for a separate list for each year? Jwray (talk) 10:26, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Not really, but it would be redundant, since exactly the same information will be presented in two different ways. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 04:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

WoW Numbers
This is meant to be a best selling list, but WoW only has a number for active subscribers, not total units sold or shipped. I was once a subscriber, but no longer subscriber, and I'm pretty sure in not the only post-WoW gamer in the world.--Mrlego9 (talk) 01:21, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed, that is why WoW is having such a hard time passing the 11.5m they have announced some time ago. However, we try to report sales numbers, and were World of Warcraft to start decaying, we will keep the 11.5m as the peak, because the next MMORPG will have to beat that mark to become the best-selling MMORPG game. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 04:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It's useful to have WoW numbers, but subscriber numbers have little to do with "total sales". Apples and oranges... I suspect there are many more total sales of WoW than there are active subscribers. - Commandur (talk) 04:25, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * There is in my opinion a flaw with this. WoW is listed as having sold at least 4.7 million units, however in the latest Activision-Blizzard earnings call, they revealed that they have 9.1 million subscribers. Since it is impossible to be a WoW subscriber without owning (i.e. having bought) the game, sales figures should be at least 9.1. million instead of at least 4.7 million. The article begins by stating that subscription numbers are not taken into account, but surely this is flawed, since - as I mentioned - you can't be a subscriber without having bought the game. Hargir (talk) 19:26, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The numbers are indeed very odd. The entry for Guild Wars includes all expansions, while the entry for WoW is based on old Cataclysm sales figures. The payment model for WoW is that you first buy the game, then pay a subscription, and that each expansion requires all previous expansions. So if the game has X subscribers, the original "box" game must have sold at least X copies. If the final expansion has sold Y copies, then all previous expansions must have sold at least Y copies. On top of that are the sales to people who have quit, meaning that Wrath of the Lich King (expansion 2) must have sold better than Cataclysm (expansion 3), but we can't really know how much more. The Burning Crusade (expansion 1) is a bit trickier, as Blizzard started giving that away for free to anyone with the original game around the time that Cataclysm was released. Either way, the original game should be listed as having sold a number that is at least equal to the highest number of subscribers. Realistically, the actual number is going to be around twice that, but unless Blizzard releases actual sales figures that's just speculation. - 83.233.144.15 (talk) 05:55, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
 * You miss the fact that in most Asian countries the system for WoW is different. In China most people don't have their own computers and go to internet cafes and pay different amounts of money just for play time. China and South Korea have that for most Blizzard games, you can play Starcraft II for 50$ forever yet there are many options for other play times. Same goes for WoW, and these people are counted into the "active subscribers". Although I doubt WoW has sold less than 12 million copies(their peak of subscribers), there is no sure way to prove it, and no valuable source.

Red Alert 3
The video here (full link here says Red Alert 3 sold over a million copies, but it doesn't specify platform (at the 00:01:20 mark). It may specify it later, someone can verify the whole program? -- ReyBrujo (talk) 01:55, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Bundled games
Should bundled games be included? The games that come with Windows, like Solitaire and Minesweeper, have surely shipped far more than any game sold on its own - and are quite probably played by more people too. M0ffx (talk) 23:36, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Most of those games can't be bought separately. That is (I believe) the threshold for including it here. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 14:58, 13 July 2009 (UTC)
 * This is a list of sales. Obviously a game that you not only give away for free, but ship with something else (in this case Windows) regardless of whether people want it or not will have more "sales". It's not really possible to get any idea about how many people actually play those games, though, especially as a lot of the copies will be on work computers. - 83.233.144.15 (talk) 05:59, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Elder Scrolls: Oblivion
Can anyone find if this title has sold over 1 million copies for PC? It was at 1.7 million for PC and XBox combined in 2006, but I can't find any sources on its total PC sales. I'd be surprised if they hadn't passed the 1 million mark by now.Tws45 (talk) 21:35, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Do we need solid numbers for games to make the list? If we know it is over 1 million, shouldn't it still make the list? Perhaps we can list it is a minimum (e.g. "1.7 million or higher")? I'm also wondering about this for Fallout 3, which sold 4.7+ (million), and I was surprised it wasn't on the list. - Commandur (talk) 03:57, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Sims 3 - unreliable source?
Sims 3's current source is this article on Gamasutra. This source citation appears to be unreliable, with a different value in this list article than in the citation title, as well as a different value than in the source material itself. I'm still new to editing and am having trouble figuring out how to deal with this. I would appreciate it if someone can look at this, and/or give me some tips for editing on my user page. Thanks. - Commandur (talk) 04:08, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

PC games? PC sales vs. console/cross-platform
I think "PC games" should mean any game that was released and sold for PC's, regardless if it is also available on consoles. That said, are we only including PC sales for these titles, or combined sales (i.e. total cross-platform sales) for these "PC game" titles? - Commandur (talk) 04:25, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It is my understanding that this page basically ignores any sales not on a PC platform, so some games that are more popular on consoles may not appear here. - Alanaktion (talk) 20:24, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Present figures unavailable, but known to be over 1 million?
Some games make over a million copies, but the CURRENT total sales are still unknown, as I also mentioned in my comment under the Oblivion section. What can we do in this situation? (I created this section since it's more relevant to the article as a whole, and less relevant to the Oblivion listing.) - Commandur (talk) 04:25, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * This is certainly a problem with this page, but unless accurate sales information can be found, the game probably shouldn't be added to the list. Interestingly I noticed this when thinking of Skyrim, not Oblivion... - Alanaktion (talk) 20:28, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Guildwars
At the top of the page it says that Guild Wars expansions are included in total sales, which brings the total sales of guildwars to over 5 million... why isnt it on there? (GW Sales Link) The Wojo (talk) 21:47, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * nvm, 6 million. See Best selling video games The Wojo (talk) 21:51, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Call of Duty
Unless I've missed it, where the hell is the Call of Duty franchise? Wiki's own page states that " on March 16, 2010, Activision confirmed that the game had sold over 14 million copies worldwide, making it the second best-selling game of all time in the UK,[17] and third best-selling game of all time in the US" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_of_Duty:_Modern_Warfare_2 76.10.147.251 (talk) 07:34, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Pardon if this post is formatted badly, I am a little new to this. Though I think the reason for the omission is due to a verifiable breakdown of sales specifically for the PC, the articles I can find all quote solely the console sales. Hope this clears this up somewhat. 2001:8B0:9D:1:0:0:0:1337 (talk) 19:45, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Hellgate: London
If you were around for this game, you absolutely know there was never, ever one million active subscribers. The game had an in-game feature in which you could gauge the number of people there were playing the game (there was only one server). At the most there was only 20,000 people at launch date--by February of next year (the month they took the feature out), there were only 2,000 at peak times. Add to the fact that subscription was optional for the game and that there was little to no reason to subscribe (as the benefits to do so were not there). This statistic was debated amongst folks and was considered pure hyperbole or a misuse of a more probable statistic (such as the number of accounts created for the game, including testing accounts, which is a more likely figure). Couple this fact that the company announced it was going under three months after that report was made, and I think it's pretty clear that the game never even had 1/16th of that many subscribers. 75.74.188.74 (talk) 15:46, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Table format?
Any interest in changing to a table format from the list format? It would then be possible to add interesting columns like genre, developer, publisher, etc. SharkD   Talk  01:25, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
 * This change has been made... I haven't checked when. - Alanaktion (talk) 20:30, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Doom has not sold five million copies
This article currently states that Doom sold five million copies, using a billboard article from June 16, 1994 as a source. This article is just plain wrong, with the billboard writer probably equating downloads of the shareware version with sales. Every other source out there contradicts this.

A San-Diego Union Tribune article dated November 15, 1994 contains the following quote: "Then, on Dec. 10, 1993, id released its much-anticipated Doom. Millions of free "demo" copies were distributed around the world, passed from player to player by floppy disk or on-line networks. The idea was that after blasting monsters of various sorts on nine increasingly difficult levels of action in the demo program, players would want the other 18 levels available in the "registered" version, which cost $40. More than 120,000 people took the bait and registered."

A New York Times article from September 3, 1994 available at http://www.nytimes.com/1994/09/03/business/company-news-virtual-mayhem-and-real-profits.html contains this quote: "Mr. Wilbur says that more than 100,000 registered copies of Doom have been sold."

An August 1996 article from Wired available at http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/4.08/id.html contains this quote: "The most popular computer game of all time, Doom has sold more than 2 million copies."

In an interview with video games daily.com from July 8, 2008 available at http://archive.videogamesdaily.com/features/todd-hollenshead-id-software-interview-p4.asp, id CEO Todd Hollenshead had this to say about Doom 3: "I think there are three people on the internet that keep making these posts that Doom 3 was "bad", and they get no credibility from any other people... there's some mass-misperception out there. I get this occasionally - why don't I think Doom 3 was successful? We sold over three million units! It's the most successful game in id's history." In other words, no previous id game had hit the three million in sales threshold.

Final numbers for Doom on PC alone are difficult to determine since the game also received a few console ports, but 2 million seems the upper limit, and it was probably somewhat less than that on PC. Either way, it was clearly not five million. I am therefore removing Doom from the list. I leave it to someone else to decide which of the more reliable sources they would like to use if they wish to readd the game to the list. Indrian (talk) 20:50, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Civilization has not sold six million copies
Does anyone actually do any basic fact checking around here? This ridiculous claim comes from some French website that has no indicia of reliability on the topic that I can see. Why don't we check the Firaxis webpage instead, where http://www.firaxis.com/games/game_detail.php?gameid=14 gives us this quote: "With more than six million units sold, Sid Meier's strategy and simulation-driven Civilization is recognized as one of the greatest gaming franchises of all time, and now for the first time, the entire series is compiled in one behemoth package." One can clearly see these are sales for the entire franchise, not the original game. This French site got its facts wrong. I am removing this. Indrian (talk) 22:09, 11 November 2010 (UTC)


 * It would appear not. Heck, if the citation to wikipedia I just fixed managed get past (don't know for how long) then it would seem this page is in dire need of some attention. I'll go through it and check the refs tomorrow if you haven't already.  Alphathon ™ ( talk ) 22:15, 11 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a good idea, I only did a quick pass of the list for numbers that seemed really out of whack and found the Doom and Civ stuff as well as an inflated figure for Myst that was sourced to the French wikipedia project. Indrian (talk) 22:18, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

Grand theft auto and Battlefield Bad company 2 not in the list?
Yeah, not a single GTA game. 201.153.199.123 (talk) 00:26, 4 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Check out http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Grand_Theft_Auto --89.236.50.7 (talk) 09:43, 19 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Maybe this is a more reliable source? (Sales seperated on different formats):
 * http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=grand+theft+auto&publisher=&platform=&genre=&minSales=0&results=200
 * (Sorry, If my wiki-post isn't up to the wiki-conventions standards)

Diablo 2 source is over 10 years old
Do we really not have a newer source than sales data from 2001? This game has sold far, far more than 4 million copies. In 2008, it still ranked in the top 20 highest selling PC games of the year. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.18.202.45 (talk) 01:20, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Hey, if you have any newer data, bring it on. You have to bear in mind that unless someone is aware of and cares about this page (or other similar lists for other platforms), even if they see a new figure they won't think to add it. All the figures here represent the last reliable figure for each game that were added to this page. Otherwise, people have to go looking for the data, which is often fairly time consuming (and the only reward is knowing that the page is more up to date). That said, it is a lot more likely that someone will have posted more up to date figures on the D2 page, so you could always start there. There might also be something on the Blizzard press release page (check the citations for WoW and StarCraft II WoW:WotLK for the link).  Alphathon  /'æl.f'æ.ðɒn/ ( talk ) 04:17, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

What about older computers, like the C64?
I just read here that The Last Ninja sold 2 million copies for the Commodore 64, but since this list is for windows, mac and linux, I will not add that info. Are there plans for a true list of best selling computer games, including the C64, Amiga and Atari computers, for example? Best regards, user Hedning from swedish Wikipedia


 * You could just change the wording of the lead - it doesn't have to say "including Microsoft Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux". As far as I can tell, it's only there to make sure it's not misinterpreted as a list of only Windows games. If I were doing that, I'd change it to "including Microsoft Windows, Mac OS X, Linux and various legacy computer systems", or something to that effect.  Alphathon  /'æl.f'æ.ðɒn/ ( talk ) 12:45, 16 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Are you two saying that C64 is a PC? Sure, it is computer, and "personal" also, but C64 definitely is not normally counted as a PC. The x86 and compatible only are those. 82.141.74.224 (talk) 08:32, 11 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I was certainly not saying that the C64 is an IBM PC. If the list were changed to include systems like that, perhaps moving the article to List of best-selling computer games would be more appropriate. Still, having a page purely for C64 or whatever (since it is an entirely different platform, just as the 360 and PS3 are both consoles but are completely different) may be a better solution.  Alphathon  /'æɫfə.θɒn/ ( talk ) 16:27, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, the problem with having a separate C64 page is it would be a pretty short list if you kept it to million sellers. In the world of computer games 100,000 was a hit, 250,000 was an incredible achievement, and 500,000 an unbelievable smash success until the whole FPS and Myst craze transformed the platform.  Last Ninja, The Hobbit, and Populous (the latter two not being C64 games) are the only 1980s computer games I have ever seen with claims of over a million sold. There might be one or two others hiding out there, but the list is definitely short. The other problem is that even if we lowered the standards for 1980s computer games (which seems a good idea to me, I mean a hit is a hit), separating by platform would never work.  Before the PC took over everything, you had games appearing on three or four or five different platforms at roughly the same time, and what few sales figures we have from those days are not broken down by platform.  For many games, it is impossible to know which sales came from which microcomputer. Indrian (talk) 17:08, 11 November 2011 (UTC)


 * There's no reason it has to have its own article; the PS3 for example doesn't even have one - its just part of the List of best-selling video games article (there are others too). I see no reason why this can't also be the case for the C64 (as long as the million+ claims are verifiable of course).  Alphathon  /'æɫfə.θɒn/ ( talk ) 20:31, 11 November 2011 (UTC)


 * While on the subject, I don't really see a good reason why Mac OS X and Linux are included on this list. To me, the platform is Windows, not "anything running on x86".  Alphathon  /'æɫfə.θɒn/ ( talk ) 20:33, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, it really should be a more inclusive list, not less. The problem with computer platforms, as stated above, is that sales have generally not been distinguished between microcomputer models in sales charts and company press releases.  All the games currently in the PC list that also have Mac ports will have those numbers included as well.  While this is usually not a significant number compared to PC, it would cast the numbers of any game with a Mac port in doubt, particularly a game like Myst that actually debuted on the Mac.  Also, the platform is not Windows, as some of the older games on the list were made for the DOS platform.  Heck, Populous should not really be listed if this is truly restricted to the PC, as it was an Amiga release too and we cannot be certain what business it did on PC specifically (actually that 4 million figure most certainly includes SNES sales figures as well, which is technically also a no-no).  Minecraft can be played by anyone using Java, so who knows what combination of platforms that four million figure represents.  In short, keeping the list platform or model or architecture or OS specific for microcomputers simply cannot be done. Indrian (talk) 21:25, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough. That being the case, it really should be "computer games" or similar, rather than "PC video games" (and it should be made clear in the lead).  Alphathon  /'æɫfə.θɒn/ ( talk ) 21:48, 11 November 2011 (UTC)


 * But then, how actually "computer" is defined in this article? Of what I've understood, the new consoles are closer to PC than some old C64 is. You can even install Linux to some of those, I doubt that could be done to C64. 82.141.74.224 (talk) 11:15, 12 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I've added an "Older computers" section just now, and lowered its threshold to 40,000 (the sales for Temple of Apshai, the best-selling computer game of the early 80s). The section only has a few games right now, so it could do with some expansion. Jagged 85 (talk) 18:27, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, forty thousand is okay for the late 1970s and early 1980s up to around 82/83, but after that it should really be 100,000 through to the end of the 1980s. Once the C64 and Apple II became really well established in the middle of the decade, 40,000 was not really that great a feat.  Mule, for example, was considered unsuccessful commercially when it sold 30,000 units in 1983. Also, the Software Publishers Association, the trade association the computer game companies belonged to before the formation of the IDSA (now the ESA), handed out gold and platinum awards to software publishers in a similar manner to the music industry.  A piece of software went gold if it sold 100,000 copies and platinum if it hit 250,000 copies.  That pretty much sums up what a hit looked like for all software, games included, before the low-cost PC revolution of the 1990s. Indrian (talk) 02:01, 26 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, the hard part is of course tracking down sources from that period. The oldest source I've found is the September-October 1982 issue of Computer Gaming World, where the best-selling game in North America is K-RAZY Shoot-Out at 35,000 sales. But I can't seem to find lists like that which cover 1983 onwards. Do you know of any sources that do? Regards, Jagged 85 (talk) 07:26, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I know of no such lists, but sales figures are scattered around various sources. High Score has a few computer game sales figures, as do several issues of CGW, which is also where one can find out about the SPA gold and platinum awards.  Other sales figures are scattered around the Internet in various places and in other magazines.  Retrogamer, in particular, is a good source for figures of early British games and the occasional US release.


 * I am aware of the CGW list you refer to and as stated above 40,000 is not bad for the really early days of computer gaming, but also is not the best showing of the period. According to the book Hackers: Heroes of the Computer Revolution, which profiled Sierra Online, the 1980 release Wizard and the Princess sold 60,000 copies.  According to Infocom sales data linked to on the Zork wikipedia page, the original Zork had already reached nearly 50,000 in sales by 1982 on the way to lifetime sales of nearly 400,000 units, and Zork II, Zork III, and Deadline all eventually topped 100,000 units.  By 1983 you have Origin selling 120,000 copies of Ultima III as reported in Matt Barton's history of roleplaying games and Pinball Construction Set selling 300,000 copies.  The 1984 Infocom release Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy topped 250,000 units in sales.


 * Moving forward just a couple of years, there is Ray Tobey describing the creation of the hit EA game Skyfox on his website and stating it sold over 317,000 units. Dan Bunten's only hit, Seven Cities of Gold, sold 150,000 units according to High Score, which also gives sales of the Bard's Tale, recognized by Barton and others as the first RPG to really hit the mainstream, as 300,000 copies.  High Score describes Greg Johnson's 1986 game Starflight as the first game to go platinum on the IBM PC, which means it sold at least 250,000 copies.  These are just a few examples of top-selling games of the 1980s for which sales figures are known.  I believe 40,000 units is really setting the bar too low, at least from 1982/83 onward. Indrian (talk) 16:16, 28 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for all the figures. Judging from these figures, I assume the best thing to do would be to set the threshold at 40,000 for titles released until 1982, and then increase it to 100,000 for titles released from 1983 onwards, since like you said, it was around the 1982/1983 period that PC game sales really began picking up. Regards, Jagged 85 (talk) 22:31, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I concur. This would be a good system.  I appreciate your initiative on this matter, as I have been thinking this should be expanded for some time and hope you did not take my revert as an attack on your work.  I just wanted to make sure all the numbers were settled before we started putting up material. I would recommend leaving this up for another twenty-four hours or so in case anyone else has any input and then put the changes into effect. Indrian (talk) 23:59, 28 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Now that it's settled, I've restored the section, set the threshold to 40,000 for pre-1983 releases and 100,000 for post-1983 releases, and added all the games mentioned above as well as a few more. Regards, Jagged 85 (talk) 15:00, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Call of Duty
What about Cod? I heard Modern Warfare 2 or Black OPs was the highest selling game with a billion$ sales - how can it not be listed here? --KpoT (talk) 10:08, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
 * For the same reason many other games aren't listed - we don't have PC figures for them. If you can find them (they have to be PC only figures mind) feel free to add them.  Alphathon  /'æl.f'æ.θɒn/ ( talk ) 11:12, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Left 4 Dead 2
sold over 11 million — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.107.73.200 (talk) 02:15, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Can you provide a source?  Alphathon  /'æɫfə.θɒn/ ( talk ) 03:14, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

The PC sales for this were mostly over Steam which as a digital distribution platform is excluded. There is not an easy way to know if retail sales exceeded 1 million. 2001:8B0:9D:1:0:0:0:1337 (talk) 19:47, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Battlefield 2 Sales are almost certainly lower than 11m
Sales numbers for BF2 have been updated and referenced wrongly. I'm 100% certain that the reference to 11m copies sold is a mistake. The source should almost certainly refer to Bad Company 2 not BF2. Sales numbers used to be in this artice and showed about 3m copies sold in the first 2-3 years after BF2 came out. Theres no way total sales are now 11mKristmace (talk) 00:26, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Diablo 3
Diablo 3 has sold 6.3 million units as of now, so I added it on this list. Official source: http://investor.activision.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=676112 Darthnixa (talk) 14:25, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

The quoted number of "30 million units" from the linked article does not specify if they are PC or PC + console units. Given the nature of the article and the context of the quote, PC + console seems like the most likely conclusion, thus implying that 30 million is incorrect for "PC Games". It also implies that the 30 million includes the expansion sales. Are other games including expansions in their total sales numbers? Purpleloropetalum (talk) 20:49, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok, this article says that "30 million" includes both expansion sales and original game sales, so at the very least it's nearly twice as high as it should be: http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/08/05/believe-it-or-not-diablo-3-is-now-the-10th-best-selling-video-game-of-all-time/ Purpleloropetalum (talk) 20:49, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Ragnarok Online?
The article clears says that subscribers are not to be counted, yet Ragnarok Online is listed as "(2 million North American subscribers)". I am unfamiliar with the game. Is a subscription for this a single time paid service, equivalent to a copy, or just a mistake? If someone more familiar could look into it, that would be great. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.179.19.105 (talk) 07:18, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Battlefield 3
What about this game? http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/15536754 say 10 million copies 72.53.153.82 (talk) 01:35, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That's across multiple platforms (PC, PS3, 360 and maybe iOS). This page is specifically for PC sales.  Alphathon    ( talk ) 11:36, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Bad Company 2, Battlefield 3, and Battlefield 2 most definitely sold more than 1 million games on PC. We've only got BF3 on this list though. BF2 has about 2.25 million http://www.gamermall.com/computer-games/reviews/battlefield-2.htm, BFBC2 has some 3.5 million online accounts registered for online play, though i'm not sure if that's multiple accounts per copy sold. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.177.237.66 (talk) 15:17, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Amnesia: The Dark Descent
http://frictionalgames.blogspot.com/2012/09/amnesia-two-years-later.html says 1.36 mln copies (Windows+Mac+Linux). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.134.226.81 (talk) 15:09, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Arma 2/Arma 2 Operation Arrowhead
As I understand it Bohemia hasn´t released any sales numbers for Arma 2 and it´s standalone expansion,Operation Arrowhead,but considering that on the official site of the DayZ mod there are over 1.3 Million unique legal users,both Arma 2 and Arma 2 OA have sold at least 1.3M copies each(obviously they sold more but that´s the only metric available),so I suppose both of them can be added to the list,either by listing each at 1.3M or,just like Guild Wars,putting both together at 2.6M Millions. -Both Arma 2 and Arma 2 OP are required to play the DayZ mod.

http://dayzmod.com/

Thanks.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.210.85.98 (talk) 22:06, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Minecraft: Release Date
I think it should be noted that although the "Release Date" of Minecraft was November 18th, 2012, it had been available for purchase for almost two years before that. I'm sure the count of Alpha and Beta purchasers can be found somewhere, too. (My point is that the release date, as listed in the article, makes the growth of Minecraft look faster than it actually was - although Skyrim is one week older, the purchases were actually made in a shorter amount of time, which you can't see in the table.) --DSGalaktos (talk) 11:35, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes check.svg Y Done  Alphathon    ( talk ) 14:02, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Just PC units
These sales figures look like they're including sales from all platforms, not just the PC versions. See this article, which breaks down a lot of sales figures into total and PC-only. I just fixed The Sims 2 number, but I'd like to adjust all numbers to include only PC units, if no one takes issue with that. —Torchiest talkedits 18:57, 18 January 2013 (UTC)


 * If any of the numbers contain other platforms then they should not be on here, so by all means go ahead if you find one. Make sure the figures are actually verifiable though. Also, you changed The Sims 2s PC sales to 13 million, but the source actually specifically says "At Least 6 Million PC (13 Million Copies Across All Platforms)". Also, they cite their own source for that figure to this press release, which as far as I can tell doesn't mention that figure at all, and Amazon reviews, which isn't a permissible source.  Alphathon '   ( talk ) 19:21, 18 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh, and one more note about editing this list - when you change a figure, make sure you change the sorting figure too. Your edit reads, but should read   (when using 13 million as the figure of course - it'd be   for 6 million).  Alphathon     ( talk ) 19:30, 18 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I meant that I'd corrected the number down based on that source, not that I'd made it PC only. I wanted to get some input before making any PC-only sales adjustments. Also sorry about the code fix; I didn't notice that when I cut and pasted. As for their source, I looked back through the history of The Sims 2 and found that it has referenced different press releases.  The current one in that article, and one this list had, is here.  It says, "The Sims 2 shipped in September 2004 with sales already topping 20M units worldwide, it was the best selling PC game of 2004." It later says, "Combined sales for the franchise are approximately 85M units life-to-date." The press release the new Tom's Hardware article I just added is referencing, and the last source in the main article, as shown on the gamespy site, says, "The Sims 2 shipped in September 2004 with sales already topping 13M units worldwide, it was the best selling PC game of 2004." That one later says, "Combined sales for the franchise are approximately 90M units life-to-date." It's a bit of a mess, with the numbers impossibly moving in opposite directions. The original 20 million number is more recent, I guess, but it almost certainly still includes other platforms and expansion packs in addition to the original games. —Torchiest talkedits 19:56, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Expansions?
Why are the expansions to existing games receiving their own listing? For example, those under Guild Wars, and all the World of Warcraft expansions? It makes no sense to list the expansions in addition to the core game. If you can't play one without owning the original it really shouldn't count as it's own listing, since technically it's the same game, but just additional content for it. Leitmotiv (talk) 21:14, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The expansions of World of Warcraft should be deleted, since everything except Cataclysm is additional content for the base game. The expansions can't be be played stand alone, so they shouldn't have their own rankings. It is also evident in that most of the expansions have the same sale rankings as the original vanilla WOW. That's because one is needed to play the other. Basically what we have now, is duplicate posts for World of Warcraft and they should be deleted. Leitmotiv (talk) 20:41, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Precision
In the table, sales are listed with a precision of up to 1000 (SimCity 2000). However, Minecraft sales are rounded to 100 000, even though the exact number of Minecraft sales is available. I think that for consistency, all numbers should be trimmed to 100 000, or more precise numbers should be added to Minecraft's entry. Which one is it going to be? —Fenhl 17:48, 19 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I've opted for the latter now. —Fenhl 19:07, 19 February 2013 (UTC)


 * And changed to the former as per (edit) and (edit). —Fenhl 23:38, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I personally feel that the precision for your edit of Minecraft sales (9.XXX) is not required. Especially since in past edits it seems that it was only done to bump it above another candidate on the list. I don't see the point behind these kind of edits unless there is favoritism involved. Additionally, having that kind of precision makes the need for more edits for all listed PC Games per consistency outlines. Having increased precision increases the work load which is very unappealing. In summary, a list of best-selling PC games that mostly deals with candidates in the millions, I think that those entries with over a million units sold, should be listed as X.X. If a tie happens, then another digit is not required, just a suitable source to put one over the other. If still no source is available, then an alphabetical sorting would suffice, since little is gained by having one candidate placed above another in the hierarchy of most sold games. Leitmotiv (talk) 16:53, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Skyrim
The data for Skyrim is not very accurate. The reference talk about 10 million in total sales including 14% of thoose sold for PC. That would mean 1.4 million instead of 10 million sold games of Skyrim for PC. Could that be true? Mason (talk) 19:06, 26 February 2013 (UTC)
 * That could be true, AFAIK. Also, some of the primary sources used on this page could be invalid sources. Anyone can boast any number of sales they want, but it should be independently verified. Leitmotiv (talk) 20:00, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Calculating PC sales from console sales
Djwastrel (talk) 22:18, 27 March 2013 (UTC) Is it a good idea calculating the PC sales of a game based on VGChartz numbers if we know the exact number of total copies sold (across all platforms)? As I know, VGChartz is a reliable source of sales figures on console games, since they are tracking retail sales and almost all AAA console titles are sold in retail. For example: City Interactive announced on their Facebook page that Sniper: Ghost warrior has sold 3 million copies. The VGchartz data shows that around 1.6 million copies have sold on Xbox and PS3: http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=ghost+warrior So there must be at least 1.4 million copies that were sold on PC. Another Example: Square Enix Announced that the new Tomb Raider has sold 3.4 million copies so far. According to the VGChartz data, the game sold slightly less than 1.4 M on consoles: http://www.vgchartz.com/gamedb/?name=tomb+raider ,so 2 million copies are sold on PC.
 * "As I know, VGChartz is a reliable source… " Well that's your first mistake right there - they aren't reliable for any figures.  Alphathon  /'æɫ.fə.θɒn/ ( talk ) 01:36, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Why aren't sales from digital distribution outlets such as Steam taken into account?
I see no reason why these sales shouldn't be counted. --5ives (talk) 06:58, 25 June 2013 (UTC)


 * Me neither. As long a source is valid it can be used to cite these statistics. Probably no one has gotten around to it. Go forth and be BOLD! Leitmotiv (talk) 17:15, 25 June 2013 (UTC)


 * It's not so much that we don't take them into account, its that we can't take them into account. I'm not sure about EA with Origin, but Valve don't release Steam sales figures so they aren't readily available. There is nothing stopping the game devs from releasing the numbers (assuming Valve tells them, which I assume they do) but I don't think I've ever seen any dev or publisher do so, or at least not explicitly. It's certainly possible that some of the figures listed do include digital sales, but we have no way of knowing one way or another.  Alphathon  /'æɫ.fə.θɒn/ ( talk ) 12:59, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Calculating sales
A note placed for World of Warcraft states that Asian sales don't count because they have a different business model so therefore subscribers can't not be calculated in the total. I don't see how that applies. Subscribers are people who bought the game regardless if they purchased a "retail copy." Minecraft never went "retail" per se, yet total online says are calculated. What am I missing? Leitmotiv (talk) 18:10, 9 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the difference is that in many Asian countries users don't have to buy the game to subscribe, which I believe is in some way related to internet cafés (I don't know the details, I just vaguely remember a previous discussion on the topic on here somewhere, probably either on this talk page or Talk:List of best-selling video games). It isn't a matter of retail vs. online copies, a different model entirely is used.  Alphathon  /'æɫ.fə.θɒn/ ( talk ) 13:05, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Garry's Mod
http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/03/16/garrys-mod-has-sold-1-4-million-copies-garry-releases-sales-history-to-prove-it/

Garry's Mod has 1.4M confirmed copies sold (as of last year, by Garry). I believe it counts as a game. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZpankR (talk • contribs) 02:15, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Added. --5ives (talk) 03:33, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Tomb Raider and Call of Duty
07-08-2013 Tomb Raider by Core Design (released 1996) is one of the best selling games of all time, collectively for all formats the first game is reported to have sold at least 100 million units. None of the 9 main Tomb Raider titles are found in this list and probably several would be in it? Also, there is no Call of Duty games listed and Modern Warfare/Modern Warfare 2 is another that should be in the top 5 of this list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.100.54.203 (talk) 22:12, 7 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds great, but anything that is in this list needs to be cited with a source. Make sure your suggestions also aren't including sales from consoles and other non-pc platforms. Leitmotiv (talk) 23:38, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

The new Tomb Raider (2013) is reported to have sold over 4 million copies worldwide
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/08/23/tomb-raider-sales-top-4-million This should be added to the list. Don't you guys agree? Jonipoon (talk) 22:14, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * No, because this figure includes console sales as stated in the source. Leitmotiv (talk) 22:42, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Why aren't digital copies included?
Seriously... I would think most people use steam and other digital forms to buy games now. This article is completely out of date by adding that conclusion. 50.170.52.184 (talk) 12:42, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

The Sims 2
The Sims 2 source for 20 Million says "The Sims 2 shipped in September 2004 with sales already topping 20M units worldwide, it was the best selling PC game of 2004", it doesn't state that all 20 Million copies sold were for PC, since it then goes on about Sims 2 Expansions up to 2007, after previously having said "The Sims franchise celebrated its fifth anniversary in February." Even though The Sims came out in February 2000, and the article was written in March 2007, which would make The Sims franchise be on its SEVENTH anniversary, not it's fifth. That it was the best selling PC game of 2004, I'm not disputing, but the fact that it says in a 2007 article, sales have topped 20M units worldwide, and the fact it came out for Gamecube/GBA/PS2/Xbox and PSP in 2005, 2 years before the article was written, is there any proof that the 20Million figure is for PC sales only, and not sales over ALL platforms? Lmcgregoruk (talk) 20:36, 8 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't have any sources myself as this is not my area of expertise. But if what you say is true, then it looks like the Sims 2's place in the list could be heavily scrutinized. I've seen many games on this list that utilize cross platform sales. I've had to remove those citations and the games too, since no PC-strict source could be provided. Leitmotiv (talk) 01:23, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Where's Sierras Kings Quest 4, 5, 6?
Hello wiki users. As you know I know the best selling PC games that are missing from the best PC games. They are Sierras Kings Quest series. Roberta Williams and Ken Williams first success was from the old apple computer game "Mystery House" released in 1980. It was successful that Ken and Roberta Williams were able to move into a log cabin in the mountains away from Los Angeles I was the first best selling series from Roberta Williams. She also made "The Wizard and the Princess", "Time zone" and "Asteroid".

Her first bestselling adventure game was Kings Quest I original 1983, followed by the sequels Kings Quest II 1985, Kings Quest III 1987. But her best selling game was Kings Quest IV 1988 and then she revolutionized the game with Kings Quest V 1990 and the best one ever was Kings Quest VI 1992. Even the gamespot website called it the greatest game of all time. Also Kings Quest VII 1994 was the last best game but after Kings Quest VIII came out in 1997 it was mediocre and that ended the series.

Anyways I want to include Sierras bestselling Kings Quest computer games because they were popular back in the 1980s and 1990s. Let me know if I can include it because it was my favorite games me and my friends and family ever played in the adventure era games. CrosswalkX (talk) 00:44, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * If you have a legitimate source that quotes sales figures for the PC, we can add it in. If not, there's no point to add them. Btw, my favorite was no 3. Leitmotiv (talk) 08:22, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Ok here's some of the website links to prove to you that Kings Quest 6 was indeed the best game ever. The gamespot website includes Kings Quest 6 as one of the greatest games of all time. [] Also the 1up website talks about Kings Quest Retrospective and how successful the Kings Quest series was. [] Also Peter Spears of Questbuster Magazine said "This game is proof positive that the era of CD Gaming is upon us. Kill your hard drive!" Also the gamefaq users gave Kings Quest 6 favorable reviews at [] Also at adventure gaming classic website they gave it a favorable review at []

I hope that those website links are proof enough to convince you that Kings Quest 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 definitely need to be on "List of best-selling PC games" Let me know if the Kings Quest series especially 6 will be in Best PC games ever because Kings Quest 6 was the most popular 1990s computer game of all time. CrosswalkX (talk) 02:21, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Why was the best games Kings Quest VI and VII deleted?

Dear wiki users, as you know Kings Quest VI and VII was voted for best games of all time, also Kings Quest VII sold for over 2.5 million copies. I would like to know why was my contributing article for Kings Quest VI and VII was rejected and deleted.

Kings Quest VI happens to be my favorite PC game I've played as a kid and I still play from time to time. I know you have strict rules concerning best computer games ever. But can you please bring back Kings Quest VI and VII for bestselling PC list? Also I would also like other Sierra Online computer games included in this best computer game article called Quest for Glory III Wages of War and Space Quest IV included because those are the best PC games ever.

Please reply to my forum and let's work it out because I don't want them to be forgotten. I'll try hard to be a better wikipedia contributor. I would like it if you would do the article for me because it's hard for me to do it professionally. CrosswalkX (talk) 22:45, 16 May 2014 (UTC)


 * CrosswalkX, if you had looked at the reversion notes to your edit you would know why King's Quest VI and VII were deleted. Here are my notes for your convenience: "undid King's Quest entries. No source provided for 5, source for 6 cited no sales numbers." You cited nothing to back up the sales. Please provide a source next time so it can stick. Leitmotiv (talk) 22:11, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't understand the rules. I really wish I could find information on the web on how many copies the King's Quest VI and VII games were sold because Kings Quest VI was the best PC game of all time. I would appreciate it if someone else could Contribute King's Quest VI for me because I still enjoy Kings Quest VI and VII to this very day.CrosswalkX (talk) 03:22, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I found one source saying the series sold a total of 9 million copies across all games. A number of sources say the first game in the series sold half a million copies. The King's Quest wiki says KQ7 sold 3 million copies, but it doesn't provide a source. —Torchiest talkedits 03:57, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't be surprised it King's Quest sold 9 million, but I think they are probably lower. Just a guess. 3 million sounds about right, but we need a proper source. Go with the most reliable source if you wish to enter it in the list. Post edit: 9 million copies is for all of the King's Quest games. We need separate numbers for each game. Leitmotiv (talk) 04:46, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah I know. I was just providing some framing for finding per-game sales. I found another source that said each game sold more than the previous, but again without hard numbers. Here's a press release from 1994, before KQ7 came out, saying the franchise had so far sold 3 million copies. That would average half a million per game. I also found an archived link to a Roberta Williams interview in which she says that Phantasmagoria sold about one million copies, something none of the King's Quest games ever did. This was in 1999, after all eight games had come out. Now it could be that since then, fifteen whole years, some games made it over a million units, but that's from the horse's mouth. —Torchiest talk<sub style="margin-left:-3ex;">edits 12:12, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Are the ars Steam numbers accurate enough to be used as a reference?
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/04/steam-gauge-addressing-your-questions-and-concerns/ Claims to have a 10% margin of error from numbers they have managed to confirmed with actual devs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.98.132.156 (talk) 01:35, 17 April 2014 (UTC) \
 * Are any of your edits including expansions? Leitmotiv (talk) 16:58, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I think it depends on how large the number is. If it's 10 million, it's either -/+ 10% which still makes it onto the list. Leitmotiv (talk) 16:13, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

I think they are,they are counting the owners of the games and even though it seems to be a small margin of error it seems that the margin is lowballing the numbers,so the games sold at the very least what is shown there,but most likely even more. http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/04/steam-gauge-addressing-your-questions-and-concerns/2/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.102.203.176 (talk) 18:43, 18 April 2014 (UTC)


 * No, they are very extrapolated estimates. They are way off, also steam community pages are not all activated, only 10 of the 25 million accounts back in Jan 2010 had pages, that's less than half. So I imagine the statistics are skewed towards social/multiplayer pages. If Valve ever decide to release their sales figures, then we can add them.--Vaypertrail (talk) 18:45, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Expansion packs
As a response to User:Leitmotiv's revert: Expansion packs are separate releases with their own sales data and they should have their own entries. If the sources treat the expansion as a separate product it should be listed. Maybe there should be a separate table for them. Same should apply to for example compilations.
 * "it is redundant because its more content for the same game."

I don't see any consensus on this talk page, only your comments on it. No one owns an article here. --Mika1h (talk) 18:46, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
 * "Also this list does not include expansions."
 * This article absolutely should include separately-sold expansion packs. If it makes the table too messy they can be their own table, but I see no good reason to exclude them. -- Pres N  22:03, 30 April 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see why this article should include expansions. The name of the article is "Best selling PC games" not "Best selling PC games and their expansions." Any expansion is just an extension of the original game. Its sales are inherently dependent upon sales of the original, and can never exceed the original's. That makes listing the expansion redundant and unnecessary. I'm not arguing that expansions don't have their own sales data, because obviously they do. But, that data is dependent upon the original core release of any game it expands upon. You can't play expansions by themselves. They are not a separate PC game. It's just a second helping of the same game. Will Diablo III: Reaper of Souls ever outsell Diablo 3? No, it's impossible. So comparing Reaper of Souls to say Diablo II, tells us nothing. Expansion sales are only interesting when compared to other expansions, because that way you keep the context intact. Context, context, context.


 * I'm open to the idea of a separate table but that conflates the problem with having to rename the article. Leitmotiv (talk) 22:22, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

I already said this at WPVG talk, but adding the expansion pack sales will very much enrich the article for the reader. I don't care how it is done, but I do feel they belong. Chambr (talk) 00:32, 1 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Why not create a separate list subsection for game expansions? Can we find a compromise that suits everybody involved? -- benlisquare T•C•E 05:13, 1 May 2014 (UTC)


 * As I've said, I'm open to an inclusion of an additional table. Though I'm still of the opinion they don't help the main article in differentiating best-selling games from one another. They might enrich the article for context, but only as an adjunct. It's not like you can add the sales of the expansions to core games and determine some additional understanding. If anything it confuses the matter. The context is best when comparing expansions to expansions to determine the best selling expansion of all time. If you are trying to figure out if a certain expansion sold more than a different game you lose context. The core game may/may not have sold more than the game, but if the expansion sold more/less than that other game, it is hard to say why or how that is important and under what circumstances. Leitmotiv (talk) 07:13, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes, expansion pack sales needing adding.--Vaypertrail (talk) 08:41, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
 * This is not a voting area, but a place to discuss your opinion. Could you elaborate on why they need adding? Leitmotiv (talk) 14:33, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Unclear Valve figures
I have noticed the source used for many of Valve's games may not be accurate. "it was not specified if the figures of multiplatform games--Half-Life, Half-Life 2, The Orange Box--included both PC and console sales, or just PC. The entries sourced to this are: Hopefully Valve will release unambiguous figures, one day.--Vaypertrail (talk) 22:59, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) Half-Life (video game)
 * 2) Counter-Strike
 * 3) Half-Life 2: Episode One
 * 4) Counter-Strike: Source and Counter-Strike: Condition Zero ok because the figures were released before it was published on other platforms

Half-Life 2 sales figure wrong?
Does this source mean just for PC, or for PC and Xbox? "2011: 'Its sci-fi shoot-’em-up thriller Half-Life 2 has sold 12 million copies since 2004 and is the highest-rated PC game on the Web site Metacritic.'"

Game was released in 2004.

Although I am sure it has sold millions, it appears we have no way to confirm this or get any accurate PC figure except the low 1.7 million.--Vaypertrail (talk) 23:56, 3 May 2014 (UTC)
 * 2014: The arstechnica sources estimate 8 million on PC ,
 * 2008: 6.5 million (unclear if PC and/or consoles)
 * 2006: 4 million (unclear if PC and/or xbox)
 * 2005: 1.7 million (PC only)


 * By looking at the quote you provided, it doesn't specifically say. 20 million could be exclusive or inclusive, so it's not an eligible source. Leitmotiv (talk) 17:11, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
 * 20 million, where did that come from? That's not in the list of possible figures I've listed.--Vaypertrail (talk) 08:52, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure! Meant 12 million. Leitmotiv (talk) 17:32, 5 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Apologies for accepting the edit, on further reading I see that the 12million includes Xbox sales. There are several implications of over 3million on steam but I can't find a relevant source.&#32;SPACKlick (talk) 15:18, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

this list is completely fudged
i remember sims 1 having over 20 million copies sold yet it isnt listed at all. alot of these numbers are manure (almost like blizzard edited the page) and none of it should stand. the only reason i even checked back on this page was to see how far minecraft had to go to catch the sims.. and its not even listed! 174.59.57.55 (talk) 10:59, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
 * This list is backed up by sources that are all cited. If you have a source and would like to cite it, feel free. Leitmotiv (talk) 14:30, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I looked at these Sims sources, and the figure included console sales and or the sales of expansion packs.--Vaypertrail (talk) 13:20, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Need Better Sources for games
I started going through the list of games and the vast majority in the top 10 or 20 don't specifically state PC sales and may include a variety of other sales from video game consoles, Macintosh, or may also include sales from expansions packs. As it stands now, there is so much mess and unsubstantiated listings in this article that it's pretty much useless. I'm half tempted to delete ANY listing with no strong source stating strictly PC sales. As it is, I have a deleted a few that had very weak sources.

Without some serious work on this list, its value and accuracy is very, very low. Leitmotiv (talk) 19:20, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I must be a dumbass. I see Linux and Mac are acceptable for PC sales. ok... I undid any errors. Found 2 or 3. But many still didn't differentiate between mobile apps (where applicable) and console versions. Many listed have console versions for many systems including: Playstation, N64, SNES, NES, Genesis, Saturn, Jaguar, Sega Master System, and so on. I've noted those in the "better source needed" tag when applicable. Leitmotiv (talk) 19:37, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm done verifying all the sources in the main list. Many dead links. Many sources that don't clarify "PC sales only" when the wiki article for said game states multiple platforms. If any of these dead links cannot be replaced or a similar source found as substitute, the entries are eligible for deletion. Similarly, if any of the "better source needed" entries remain that way for too long of a time, they should be pruned. Leitmotiv (talk) 19:38, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

WoW and WarCraft
I agree with Mika1h on this. WoW is considered a continuation of the WarCraft franchise, and linking that series seems appropriate to me. —<B>Torchiest</B> talk<sub style="margin-left:-3ex;">edits 04:54, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Other than the story, the games of World of Warcraft and and Warcraft are worlds apart. One is a MMORPG and the other is an RTS series. While the name "Warcraft" is a franchise used to sell games for its popularity, they are not the same series. If a person playing Warcraft III jumps into WoW expecting the same experience, they are going to be sorely disappointed. Leitmotiv (talk) 17:01, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * That doesn't really matter. There are plenty of game series in which different installments had significantly varying gameplay, such that they even went into different genres, or even different media.  Also, if you look at the main WarCraft series page, it specifically talks about WoW as the latest installment. It only makes sense to be consistent across articles. —<B>Torchiest</B> talk<sub style="margin-left:-3ex;">edits 18:48, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * You really shouldn't cite a wiki to prove your point. Give us a source that says it is the continuation of the series. The wiki also mentions that it is a "franchise" in regards to WoW. That's not enough to say it is a part of the same series. That's like saying The Clones Wars is a part of the same series as the Star Wars movies. While both are a part of the Star Wars franchise, The Clone Wars is not a part of the movie series. What if Blizzard released another RTS Warcraft? I agree that consistency is good, but so far all I see is a series of RTS Warcraft games and a standalone MMORPG Warcraft game with many expansions. Leitmotiv (talk) 19:15, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * This is getting ridiculous, here is the official Warcraft 3 page: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/games/war3/ "A generation before the events of World of Warcraft begin" --Mika1h (talk) 19:56, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think storyline is enough to consider a part of the same series, for reasons explained above. Leitmotiv (talk) 22:32, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Well the New York Times suggests that all of the games and indeed an upcoming film are part of the same series here, but they're not necessarily experts at video games. We could look to Chris Remo who places WoW within "the overarching Warcraft real-time strategy game series" here, but he is a third party VG reporter and may not properly represent the parent company's true intentions here. So perhaps we can gain some insight from Mike Morhaime who has been widely quoted as saying that "Warlords of Draenor gives players a chance to take a commanding role in one of the Warcraft series' most crucial conflicts." So it sounds like at least that installment of WoW may be part of the Warcraft series. This is kind of a weird smattering of sources covering a wide scope but hopefully they will help clarify the issue or suggest a path to move forward. -Thibbs (talk) 03:38, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Thibbs, thanks for attempting to find sources. The New York Times source, as you said, has nothing definitive on the realm of gaming; especially concerning their statement: "the Warcraft series has been widely described as the most heavily played of the multiplayer online games." There is only one online Warcraft game as far as I am aware of (I'm no expert either). But this statement is a clear sign he is not referring to the previous RTS Warcraft games, and is therefore useless to us because those games were not online. Chris Remo seems to corroborate what I'm saying in that the RTS is a series and is not inclusive of the MMORPG. I'm certainly okay with a secondary source that has some legitimacy to it. As for WoD, that is an expansion based off of WoW and doesn't constitute a series of games, though it is part of a series of expansions for the solitary game. However if there were three or more online WoW games, I would qualify that as a series. Good effort, thank you. Leitmotiv (talk) 04:58, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
 * No problem. The way I read the NYT and Remo sources, though, the previous RTS Warcraft games are in fact explicitly referred to. For instance the relevant section of the NYT piece begins "Blizzard Entertainment, which introduced its first Warcraft game in 1994..." and Remo's use of the word "overarching" to connect the RTS elements to the MMO elements of the Warcraft series suggests to me that considers then part of the same greater series. Morhaime's description of the WoD expansion explicitly places it within the "Warcraft series," though perhaps only in plot. There are plenty of sources like this where the games are kind of vaguely referred to as a series without any bombshell comments like "World of Warcraft belongs in the Warcraft series of games." I think the same thing would be noticed when trying to find proof that Mario 64 belongs in the Mario series. It might be that the fact is so intuitively obvious that nobody has gone out of their way to cover it. Is there anything apart from game design and presumed user experience that suggests to you that World of Warcraft is not in fact part of the Warcraft series that it may borrow its plot and name from? -Thibbs (talk) 12:27, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
 * This may just be an issue of semantics. I think the operative word here is "series" and may be confused with "franchise." Yes, World of Warcraft shares the same name with Warcraft and is a part of the same fictional universe, but is the game truly a part of the Real-Time Strategy series that preceded it? The name for the game doesn't have a sequential moniker. They are totally different experiences on many levels, which I don't think I need to list here. The only thing they have in common is the story and the name. When you compare and review these games, you are comparing fruit to vegetables and any comparison gains you little insight other than to note that they are dramatically different from one another. I like your Mario analogy and get your point, but I think there is a natural progression in your example since all Mario games are considered platform games with technological improvements along the way. I think little is gained by conflating WoW with Warcraft, because it's already obvious they are a part of the same franchise. However, I feel more is gained by making obvious the distinction between the two. Leitmotiv (talk) 13:25, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I understand your point. I guess the question becomes how to draw the line between members of different series within the same franchise. Is this a question of canon defined by the owner of the franchise or is it merely a descriptive concept defined by RS critics and commentators? For we as editors to use game mechanics and genre to define a series seems like it treads too close to WP:OR for comfort. Of course another solution might be possible... Would it work to just change the column header labeled "series" in the table to "franchise"? Given the frequent confusion between the idea of series and franchise this may serve the same goal as the current column does without sacrificing accuracy. -Thibbs (talk) 14:00, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah you're right... this really can become a matter of the wikipedia user base defining what a series or a franchise is and then going through games (or other things for that matter) with a fine-toothed comb to say yay or nay to such things as Star Wars: Rebel Assault. Or in the case of primary sources defining it for themselves, it seems they would always err on the side of everything being in the series so as to maintain IP integrity. Just a guess anyhow. I have no interest in a definition discussion of that magnitude. It's easy just to plop in the word franchise and move on. Leitmotiv (talk) 18:03, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
 * ...Why is no one mentioning that the title contains the word "Warcraft" and it's by the same developer and publisher? What more evidence is needed? Tezero (talk) 06:44, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Uh, yeah, that's where I'm coming from too. This sort of thing happens all the time in video games. Different off-shoot, same umbrella series. This is no different than Final Fantasy and titles like Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles or Final Fantasy Explorers. Different types of games from the main numbered titles, but still obviously part if the over-arching Final Fantasy series.  Sergecross73   msg me  16:28, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Uh... yeah, you are mistaking series with franchise. The main Final Fantasy series is currently on... what I dunno, XIII? There is such a thing as subseries, spin-off series, etc. but they are under, as you said, an "umbrella" which is the franchise. Your examples clearly state that Crystal Chronicles is a spin-off and Explorers apparently is going to be a subseries. Either way, this thread has already concluded prior to your entry and the point is moot. Leitmotiv (talk) 23:04, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that changing the heading from "series" to "franchise" is the best way to go. Any other way likely involves some sort of synthesis or original research. Zell Faze (talk) 21:37, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Sims 2 Sales figures
The Sims 2 sales figures are inconsistent with the rest of wikipedia and reference a dead link as source. Both the Sims 2 and list of best selling games pages list the game as having sold 20 million units. While I do not know what percentage of these sales are PC only, it is likely more than what is listed. The source used in this article claims that there are over 13 million units sold overall, which is far off from the 20 million listed. More importantly, the source here links to a dead article as its source. Considering that EA said the Sims had sold over 100 million copies before Sims 3 was even released, I dont find it hard to believe Sims 2 sold 20 million copies.Dudelets (talk) 21:01, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't really believe one way or another what The Sims 1 or 2 sold. It has to a have a clear source stating what it sold, and in what medium. If you have that source that fits that bill, then by all means edit away. A lot of the sources on the main page for the rest of the listings have bad sources that aren't clear, or as you said are a dead link. I did most of that work. There's plenty of stuff that anyone can step in, and search for clear/concise sources and cite them properly on this page. As it is now, it's really a joke. Leitmotiv (talk) 04:51, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Last Ninja
4mio. in total... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_Ninja --178.190.128.87 (talk) 23:17, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Torchlight II
Source: http://www.polygon.com/2013/7/25/4556436/torchlight-2-sold-more-than-two-million-copies — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.153.51.113 (talk) 14:48, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Baldur's Gate series
Based on this page by Bioware, http://web.archive.org/web/20080409131841/http://www.bioware.com/bioware_info/about/, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 should both be on the list.

Both BG1 and 2 are reported as selling "over 2 million copies". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.191.19.67 (talk) 22:19, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Close, but the ref you provided says 5 million for a conglomerate of the series. There is no telling which of the games sold over a 1 million. Well, except when you get to the separate listing for Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn which is noted as 2 million. Feel free to edit the latter on in. Leitmotiv (talk) 22:56, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Free to play games
Is it at all possible to integrate information about free to play games here? I feel like this page kind of acts like a measure of popularity of PC games, yet it ignores some free games like League of Legends and MMOs. Maybe there just be a new article created called most popular PC games?--Prisencolinensinainciusol (talk) 00:02, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, this page is one measure for the popularity of PC games - those games requiring a point of sale purchase. If you want to make a page for free downloadable games, go for it. Leitmotiv (talk) 19:46, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Total War: Rome II, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_War:_Rome_II#Sales

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-05-09-how-are-segas-video-games-selling

It says in this article that Rome II has sold 1.13 million, but it isn't on the list. I'd edit it myself, but even when I edit correct info, with sources, into articles it usually gets reverted. I think Empire Total War sold more than a million too, but I'm not sure and can't be bothered to look it up.

86.26.241.39 (talk) 20:22, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

30 million Diablo units
What does "Diablo III has now sold-through over 30 million units life-to-date globally" refer to in the reference of the Diablo III sales number? Specifically the term "units"? I am happy taking Diablo down to the original number, but when an article specifically says "Diablo III" has sold "30 million units" and it is only for sale on a PC, and it doesn't mention anything about expansions included in that number, what are we to make of it?

Edit: Actually, this game is available on Playstation and Xbox so this reference does not specifically say just PC, so it is invalid as a reference on this page, and I will revert to the old number. Leitmotiv (talk) 23:37, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

CS:GO
Has had 700,000 people concurrently play the game, yet is not listed here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.253.154.248 (talk) 05:38, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
 * This list doesn't care about how many people are playing a game, only in sales figures. Also the cutoff is 1 million. Leitmotiv (talk) 10:11, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 4 one external links on List of best-selling PC games. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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 * Checked. -- ferret (talk) 23:12, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 18 one external links on List of best-selling PC games. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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3 failures: -- ferret (talk) 23:18, 2 March 2016 (UTC)
 * should have been
 * is not archived at Wayback.
 * is the correct page, but because this content is a flash video, the archive link does not help. GameTrailers has removed many of their videos, so this one is lost I think.