Talk:List of best-selling girl groups/Archive 4

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The Saturdays
HOW IS THE Saturdays a best selling girl group like it says at the top!? it says girls aloud yeah because they ave got 20 top ten hits Ect we know they are but putting the saturdays there isnt right!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.4.43.216 (talk) 13:52, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Sales figures
This article does not specify whether the sales figures being used in the top chart are album sales, single sales, or some kind of formula that combines the two. This should be clarified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Schnapps17 (talk • contribs) 03:55, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Best-selling girl group singles in the US
This top ten is complete WP:SYNTH I'm afraid – there have been many, many girl group singles that have sold more than one million copies in the US, but as there were no multi-platinum awards before 1976 it is impossible to say if any singles before that date sold more than two million copies, or three million. Additionally, the RIAA website is not reliable – the certifcations themselves are correct, but RIAA haven't taken into account that certification levels before 1989 were twice what they are now, so any single that was certified a million-seller before 1989 received a gold certification, not a platinum one. This can easily be verfied by looking at any Hot 100 chart in Billboard magazine before this date, where the certification levels are stated at the bottom of the chart. Richard3120 (talk) 13:45, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I support reinstating the previous table of all the singles that have certified sales of 1 million per Richard3120's explanation. Bennv3771 (talk) 04:50, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

The Supremes: correct record sales
They've sold around 20 million, not 100 million.
 * Hi please remember to sign your comments by typing "~" four times. Pinging  since (s)he added The Supremes. Bennv3771 (talk) 04:56, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Personally I don't believe either figure is correct – it's not all that clear from the wording in the book, but I think the 20 million is for album sales only. On the other hand, 100 million seems extremely high, considering they never had any million-selling singles outside the US – Diana Ross has said in the past that she has sold 100 million records... she's probably including her solo work in addition to the Supremes, and the Euronews article has therefore used this figure. As Berry Gordy refused to allow any certifications or sales figues for Motown records to be released until 1977, after the Supremes had split up (this is why they have virtually no certifications on the RIAA website, despite having 14 singles subsequently confirmed as selling one million or more), it's likely that we will never know the true sales figure for the group, but I suspect it's somewhere in between these two extremes, around 40–50 million records in total (I know, I know, complete OR and guesswork on my part). But this is a clear example of why that top ten list should only be come from a single reliable source, not from lots of different sources, otherwise you get an extreme range of figures like this one. I know made a similar observation a few months ago. Richard3120 (talk) 05:09, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

Use of InsiderMonkey for worldwide sales figures
and any other editor watching this page. As we all know, the main source of contention in this article is the table of best-selling girl groups worldwide, especially sales of Korean girl groups. There seems to be a collective acceptance that this list on InsiderMonkey is an acceptable source, but I've come to the conclusion that it isn't, for two reasons. Firstly, this question at the reliable sources noticeboard received a reply that implies that the author of the article was not a paid contributor to the InsiderMonkey website, and therefore the list should not be considered a reliable source. Secondly, and more worryingly, is the issue of where the InsiderMonkey list was sourced from. The list (not quoting a source for its figures) was published on 15 October 2015... now have a look at the version of this Wikipedia article on that same date. The sales figures are identical, right down to the strangely precise 36.18 million sales for T-ara. I believe that the InsiderMonkey list was in fact taken from Wikipedia, and therefore is invalid as a source per WP:CIRCULAR.

That leaves us with two possible top ten lists as a source: this one in the New York Daily News from 2013, which doesn't have sales figures but IS supplied directly by Nielsen SoundScan, so it should be as verifiable as anyone can get... or this one from ITV in 2017 – but looking at the ITV sales figures, I have a feeling they are also sourced from that same previous version of the Wikipedia page, so may be invalid as well.

So... given all these issues, is it worth having a top ten list at all? Richard3120 (talk) 20:33, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I unfortunately have no stance on the matter, being a pending changes reviewer reverting on patrol. This is something that has to be said by the other two. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 20:36, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * no problem, and apologies for including you in the notification. Richard3120 (talk) 20:38, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Perhaps instead of a top 10 list, the list could just be a list of girl groups with claims of 30 million (or whatever number) or more record sales. Similar to what the List of best-selling music artists, List of best-selling albums and List of best-selling singles articles do. Bennv3771 (talk) 09:17, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * that was going to be my next suggestion. It would bring this article into line with other "List of best-selling xxxx" articles – it would also allow us to quote two or more sources where the claimed sales figures differ, as "List of best-selling music artists" does (very useful for the Supremes, for instance, where we have figures that range from 20 million to 100 million). The editor Harout72, who oversees that article, has copies of worldwide certified sales for most artists which could be used to back up the claimed sales figures. Obviously in the case of the Supremes, this won't help very much at all, as Motown wasn't affiliated to RIAA until 1980, so all its certifications for the 1960s and 1970s are retrospective, and done as and when they felt like it.
 * I know everybody loves to see once-and-for-all defined sales figures and rankings, but the truth is that this is impossible to ever obtain. Most people don't realise that even in the US and UK, sales figures were not collected properly until the 1990s, and obviously for other countries there is even more uncertainty. Look at the heated and still unresolved discussion at Talk:ABBA, for example, where two supposedly reliable sources, Billboard and the BBC, both quote the group's total sales as 400 million... yet the accepted figure is 150–200 million. That's not a small error in anyone's book – a 250 million sales difference is more than almost any artist has ever sold. Certifications don't provide the answer either – see this article from Billboard in 2006, where Billboard and Nielsen Soundscan basically admit that the Grease soundtrack is way under-certified by RIAA (it's still only 8× platinum eleven years later, by the way), and that they have absolutely no idea of its total sales in the US... if the official chart compiler finds it impossible to give sales for one of the best-selling albums of all time in their own country, how are we going to find accurate figures for the rest of the world? Richard3120 (talk) 15:05, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2017
9th Best Selling Girl Group worldwide, Little Mix, 30 Million records (ref: https://celebmix.com/little-mix-presented-plaque-recognition-30-million-record-sales/ ). Thank you. 197.211.56.79 (talk) 16:26, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. This is why the page was protected, was because fans were inflating the worldwide sales table. This is also an unreliable source. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 16:35, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
 * It's not just the source that's unreliable: it's an in-house award from their own record label, with no independent verification of the figures. Very likely 30 million is a correct figure, but it's for "units" rather than "sales", as much of it will include streaming-equivalent figures. Richard3120 (talk) 18:54, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 August 2017
Change the list of best selling girlgroups of all time and put Little Mix on it, please. Here is the verification:. The last girl group sold 20M and LM sold over 30M. 87.250.46.124 (talk) 19:54, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. This list counts "sales", not "units." jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 20:09, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

About Girls' Generation/SNSD's sales
Ok guys, the numbers we have on this article are really, REALLY outdated. As of now, they have around 76 million sales worldwide (including both digital and physical sales), but whenever I try to edit the article with the correct numbers and sources, someone reset it to the old numbers (from 2014 I believe, and probably including only the digital sales). Why?


 * I agree with this. Why is it that we give actual information on numbers. This wiki page isn't edited.


 * P.s. 2ne1 numbers included 2009 sales why SNSD numbers don't include them at all


 * OMG STOP EDITING IT !!!!!!!!!!!! SNSD have over 7 million physical single and 70 digital singles (group + solos sub-units) and we gave legit sources STOP DELETING IT! 2NE1's sales are including ESTIMATIONS which is NOT proof - without it they'd be behind 50M


 * Seems that the mod of this page is biased against SNSD... If we're not going to be serious and use outdated receipts, just delete the page.


 * Non-group sales (especially SOLO) shouldn't be counted in a list of the best selling girl GROUPS. This should apply to all the groups, not just Girls' Generation. And yes, the Korean official charts may combine all those sales together, but this is a worldwide comparison and other countries don't combine them. Doesn't make sense to combine solo+group sales only for kpop groups and compare them to group-only sales for non-kpop groups. We should compare apples to apples.


 * so y'all don't wanna include solos for SNSD but let 2NE1 have 20M estimations sales and 10M of solos? 2NE1 group AND confirmed sales are not even more than 40M. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:8A83:B840:ADDC:97DC:6AA2:E02C (talk) 19:40, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Nope. None of the groups should have solo sales including 2NE1. But I think the problem some editors had with the previous changes was that people were using forum posts as citations for the numbers they were giving, which aren't considered verifiable/reliable sources on wiki. Hence the change (not by me) back to the old numbers for 2NE1 and Girls' Generation. So if you can find good non-forum sources, go ahead and correct the 2NE1 sales if they are wrong. Bennv3771 (talk) 03:17, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

American/International charts works totally differently. For America, it's certifications, for Korea, there's nothing about "certifications" but just weekly/montlhy/yearly sales (that's why they have such clear and specified sales). So how could we put each links of each weeks and months and year, considering the chart was reduced from a top 400 to top 100, and from 2010 to 2017 (since it's harder to find in 2007 to 2009)? That's impossible.. We don't have article anymore, the last one is from end of 2015 and was only counting digital. SNSD are WAY over these numbers, so we all spent a lot of time counting everything, and a forum is the only thing we could do. If you look at that same forum (called OneHallyu) you'll find a 2NE1 sales thread too, and basically InsiderMonkey took the sales from this forum, which means it includes all their solos and estimations (which is obviously inflated, because selling 20M for 1 album in one year in your debut is too much, but that's an opinion...). As a result from this - 49M are digital sales & 750k are physical sales. We have no other way to share their full sales except like this, except if a website makes an article again...

So you say solos shouldn't be included when the list of best selling boyband includes Big Bang, which includes a LOT of their solos work (almost a half) in their 140M record...
 * Then go correct the Big Bang sales and remove the solo sales if you have reliable sources supporting your claim. Bennv3771 (talk) 02:43, 25 June 2017 (UTC)
 * FYI, Big Bang's sales have been removed from the list of best selling boybands. If you would like to discuss their sales, you can do so at the Boy Band talk page Talk:Boy band. Bennv3771 (talk) 06:32, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
 * ? Nope, it's still here. But nevermind. Forget all I said, we already know anyway the full ranking.
 * Yeah, it was added in after my above comment. Ugh go ahead and remove it, I would support it. Also, please remember to sign your posts. Bennv3771 (talk) 02:38, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

I've edited yesterday, but it was removed. Thought I used real/confirmed website as sources... I don't understand why other people use this website as source for other girl groups? In the same website, it is written that SNSD has sold over 57.1 million album and 2NE1 sold over 66.5 million... Btw on the same ranking there are the Spice Girls with 85 million and on Wikipedia it's written 85 million: it's normal. But for SNSD and 2NE1, people keep deleting them. SONEfr (talk) 09:46, 21 August 2017 (UTC)SONEfr
 * I have some sympathy with you ... why is the website considered valid for some groups, but not for Korean ones. But my main concern is that I believe the InsiderMonkey website should not be used at all – see below. Richard3120 (talk) 20:33, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Ok thanks^^ ... Oh I see, the InsiderMonkey website is not a real certicated source... Ok! I didn't know it^^ But where can we find the real ranking? Because I think that if 2NE1 and SNSD are mention in this website (and on ITV) it's not for nothing... I think it's because they have sold a lot of album, and honestly (as an Asian music fan, not only k-pop!) I can say that 2NE1 and SNSD are more famous than morning mosume and SPEED (that for sure)... But I understand that I'm not a real source^^ — Preceding unsigned comment added by SONEfr (talk • contribs) 06:15, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
 * 2NE1 might be more popular now, but Morning Musume and Speed were around a long time before 2NE1, that's why they've sold more records.
 * I'm afraid that it's almost impossible to have a definite ranking, because nobody has complete sales figures for the whole world – if you look at List of best-selling music artists you will see that there is no ranking, only artists grouped within ranges of claimed sales of 250+ million, 200–249 million, etc. and with different sources for different claimed sales figures. This is the best we can do – I'm sorry, we will never know the complete sales figures. The InsiderMonkey and ITV sales figures were based on unsourced numbers from Wikipedia, so we can't use those websites because it would be like Wikipedia quoting itself. Richard3120 (talk) 15:05, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Allkpop recently posted a list of all-time recorded digital sales and a list of all-time recorded physical sales by korean girl groups, with the original source coming from an chinese article. Since AKP is a huge website and has some sort of credibility (at least more than some sources used in this page), what is the excuse now?
 * We have no idea where the figures from that "original source" come from – the various charts included at the bottom (including Gaon and Oricon) suggest that somebody has attempted to calculate total sales from using various charts, and therefore it's original research and not official sales figures. Richard3120 (talk) 22:52, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Allkpop is not considered a reliable source as has been discussed before on WP:RSN. As said above, we have no idea where they got their numbers from, and what those numbers include. It seems to include solo sales based on the fan sources that keep getting cited. Bennv3771 (talk) 15:42, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

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Best selling single?
There was an edit that I said I reverted because I couldn't find any proof. Well, said single has 10 million copies sold now, so... true? Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me &#124; Contributions). This message was left at 00:42, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Which one are you talking about? The edit you reverted was for best-selling single, not album. Richard3120 (talk) 01:06, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, corrected. I was just trying to get consensus. Here's a diff. Regards, User:TheDragonFire300. (Contact me &#124; Contributions). This message was left at 01:13, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah OK, thanks. But where does your 10 million sales figure come from? And anyway, comparing "sales" for Fifth Harmony or Little Mix to previous girl groups is a bit suspect as they "sell" relatively little in reality, it's mostly streamed. Richard3120 (talk) 01:41, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
 * This article makes one reference to 10 million sales. I asked this question so that we wouldn't dismiss the anon's edit as false because it wasn't referenced. But then, it IS a tweet, so dismiss it?

Deleting Little Mix off top 10 list
Why do you keep deleting Little Mix off the top 10 list when their sales have been confirmed by syco, Global and MTV? They should be 7th on the list at 45 million records world wide. In fact, why are they not on the list at all? They should at least be at 9 because they’ve for sure sold 30 million records by early 2017 and received a plaque to prove it. Why can’t they be on the list? Barbiegirlyforever21 (talk) 00:54, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Talk:Little Mix/Archive 2. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 01:14, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
 * And MTV confirmed it too, so I don't understand why someone is keep reverting it and says it's an unreliable source.LittleMixer (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:07, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Please, read the talk page. Cornerstonepicker (talk) 00:03, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Fifth Harmony
Hi. I don't understand why Fifth Harmony aren't here in the list. Because they have more than 20 million certified sales. And the have so many singles certified Platinum in the US.Elmisterioso1979 (talk) 22:15, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
 * It's because there isn't a reliable source that explicitly states how many sales they have (since certifications do not necessarily equate to sales), so it would be a WP:SYNTH statement on our behalf to assume this from the certifications. To be honest, I've said from the start that this list is a nightmare to maintain accurately. We have no accurate definition of a "girl group" (does it include the Dixie Chicks, or Salt-N-Pepa?), and I am pretty certain that at least two genuine girl groups are missing from the 20 million+ sales list, the Bangles and Sister Sledge. But as I can't find any RS stating their sales, I have to leave them off the list. The claimed sales of the Supremes range from 20 million to 100 million... the actual number is likely somewhere around 40 million, but nobody can verify this as there are no sales data available for them. The "sales" of Little Mix and Fifth Harmony are mostly streams, so they should be in a separate table, as you can't compare them directly to the actual sales of the groups before the streaming era. If you can find an RS that states explicitly "Fifth Harmony have sold 20 million records" you can add it to the list. Richard3120 (talk) 23:21, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Salt-N-Pepa is considerated one of the best girl groups of all time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGs0KHxngIs Elmisterioso1979 (talk) 18:08, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
 * That's just a personal opinion from a non-RS website... what I mean is, there is no official definition of what a "girl group" is, or which groups it includes. Some people don't include Salt-n-Pepa because they are a hip hop group. Likewise, they don't include the Dixie Chicks because they are a country music band. And when do girl groups start? Should you include girl groups from before the 1950s, like the Boswell Sisters and the Andrews Sisters? Richard3120 (talk) 22:23, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I found a reference from E Online who said that Fifth Harmony sold 33 millions records. i don't know if this is value. but check for yourself. https://www.eonline.com/mx/news/809651/top-25-los-grupos-femeninos-mas-influyentes-de-todos-los-tiempos-videos Elmisterioso1979 (talk) 23:47, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

Fifth Harmony
i'm sorry but fifth harmony has sold over 50 million of records, their sales has never been confirmed for whatever reason but they sold 33 million in 2016, so that source is completely old, I have calculated for myself, and their sales are 50 million and continue to increase--148.101.19.126 (talk) 14:35, 22 April 2019 (UTC)anonymous user
 * So you think it's better to remove it completely, rather than have any figure at all? Knowing the Little Mix and Fifth Harmony stans, your edit will be reverted by them sooner rather than later. Richard3120 (talk) 17:13, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

oh i think it had to be removed, but i didn't remove it, i don't know who did it, maybe it was a person who thinks like me, by the way it's better like that or only having litte mix on the list, if you guys don't know fifth harmony's sales--179.53.72.221 (talk) 22:55, 22 April 2019 (UTC)annoymous user
 * Funny that... the editor who removed their sales has the exact same computer IP address as the comment made above, and did it just three minutes after the comment was posted. Anyway, this is the problem with "best-selling ..." lists like this – accurate sales figures are hard to find, and almost impossible to get hold of before 1990, so we'll probably never know how many records the groups before 1990 actually sold. Richard3120 (talk) 23:08, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

well, i really don't know what do you have to spy people like that, but I can assure you that I did not do it, I was going to edit it and it appeared to me that someone else was already editing them, by the way , It is better that when real sales got confirmed, they can enter the list — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.255.59.80 (talk) 16:00, 24 April 2019 (UTC)
 * It's nothing to do with spying, the address is right there for everyone to see – your first comment above in this thread was made using the IP address 148.101.19.126... this is also the exact same address that was used to remove the sales from the article, and as the IP address is unique for each device in the world connected to the internet, it means the same computer/laptop/cellphone was used to remove the sales as make your comment, and they were done three minutes apart. Richard3120 (talk) 16:12, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Inflated sales in Best-selling girl group albums (Worldwide)
Why in this page you try to be the most accurated (according to certifications and peak positions in charts) in all but the sales of "Best-selling girl group albums (Worldwide)"? I think we should keep the sales in that page as in the articles albums: Spice 23kk, TLC's Cool 14kk, "Spiceworld" 13kk and so on...What do you think? I don't want to begin an war with you--88marcus (talk) 08:08, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Who is "you"... who are you asking? The sales in the Worldwide section have all come from reliable sources, there's no reason to change them... it's more likely the the individual album articles should be updated. Richard3120 (talk) 14:51, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * No need to be rude. None of those sales in the Worldwide section are reliable (None came from IFPI, and it seems they came from Wikipedia itself) and all these albums were out of print all over the world shortly after their releases, as with almost every album. It makes no sense for an album that sold 20 million while it was being divulged by the label, selling another 5 or 10 million while off the charts or out of print. What we can do here is be the more accurated according to charts and certifications. I don't think inflated sales are appropriate here.--88marcus (talk) 16:01, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I wasn't being rude, I'm sorry if it came across that way... I genuinely didn't know who you were addressing your post to, it's not clear.
 * I never like "best-selling" articles like this one, it's almost impossible to get accurate worldwide sales for any artist or album, so I find them meaningless, and even more so now that "sales" are actually streams these days, so you can't compare Fifth Harmony and Little Mix's "sales" to those of the Supremes or Spice Girls. We don't really know if the figures in this article are inflated, or if they are more accurate than in the album articles, but I suspect if you try changing the figures, some other editor will just revert them. The NME article quoting the 23m sales figures for Spice in that album's article... that is a blog and almost certainly IS sourced from Wikipedia, so I consider it a less reliable source than the one in this article quoting 31m, for example.
 * Out of interest, do you think it would still be possible to obtain the 85m total sales that the Spice Girls supposedly have, if you lower their album sales to those in the album articles? Richard3120 (talk) 17:01, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I didn't understood your answer initially but now I see that it was my bad, so sorry for that (English is not my first language). There are other websites claiming 23kk too and the 31m seems pretty inflated. I don't want to begin a edition war, so I will pass that. Thank you for your answer.--88marcus (talk) 01:31, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * No problem - I understand your frustration, but it's very difficult to obtain accurate and "correct" sales figures for any musical artist, especially before the 1990s, and I don't think these sales figures will ever be correct. If I change them, I'm certain someone else will change them again using another source. From your edit history, I'm guessing your native language is Spanish - si prefieres conversar en ese idioma no hay problema para mí. :-) Richard3120 (talk) 01:47, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Almost there. I'm speak Portuguese. I'm from Brazil. jajajaja. :) Thanks anyway for your answers here.--88marcus (talk) 04:24, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

The Andrew Sisters
The articles used as references for 75M sold seem press releases from representatives. I've found this instead, that says 60M. Maybe needs a better one. As I can't find their certifications... Cornerstonepicker (talk) 02:01, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
 * According to the official website of the group and according to the newspaper "the washington post", they have sold 90 million records until 2013.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by AndrewSistersfans (talk • contribs) 20:22, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The sources are reliable ones... the bigger point is whether the Andrews Sisters should be classified as a "girl group" and be included on this list anyway – they aren't what most people would define as a girl group. But that's the whole problem with this page – no reliable definition of a girl group, no criteria for inclusion or exclusion, no criteria for what music should be included (The Dixie Chicks? Salt 'n' Pepa?), no definition of the minimum number of members, no reliable worldwide sales sources before the 1990s, and now streams and YouTube views count as "sales" which is heavily biased towards groups of the last decade... it's impossible to make a definitive list. Richard3120 (talk) 21:13, 16 July 2019 (UTC)