Talk:List of best-selling PC games/Archive 2

The Sims (2000) sales
this page says only 6.3 million sold, but on the sims page it says it sold 16 million copies by 2005. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.42.118 (talk) 19:29, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * The 2005 press release says The Sims sold 16 million copies by 2005. This is the same source used in the main article. The 6.3 million is a 2002 figure. -- ferret (talk) 19:47, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
 * The 16 million games isn't described as PC-only. That seems to be across all platforms. Separating out the sales between PC and consoles has been a perennial problem with The Sims game. I did a lot of research on this a few years ago and was always confounded by the ambiguous press releases. I did some digging just now though, and found this, which says that as of March 2015, The Sims had sold 11.24 million copies on PC. —Torchiest talkedits 20:16, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Undertale?
The article for Undertale specifically mentions it's sold over a million copies, so it should be on the list; however, there aren't any sales numbers that I could find to use as a reference besides SteamSpy, which is inaccurate, so if it's going to be on this list, than we need to find more reliable sales figures. Anybody have suggestions, or maybe found accurate sales numbers for it? IAmACowWhoIsMad (talk) 04:28, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
 * You'll have to be more specific about "The article for Undertale." But, you're right, Steamspy is not a valid source since it doesn't deal with sales figures, only the number of users. Leitmotiv (talk) 05:08, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I meant the Wikipedia article for Undertale, as it says, "The game has sold over a million copies". That would be a reason to put it on this list, since the list starts additions at a million copies, but I can't find any actual statistics for Undertale sales that are reliable, so I was hoping to find someone who knew where to find some better statistics. IAmACowWhoIsMad (talk) 04:40, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

The Sims 4 5 million copies sold?
The only number you're getting is from a pin, that has never been confirmed:

http://i.imgur.com/meaHwN3.jpg <- developer saying that number was never confirmed. https://twitter.com/SimGuruNinja/status/740210283310784512/photo/1 <- the pin is grey, meaning not achieved https://twitter.com/SimGuruNinja/status/741383489589633024?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw <- developer never directly answered and said that it was copies sold — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.98.2.69 (talk) 16:43, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 December 2016
The list of top selling PC games does not include Overwatch. The list of top selling multiplatform games does. Not sure if there is any way to figure out how much were sales on the PC vs consoles, but I suspect that there has to be at least 10 million, if not 15 million copies sold on the PC. If anyone could do the digging and update, that would be awesome. Great work guys. 72.164.194.2 (talk) 14:42, 23 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. It's been discussed before. Essentially, we know that Overwatch has sold some 15 million copies. What we don't know is how many are on PC. It's almost certainly over 5 million, but we don't have a source, and WP:V requires it. -- ferret (talk) 15:18, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 December 2016
Minecraft has now sold 25 million copies. https://minecraft.net/en/stats/ Regablith (talk) 01:34, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  03:54, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Overwatch
Looked at the list and saw it was grossly outdated, especially on Overwatch which has sold over 25 Million copies, so I'm requesting that it be added to the list to keep it up-to-date. Viljormur (talk) 12:17, 5 February 2017 (UTC)


 * The problem is we don't know how many copies have been sold for PC. The 25 million total includes Xbox One and PS4. -- ferret (talk) 15:17, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 March 2017 concerning Sims 4
It's never been confirmed Sims 4 has sold 5 million copies. The source refers to a button tweeted by a developer, mentioning 5M. It has never been confirmed by EA though this concerns actual sales figures (the button could refer to many things). The tweet given as a source doesn't confirm this either; it's a rather vague and dodging reply to a fan. EA in fact has never revealed any sales figures concerning Sims 4 so far. Starry Night (talk) 18:13, 6 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Yellow check.svg Partly done: Added [better source needed] tag.
 * At this stage there has not been any confirmed numbers, however it is a widely accepted statistic. —   IVORK  Discuss 06:08, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 March 2017
Counter-Strike has clearly taken over all the PC games in sales. Minecraft currently has about 25 million+ in sales and Counter Strike has about 28 million+ in sales. Source: http://steamspy.com/app/730

Counter-Strike should get a bump on the top of the list.

Thank You. SAL2K (talk) 18:22, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Steamspy is an unreliable source and represents ownership estimates, not copies sold. -- ferret (talk) 18:25, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Highly inaccurate article - needs fixing or maybe it's time to nominate for deletion? - 1 April 2017
The data in this article is wildly inaccurate, inconsistent and far from complete. It should certainly not rank titles by the number of sales if the only acceptable sources are essentially old news articles from various random sources. It's currently presenting inaccurate information in a format that suggests it has substance behind it and I've already seen people quoting this article as if its fact elsewhere. One solution would be to remove the "total copies sold" column completely and merely have this as a list of games selling more than 1 million copies (as titled), and order it alphabetically or by date of release. The "total copies sold" can just become a "references" list - otherwise it's misleading.

Otherwise perhaps this article should be nominated for deletion on the grounds of verifiability? - DomUK (talk) 13:39, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

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Sorting the table is not working properly
Sorting by number of games sold does not work. Can someone who knows how tables work figure it out? suggest having one column showing numbers by million, and a second column that collects all references in from a single row of a game. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.38.221.8 (talk) 19:47, 20 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Fixed. People had updated figures without updating the sort key. -- ferret (talk) 19:57, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Final Fantasy VII
According to the wiki page, Final Fantasy VII has sold over a million copies for the pc. But it's old data, and I couldn't find anything recent. 50.64.119.38 (talk) 07:44, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 October 2017
Change PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds total copies sold to 16 million 2A00:23C4:1686:500:BD0C:233A:4C6E:BB2F (talk) 21:47, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 23:26, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Is this link a reliable source?..(it's just one of many reporting 16 million). https://steamdb.info/app/578080/graphs/ 86.171.175.148 (talk) 22:22, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Steamspy is not reliable. Owning a game and buying a game are not the same thing. Did all these owners get the game for free? Leitmotiv (talk) 22:55, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The game is not available for free..it's priced at US$29.99. The same source that quotes 10,000,000 sales and is accepted here is now reporting 13 million sales. http://uk.businessinsider.com/playerunknowns-battlegrounds-sales-pubg-player-stats-2017-10 86.171.175.148 (talk) 13:51, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Steamspy isn't reliable for hard sales, period. Because BlueHole frequently releases updates on their sales, we try to stick to the official numbers. BusinessInsider doesn't directly attribute the 13 million to BlueHole, but other sources do. I've updated the figure. -- ferret (talk) 15:37, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Nihlus  03:08, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 November 2017
I request the change of the Object 'Undertale' in the 'List of best-selling PC games' Please change Total Copies sold: 1 million --> Total Copies sold: 3 million Also please change Genre: Roleplaying --> Genre: Indie, RPG

I also request a added game:

Title: ShellShock Live Total Copies sold: 1 million Sales Breakdown: N/A Franchise: ShellShock Live Release Date: March 11, 2015 Genre: Action, Indie, MMO, Strategie, Early Access Developer: kChamp Games Publisher: kChamp Games Daniel J14 (talk) 12:50, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -- ferret (talk) 13:29, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds
PUBG has reached 20 million copies sold on Steam.

https://twitter.com/PLAYERUNKNOWN/status/927933164550541313 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pongsifu (talk • contribs) 02:02, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 November 2017
PlayerUnknown Battlegrounds has now sold over 20 million copies. http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-11-07-playerunknowns-battlegrounds-has-now-sold-over-20-million-copies DarkMC101 (talk) 21:05, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done -- ferret (talk) 21:29, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 November 2017 concerning Rust
The number of copies sold needs to be updated for Rust. The official Rust Twitter account posted a more up-to-date sales figure of 5.2 million in March of 2017. Sk33ny (talk) 10:44, 2 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Twitter is not a reliable source especially when it is the official account of the subject. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 13:52, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * It's interesting you quote reliable sources but fail to understand its content. But that goes for a lot of people not understanding when it is appropriate to use primary sources. Anyway, your own reference explicitly says the opposite of what you just said: "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves" (bolding mine) and then states this pertains to sources from "Twitter, Tumblr, and Facebook." This Twitter source is perfectly fine to cite in the main article. Leitmotiv (talk) 19:07, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
 * So is it possible to have this information edited? Sk33ny (talk) 21:52, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ With Gamesindustry.biz secondary source. -- ferret (talk) 03:22, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 November 2017
I'd like to request that Counter-strike global offensive was added to this list. Wikilink: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-Strike:_Global_Offensive The game currently has (at the time of typing this.) 36,960,639 sold copies on steam. (Source: https://steamdb.info/app/730/graphs/) This would place the game well over minecraft, terraria and playerunknowns battlegrounds. 90.228.241.63 (talk) 12:44, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: See the existing sections above about CS:GO and Steamspy. -- ferret (talk) 12:47, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Would this secondary source meet the criteria here and the limitations on SteamSpy at WP:VG/RS? -- ferret (talk) 12:58, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I find it funny that the source itself notes the numbers are sketchy to within in a certain degree of error. I'm not sure why, but using a middle man that cites Steam Spy sales estimates as legit is okay, though a little odd. Regardless, the source looks fine to use according to the situational sources notes and limitations. Proving sales is really hard nowadays as financial data is often held closely to a company's vest, unless it's new data to encourage third-party investment. So this article's top achievers have wildly inaccurate data, while the bottom half is probably more accurate. Leitmotiv (talk) 20:09, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 12 January 2018
Positions should be changed. Player unknowns battleground has now sold more units than Minecraft (27 mil to be exact) and Counter Strike Global Offensive has sold almost 40 mil units. Therefore Counter Strike Global Offensive should be stated as the first game and PUBG second. I'll just add statistic links. http://steamspy.com/app/578080     http://steamspy.com/app/730 Jeykal (talk) 15:23, 12 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: See numerous discussions on SteamSpy above. PUBG releases regular official updates, we'll update when they next do. -- ferret (talk) 15:27, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

csgo mention constantly removed
I added a mention of cs:go being the best selling game OAT according to steamspy, but that steamspy is unreliable and cannot be used for the list. for some reason when I or others have done this before the inclusion has been removed. I think it's intelectually dishonest to remove the mention, which has been properly disclaimered — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alec935 (talk • contribs) 10:11, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
 * There's absolutely no reason to call out a single game, note it for the number of people playing it, citing it with steamspy (which has been talked about at length here), and putting it right at the top of the article in a fashion that effectively puts it's #1 on the list. This article isn't about steamspy - period. We can mention steamspy in the article somewhere, but I don't believe it is lede worthy, and there certainly should be no specific games mentioned to note their usage in contrast to those on the list. It looks like co-opting the list, because it is. It doesn't belong there. Perhaps someday, steamspy can be used a source, but that day is not today. Leitmotiv (talk) 23:03, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

SteamSpy
SteamSpy shows the current estimate of "OWNED" copies of a game. This includes free copies, bundle copies, etc. SteamSpy's about us page notes this and stresses that these figures can't be used to accurately gauge sales or revenue. This article is specifically about copies SOLD. SteamSpy is not usable for this metric. -- ferret (talk) 23:05, 2 March 2016 (UTC)


 * So I'm perfectly happy to not add Left4Dead 2 to the list, however for ALL other games that I edited/added, it is accurate to within ~.1%.


 * None of the Counter-Strike games, DayZ or Rust have been given away, they have ALL been sold to people, on steam, ON TOP OF THIS steamspy lists the accuracy margin for every game on its website. If you want to add the +-81,000 etc to every game which has it's data from steamspy, be my guest but my guess is that the average user doesn't care. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GillyTheGhillie (talk • contribs) 23:17, 2 March 2016‎ (UTC)


 * We should not use SteamSpy for this comparative type of sales data since it is a statistical estimate based on ownership, not by sale, and it is going to involve original research to make that claim. --M ASEM (t) 23:24, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

You also cannot add retail copies sold (taken from one source) and add it to the "owned copies" figure on SteamSpy. SteamSpy includes millions of CD-Keys from retail copies that have been registered with Steam. -- ferret (talk) 23:39, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that Half-life retail could be activated on steam, regardless the numbers quoted for the Counter-Strike games, DayZ and Rust are all accurate to within 100,000, as 1 owner = 1 sale, because they have NEVER been given away for free, only sold.GillyTheGhillie (talk) 00:13, 3 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Additionally, games owned does not equate to sales which is a specific economic factor. Are these games given away for free? Owning something is not the same as purchasing that item. SteamSpy while useful, is not the perfect source for this article. Leitmotiv (talk) 02:45, 3 March 2016 (UTC)

If no one has any objections I'm going to revert those edits that use SteamSpy as a source for sold copies. This article is strictly about sold copies. It's not about pirated copies, not about free copies, not about guesstimated sold copies which is what SteamSpy is. It's about strict claims of copies sold. SteamSpy should be strictly prohibited from this article until they can provide more distinct information. Leitmotiv (talk) 17:00, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

I indeed do have a problem with this, steamspy is more than accurate enough to gauge sales for games that have never been given away, such as all of the ones I added, the numbers that steamspy has are FAR more accurate than the ones currently used, because they are up to date, while half the sources given on this page are over a year old. 1 owner on steam = one sale.GillyTheGhillie (talk) 02:25, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * SteamSpy is a statistical estimate, so it absolutely cannot be used for comparative sales counts to things like NPD group data. --M ASEM (t) 02:49, 10 April 2016 (UTC)
 * GillytheGhillie, if you reviewed the replies to your earlier comments, you would know that SteamSpy does not differentiate between pirated copies, freebies, and the like. This wiki article strictly deals with sales figures, not the amount of players. For that reason, SteamSpy does not qualify as a source we can use to determine sales figures. If you continue to edit SteamSpy as a source into the wikiarticle, without first getting a consensus, your profile will get submitted for a ban. Leitmotiv (talk) 03:38, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Developers have actually confirmed a lot of times that SteamSpy is very accurate with the sales numbers, even themselves in some cases at their blogs used SteamSpy to show their own sales, since it was more useful for them. Not sure why the 2 of you keep saying that it isn't accurate or why both of you should stop it since you also aren't the owners of the truth, SteamSpy does in fact work to reflect sales, and it's better to inform this than just leave behind hundreds of games because 2 guys decided not to show one of the most useful websites about videogame sales. Liderangel (talk) 05:01, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 * It's not just "2 guys", it's the VG project's current position as a whole, see WikiProject Video games/Sources. -- ferret (talk) 12:21, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

You people do realize that Steamspy displays the margin of error, which accounts for review copies, fraud and so on, right? It is otherwise factually correct within those parameters. They are not statistical estimates. CS:GO has been sold more than 39 million times and whenever it was bundled together or discounted doesn't matter. I don't really understand why it's appropriate for Ferret to keep trying to find reasons as to dismiss the data. Traditional shipped unit data also includes free copies or fraudulent purchases. So what's your goal here? You obviously have an ulterior motive, otherwise I see no reason why this page is even indexed. 2003:CD:CBC0:7E01:4C75:928E:69D4:BF0B (talk) 18:54, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
 * You do realize that this article is about quantifying sales of games, and not about usage which is what SteamSpy is about? Wikiepdia is also about verifying sales data through websites that reflect sales data. Steamspy doesn't reflect sales data, it reflects usage data, and is therefore unusable for the purposes of this article. Maybe you want to create a new article about "Most played games of all time"? Leitmotiv (talk) 20:55, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
 * If reliable sources report on it, then it can be used. At least, this has been the general practice in the past. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 01:25, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
 * It's usable in articles, to report how many copies are owned, in that case. It's still no good for a list of hard sales figures, IMO. -- ferret (talk) 01:49, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I was just reverted and told to look at the talk page, but I see no mention of if RS reporting on it also counts as unreliable. It also makes little sense to allow it in their own articles but not on lists. Either we accept them on both, or on neither. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 02:00, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Context. On an article it can be clearly stated "x copies owned" or "x number of players". This list is explicitly "x copies sold", which SteamSpy doesn't provide. Similarly, we don't list Overwatch here because Blizzard never announces copies sold, only "players registered". -- ferret (talk) 02:11, 18 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Fair enough I suppose, but I still think allowing them in their articles but not anywhere else seems a bit odd. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 09:02, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm open to re-discussing allowing "third party estimates", but I think we should consider changing the bar if we do, especially since SteamSpy stats alone will vastly add to the table (Even if through secondary sources) I.e. "1 million copies" is not a very high bar anymore for game sells. Maybe move to 5 million and move some of the older 1 million games to the second table? -- ferret (talk) 14:35, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah if Steamspy is to be allowed, then we'd need to overhaul what the threshold is for allowing to make the list. Perhaps with some concern to calving off the "Older computers" list to a separate article, and even setting restrictions on precision, e.g. 1 million, versus 1.1 million. 1.1 million is not necessary. Leitmotiv (talk) 19:02, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I was going to start a new discussion about the "older computers" section too, as I don't see what even makes a game qualify for the list, besides being old. I'd add the three games that sold over a million to the main table, and get rid of the rest. As for the precision, I'm neutral on that, as I don't see how it hurts to add that if the source includes the information as well. It also helps with sorting. ~ Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 22:47, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The precision is just a hassle is why I suggest getting rid of decimals. For one, most people don't know how many places behind the decimal are necessary, so sometimes they put two digits behind the decimal or more. In cases of the top sellers, they put a decimal in there, which is not necessary because there is no contention between a game that sells 25 million and one that sell 24. At least, not at this time. And finally, it just becomes more of a chore to separate by decimals - we are making out lives unnecessarily more complicated for little to no gain. Most of the hassle is in the games that sold between 1 to 5 million where people are listing their favorite games, and trying to edge above overs using decimals, creating more nested sorting categories. It's just ridiculous. Leitmotiv (talk) 00:18, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't oppose it being simplified, but I personally don't think it's that big of an issue either. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 05:31, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

The CS:GO problem
So as I was browsing this page, I noticed that CS:GO was not mentioned at all and I thought that was strange. So I read the entirety of the discussion about the legitimacy of certain figures that have been presented, and the concern for integrity and accuracy in reporting these statistics. This is, for sure, not an easy issue to solve. But may I propose that we add a footnote, or an honorable mention. CS:GO is undoubtedly a huge contender for the #1 spot, but since we can't confirm or deny it, I understand there is an obligation to not spread misinformation.

Here is what I propose. We start with what we know. In the last month, CS:GO has seen 12.4 Million unique players, as reported by Valve on the official counter-strike website. If we take a look at the web.archive snapshots of this figure, we see it steady at 10 Million for years, and a recent uptick to 12.4 Million. This is consistent with the launch of CS:GO's Perfect World, the Chinese version. So if we consider valve to be a reliable source, we can confirm that there have been at least 12.4 million copies sold. We could confirm additive quantities on top of this figure, such as accounts banned, (considering those accounts are not included in the figure of unique active players.) referenced from official statements by valve on their work in combating cheating, but I believe it gets too messy at that point. CS:GO, and Counter-Strike in general are huge parts of the PC gaming world. I believe that CS:GO deserves to be recognized, despite having only a minimum figure to go on. Is it possible to compromise, and add CS:GO to the list with this figure, with the caveat that it is noted that the figure is only the amount that we can confirm with a reliable source?

Or, alternatively, we could postface the list with a small quip mentioning that while CS:GO is believed by many to be #1 on this list, it is not confirmable and we present what information we *can* confirm. I feel that this is a much better alternative to leaving CS:GO off the list completely. Because in not mentioning it at all, we are, in a way, spreading misinformation. Or at least not actively trying to combat misinformation in regards to the topic.

In short, we do have a credible source for at least 12.4 Million copies sold. We can confirm that amount, which would place CS:GO prominently at #4th place, as Diablo III's 'Over 12 million' figure is from 2012, and I believe it is safe to assume it has passed 12.4 Million. If this change is implemented, CS:GO recieves well-deserved recognition, and people who read the article are provided with a more accurate picture of the standings.

I am not very experienced with contributing to Wikipedia, and I ask that you please let me know if I have overlooked or have not abided by any community guidelines, ettiquite, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevin SF (talk • contribs) 08:59, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The problem with the Valve listing is the concept of "12.4 million unique players", not "12.4 million sales". This is the same reason that Overwatch (25+ million) is not currently on the list, because Blizzard does not announce sales, they announce 'registered players'. Unfortunately, this is a list of "best-selling", and is grounded in "units sold". We do not have any sources for either game that state a clear "unit sold" currently, so they fail WP:V. Adding them to the list is going to require a discussion to allow "non-unit sales" and possibly rename the article in some fashion to match. Honestly, I believe that discussion needs to be formalized here or at WT:VG concerning how the industry has moved from "units sold" to "accounts registered" over time. -- ferret (talk) 14:36, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd support that proposal, as this has been an issue for a fairly long time now. I'd also include free-to-play player numbers as well, as there is no reason why they shouldn't be included if sourced. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 17:28, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Or we could just start a new article reflecting registered players. And if that article becomes the de facto list for gauging a game's success, then I'm down for the next iteration of whatever. Leitmotiv (talk) 20:01, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Why separate them instead of just having one single list? A list like that would have like 10-15 titles. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 22:57, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Dropping precision
So let's discuss this separate from Steam Spy and other concerns. Dropping precision will involve rounding several rows down. We cannot round up since that would be misleading. I personally don't believe the precision is an issue if sources are bothering to cover it. -- ferret (talk) 18:02, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * "Let's discuss" wasn't unclear, was it? -- ferret (talk) 18:04, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * It was discussed earlier, briefly, to which Dissident wasn't "opposed" but went against his own words and opposed it.
 * Nothing is gained by adding decimals. Selling an extra 500,000 copies when we are discussing deleting all entrants just up to 5 million sold, shows it's irrelevant. When you start selling 5 million copies or more, no one cares if you sell an extra 500,000 copies, except fanboys trying to put their favorite above another's. That's all precision is used for in this list, to eek out some sort of perceived advantage on the list.
 * From a technical standpoint - the thing with precision, is that you should also be consistent. If you plan on using decimals, you must use decimals for all the entrants because the lack of a decimal doesn't convey if you meant to omit the decimal, or if you accidentally omitted it. You come across this in technical training with lat/long coordinates all the time. If there is a zero after the decimal, you show it anyway, to let other's know about your accuracy, which conveys information about the accuracy of the other precision numbers in the list. It's either one or the other, not a mixture. A mixture shows a lack of skill in dealing with numbers. More precision also means more work, which seems pointless for a list of games. Leitmotiv (talk) 18:14, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * "went against his own words and opposed it." because I didn't see the point in only doing that to Minecraft's numbers and ignoring the rest? If they bother you so bad, then remove all of them. I already stated that I wasn't against that, I just wanted more discussion about it from other editors first. That being said, your issues about it being "more work" shouldn't be a seen as a reason for not doing something, because if another editor doesn't mind doing it (I guess I apply), and the sources report on it, then why disallow that? Does that really help the article? ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 21:51, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * It's been done a few hours ago, it just needs alphabetizing now. As for one editor willing to do it, that's not a good argument either as editors activeness wax and wane. You'll see that throughout wikipedia. Someone takes up the mantle only to abandon it later. Leitmotiv (talk) 22:51, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * That's a bad and lazy argument, honestly, as you could make the same case for the entirety of Wikipedia using that logic. If a game sold 2.9 but started with the letter Z, does it really make sense to place at the bottom of the 2 million tier? ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 17:31, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * It's not lazy. It's the dedicated editors looking at the long term. I've been here for 10 years. I've seen people trying to stick to these grand plans only to have someone else clean up their mess after they lose dedication. It's not even an argument, it's based on experience. As for the letter Z... that's the nature of the beast of the alphabet. Honestly, the difference between 2.9 and 2 million is negligible when you are planning on deleting everything up to 5 million. Z's will just have to put up with being named after the last letter of the alphabet - and they can pine away on how they could have been an Apple, Alibaba, Amazon, or Alphabet. Leitmotiv (talk) 19:55, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
 * While I see your point, I still don't really agree. Would you apply the same argument to the list of highest-grossing films, a featured list that includes the exact amount? ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 08:01, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

What is this list?
I don't understand. Are these games that were first or primarily released on PC? Are the sales figures only the PC sales or for all platforms? Why is Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas not on the list? Alexis Jazz (talk) 04:34, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
 * It's supposed to be PC-only sales, its platform of origin shouldn't matter. And is there a reliable source that states the PC version sold over one million? If so, then it belongs. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 07:56, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
 * It's a list of games that sold 1 million+ copies specifically on PC. Doesn't matter if they were on other platforms or PC first, just that there are confirmed PC sales of over 1 million. -- ferret (talk) 12:47, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks.
 * your last edit summary said "none of these games are on a fourth PC platform, as far as I can tell.". I would assume this list is counting all PC games, or is it limited to x86? Doom was also available on the Acorn Archimedes and Quake and Myst on AmigaOS. Prince of Persia was originally made for the Apple II series and ported to Amiga, Amstrad CPC, Atari ST, SAM Coupé, PC-9800 series and X68000. I assume the sales of all these platforms would also count, wouldn't they? Alexis Jazz (talk) 23:11, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
 * If there's a source for 1 million sales specifically on PC type platforms, then yes, but I don't believe such exists in these two cases. For Prince of Persia for example, it crossed 1 million after being released on consoles and I don't think we'd ever be able itemize it out. -- ferret (talk) 23:15, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
 * what? These games are already on the list. That bit was just about the header which currently states "(Microsoft Windows, macOS, and Linux)". While we may or may not be able to figure out the sales figures for PoP on the X68000, if there is a source those sales will count for this list. Or so I would think. Alexis Jazz (talk) 23:31, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I've removed Prince, at least. The source is not clearly PC only sales, and in fact the main article says sales only increased after ports to other platforms and consoles. In general though, yes, PC is broader than "Windows, Mac, and Linux". -- ferret (talk) 23:37, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Doom, Myst and Quake have shakey sources too. I'm almost confident it's true they have 1 million PC sales, but I don't think we have solid sources on it. -- ferret (talk) 23:40, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Humble bundles
List of Humble Bundles

Bundles that sold more than 1 million:
 * Humble Origin Bundle (Dead Space, Burnout Paradise, Crysis 2, Mirror's Edge, Dead Space 3, Medal of Honor. Not sure if >1M also beat the average, in that case also Battlefield 3, The Sims 3 (already on this list), Command & Conquer: Red Alert 3 – Uprising and Populous)
 * Humble WB Games Bundle	(Batman: Arkham Asylum, F.E.A.R. 2: Project Origin, F.E.A.R. 3, Lord of the Rings: War in the North)

There were 885,370 purchases for the Humble THQ Bundle. (Darksiders, Metro 2033, Red Faction: Armageddon, Company of Heroes, Company of Heroes: Opposing Fronts, Company of Heroes: Tales of Valor) so with another/additional source those games could also be listed. Alexis Jazz (talk) 23:59, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually:
 * Darksiders was also in the Humble Weekly Sale: THQ Games (68,290 purchases). (953,660 total) In the Humble Weekly Bundle: Nordic Games 2 (78,681 purchases) it was beat-the-average.
 * Metro 2033 was also in the Humble Deep Silver Bundle. (473,585 purchases)
 * Red Faction: Armageddon was also in the Humble Weekly Sale: THQ Games (68,290 purchases) and Humble Weekly Sale: Nordic Games. (228,047 purchases)
 * Company of Heroes was also in the Humble Weekly Sale: SEGA. (160,396)
 * So for Darksiders another 46.340 sales would have to be found. (possibly some in the beat-the-average Nordic Games 2 bundle) Metro 2033, Red Faction: Armageddon and Company of Heroes are 1M+. Alexis Jazz (talk) 00:10, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Bundles don't strike me as qualifying for this list, either in spirit or by technicality. This article is a list of individual game sales. You would need a source to reflect a specific game sold X quantities. Humble Bundle itself could be put into the list if it were a single game, but it ain't. Leitmotiv (talk) 00:15, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
 * When a developer states "this game sold 1M+ copies", I bet they are including bundle sales. I agree it's not really in the spirit of this list, but what are you gonna do. When someone on GOG clicks "Buy series", should that count? Any game from the series can be kicked out of the shopping cart afterwards, so it's not really a bundle. What about Steam bundles? You can remove items from the bundle from your shopping cart, but if you do, it will affect your discount. What if I buy the Stronghold Collection on DVD? Is that a sale for 4 individual Stronghold games or does it not count at all? If 2K counts any sale of these as a sale of 4 games (without telling us), does that make it count? Alexis Jazz (talk) 00:54, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
 * They probably are, we see this with the Sonic series having 350 million+ "sales" in Sega Sammy's financial reports, when probably half of that includes free-to-play and emulated re-releases. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 05:40, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

H1Z1 problem
So back in March 2015, it was announced that the original H1Z1 had sold over a million copies. Now, this is an issue because the game later split into two versions under the H1Z1 branding in February 2016, which then later became two separate projects in August 2017; the original H1Z1 becoming Just Survive and the battle royale one retaking the name H1Z1. Due to this, how should we handle this? Add Just Survive to the list with a note that it sold over a million titles under the original name of H1Z1? ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 22:23, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Link Just Survive (As the paid game from the split) and note that it was named H1Z1 at the time. -- ferret (talk) 22:47, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
 * ✅ ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 05:53, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Minecraft
Minecraft on the PC has reached 27 million. Pls change the source https://minecraft.net/en-us/store/?ref=fm. The 22 million is from 2016. Minecraft is the best selling PC game in the world.--Skylord wars (talk) 13:37, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
 * So this is where the 27 million claim came from? The list previously cited an archived link that stated 19 million, which seems to have been an error by the archival bot. Also, PUBG should still have more copies sold at 30 million, but the list requires an official statement from PUBG Corp and not SteamSpy. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 21:01, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
 * No the link originally cited 27 million per my last edit on October. The archived link did not originally state 19 million as you claim. Maybe at one time, but the Minecraft counter that was referenced was continually updated, just like the new one is. As for your PUBG statement, it seems you're playing favorites. Keep in mind, no one here cares what game is number 1, we care about cited sources. What I personally wish from this list, is that it would inspire more publishers to release info, but they keep it a close guard secret for investment purposes. We all know games sold more than Minecraft, especially World of Warcraft, but we're about verification, not speculation. Leitmotiv (talk) 22:44, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The link that I originally removed a few days ago from the list was this, which gave a number of 19,016,904. And I'm not sure why you're accusing me of playing favorites either. The 30 million claim was sourced, it's just that it's agreed upon on this very talk page that SteamSpy-sourced numbers should not be allowed here, although their inclusion in their respective articles is. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 07:44, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Minecraft has reached 28 million according to the page. Pls update it as soon as possible. Skylord wars (talk) 03:05, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

PUBG Copies Sold updated to >30 Million
Source

Also CS:GO possibly has 40 Million copies sold, making PUBG #2, Minecraft #3 - Source
 * The claim of 30 million for PUBG was sourced from SteamSpy, which is not supposed to be considered valid for these sorts of lists. And the same goes for CS:GO, which has never had any official sells numbers revealed by Valve, just SteamSpy. Personally, I'd allow them in these lists because we already allow them in the respective game articles for some reason. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 20:16, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 May 2018
There are some errors with this pages list, for example Overwatch has sold 7 million copis and yet it is not on the list at all. I'm sure there are other errors to how true and updated this is. Jayd5930 (talk) 15:05, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -- ferret (talk) 15:07, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Fortnite
No fortnite its been a month best seller of the game so it must be on top Personale (talk) 09:02, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * See my response on the other best-selling games talk page. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 16:38, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
With 25 million sold, is CS:GO the bestselling game on PC? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.39.24.217 (talk) 23:23, 21 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Different day same issue. Figures from SteamSpy, which is unreliable for sales figures. -- ferret (talk) 23:25, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Tom Clancy's Rainbow Six Siege
news.ubisoft.com - RAINBOW SIX SIEGE SURGES TO 20-MILLION-PLAYER MILESTONE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.39.24.217 (talk) 01:46, 22 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm not exactly sure what "registered users" means for this particular game. But at face value that doesn't mean sales. Can anyone clarify? Leitmotiv (talk) 22:10, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * There's been multiple free player weekends and give aways. -- ferret (talk) 22:15, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Would a List of most played PC games be an accurate title for placing these sort of things? Seems like we get these sort of posts nearly every day now. and they would ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 02:03, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It could be, but it could also be hard to strictly define such an article. It seems like it would be rife with ambiguity. Are registered users the same thing as players? Does registering necessarily mean they play the game? I don't know the answers to these questions, but it seems like there is a need for an article for these types of games. Showing something like "most popular game activity" Or something to that effect. Leitmotiv (talk) 05:03, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That's pretty much why no real attempt at such an article has been made. It would need strict qualification standards that are clearly laid out to avoid edit warring. But for a start, I'd say that for every game included in the list we'd have a "Notes" column that explains what the actual number means. So for example, Siege would clearly note that its for "registered users" and not "active accounts" or "subscribers". I'd also not include any game with pure sales numbers, because then this list becomes redundant, unless we merge that article back here in the future? Either way, there has to be a way to document these non-sales numbers somewhere. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 07:18, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * At the face value of, would another list set for players (versus sales) stop people from posting here? No, if such a list exists, people will still try to add those games here. Someone needs to bite the bullet and start a discussion on including registered players :P We talk about having a discussion but no one has wanted to really kick it off. -- ferret (talk) 10:26, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * At this point, the easiest solution seems to be just make a Steamspy article based on these games, since the vast majority of these inclusions on the talk page and article are directly or indirectly referring to steamspy. I don't like the idea of an article based solely around steamspy numbers, but at least it avoids ambiguity to a larger degree. Leitmotiv (talk) 20:38, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Hampered by the fact that SteamSpy is now defunct. -- ferret (talk) 21:58, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Not totally defunct, but the estimates are now way too large of a range for reliable sources to really cover anymore. Just look at CSGO, which now reports between 20-50 million. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 22:30, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That really worsens the case. If estimates were frozen at the point where profiles could be sampled, we might do something. If limited sampling continues but with now huge error margins, we can't do anything with that. -- ferret (talk) 22:35, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I didn't know the site was defunct and it had gotten that bad. Yeah, forget I said anything. Leitmotiv (talk) 22:38, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It was due to a recent Steam account privacy change, which set people's game inventories to friends-only by default, meaning SteamSpy and other Steam data crawling services can't get a (more reliable) estimate anymore. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 23:06, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 July 2018
I request The Sims 4 to be readded to the list. As confirmed by an article by TechCrunch, The Sims 4 has surpassed 5 million copies sold https://techcrunch.com/2016/10/11/facebook-social-virtual-reality/ Gabekline (talk) 23:24, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
 * TechCrunch's reliability is considered "inconclusive" per the WP:VG/RS list, so I don't know if we should use this site or not. But checking for the 5m sold original claim, it seems that Lyndsay Pearson (the game's executive producer) stated it here, so it's not a made up number. The problem is I can't seem to find a source we consider fully reliable reporting on this, so I'll hold off on adding this. We also don't know if the 5m is PC only or all platforms combined, as the claim doesn't make note of that. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 15:14, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 July 2018
Add Counter-Strike: Global Offensive to the list, because it has sold 30 million copies. 216.237.228.208 (talk) 13:01, 21 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -- ferret (talk) 14:32, 21 July 2018 (UTC)
 * SteamSpy is now widely inaccurate following some Steam privacy changes, so you could have at least linked to the achievement-based leak. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 02:59, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Witcher 3 Sales Outdated
https://wccftech.com/witcher-33-million-witcher-3-2017-pc/

Half of 33 million is 16,5 milion. Will a mod fix this?
 * The series sold 33 million, and unless I'm reading this wrong, it doesn't actually state the amount of PC sales Witcher 3 got in particular, just the percentage. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 17:17, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

CUPHEAD SALES OUTDATED
Hello. Studio MDHR announced that CUPHEAD reached the 3 million copies http://studiomdhr.com/ http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/08/10/cuphead-sells-3-million-copies — Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.170.176.178 (talk) 14:55, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
 * If it includes Xbox sales, we can't use it as a source here. -- ferret (talk) 14:58, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Doesn't give a breakdown of platforms, like stated above. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 15:10, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Witcher 3 sold copies are definietly bigger THAN witcher 1 and 2 combined...
Like, cmon...ON pc? 4.8 milion copies sold on PS4 ONLY. NO WAY IT IS LOWE THAN 2 MILLIONS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:F41:1C1A:8D13:D9D5:9CE5:659C:648C (talk) 16:18, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * And is there a source for this or are you just assuming because the game is well known? See the above post that states only the % sold, not actual numbers. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 19:28, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 August 2018
I want to add Mount & Blade warband, who is though to have sold ( a maximum of ) 7 million copy. Bastobasto (talk) 23:59, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Provide a source, and if it's reliable, it will be added. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 01:01, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
 * To add, a source that specifically covers PC sales. -- ferret (talk) 12:10, 29 August 2018 (UTC)
 * In other words, a source that doesn't suck. All of you would be editors! Leitmotiv (talk) 19:13, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Name Change from PC to Computer Games
To make this list much more understandable, I think we should change this from "best-selling PC games" to best selling "computer games" since numerous games on the list include non-pc computers. Especially given some of these games can't be played on a PC even TODAY at all. Spike Danton (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:32, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Computer game redirects to PC game. That is, on wikipedia "PC Games" is treated as the common name. Additionally the term has moved away from "PC" meaning specifically "IBM compatible". The label is essentially applied to Apple and Nix based games these days.-- ferret (talk) 17:38, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't oppose a proper WP:RM, but also agree with what ferret says. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 20:29, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The RM would need to be to rename PC game first. This is essentially a sub-article and would rename along with it. -- ferret (talk) 20:31, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * True. Also, I believe that "computer game" is sometimes the preferred overall term for video games (including handheld/consoles) in some regions of the world, which would potentially get in the way of a move. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 20:35, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Makes no sense, in other regions of the world, like europe, PC and "Computer" were separated as well. Even a few years ago there were commercials about Mac's vs. PC ( since then it seems Apple has given up trying to outsell PC in the US at least) it doesn't make any sense to call the other computer platforms "pc's", plus this title is misleading. iThere are Commodore, Atari etc. games that should be on this list but won't because the first thing people will think this list is for is PC-games only. Most sles numbers for other platforms are on pages related to the other platforms and not here. So this kind of screws with the accuracy of this article anyway.


 * My suggestion would be to either rename this Best-selling Computer games, OR to ONLY have PC games on this list as that solves both problems. Spike Danton (talk) 15:04, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Again, this is a sub-article list for the parent article PC game, so that's what it is tied to. Computer game on Wikipedia is synonymous with PC game. I'm not saying I support it (i'm fairly neutral), but that's the current state, and it needs addressed at Talk:PC game or WT:VG first. I'd recommend reading how Personal computer is currently oriented to include Linux and macOS, as well. You said as an alternative to ONLY have PC games on this list. Which games do you feel fail that criteria currently? -- ferret (talk) 15:14, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * What do you mean criteria? All the games that are on PC have articles showing they are PC games or the sales numbers found for them were only for the PC version. Hence they still fit the article title. The games that have sales for say, commodore 64 shouldn't be on that list if we are going to use the sub-article rules that you have mentioned. There's not that many of them so I'd vote to remove the non-pc game sales figures from this list to remove the above mentioned confusions. Spike Danton (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:21, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * So I'll ask again: You said as an alternative to ONLY have PC games on this list. Which games do you feel fail that criteria currently? The criteria quite obviously being that they are, in fact, a "PC game". -- ferret (talk) 16:24, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * A commodore 64 game is not a PC game though. Spike Danton (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:29, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how we're failing to communicate here. This is your own suggestion, and I can't seem to get you to tell us what entries need removed. Which items currently on this list should be removed because the figure they list is NOT for PC sales? -- ferret (talk) 16:59, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The issue was this quote "You said as an alternative to ONLY have PC games on this list. Which games do you feel fail that criteria currently?" which has no context and completely ignored the fact I already said games not on PC should be removed. As for examples, Look at games like Hydelide, and thexter shouldn't even be on the lists as those are NEC/FM games. The Last Ninja is a Commodore 64 game. I would also like to point out neither the sales source referenced in this article, or in the games article, actually exist. So to be honest we really don't have any source for the Last Ninjas numbers at all unless your or someone else can fnd a new source. Spike Danton (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:10, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you. That's all I wanted to know. I removed all four. Weak sourcing aside, they are on platforms that are classified as home computers generally, a hardware tier that preceded the modern concept of a personal computer. -- ferret (talk) 17:23, 31 August 2018 (UTC)


 * I also vote to remove games that don't specify the PC sales, because games like Deer Hunter for example, that 1 million is across all platforms and not just PC. So saying a game like that sold 1 million ON PC, is misleading. Spike Danton (talk) 18:05, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Nothing to vote on here, that's already the "rule" for this list. Someone just needs to remove entries they find the sourcing isn't correct, or point it out here for someone to review. However, in this case, it should not be removed. The only non-PC platform for Deer Hunter is game boy, which was released in 1999, after the source was published. -- ferret (talk) 18:11, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Not really, it was also on Macintosh. Spike Danton (talk) 18:22, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Macintosh is considered a personal computer on Wikipedia. I keep saying this. Read Personal computer again, and the lead sentence of Macintosh. Personal computer does not mean Windows.-- ferret (talk) 18:23, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * You're contradicting yourself. I never said PC was only Windows. The reason why you removed the commodore and NEC games were because they were not "PC's", 1990's MAcs are not the same as 2018 macs and do not meet the general PC definition either. If a game sold more in the 90's on a Mac than a PC (this isn't a thing that's happened just an example) why would MAC sales be combined with "PC" sales but not Commodore or NEC? This doesn't make any sense.


 * What you're doing is saying that if MAC took sales from PC in Deer Hunter it doesn't count because MAC is considered a PC in wikipedia because the opening line says "PC" which is pretty flawed. But let's go with that, if you read and click on the "PC" link on the MACINTOSH article, as you say, it leads to this definition for PC's: is a multi-purpose computer whose size, capabilities, and price make it feasible for individual use", the issue is that applies to the commodore 64 as well. Are you only basing this on whether the headline sentence says "PC" or "Home Computer"? Then what's the difference? Shouldn't we be going for historical accuracy since no one was calling MACS a PC in the 90's outside the PC clones? Let's say you don't and you used the flawed logic of considering wikipedias definition being the headline sentence, ok, then why did you remove the NEC computer games when all the NEC computer items say they are "personal computers" and not home computers?


 * The answer to that question is you know that everything that was not a PC or a PC clone, was in fact not a PC and you are creating a new arbitrary requirement for no reason. Spike Danton (talk)
 * Didn't contradict myself at all. I link you all these things, but doesn't feel like you read anything. Commodore 64 are classified as home computers. Macintosh was later, and falls under personal computers. You can read both articles to understand the eras they fall over and the differences in the markets. As for NEC, some of the games I removed such as Hydlide were on several platforms taken together, such as MSX, which is a home computer, as is the PC-6000 series and several other NEC lines. Same for Thexder and the PC-8800 series. That is, the source did not give a tally of PC-only sales. You clearly disagree on the definition of what a PC game is, and I will go back to earlier in this discussion: This isn't the place to decide it. If you want to challenge what a PC is, head over to Talk:Personal computer. 18:51, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * (0's mac is not a different era, and yes it does show contradiction. Also if the amount of sales on NEC Computers is enough to be on the lsit it should still be on the list despite releasing on multiple platforms. If we use your logic frogger shouldn't even be on the list because it's on non-pc platforms. The reason why it's on the list is because Frogger sold a certain amount on PC. So using the excuse "also on other platforms" makes no sense.
 * I also don't understand trying to redirect me to various irrelevant articles. Wikipedias definition of PC is : " is a multi-purpose computer whose size, capabilities, and price make it feasible for individual use.[1] PCs are intended to be operated directly by an end user, rather than by a computer expert or technician." which applies to home computers as well. That's why I suggested the edits that You even complied with, because that definition doesn't do anything but cause confusion and is not historicaly accurate which to be honest is what wikipedia should be doing not making up definitions. Spike Danton (talk)
 * It makes a difference whether the source gave the number of sales for PC platforms specifically or not. And several of these sources did not. Either way, I've decided to reinstate all four entries for now, since there's some unclearness in home computer itself as to whether they are PCs. It's voiced as a sub-class. As for why I keep directing you to other articles, is because you are challenging their content. This talk page isn't the place to say "What Wikipedia calls a personal computer isn't right". This talk page is purely for discussing the content of this article alone. Not issues with PC game or personal computer or the definition of what either is. -- ferret (talk) 19:02, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * I never said that, you pulled that out of nowhere during this whole conversation. my issues= was your contradictions and the fact the "definition" of PC by wikipedia doesn't have any consistency within the contest of their articles, and of course, Home Computers. As for your first sentence, if that was the case you never would have removed the NEC games to begin with so you're defending wikipedias definition when you yourself don't understand it.
 * Anyway at some point I'll have to bring up the fact theres a bit of confusion on the use of "PC" on wikipedia at the appropriate pages.Spike Danton (talk)

Rimworld has sold 1 million copy( and others )
Rimworld sold 1 million copies.https:

Here is also the number of sells of steam game leaked

20+ game with 1 million sells Even if it's not actual and only include people who played once, it's pretty exact Bastobasto (talk) 13:17, 1 September 2018 (UTC)


 * The Arstechnica list is not usable for sales figures. Many games have free weekends that give away the game, or are outright free to play, and are included in that list. -- ferret (talk) 13:53, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

CS:GO Sold copies
https://steamdb.info/app/730/graphs/

23,588,670 as of Oct 2, 2016 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.4.213.64 (talk) 23:06, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Steamdb uses Steamspy. Neither is a reliable source for hard sales figures. -- ferret (talk) 17:24, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Why not? --80.167.149.155 (talk) 18:14, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Feel free to read the section above. -- ferret (talk) 18:21, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

At least 11 Million sales due to there being at least 11 million active players last month. http://blog.counter-strike.net/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pz400170 (talk • contribs) 15:47, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
 * That is WP:Original research. Active players is not the same as unit sales. -- ferret (talk) 21:13, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

CS:GO Sales among many other titles were leaked in an arstechnica article. The article clearly states that these numbers came directly from Valve. As of 2018-07-06 the total sales of CS:GO are 46,305,966. Since CS:GO was never given away for free prior to this data being published every single one of these copies was purchased by someone. This number should be added to the list or a source showing that CS:GO was given away for free at some point should be provided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newbrict (talk • contribs) 14:17, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * This article has been discussed in depth at WT:VG. Bottom line is that this is estimates performed by third parties with leaked achievement data. It is not actual sales data or official, however close it might be. -- ferret (talk) 14:48, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I can't find any mention of the article on the link you replied with. Besides that this data is a very accurate representation of CS:GO sales due to the fact that it uses a high precision ratio of achievement progress vs total players. If you read the arstechnica article it gives a little insight on how this calculation happens. There are 167 total achievements in CS:GO and the data was calculated based on finding a whole number ratio from all the percentages - there is a very low margin of error. Again I will state that CS:GO has never been given away for free as of the publishing of the data so the data from this leak is directly representative of sales data. This data came directly from Valve. Newbrict (talk • contribs) 15:12, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * WT:VG is frequently archived due to the level of activity it sees. You're free to open a discussion there on this topic again if you want a broader audience, but the bottom line is we do not consider any SteamSpy based data to be reliable in terms of units sold. -- ferret (talk) 15:24, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes I understand that you don't use steamspy's estimates as a reliable data source, but this is not a steamspy estimate, rather a number that came directly from valve Newbrict (talk • contribs) 15:12, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * sigh No, it is not a number directly from Valve. It is a leak of achievement data that was ran through algorithms, done by Sergey Galyonkin, who runs Steam Spy. -- ferret (talk) 15:30, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Do you agree that Valve provided data representing total achievement progress as a percentage of total players with a precision of 16* decimal places? Newbrict (talk) 15:40, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Not going to debate semantics. Valve didn't "provide" any data in any sort of official capacity. There was a leak of achievement data, and it was processed by Steam Spy. Steam Spy estimates are unreliable and cannot be used on this list. Both Steam Spy and Arstechnica caution on this as well. You may also want to read our policy on original research. Bottom line is that Valve has never released sales figures for CS:GO and this list does not use estimates by third parties. -- ferret (talk) 15:46, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * This isn't a debate of semantics, you are entirely ignoring the nature of the data. The usage of the word "leak" here doesn't mean the data was stolen. It was literally part of the steam api which is an interface to pull data directly from Valve. It was a "leak" because Valve did not realize by publishing the data to that precision they also inadvertently disclosed very precise data representing the size of the player base. The bottom line here is valve realized that they were publishing this data accidentally and then stopped. The "algorithms" you talk about are literally least common denominator, this is a produces a very accurate result which, by nature of the data is a bare minimum of sales for CS:GO. This is NOT original research, it is data published directly from Valve through the steam API Newbrict (talk) 15:59, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

The same "data being pulled" was true for SteamSpy before the account privacy change, and we still considered it not reliable for hard sales figures. But while I don't think we should use the leaked list for new entries here, I don't really see any reason why we can't have something like "By July 2018, CS:GO had reportedly sold over 46 million copies on Steam, which was garnered through a Steam API leak." I think a few WT:VG members at the discussion said they could accept this approach too. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 18:29, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * My understanding of steamspy prior to this data becoming available was randomly sampling a big list of steam accounts to make a statistical estimate of the total number users who own the game. Although I believe this estimate is statistically sound, I can see why this isn't included on this article. This article says "This is a list of PC games for personal computers (including Microsoft Windows, macOS, and Linux) that have sold or shipped at least one million copies." Does that include digital distribution? To me it sounds like it should, which means if we have data on the lower bound of copies steam distributed they should be valid additions to the list. Newbrict (talk) 18:50, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Of course it includes digital sold copies, the issue here is that some have said the leaked list isn't official and should be considered generally unreliable as a result. If we, as a community, arrive on the consensus that it is indeed reliable, then it would be fine to add games from there here. But as of right now, there isn't enough support for that. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 19:26, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Note: I was canvassed to this discussion. Anyway, see Dissident, whom I largely agree with. Ferret is correct that this isn't measuring sales, but rather players, and I have to assume the claim that CS:GO wasn't handed out for free much would be a difficult claim to reliably source (who keeps track of every promotion ever?). That said, per Newbrict, this is a very high-quality data leak - it wasn't just SteamSpy saying "we did some magic calculations, trust us," it was a Valve API that could be checked by anybody with an account. Unintentional and unofficial, yes, but still reliable and worthy of appearing on Wikipedia somewhere (even if, perhaps, not the list directly). Also, no third party sources in the list? That seems wrong, I see plenty of (correct!) citations to Polygon and the like rather than the publisher themselves... so the ArsTechnica article seems citable.

I'd argue that a prose section may be better than sticking it into a list devoid of context, since people don't read footnotes. In fact, that whole leak might be worth a section. In prose, the exact nature of the leak can be written out and let readers judge for themselves, rather than the cold impartiality of a list entry. (or even a separate Steam playership list created which mirrors the top-10-non-F2P from the Steam list.) SnowFire (talk) 04:45, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
 * So a List of most played games on Steam page? I think that wouldn't really work because we'd basically just be copypasting the Ars Techinca list into a wikitable. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 07:22, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
 * This feeds into the similar discussions on the non-platform specific List of best-selling video games. I would consider a "List of most played video games" (name to be tweaked) and not make it platform specific without a need. I would, like the best-selling video game list, limit it to the top 50 most played, at least as a starting point. Beyond the Steam Spy arstechnica stuff, it would also give us a place to put MMOs, Overwatch (Blizz announces player counts, not sales), Rainbow Siege Six (Ubisoft same). -- ferret (talk) 13:49, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree, it's something that I've planned on doing for months now, but haven't gotten around to it due to some of the rules for it being unclear. (like would we accept this leaked list or not). ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 16:13, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I've gone ahead and created a draft for this. I didn't add much to it yet because I want to see what others think of the formatting and included parameters before I start adding more. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 16:53, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

Hydlide and Thexder should be removed
"... please ensure that figures provided refer to sales on the platform in question and not multi-platform sales."

Which is exactly what's wrong with the above-mentioned two games.

According to the source given, Hydlide achieved "1 million sales divided between the PC-88, the PC-98, the PC-66, Sharp’s X-1, Fujitsu’s FM-7, the MSX1, and MSX2, and finally the MZ-2000". Of these machines, only the PC-98 series can remotely be classified as a "PC" (8086 computers that were not fully hardware compatible with the IBM PC, but could run localized MS-DOS and Windows versions). Thus, significantly less than a million Hydlide copies were sold for PCs.

The reference given for Thexder claims "over one million units sold worldwide". However, according to Thexder, this included versions for Tandy Color Computer 3, Apple II, Apple IIGS, Apple Macintosh, Tandy 1000, Commodore Amiga, and the NES. Moreover, the half million copies sold of the PC-8801 version in Japan weren't PC games either, because that machine was a Z80-based homecomputer. There is obviously no indication PC sales of Thexder came even close to a million copies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.212.159.124 (talk) 20:50, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
 * For the scope of this list, PCs include any line of personal computer, not just modern Windows/Mac/Linux-based ones. However, if Thexder includes NES as well, then it should be disqualified and removed. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 22:09, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
 * The definition of "PC" used here is a bit ambiguous. For instance, the article links to PC_game, which states: "... mobile computers – smartphones and tablets, such as those running Android or iOS – are also personal computers in the general sense."
 * According to that, the list would have to include popular tablet and smartphone games as well, which is obviously not intended.
 * A conclusive definition of admissible platforms at the start of the article would probably be helpful. 85.212.237.100 (talk) 23:54, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
 * This...is not a common misconception with PCs. Outside of one particular, troublesome, already-blocked editor, this doesn’t appear to have been an issue historically. Sergecross73   msg me  00:29, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Edit wars and personal vendettas set aside: the definitions of "PC" this article links to are inconclusive. What is the scope of games admissible here? As I understand you, it's "games running on computers with a monitor and a keyboard that are, or have been, readily available for purchase by the general public (starting with the Altair 8800 in 1975)". If so, why not just state it at the beginning of the article for clarification? 85.212.237.100 (talk) 18:12, 1 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree, the scope of the list should be clearly defined to avoid this sort of ambiguity. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 21:57, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Primary vs. Secondary sources in a "best selling" list
I recently reverted the edits to Minecraft supporting 30 million sales, because at best, it's a temporary source that will be outdated in a half year or year's time. Dealing with a list that has more longevity in mind, as in "best-selling PC games" of all time, it would be best to have sources that are more permanent and can be used in the future. It's easy to figure out that a reference supporting 30 million will become antiquated fairly easily when a primary source would work better and for longer.

Primary sources are perfectly fine in articles and there is too much stigma against them, needlessly. They are appropriate in certain instances, and this is one of them. See: WP:PRIMARYCARE and WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD. The way I see it, why make more work for ourselves removing and adding new sources all the time, when a single primary source will work, probably for years to come? Leitmotiv (talk) 18:57, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
 * I still don't see the reason why we should ever remove a secondary source. When it hits 31m we will either remove the old source or replace it with another one; thus there are no downsides to keeping it in my opinion. ~ <b style="color: #660000;">Dissident93</b> (<b style="color: #D18719;">talk</b>) 04:37, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * The only reason to keep it, is if it's contested. It's not. Either way, no big deal to keep it. But don't diss... primary sources. They work perfect for this article. Leitmotiv (talk) 09:05, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 April 2019
The table showing best-selling games should include Skyrim and Fallout 4: https://www.polygon.com/2015/11/10/9673936/elder-scrolls-bigger-than-fallout-sales-data-report https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_V:_Skyrim "The game shipped over seven million copies to retailers within the first week of its release, and over 30 million copies on all platforms as of November 2016, making it one of the highest selling video games in history." https://mogi-group.com/top-10-best-selling-video-games-of-all-time/

This list, as of now, does not seem trustworthy if titles like these are ignored. 62.85.92.111 (talk) 12:25, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: The issue is that those figures are for "All platforms". This list requires figures specifically for "PC" sales, which are unknown for Skyrim and Fallout 4. -- ferret (talk) 15:41, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 May 2019
Half-life - 12 million (don't be stupid) 178.122.175.45 (talk) 06:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. <b style="color:black">Nici</b><b style="color:purple">Vampire</b><b style="color:black">Heart</b> 11:41, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 July 2019
The Sims 4 has sold over 10 million copies and I believe this should be included into this wikipedia page. Source: https://venturebeat.com/2018/10/30/the-sims-4s-expansions-have-over-30-million-downloads/ 98.150.205.211 (talk) 01:30, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: The problem is that the 10 million is both PC and Xbox sales. We need specific PC sales to include here. -- ferret (talk) 01:35, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 September 2019
Cities: Skylines has officially sold 6 million copies as of March 8th 2019

https://www.paradoxinteractive.com/en/cities-skylines-celebrates-fourth-anniversary-and-six-million-copies-sold/

}} Azurespecter (talk) 08:26, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * We can't use that source for this list, as it is total sells across all platforms. This list requires PC-specific sales. -- ferret (talk) 12:34, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

PUBG sale data includes both PC and XBOX sale data
The article cited for the Player Unknown's Battlegrounds sale data states that they sold a combined 50m copies across both PC and XBOX. Actual PC only sales data is not broken out.

"With Xbox and PC sales combined, PUBG has now sold over 50 million units worldwide."

Here's the developer note the cited article is referencing: https://steamcommunity.com/games/578080/announcements/detail/3077529898697959073 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6c51:7e7f:ee4c:8c17:58dd:f327:ec56 (talk) 14:40, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

i'm new here, so i dont know where is the correct place to ask, but why isn't GTA 5 on this list?
it has sold a lot of copis on all platforms and i imagine it would be at least 5-10 million on PC alone — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.39.79.147 (talk) 00:16, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That's basically why it's not here. We don't know. They haven't announced PC sales independent of total sales. -- ferret (talk) 00:26, 20 July 2020 (UTC)