Talk:List of characters in the Star Fox series/Archive 1

Minor characters
I merged the minor characters here. The pictures are kinda out of alignmnent, so if anything looks off go and fix it. Thunderbrand 04:17, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
 * Also, maybe Prince Tricky or Gen. Scales could be put here? But they aren't really minor, and this article is more of a repository for characters that aren't featured anymore. Thunderbrand 04:27, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

I've merged everyone but the Star Fox team, Andross, and Wolf here, per WP:FICT. It still needs a ton of cleaning up and linting for POV and speculation, but I'm not sure I'm the man for that particular task. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 00:06, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Miyu & Fay
Their "surnames" are what they were called in the BETA version.

It's better than Spaniel or Lynx, which appear to be the opinion of one person, fanon at best.

STOP CHANGING THE SURNAMES OF THE STAR FOX 2 PILOTS TO FANON.

ROB
I think ROB/NUS 64 deserves his own article. I mean, he's a major Starfox member, right? If General Pepper of all people can get his own article, surely ROB can. Agreed? RememberMe? 00:47, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * He did have his own article, but was merged here (see ). Personally I do not care either way. Thunderbrand 16:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * The problem with that is that ROB has never really done anything in the series, whereas Pepper got turned into a boss in Assault and has posters of himself all over Corneria. Hell, even Andrew's done more in the series than ROB has. Hrimfaxi 06:24, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe he can get his own article once Starfox DS comes out and he's a multiplayer character. Anyone agree on that? RememberMe? 14:03, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I can agree to that. Thunderbrand 15:29, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Wolf
That guy he was on the super smash bros melee as Fox's rival may be he can get an articl Mr.Willison 9:07 7 june 2006
 * Well, he does have his own article. See Wolf O'Donnell. Thunderbrand 15:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

My bad because I did not see him in the List of characters in the Star Fox series.Next time I look.Mr.Willison

Sabre and Kyte
From the cancelled Dinosaur Planet although Sabre never official appeared in a Starfox game he appeared in Dinosaur Planet the original version of Starfox Adventures and Kyte appeared as a baged cloudrunner on General Scales ship in Starfox Adventures as well as being a helper in Dinosaur Planet, I think they should be mentioned in here some how because they are sorta Starfox characters I won't act until some one respons ~Guess who I am 9:23pm Saturday 26 August 2006
 * I'm not sure. The game at the time had no affiliation to the Star Fox franchise. Thunderbrand 12:06, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably not. Sabre was not part of Star Fox at all, and Kyte didn't play a big roll at all in the game. If we put him in this article, then we might as well put in entries for the Shopkeeper, the engineer at Cloudrunner Fortress, Tricky's father, etc. The whole thing would be a mess.  Rob ert  14:31, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There are spots for non canon NP comic characters and I figured they could go under a sub heading not quite Starfox character ~Guess who i am Sunday 27th August 5:02pm 2006
 * Still, this page is already 33 KB long (that's not good for some browsers). We'd be better off not inserting any more minor characters, especially since we now have to make & expand spots for the major characters in Command.  Rob ert  14:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Leon, Pigma, Panther and ROB
I think Leon, Pigma, Panther and ROB easily have enough stuff to get their own page (maybe not ROB) Guess who i am 04:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)Guess who i am 2:34PM Friday September 1st 2006
 * I have to disagree with you. Those sections aren't that big. Thunderbrand 14:24, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thunderbrad, I he's right. Plus James should have his own too User:NFAN3
 * The only one that I could see right now would be James. Thunderbrand 23:58, 3 September 2006 (UTC)Maybe......
 * I seriously don't think they need to have their own articles. Seperating them would pretty much be asking for them to be AfD'd by the extreme anti-cruft users. They're just not that substantial enough.  Rob ert  02:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

As the extreme anti-cruft user in residence I'd probably just merge it back anyway. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Or that. I'd have done the same thing.  Rob ert  02:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Caiman
Is the Caiman section really all that necessary? Caiman only ever appeared in one level of one game, so I don't think he needs his own section in this article. PlatformerMastah 01:32, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. When Caiman had his own page, I nominated it for deletion, but it failed and since was added here. Thunderbrand 01:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Caiman is essentially a minor in-joke of the fandom, since he's one of the very few NPCs in Star Fox 64 to be named.

Title of this article
I think this article should either be renamed or expanded. The title of the article is currently List of characters in the Star Fox series, which to me implies that we're listing ALL characters. We certainly could do this, but for those characters who have their own articles, we'd simply put up "Main article: X" and link to that article. If we're not going to do that, then I'd suggest renaming this article List of minor characters in the Star Fox series, to make the purpose of this article clearer. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 22:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * This page was once under that same name, and some of the characters here aren't really that minor (such as General Scales). Also I think it is generally clear that the main characters have their own page, and can be seen at the template at the bottom. Thunderbrand 22:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
 * If the aim is to make Wikipedia articles as encyclopedic as possible, I think the name and content should match as exactly as possible. If this article isn't an exhaustive list of characters in the series, we shouldn't be calling it that.  I'm in favor of listing the characters with main articles on this page and just providing a link to their main article, perhaps with a minimal description but as little duplication of content as possible.  (Also, users should not have to scroll all the way to the bottom of an article to access links to relevant content.) &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 23:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Bosses
I think we need to address what bosses should be on the page. Recently, an anon IP added some not-so-notable bosses from Command. We should stick with the final bosses/villians from each game, but I don't think we need every boss. Comments? Thunderbrand 02:37, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well since the majority of the pilots themselves bar Granga & Spyborg/HVC don't have names, it could be hard...but certain Bosses like Baccoon & Goras have a decent history behind them, so they're at least worthy of note. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.158.47.68 (talk • contribs)

James in Command?
The current information for James states that during the events of "Dash Makes a Choice", Fox acknowledges his presence, while others present act as if they can't see him. I've played this mission three times, and from what I can tell, no one pays any attention to James; he's not noticed when he appears, and no one (except ROB) speaks to him during his battle sequences, making it seem as if his appearance is purely fanservice. So this looks like inaccurate information on my end; can anyone confirm it, or am I just doing something wrong? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.43.0.202 (talk • contribs)
 * It just looks like wrong info, as you said. Thunderbrand 04:14, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Should the Star Fox members have their own articles?
This seems to be a bit of an issue. Should all of the characters (except for Fox) be listed here, or should they keep their own articles?

I've been doing some big edits to this article, and I would like to know what to do here. I personally believe they should have their own articles. I think the unnecessary ones, such as General Pepper, were already taken care of.

What do you think? PlatformerMastah 02:51, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Why should they have their own articles? Is there some independent third-party commentary to put in their articles, or are they going to be just plot recap/observation of the games? If there's enough in the way of reliable sources to write an article that isn't based entirely on the observation of the games themselves, they should stand alone. Otherwise, they should be condensed and merged. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:57, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I made a cleanup track for collections of fictional articles; it may be useful here.


 * 1) Reorder character articles to a real-world order, instead of a fictional-world order. This means that, for example, the historical Star Fox team mentioned in SF64 would be mentioned AFTER any mention of SF and SF2.
 * 2) Drastically reduce plot summaries. This is a hard-core reduction; no character needs a plot summary longer than the plot summaries in Solid Snake, and most characters don't even need that. (If someone wants to suggest a more-relevant good article, be my guest.)
 * 3) Merge all characters into the list. Anyone who has only been in one game should probably just be merged into the article for that game.
 * 4) Work on finding referenced out-of-universe info for characters in the list.
 * 5) Once a character has sufficient referenced out-of-universe info to justify a standalone article (which is half or less plot summary/backstory/other in-universe detail), split that character out of the list.

This proposal intentionally disregards any considerations of how important a character is. If a character is important in the real world, there will certainly be verifiable out-of-universe information on that character.

It's not exactly policy, but it's a good reflection of what WP:FICT suggests. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:02, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I was thinking leaving Fox his own page and merging the rest. I was surprised to notice Falco Lombardi's small page. W/O trivia, its barely above stub. Thunderbrand 03:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Or maybe rename the page to List of recurring Star Fox characters (a la List of recurring Metal Gear characters) and follow that page's style. Thunderbrand 04:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess we can merge the Star Fox members here. What about Krystal, though? Should she keep her article? It is pretty long compared to, say, Falco's or Peppy's. PlatformerMastah 04:14, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I dunno. Probably, but it could be trimmed some. Thunderbrand 04:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I merged all but Fox's, Krystal's, Andross's articles. How is it? PlatformerMastah 21:18, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Looking good. I could probably do Fox, Andross, and Krystal, probably later tonight. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:21, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, Krystal can be merged, I suppose, but Andross and Fox probably should have their own articles. They just need to be cleaned up and updated quite a bit. PlatformerMastah 21:29, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Why should Andross and Fox have their own articles? Fox's article is pretty much "He appears in these games, here's some plot summary of those games", and Andross is likewise, with the addition of a waaaaay-too-detailed description of each of his forms. There's no third-party commentary in reliable sources; it's all sourced to "Well, I played the video game, and here's what happened." - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I suppose you're right, but I believe at least Fox's should stay, as Fox is the signature character of the series; I can get to work on some major revamping of his article as well. I'll also begin to merge Andross and Krystal here. PlatformerMastah 21:45, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There's just nothing you can say about Fox that isn't sourced directly to observation of the games, though. He may be the protagonist, but there's not much more to say about him than Falco or Oikonny. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:50, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's looking pretty good so far. Thunderbrand 22:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * If you mean Fox's article, is there a word in it that isn't sourced to direct observation of the games themselves? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:01, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I meant that the page looks good after merging the other characters, although we should still reduce the image count with the added characters. Thunderbrand 23:04, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Which of the main characters should and shouldn't have their own pictures? I say we can do without maybe the images of ROB and James. Also, I merged the Krystal article (even though it says it was merged by an anonymous user; that was me, I just didn't know I was logged out). You would be amazed how much useless information there was in that article. PlatformerMastah 02:00, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I have a problem with merging Krystal into this article: Krystal's article contained a LOT of historical information about her evolution from before she was brought into the Star Fox universe. All of that information was lost when she was merged with this article.  The same may be true of other characters, too.  Don't you guys think we might be going a little too far to merge everyone's articles into this one?  (I guess I disagree that all the deleted content in Krystal's article was useless.) &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 05:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I can add some of the Dinosaur Planet information back, but for the most part, the article just contained plot summaries that weren't necessary by any means. PlatformerMastah 05:40, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I know it's a hard pill to swallow, since you worked on that page a lot, but I have nothing to counter what AMIB has said earlier. Thunderbrand 14:09, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm a little annoyed nobody made a declaration on the individual pages before going ahead with the merge. But anyway, since I was watching the Krystal page, and that page was a lot bigger, I suppose it should have remained, and a link to that page should exist as a "main article" link on the list of characters page. Also, I dispute the exact wording of: "where she finds and joins the Star Wolf team to spite Fox." After playing through the game for all 9 endings, I don't think she joined Star Wolf explicity to spite Fox; yes, she acts coldly to Fox throughout much of the game, but it seems that she only sided with Star Wolf for the sake of fighting the Anglar invasion and not for the purpose of showing Fox up. It also doesn't mention that she was in a relationship with Panther, although it is mentioned in Panther's section. -- VederJuda 15:32, 12 September 2006 (UTC) (UTC)

To Thunderbrand: I know I asked on that article how much of it was fan-contributed content, and you replied to that saying you didn't think much of it was. So why, then, is it okay to suddenly consider it useless info? &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 17:34, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, looking at the Krystal article again, I can see why most of the article could be considered "useless" - the plot summaries from each of the games there, as well as of her abilities, were probably more appropriate for the articles on the individual games rather than her character. Still, I'd like to state that I think more care should be taken when distilling large articles into short excerpts for lists such as this one - Krystal's Dinosaur Planet info should be included for historical accuracy, as well as a line or two about her telepathic/empathic abilities (which are mentioned but underplayed in the games). &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 17:44, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, what is there right now is by no means final. There is still some tinkering to do. Thunderbrand 17:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yep, and I'm tinkering with it. :) &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 18:07, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wouldn't all of the info about the development of Dinosaur Planet belong in the SFA article, instead? Why are we splitting it up among several articles? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:48, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it's legitimate to discuss Krystal's original design in a brief statement, and explain how her role changed in Adventures, as part of her character profile. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 22:04, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Images
The to-do list for this article says there needs to be a removal of several images that clutter the page. Can I get an example of unnecessary images listed here? PlatformerMastah 06:47, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I dunno about that too. We can probably remove Katt's old image. It was cluttered a while ago but to me seems OK. Thunderbrand 14:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * When I added that bit to the to-do list, the page was cluttered. Someone seems to have sorted some of that out though. I still think we can lose that image of Bill, SF64 Katt and that Dash guy. Possibly the image of this Fara Phoenix person can go as well. -- Steel 14:35, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I just checked, it's gone from 18 images to 15 since I added that bit to the to-do list. I don't normally harp on about fair use but 15 is still far too many. -- Steel 15:09, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Oops!
I realized that according to a certain rule, the article is currently written in an incorrect form. This is entirely my fault. I'll get on to fixing it right away. PlatformerMastah 22:01, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I rewrote each section a bit, in which it comes across as more fictional than before. How did it turn out? PlatformerMastah 23:05, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks good so far, IMO. Thunderbrand 23:08, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Panther Caroso/Caruso
There's definitely quite the debate going on between at least one anonymous editor and several named editors (including myself) on what Panther's proper surname is. The anonymous editor insists that his surname is Caroso, spelled with an O, on the basis that that's what it was in Assault (everything official related to it). Others believe that the name has been changed since Assault to "Caruso" (with a U), because that's how it's listed in his pilot profile in Command (though the name doesn't appear anywhere else in the game or in the manual).

So, which should it be? We don't have proof that it's officially changed to "Caruso", but we ALSO do not have any proof (acknowledgement from Nintendo or such) that it was misspelled in the game. How should this be handled?

References for Caroso:
 * Star Fox: Assault
 * Promotional materials
 * Official Website
 * Instruction manual
 * Official Player's Guide from Nintendo Power
 * Voice acting ("I am Panther Caroso," stated by himself)
 * End Credits

References for Caruso:
 * Star Fox Command
 * Pilot profile in the gallery

Generally speaking, the most recent official reference (in this case, the gallery in Command) is usually considered canon. But I do acknowledge the possibility that it's a typo - the game is known to contain other errors (such as Fox saying one of ROB's lines and Pigma saying one of Falco's). &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 23:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Although I haven't played either game, Caroso gets more Google hits, so I'd go with that. -- Steel 23:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I would actually leave it as "Caruso" for now until there is something else verifiable (such as the name on Nintendo's page for SFC, which as of now does not list his name). Thunderbrand 23:54, 13 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Response to "KieferSkunk":
 * I am the so called "one anonymous editor" who kept changing it to Caroso. I was the only unnamed editor involved in the conflict. I believe it is simply absurd to naturally assume only from one possibly incorrect source that a change in Panther's last name would consist of only one letter. I have decided to remain anonymous.
 * There is also something else I'd like to point out to you; on the Star Fox Command official website, I have spotted two other errors, Falco's Sky Claw and Krystal's Cloud Runner have their ship stats mixed up. :Then, if you look at Krystal's wallpaper, her Cloud Runner ship is obviously flying backwards (the exshaust is coming out of the front!) See what I mean? This game has typo written all over it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.116.70 (talk • contribs)
 * I see your point, anony, but until Nintendo acknowledges and corrects the typo in Panther's name, we don't have any proof that it IS a typo. All we have to go on is a possibly-incorrect assumption.  I realize there are other mistakes in the game as well, but this is the sort of name change that can be legitimate &mdash; it's not a big stretch to think that they intentionally changed it to Caruso from Caroso.  I'd be much more likely to pass it off as a typo if his name appeared as "Carsoo" or "Carsuo", or something like that, but Caruso and Caroso are both legitimate names.
 * I believe we should continue to use "Caruso" as the official canon and make a note of the discrepancy between the games (as I did before) - until proven otherwise, the pilot gallery is the official source for Panther's name. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 19:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

To KieferSkunk from "Anony": NO, OBVIOUSLY YOU DON'T GET THE POINT. There is much more evidence pointing towards "Caroso" being correct, and you've even been aware of that for some time yourself. It has only been spelled once anywhere as "Caruso," and in that game we've both spotted several other errors. Now, you must understand, I'm not the kind of person that thinks that they're always correct no matter what, but as of this point in time, the debate is totally in my favor. However, if this so called "change" in his name is official, I will be more than happy to admit I was wrong. If "Caruso" is ever confirmed to be an official name change, only then should that be displayed in this article. Notice I have now compromised by putting "Caruso?" in parentheses next to "Caroso." Please reply ASAP. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.116.70 (talk • contribs)
 * Anony: I'm going with the support from the sysop (Thunderbrand). The assertion that I made earlier, and he appears to have supported, is that the game IS the official source for Panther's current name.  This is in light of the fact that there is no other official source (neither Q-Games nor any Nintendo publication) that shows his name any differently FOR THIS GAME.  In general, unless it's REALLY obvious that it's a typo, the most RECENT incarnation of a character's name WITHIN THE GAME is considered canon, regardless of how many sources there are for a different name in a PREVIOUS game.
 * I honestly don't know how much clearer I can make this. If a WP sysop wants to step in and set the official policy (because it is admittedly somewhat unclear in this case), that'd be great.
 * One more thing, Anony: I'm doing my best to be civil to you in this debate - you could at least afford me the same favor. Thanks. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 00:19, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There's a sysop here who agrees with "anony". -- Steel 00:22, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Steel: Okay, but what is the official policy for handling such things? I think we're making a rather bold assumption that "Caruso" is a typo in the game.  There's no proof either way what the correct name is, considering there's no other official place either in or outside of the game where Panther's surname appears in relation to Command.  Everything official that has Panther's "Caroso" surname in it is related to Assault, so we have nothing to go on that says his name wasn't intentionally changed for Command. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 00:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I haven't played Assault, and only got Command today, so correct me if I'm wrong on this. As I see it, we're arguing over whether Assault or Command uses the correct name, and which one uses the typo, right? Why are we favouring the second game's usage (Command's) over the usage in Assault, which has been out for ages? Especially as Assault's Caroso gets more Google hits. -- Steel 00:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course Assault's "Caroso" is going to get more Google hits. That game has been out for a lot longer than Command. :P  Number of Google hits is not a justification for calling something official - how many of those Google hits go to official material?  That argument is kinda like saying "Because the name 'Lylat Wars' gets more Google hits than 'Star Fox', the name of the series is officially 'Lylat Wars'."  (As a hypothetical example - I'm not saying that search actually comes up that way.)
 * In MANY other cases, when a newer game (or movie, or book, or whatever) has come out that's changed a small detail, the new detail has been consistently considered the new canon UNLESS it has been officially refuted, or it's REALLY OBVIOUS that it was a mistake. Again, if Panther's surname was spelled "Carsoo" (transposition of S and O) or "Carsuo", or they'd failed to capitalize it or something like that, I would have no problem thinking it was just a typo.  But as I pointed out earlier, "Caruso" is a legitimate name, and there's nothing to say either way whether it is actually correct or not.  Therefore, the default action is usually to consider the new version canon, until something official comes along to prove otherwise. (At least, this is how I've seen it done virtually everywhere else.) &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 00:47, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello. I'm an admin (as if that matters), and entirely unconcerned about this. How about we name the section "Panther", and then simply refer to the conflict between different sources on his last name? It's not exactly an important detail about a relatively unimportant character. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * If you're comfortable with the fact that Panther will be the only character on the page who has a last name but is not listed as such. (Amanda and Andross are the only major characters with proper names whose last names have never been stated at all.) &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 00:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Entirely comfortable. Their last names are rather inane trivia, in most cases. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Please let me make it clear that we will not be worrying about what is and what is not canon, nor is it particularly important unless you can find reliable sources that discuss the subject of Star Fox canon. We should refer to all versions, and highlight all conflicts when they exist, offering greater emphasis to the more-common, not "most canon" choice. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:51, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

To KieferSkunk from Anony: I have a question for you; let's just say for example that you are Panther Caroso at the time of Assault. You decide to change your last name. Would you simply change it from Caroso to Caruso? This does not make sense to me, and that is why I would identify this as a typo if it only appeared once anywhere. Basically, why would a change in his name be so minimal as to be one letter? I truly and fully understand your side of the debate, but now I simply want you to elucidate on your opinion of this particular statement. Please respond.
 * Panther does not make decisions. He does not exist. I strongly suggest that you bear this trongly in mind. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:37, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

From Anony to A Man In Black: (Sarcastically) ''Reeeeally? Panther Doesn't exist? I had no idea.'' Hey pal, try using your imagination once in a while, or at least don't answer questions too complicated for your own intellect. Now, can I get a real response from anyone?
 * Please dispense with both the sarcasm and the insults, directed towards myself or anyone else, as they will not be tolerated. This isn't usenet or a fan forum, and we don't put up with it here.
 * That said, you got a real response. Both versions are reflected in the article. The matter is closed, unless you have some salient point. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

From Anony: Well, please excuse me, but the solid fact is that you did not answer my question and you were the sarcastic one to begin with. My apologies, but please answer my question.
 * I meant my comment in earnest. Authors may do things that are illogical from the POV of the characters, because they are not the characters. Additionally, a simple retcon (especially on such an inane detail) may pass without explanation or comment. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

From Anony: I see what you mean, but still haven't answered my question. PS: I'm being as polite as humanly possible, and I don't see what you don't understand about my question. Read it again if you need to.
 * You mean, "Basically, why would a change in his name be so minimal as to be one letter?"
 * I can think of several reasons. To make the joke less obvious. To make it look more like a real name. Caruso has a smoother sound. Caruso sounds more Spanish. It's a reference to something.
 * Why does it matter? The name is indeed different in Command, and the article should reflect this. It currently does, offering no greater weight to any version. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:34, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

From Anony: Thank you very, very much for answering my question.
 * In response to your question to me earlier, Anony, you're discussing the difference between a subjective decision on the part of a fictional character, and an objective observation about what happened between two games. I think your biggest problem in all of this is that you're trying to assign a reason as to WHY the new name is incorrect, and I think you're stretching quite a bit to say "Panther wouldn't have done that if he were real".  The fact is, nobody here knows what the developers were thinking.  Nobody knows why the name was changed.  In the absence of any official explanation, all we can do is accept the new name change as official, regardless of how stupid it might seem to some.  It's not obvious that it was a typo, so I think we'd be incorrect to assume it as such. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 17:09, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * From Anony: Something else has come to my attention, in the Japanese versions of both Assault and Command, his surname is actually Caluroso. Could this possibly be more evidence leading to the possibility of the "U" being a typo since this version ends in an "oso"?
 * Unlikely - all it really says is that the Japanese name is different than the English names. That's very common in translation. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 18:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
 * From Anony: Yes, but if it changed in the English version, wouldn't it change in Japanese?
 * Not necessarily. Again, we don't know what the developers are thinking or doing.  Don't try to make assumptions about their practices. (How much longer are we going to beat this dead horse?) &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 19:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

BTW, I'd just like to make one more statement on this topic (I'm getting kinda tired of arguing about it). I am a software tester by trade, and I've worked on several games projects. If I were a tester on the English Star Fox Command project, I would have very likely found this discrepancy and pointed it out to the developers/writers. I agree that it is a discrepancy between two games. But what we would have done about this discrepancy doesn't change the fact that the discrepancy exists and has no particular explanation. For it to be an actual bug, we must be able to prove that the discrepancy was not supposed to be there. Obvious things like characters saying each other's lines are one thing - those are really obvious bugs. A small, arguably legitimate name change from one game to another is not. If there was more than one place in the game where Panther's surname appeared, and it was different in each case (one says Caroso and the other says Caruso), then we'd have plenty of grounds for declaring "Caruso" a typo, given the spelling in Assault. We just don't have that here, though. That's the point I've been trying to make this whole time. Regardless of how absurd you might think it is that they'd choose to change just one letter in a name (an opinion I do not share, by the way - I think it's a perfectly understandable change), until we have some proof that they either did or did not mean to make that change, all we can do is note that the change exists, and we should not try to pass a value judgement on whether it's correct or not. (This, btw, is part of what NPOV means.) &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 19:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * From Anony: I apologize if I have offended you in any way,(it appears I indeed have) but it seems that we are too different from each other to discuss a minor problem on a website. You simply don't understand that I also am trying my best to accept all possibilities as to what the true nature of this new spelling is. I'm not currently sure if I will appear on this talk page again, but don't count on it. Farewell.
 * Eh, the argument itself doesn't offend me, though I did have a bit of a problem with your attitude. But that's not really all that important.  Wikipedia is meant to be an online encyclopedia, and encyclopediae don't usually get into personal, subjective assumptions about "what's right and what's wrong".  They're meant to present facts, and while WP is admittedly highly variable in that, we can all do our part to improve its overall quality by keeping things (like Panther's name) factual.  And the unequivocal fact of this particular debate is that Panther's name is shown differently between the two games.  Nobody knows why, so there's no point in trying to answer the "why" question right now. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 23:00, 15 September 2006 (UTC)