Talk:List of best-selling game consoles/Archive 5

PlayStation 2 sales numbers confirmed to be 160m
In a recent podcast, Jim Ryan confirms in a recent official PlayStation podcast that the PlayStation 2 sold 160 million units. (https://soundcloud.com/playstation/official-playstation-podcast-episode-481-heres-to-you-jim 14:40) The previously reported on sales numbers were over 155m. The article should be updated to reflect this new information. Bro3256 (talk) 20:51, 29 March 2024 (UTC)


 * It's an hour long podcast. Care to give a timestamp and give a transcript of the relevant part? Sergecross73   msg me  20:53, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The timestamp is 14:40. Bro3256 (talk) 20:56, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Jim Ryan says "160 million in the 2000s", i.e. before 2010, and yet Sony reports 155 million as of 2012. I don't know that this is a good enough statement. -- ferret (talk) 21:42, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * The exact quote is "The 2000s, that would be uh I would say 160 million which is the number of PS2s that we sold. High watermark" and it's within the context of Jim Ryan going through the decades of PlayStation. It's clear that Jim does not mean 160 million PlayStation 2 consoles sold in the 2000s but rather that's the amount of consoles sold in the lifetime of the PlayStation 2. Bro3256 (talk) 21:56, 29 March 2024 (UTC)
 * But it's only an oral statement from Jim Ryan, this cannot be count as an official update until there's further information from trustworthy sources or even Sony themselves. Best to just mention it in PS2 in my opinion. Sponge123 (talk) 00:02, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't know, it sounds more like an off-the-cuff approximation of a rounded number than a specific figure... Sergecross73   msg me  00:11, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Jim Ryan is the CEO of a public company, he's not allowed to just say false information about the sales of the best-selling console. The IGN article even says that the last update was 159 million (unofficially), so 160 million is believable. Sony as a company doesn't really have much of a reason to give an official statement on the PS2 sales because they moved on in 2012. This reminds me of how I added to Skyrim's Wikipedia page, that it sold over 60 million according to Todd Howard, but then it got changed because Bethesda didn't officially announce it, (even though it still is valid). 2A00:23C6:D584:5B01:EC76:F361:4066:ACF1 (talk) 01:39, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * So you already understand that IGN relaying the personal statements of individuals making offhand comments on sales in longer interviews isn't something we treat as official. -- ferret (talk) 01:42, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * This isn't some random person, they are/were the CEO of PlayStation, if he says 160 million, then that should be taken as a fact. Otherwise you just leave it at over 155 million, but this is still an official sales update from someone who obviously knows PlayStation very well. 2A00:23C6:D584:5B01:7C3C:5760:5443:1C19 (talk) 04:45, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Again, you cannot take any oral statement about console sales as facts, not to mention Jim ryan only said it at the end of his role as Playstation CEO, in a podcast too (Not to mention chances are he was just rounding the PS2 total sales numbers). And last but not least, just wait and see if Sony makes an offical update on PS2 sales or not. Sponge123 (talk) 10:19, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Unless there's some official financial statements or the like published on the PlayStation website, then Wikipedia isn't going to accept it as an official number for these charts. Jim Ryan being the CEO isn't good enough. Former SIE president Shawn Layden gave us an exact number for the PSP, but I discovered first-hand that that wasn't good enough, either. Even if God Almighty descended from heaven and told us how many units the PS2 sold, it wouldn't be accepted. This site has very exacting criteria for what counts as a valid citation. That's just how Wikipedia rolls, for better or for worse. ShadowOfTheVoid1980 (talk) 18:13, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * To be fair, Layden's PSP figure got rejected because it was merely a tweet about how many were manufactured. It wasn't a sales figure. Sergecross73   msg me  18:21, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * To add what has been already said, Jim Ryan actually makes some factual errors in that same podcast regarding Sony and PS. On the very next point after he mentioned this, he said the most memorable PS moment for him in the 2010s was the "birth" of the Uncharted series. Uncharted Drake's Deception came out in 2007, with the second game came out in 2009, so quite clearly an error. A human one? For sure. But an error nonetheless when there's a debate regarding the validity of his claims.
 * The point here it's not if it may well be around 160 million units sold - for all that we know, it can really be. But the standard of evidence in Wikipedia is higher than an aproximative ballpark in a podcast where more oral statements are factually wrong. That's why, for all this years, we have always relayed on official numbers and not IGN estimations - but, also, acknowledging that the 150 mill. number it's not completely set in stone, that's why the article has always had that footnote indicating that the number is probably higher. This news reinforces that note, but it's not nearly enough to set it as a valid number.
 * And no, being CEO not makes you unable to lie. You can't lie in investor meetings - but there's no problem with podcasts. 2.138.181.62 (talk) 12:10, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * If the 160 million PS2 sales figure is accepted then that also gives us a near final PS Vita number of 11.69 million based on the total PlayStation series consoles sales figure of 525.3 million as of July 22, 2018. Both figures could be updated.
 * Source: https://sonyinteractive.com/en/press-releases/sony-interactive-entertainment-introduces-playstation4-pro-500-million-limited-edition/ 2603:7000:8E00:4900:2C11:75A:DF82:2134 (talk) 13:35, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Where are you getting that Vita sales figure? I don't see that number in the source. Sergecross73   msg me  13:42, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It's basic math, PS2 and Vita were the only two consoles we didn't have complete figures for. If PS2 is 160 million then Vita has to be 11.69 million. 2603:7000:8E00:4900:2C11:75A:DF82:2134 (talk) 13:59, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Taking an off-the-cuff sales figure from an interview and using it to do math with a completely unrelated press release is definite going to violate Wikipedia's WP:OR policy. Sergecross73   msg me  14:04, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * It is a deductive figure, but this article already has other estimates and similar deductive figures in place of specific official company sourced IR or PR numbers. This wouldn't be the first for Vita even.
 * I think the veracity of Jim Ryan's statement is debatable, I just believe that if it's accepted then that also establishes a new more concrete Vita figure. 2603:7000:8E00:4900:2C11:75A:DF82:2134 (talk) 14:14, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I hear you, I'm just of the mindset that the Jim Ryan quote isn't good enough, and this sort of math compounds the issues here. Sergecross73   msg me  14:27, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Statista has the PS2 listed with 158,7 mil units sold as of "End [of] February 2024". If the Offical Playstation Podcast can´t be trusted, in what is clearly a Sony PR release to get the press talking, then trust Statista. That site is a universally agreed upon tool for university publications. My own bachelor thesis relied on it and the German version of this very article sources it:
 * https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/160549/umfrage/anzahl-der-weltweit-verkauften-spielkonsolen-nach-konsolentypen// Even the poor PS Vita managed to get a concrete number here. The Insomniac leak is also filled with all sorts of juicy sales data but all of it is stolen info. That hasn´t stopped Wikipedia from reporting on let´s say Wikileaks though. 2A00:1F:8701:4001:C054:2A8A:B23E:172D (talk) 16:22, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Statista is a deprecated source per WP:STATISTA. Timur9008 (talk) 18:26, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Statista has a website-wide consensus against its use. That's not going to work. Sergecross73   msg me  16:39, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * To add on this, Statistia literally uses Wikipedia for its source half the time. In this case, they specifically cite VGChartz, which has been considered unreliable for sales figures and estimates for near forever. Statista making graphs from VGChartz's data doesn't make it any more reliable. -- ferret (talk) 18:10, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Noting for the record that I archived 5-6 duplicate sections requesting this same edit to reduce clutter and try to keep discussion centralized. -- ferret (talk) 16:02, 31 March 2024 (UTC)

From the guardian today, a bit more than "an approximatation", in that Jim claims the sales figure was celebrated internally "Ryan claims that 160m was celebrated as an internal sales milestone", so they had some of internal "hurrah we just hit 160m". that would suggest not approximate but they hit (and assumedly passed) that milestone Dimspace (talk) 16:49, 3 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Please provide the source, as we have to have it to confirm anything. Edit: Nevermind, found it. Ryan claims that 160m was celebrated as an internal sales milestone, but Sony never actually announced it.. Is this claim actually in the Podcast? What time stamp? -- ferret (talk) 17:28, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

It should at least be fine to be added to the note about it, right? --MegaZeroX7 (talk) 19:01, 11 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Your note is so vague it's probably going to raise more questions than provide answers to anyone... Sergecross73   msg me  23:29, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Criteria to fit this list
I can see there is a lot of inconsistency with what is chosen to be on this list and not. On one side the list has both dedicated and non dedicated home consoles. One thing to note is that the Odysseys also made dedicated versions and I believe those add up to the units sold being used here. So in that case there is even a mix of dedicated/nondedicated consoles. “ Dedicated consoles are a subset of game consoles that are only able to play built-in games. Video game consoles in general are also described as "dedicated" in distinction from the more versatile personal computer and other consumer electronics.” On the other hand portable consoles only accept non dedicated. Game and Watch not here for example. ” A handheld game console is a lightweight device with a built-in screen, controls, speakers, and has greater portability than a standard video game console. It is capable of playing multiple games unlike tabletop and handheld electronic game devices.”

So this criteria should be specified: For this list, dedicated portable consoles are not accepted but dedicated home consoles yes.

Another example of incoherence is the absence of consoles like the steamdeck because “it doesn’t have its own dev kit”. Dedicated consoles dont have devkits and there are probably other things on this list without devkits. Another criteria that needs to be specified.

There are some add-on consoles but then others aren’t allowed because they are more like accessories to the eyes of someone.

The Nokia ngage which is a phone primarily is here but other consoles with dual purposes aren’t included don’t know why.

The only real criteria established by this article is that it needs to have sold more than 1 million units (which is a shame because it weeds out classics like the Magnavox Odyssey).

I guess where I’m trying to head is that in order to avoid confusion there needs to be a text explicitly stating the scope and limitations of this list. WOWLWOWL 18:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)


 * It’s interesting that you mention that the list has some add-ons - I thought I removed them all not too long ago. I did so because, in another discussion (where I proposed the PocketStation be added), other editors held that we ought to get rid of entries that were more like accessories than their own independent systems. The add-ons seemed to fit the bill.
 * As for dedicated home systems versus dedicated handhelds, I’m under the impression that the home systems in the list made it because they still have multiple games (thus they are consoles by definition), while handhelds like the Game & Watch are generally single-game only. I agree though, the lead should be redefined to accommodate that. I’ll find the time to work on it.
 * Lastly, it is indeed strange that the N-Gage is included. By that logic, you’d think the iPhone, one of the most successful platforms to have video games ever, would be here. But it isn’t. At the very least the iPod touch, which doesn’t have the cell phone feature, & was marketed mainly for its ability to play App Store games, should easily be here if N-Gage is. TavianCLirette (talk) 22:20, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * As the source in the article notes, n-Gage, at the time, was considered by reliable sources to be a console/phone hybrid. I'm indifferent to its inclusion, but that was probably the logic of whoever added it. I'd lean way more towards removing it than adding iPads/ipods/iphones, as they simply are not classified as consoles. Sergecross73   msg me  23:05, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
 * N-Gage used distinct physical media for games, too. Not that physical media is a requirement of consoles, but the distinct, closed platform format (as opposed to the open platform format of PC games) is a console characteristic. oknazevad (talk) 15:23, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Yup, that too. They had a defined library of physical games, and the games and consoles were sold in video game retail stores too. I can see how editors/reliable sources could group them into consoles. Sergecross73   msg me  15:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The reason for omitting the Game & Watch series and similar LCD games (like Tiger Electronics') as much as them being individual games only is that they're not video games. Their displays are incapable of displaying video. oknazevad (talk) 00:31, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Ideally every game console that we know in our hearts are game consoles should be included in this list. G&W, Magnavox, Steamdeck, N-Gage, the add on consoles, even pocketstation and tiger electronics as a whole, etc. Im all for having the most complete list. Ipads, computers, cellphones, clones and emulation consoles have no reason to be here though.


 * What this article should have is a text that exposes every set of criteria that is taken into account to make it to this list.


 * Im saying this because this wikipedia article is currently the main one in this “best selling game consoles” subject. So every time someone comes here to check the position of a console that we all consider a game console and sees some inconsistency, we’re gonna be opening up the same discussions so its better to just refer to reading the set of criteria. WOWLWOWL 15:23, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * we know in our hearts are game consoles is simply not how Wikipedia works. You should understand by now that we reflect what is stated and covered by secondary reliable sources. Those are not consoles. They are various peripherals, accessories, and in some cases simply not referred to as consoles (Tiger handhelds). -- ferret (talk) 16:04, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Exactly. We cannot operate on subjective criteria like "what one knows in their hearts" because that will vary wildly across different editor's opinions. Sergecross73   msg me  16:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I know that bro, Im not saying that we use our own opinions as a source. Im saying that I think it Would be better to include all consoles we all know are real market consoles and then find sources for them and make them “legal”. But in any case I suggest the article just includes the criteria taken into account and use that as a guide/reference point for any debate. Which is the topic of this discussion, not which/what are the criteria. Do you think something like that can help keep the article more transparent? WOWLWOWL 18:53, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It's impossible to answer a hypothetical question like that without an actual set of criteria. Whether or not it would help would be 100% on what the criteria actually would be. Sergecross73   msg me  19:42, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * It isn't a hypothetical issue sergecross, its as simple as if it would be beneficial or not to write a set of filter. Its an idea to be discussed not a rough draft of it since it hasn't even been discussed. Anyways in that sense, for example a few criteria I think have been discussed:


 * Criteria for home consoles:
 * - +1 million units sold
 * - dedicated and non dedicated are accepted
 * - have its own game library
 * - have its own dev kit
 * - add-on consoles are not accepted
 * - emulation consoles are not accepted (except for the official licensed “mini” variants??)
 * - computers are not accepted
 * - VR consoles are accepted
 * - single country exclusives like the segas in Brasil are not accepted
 * - clones/homebrew not accepted


 * Criteria for handheld:
 * - +1 million units sold
 * - Dedicated are not accepted
 * - lcd screens are not accepted
 * - have its own game library
 * - have its own dev kit
 * - emulation devices not accepted
 * - clones/homebrew not accepted
 * - Consoles that are also mobile phones and/or computers not accepted
 * - mobile phones and tablets not accepted


 * of course this is worded very primitively and casually but the idea is something that avoids future debates if things are already cleared up WOWLWOWL 22:33, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Maybe even make a separate table just for these that functions sort of like a blacklist WOWLWOWL 22:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)