Talk:List of cathedrals in England

Pre-date
Many of these predate the Church of England. Surely we can find a better section heading. Rmhermen 20:17, Jun 15, 2004 (UTC)

I originally used the heading Church of England as there was no real break in succession between the pre-reformation church and the church as organised after Henry VIII's break from Rome.

It also being true, however, that the church in England pre-reformation could not be called "The Church of England" in the way the phrase is used today, I have amended the heading to what I consider a more accurate reflection without detracting from the original tenet. --JohnArmagh 22:10, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

But many Church of Enlgand Cathedrals weren't pre-reformation cathedrals, so the current heading is also slightly mis-leading. There are Old Foundation cathedrals, which were pre-Reformation cathedrals; New Foundation, which were raised to Cathedral status during the Reformation; and (those sometimes called) "Red-brick", 19th and 20th century cathedrals. Perhaps another symbol could be used to distinguish. Historically there were differences in the organisation (e.g. structure of the chapter) of the different types of cathedral, though I beleive virtually all have now disappeared with new statutes that were adopted form 2000 on. David Underdown 14:26, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Scotland
I rather resent JohnArmagh reverting my changes to Scotland, so I am putting them in again and ask that they be left this time. This article has something of an Anglican bias, which on the whole is fair given the nature of the topic, but a bit of repect for other Christian traditions does not go amis. In Scotland the National Church comes first - that is proper, and is universally accepted everywhere from the WCC to to the protocol of the British coronation ceremony. And the Church of Scotland's cathedrals are still called cathedrals, and therefore are not "former", even if the word cathedral (like the word bishop) is used slightly differenly in Presbyterianism. --Doric Loon 10:00, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Oh yes, and the Iona Community was founded under the auspices of the Church of Scotland. It is now interdenominational, so I don't mind whether it is placed under the CofS or stands alone, but it certaily does not fall under the Roman Catholic Church.--Doric Loon 10:06, 7 September 2005 (UTC)


 * I resent Doric Loon's contention (albeit a year ago) that his edits were irrevertable. Just because a building is referred to as a cathedral in common parlance does not make it a fact - especially when the fact is that the cathedral is specifically the seat of a bishop's throne (the cathedra) and the Presbyterian churches do not have bishops. --JohnArmagh 22:44, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:FLC
This looks like a decent candidate for a featured list, but it will need some references. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:05, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

nice page
Good work on this page, it looks great. And I can't help but notice that 10 of the pictures were taken by me. Woo!Soloist 20:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree - very good work done here - and it is now complete with References --JohnArmagh 19:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Guildford Cathedral
Why isnt guildford cathedral on the list?

Worcester Cathedral!!!
List doesn't seem quite complete as no mention of one of the lovliest cathedrals in the country at Worcester? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.100.100.18 (talk) 12:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC).


 * Worcester cathedral has always been there - it is just that the word 'Worcester' was mistakenly removed when the thumbnail was edited on 3 Feb 2007. --JohnArmagh 15:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Catholic Cathedrals
There's some work to do still on the list of Catholic cathedrals. The Ukrainian Catholic cathedral is listed in the wrong place - it should be listed with the other (Roman) Catholic cathedrals, even if it belongs to the Ukrainian (Byzantine) Rite rather than the Latin Rite. It's still part of the same 'organisation' as the other RC cathedrals.

On the other hand the 'cathedral' of the "Liberal Catholic Church" probably doesn't merit an entry appended to the list of bona fide Catholic cathedrals. This particular establishment strictly belongs to an outfit called the Reformed Liberal Catholic Church, founded way back in, er, 1999 and (like all similar bodies) riven by splits ever since; it's a bit unfair on the countless other similar groupings to make out that this one somehow uniquely has a 'real' cathedral.

Then some of the dating looks odd - how come all the cathedrals which came into being in 1850 (Salford, Shrewsbury, Nottingham, Northampton, Southwark etc.) are given that date as the date of foundation, except Birmingham, which puzzlingly has the date of 1839, eleven years before there was a Bishop of Birmingham? If the intention is to give the date of construction/opening/consecration/whatever of the building itself, then several other of the 1850 cathedrals have claims to an earlier date too.

C0pernicus (talk) 23:37, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Template clash
The contents page is clashing with the top entries of the table in a really big way, does anyone object to me putting a Clear template on? The white space between the bottom of the introduction and the end of the contents would be quite large, but it's better than having coordinate links peeking through them... Leth esl  22:53, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Hm looks like somebody did something similar anyway (I had mentioned it at Help Desk when finding how to do the clear). Leth  esl  23:13, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Change to template
Would this article be better of using templates, along the lines of LDS Temple list? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 21:52, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Cathedral towns
Please see Categories_for_discussion/Log/2009_March_10. Simply south (talk) 22:07, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

What counts as a "cathedral"?
I have tagged the churches listed under Free Church of England with on the grounds that the Church's own website (http://www.fcofe.org.uk/List_of_Churches.htm) does not use the word "cathedral", nor can I find any reference to "Morecambe Cathedral" anywhere on the internet except on sites derived from Wikipedia. (I suspect there might be similar issues with some of the other Churches but I haven't looked.) --Dr Greg (talk) 12:49, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Looking at the lead i have found this which would explain many. I'm not sure whether they fit or not. Simply south (talk) 15:52, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Title
Given that Northern Ireland isn't really covered, wouldn't it make more sense to call this List of cathedrals in Great Britain? john k (talk) 04:58, 16 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree in principle, however I feel that NI cathedrals should be given more coverage here seeing as they are part of the UK and not just the island of Ireland. Even a list of cathedrals for readers would suffice. Mabuska (talk) 12:55, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi all. A few months ago I took material from this article to create the article List of cathedrals in Scotland - I thought it made sense since Scotland has its own arrangements for churches etc. Perhaps another way forward would be to move this article to List of cathedrals in England and Wales, and remove the material about Scotland (but make sure the link is in the 'see also' section.) The List of cathedrals in the United Kindgom could then become a disambiguation page leading to List of cathedrals in Scotland, List of cathedrals in England and Wales and List of cathedrals in Ireland - the latter may be more controversial but most major denominations are organised on an all-Ireland basis, so it makes sense. Also England and Wales are often organised as one entity for church purposes - eg the Roman Catholic Church. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 19:08, 5 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Except that the Cathedrals in the Isle of Man, Gibraltar and Falklands, which are part of the ecclesiastically organisation of England are not located in England and Wales (or Great Britain, or indeed the United Kingdom). The dichotomy is whether the pages are to indicate ecclesiastical, secular political or geographical relevance. JohnArmagh (talk) 19:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * True, but to answer your question, I would assume that the most important aspect is ecclesiastical. Therefore an 'ecclesiastical' article about England and Wales could well include isle of Man etc. Just a thought. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 20:56, 5 January 2011 (UTC)


 * A disambiguation page with a list of links to each isn't the worst idea out there. Though only two denominations in the island of Ireland are organised on an all-Ireland basis - the Church of Ireland and Roman Catholic Church. Presbyterians adhere to the Synod of Ulster and Baptists, well not exactly sure how they are organised. Mabuska (talk) 23:28, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Mabuska, apart from the Church of Ireland and the Roman Catholic Church, the Methodist Church is divided into the Methodist Church of Great Britain and the Methodist Church in Ireland; the Baptist Church has three organisations for England and Wales, Ireland and Scotland; the Quakers split into the Britain Yearly Meeting and the Ireland Yearly Meeting and the pentecostal Assemblies of God used to be split UK/ Republic of Ireland, but recently reorganised to have a Assemblies of God in Great Britain and Assemblies of God Ireland. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 23:50, 5 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Ah, cheers. When you said "main" denominations, my understanding was that that refers to the CoI, Pres, RC, and Bap. Mabuska (talk) 00:04, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * So does that make the case for turning 'List of Cathedrals in the United Kingdom' into a disambiguation page stronger? I'm happy to do it if no-one is against that way forward. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 16:47, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The List of Cathedrals in Ireland is a potential troublesome one as you pointed out. Maybe make it a pipe-link such as List of Cathedrals in Northern Ireland to a section within that article so that it takes the reader straight to the NI cathedrals in the Ireland article? Though the article may need rewritten to make that distinction if one doesn't exist. Mabuska (talk) 20:24, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The List of Cathedrals in Ireland article makes no distinction between those in Northern Ireland and those in the Republic. However, the first sentence of the article could be reworded to make clear that the article deals with the island of Ireland because many of the major denominations are organised on an all-Ireland basis. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 22:19, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I stated in the last sentence the article could be rewritten or arranged, possibly. Mabuska (talk) 22:38, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I've now done it - hopefully in a way that will please everybody! I also reworded the first sentence of the List of cathedrals in Ireland article. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 22:53, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I think we should of gotten more opinion on it first Fishiehelper2 as it is essentially you and me. Mabuska (talk) 01:06, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Mabuska, though I think it makes more sense laid out this way, if others come along who completely disagree, the changes could easily be undone. That said, arranging the material with separate articles for each separate ecclesiastic area seems so logical, I'm not sure why anyone would really object. We'll see! Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 01:28, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I think the page name, List of cathedrals in England and Wales is misleading. The inclusion of ecclesiastical dependencies sharing a province with England and Wales may technically be correct but a distinction, I feel, that will be lost on the casual reader. At least make the title List of cathedrals in England and Wales and dependencies --Senra (Talk) 18:25, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The suggested title would be ambiguous. The so-called 'dependencies' are politically dependencies of the UK, not of England and Wales.  Neither are they dependencies ecclesiastically: the external dioceses are as much integral dioceses of the ecclesiastic organisation of England and Wales as are any of the mainland dioceses. JohnArmagh (talk) 20:50, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Lack of citations?
I think this list is wonderful. Indeed, I wiki-linked to it from Ely, Cambridgeshire in a cited quotation from Pevsner. However, I am concerned that this list lacks citations to reliable sources. I actually came to this list intending to add "Ship of the Fens" plus a citation to the Ely Cathedral entry. I decided not to, as no other entry in the list has any sources referenced. Without reliable sources, the credibility of this list, in my opinion at least, is reduced --Senra (Talk) 18:10, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Not a list of external links
As I thought, according to the What Wikipedia is not page, excessive numbers of external links are not allowed. So I removed them all again. Cobulator (talk) 19:33, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Might I please ask you to exercise restraint both in refraining from: (a) deleting established content from pages (as you appear to be doing to List of cathedrals in England and Wales; and (b) introducing new, potentially contentious material into pages (as you appear to be doing to various pages that relate to pre-reformation churches), without first reaching consensus (on the talk page) as to the appropriateness of such edits? TIA—GrahamSmith (talk) 20:31, 12 April 2012 (UTC)


 * The links are external references intended for citation purposes - not as a 'directory' JohnArmagh (talk) 18:41, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Stanley Cathedral (Falkland Islands)
Stanley Cathedral should not be listed here at all. It is NOT part of the Church of England, and listing it as part of the "Province of Canterbury" is misleading and incorrect. Unlike the Channel Islands, Gibraltar, and the Isle of Mann (which ARE part of the Church of England), the Falkland Islands form an independent Anglican Church called the "Church of the Falkland Islands", governed by a Bishop of the Falkland Islands. Historically this was part of the Province of the Southern Cone of America, but since 1977 it has been extra-provincial and independent. The Archbishop of Canterbury holds the office of Bishop of the Falkland Islands (ex officio) and delegates that authority to an ecclesiastical commissary called the Bishop for the Falkland Islands (currently Stephen Venner). However, none of this makes it part of the Church of England. There are other extra-provincial Anglican churches under the authority of the Archbishop of Canterbury (Bermuda, Sri Lanka, Spain, Portugal), but these also are NOT part of the Church of England. I will therefore remove Stanley from the list, as it really has no business being there. For any editor who remains unclear, please see the Anglican Communion website, where the Provincial Directory lists all independent member churches, starting with those which are provincial (including the Church of England), and ending with the very small extra-provincial member churches. The entry for the Falkland Islands is here, and for the Bishop for the Falkland Islands here. To keep Stanley Cathedral, it would need a section of its own (it can't be listed under "Church of England") and it would need a change to the title of the entire list.  Timothy Titus Talk To TT  12:56, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Inconsistencies in this list
Given the problem with Stanley Cathedral (section above) I've had a closer look, and there are lots of other glaring errors in this list. There needs to be some consensus on certain issues.
 * "Contents of this list" states that the list includes "all locations of current cathedral churches, or former cathedral churches, including those locations where no trace remains of the structure, indeed where the precise location is no longer known." Yet former cathedrals and sites of former cathedrals are NOT included - examples might include the ancient and ruined such as Elmham, the ancient and changed-use such as Hexham, or the more recently abandoned such as the old Coventry. Either the list is wrong or the description is wrong.


 * (They were originally included - until someone had the idea of putting them in a separate list. Unfortunately they did not have the foresight to amend the preamble. Perhaps those who introduced the other inconsistencies should address the points raised. JohnArmagh (talk) 13:46, 5 June 2012 (UTC))


 * The opening paragraphs state that pro-cathedrals are included, and yet the two Church of England pro-cathedrals (Valletta in Malta, and Brussels in Belgium) are not listed. Either pro-cathedrals are in or they are out, but the list needs to be consistent with the descriptive text.
 * Gibraltar is not a Crown Dependency - it is a British Overseas Territory. There is some justification for listing the Anglican cathedral, as it is part of the Church of England, but why is the Roman Catholic Cathedral listed? This is NOT part of the English Catholic Church. If it is listed simply because Gibraltar is a British Overseas Territory, then the question becomes 'Why are we not including cathedrals in OTHER British Overseas Territories', for example, Bermuda?


 * The justification for the inclusion of the Roman Catholic Cathedral in Gibraltar is that the Papal representative to Gibraltar is the Nuncio to Great Britain JohnArmagh (talk) 15:19, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

As the aim of any article or list is to get up to Good Article/List status, this list needs a lot of sorting out.  Timothy Titus Talk To TT  13:20, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Those in British Overseas territories should be in this list: List of cathedrals in British Overseas Territories.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 11:54, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Design and layout of this article
I find the design and layout of this article unsatisfactory. I propose reorganising it in a tidier fashion with sortable boxes. The dimensions are to be limited to the most pertinent: length, width at transepts, height of main tower, spire or dome. Sortable by length, as the best indicator of size. Please check out how the boxes sort by clicking the arrows. I have used this format successfully at List of Ancient Greek temples. Amandajm (talk) 11:51, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree - the current format is less than desirable.  Personally I would place the images in the second column, as in  articles such as the List of monastic houses in England, etc., as the first column should determine the ordering of the list. JohnArmagh (talk) 12:52, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Sort by year
Nice article, but it would be best if one could sort by year. --86.27.232.103 (talk) 20:39, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

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Ancient and Catholic Church section deleted
This had an entry for their cathedral of St Wilibord in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, but the dedicated article on Wikipedia makes it clear that the church was abandoned by them years ago. ShropshirePilgrim (talk) 22:44, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

"England and Wales"
Why is this list "England and Wales"? England and Wales are different countries, and more to the point, their respective national churches, the Church of England and Church in Wales are entirely separate and independent churches and provinces within the Anglican Communion. If this is meant to be a list of cathedrals in the United Kingdom, then it should also include Scotland and Northern Ireland. If not, then there should be different pages for England and Wales, perhaps each with a link to the other and those of other UK countries. aliceinlampyland (talk) 22:37, 14 October 2021 (UTC).