Talk:List of birds of Palestine

Two suggestions
This seems to be a very difficult project you've taken on.

First, any of these flora or fauna lists need to cover a well-defined area. This article links to Palestine, but that article notes that the term has been used to mean different areas. So this article should say exactly what area it covers. Also, it should handle in a neutral way any controversies over the use of "Palestine" for the area.

For the taxonomy, you can follow List of birds of Israel; unless your Palestine includes Jordan, I doubt it will have many birds that aren't on that list. However, there's a proposal at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject Birds for Wikipedia to follow the World Bird List of the International Ornithological Congress. I hope a decision will be made soon, and you might want to wait for it. If we do go to the IOC names, you can get a list of birds of Israel according to those names from Avibase. Most of WP's country lists are from Avibase, some of them with various corrections. (I can see one mistake at List of birds of Israel&mdash;either the Somali Ostrich shouldn't be on it, or it should be labeled "introduced". I just removed it. )

Supposedly, though, these region lists follow the nomenclature used in the region. If there's a consensus on bird nomenclature in this region, you should follow it.

I hope this is useful. &mdash;JerryFriedman (Talk) 13:24, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you. It is. But I was wondering if you know why Avibase does not have a listing for Palestine for at least for the Palestinian territories. While the list for Israel may be relevant to an article on Palestine, its scope (if defined as a geographical region) is much larger. And do you know if the Israel listing includes the Palestinian territories? Because the Dead Sea basin region has its own ecology which attracts different birds than regions like the Galilee, and its located in the West Bank. If you don't know, I'm sorry for pestering you. Thanks again.  T i a m u t talk 19:02, 29 July 2009 (UTC)


 * You're not pestering me at all. Your questions about the Avibase listing occurred to me too, but I don't know the answers. &mdash;JerryFriedman  (Talk) 13:53, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reply, even if it doesn't answer the question, I'm ahppy to know I'm not being an annoyance. :)  T i a m u t talk 14:19, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Question
Tiamut, can you say what is meant by "Palestine" in "Birds of Palestine?" It's a term that has more than one meaning, as I know you know. IronDuke 20:12, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * There is a wikilink, right on top, in the second sentence. This is a wiki, which is not paper to be spelt all in the same page, as I know you know. Laudak (talk) 19:14, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the reply. Okay... so are these birds of Israel, West Bank, Gaza, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria? Or just "greater Israel" (so to speak)? Or just the territories? IronDuke  21:20, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * The sources being used define Palestine in different ways. Some are referring to part of the geographic region known as Palestine, some seem to refer to the occupied Palestinian territories only, but also use "Palestine", presumably using it in the sense of the State of Palestine or hoped for future state.
 * I plan to deal with the terminological differences by fleshing out the intro and footnotes to this end, explaining the different source definitions. If possible I will eventually, denote bird by bird, which are in the territories and which in areas beyond.  T i a m u t talk 21:24, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That mostly sounds good to me... would it be possible to say somewhere in the first graf that what's meant here is the borders of ancient Palestine, and what those borders are? I'm not sure we can classify birds in terms of being denizens of a "hoped for future state." IronDuke  21:30, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, its not really "ancient Palestine" that the sources discuss. Tristram discusses 19th century Palestine which was under the rule of Ottoman Empire and defines an area covering about 5000 km2 (pretty much Mandate Palestine minus the Negev). The Handbook of Palestine (1923) discusses Mandate Palestine. Contemporary sources either discuss Palestine defined as the OPT only, while others (also contemporary) refer to Palestine as the boundaries of Mandate Palestine. So its a bit more complicated than one sentence I think and the words "ancient Palestine" ain't in it.  T i a m u t talk 23:57, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right, it is quite complicated. IronDuke  00:11, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Merge discussion
For the sake of clarity about the geographical region, uniformity, and since we are talking about a single unit in terms of biology, I suggest we merge the two articles into an article called List of birds in Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip. The name is based on the name of this existing article Biodiversity in Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip. DrorK (talk) 08:23, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

How many of these birds "in Israel" are in the Golan? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:14, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I prefer to compose articles using the terminology employed in reliable sources. The sources cited in this article use the term "Palestine". Therefore, I would oppose merging this information into an article that does not have "Palestine" in its title.  T i a m u t talk 15:10, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Somehow I expected your responses. Supreme Deliciousness seems to be worried only about the "Syrianship" of the Golan Heights, while Tiamut seem to worry only about the "Palestinianship" of the rest of the territory. Give it a rest. This is ornithology. Birds fly over borders, so practically any bird that flies over Damascus is very likely to fly also over Beirut, Haifa and Karmiel. Nevertheless, we do divide the biological world into geographical, sometimes even geopolitical entity, as a matter of convenience. It is quite irrational to talk about Israel the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as separate entities in this respect - it is practically the same biological environment. Luckily we don't have to debate about the naming issue, because it has already been debated with regard to other biology-related article, and the decision was "Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip". A very good decision, in my opinion, that should make everyone happy. DrorK (talk) 16:04, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know how many times I've asked you not to refer to editor motivations, but since you refuse to stop doing it, I'm going to reply in kind by saying its clear what your motivation here and it isn't geographical clarity.
 * As I said, the sources here use Palestine. Some of them use it to refer to the geogrphical region of Palestine, some of them use it to refer to and occupied territories only. How each source defines the area is discussed in the introduction.
 * What happened regarding a naming debate from over two years ago at another article doesn't necessarily require the same thing happen here. Any article proposed article title that does not use Palestine, cannot accomodate the information here since the sources cited here do use that term. If you want to discuss merging to an article named List of birds in Israel-Palestine, I would be willing to consider the merits or demerits of that title. Otherwise the articles should remain separate.  T i a m u t talk 16:13, 25 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Tiamut, playing the innocent doesn't become you, so please stop. You have opened numerous articles which includes the name Palestine, deliberately trying to obscure the distinction between the geographical and the political meaning. You try to force WP readers into believing that the region known in English as Palestine has been an Arab homeland from the beginning of time. This is very obvious from your actions, and it is wrong, because these are politically motivated edits. Had I wanted to make a pro-Israeli statement through WP I could have initiated an article called "Flowers in Judea and Samaria" or something similar. I have never done such a thing, and I have no such intention. You, on the other hand, have done several such actions. In most cases they were eventually corrected, not before you kept a lot of people busy by trying to hinder these corrections. Now, you admit yourself that the term "Palestine" in this context is problematic due to lack of clear definition. There is a valid wise decision regarding another article of this kind. You should give your political campaign a rest, and respect the nature of WP. DrorK (talk) 23:48, 25 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not on a campaign Drork. You are. I did not create State of Palestine. You have tried to have it merged into Proposals for a Palestinian state, and everyone has said that is a bad idea. I realize that the word Palestine offends you, but it is a valid word and concept and deserves representation in this encyclopedia.
 * You might also want to take a look at List of native plants of Palestine (A-B). This is another article I did not create. When an editor tried to argue its name should be changed to something else, he dropped the issue after realizing that the reliable sources cited justify its use. Please take your political problem with Palestine somewhere else. Thanks.  T i a m u t talk 12:55, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

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