Talk:List of colleges and universities in Massachusetts

Holy Cross?
Is the Holy Cross Greek Orthodox Seminary in Brookline a distinct institution from Hellenic College? If so, it may be appropriate to list it separately. Chonak (talk) 03:49, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That's a good question. It's hard to tell. They share a website for the most part, it seems, but I'm not sure if they're technically separate entities. Any ideas on how we might find out? If they're a single institution, should it be renamed to Hellenic College and Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology? Is that title too long? If they're separate institutions (I'm not sure what they mean by "affiliated") then I agree the concept of "one entry per institution" would require two entries here, in the MetroBoston list and in the MetroBoston template. --Aepoutre (talk) 16:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * They appear to be the same institution. I have no comment at this time on the most appropriate title for the institution in this listing or its article.  --ElKevbo (talk) 16:34, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Haha, ElKevbo, you sound like a politician avoiding a tricky question from the press, haha. Yeah, they say HC/HC when they abbreviate, but I don't know if Hellenic College and Holy Cross would work or not. --Aepoutre (talk) 17:05, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I simply haven't looked into it and don't know anything about it. We need to stick to the most common name but I don't have any idea what that is for this institution.  --ElKevbo (talk) 17:28, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, neither do I. Perhaps Chonak knows. It just seems they use the full Hellenic College and Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology or HC/HC, the second of which makes me wonder about Hellenic College and Holy Cross. Are there any restrictions on name length? If that last one is too colloquial and the first one is too long, perhaps Hellenic College and Holy Cross Theological School might make sense. Since they make it seem like they're separate entities, people who go there may be used to referring to them separately. However, Northeastern Seminary, for example, is supposedly part of Roberts Wesleyan College and no one has bothered to create a separate article for that one despite its obviously separate name. I wonder how many people would care no matter what we did. Even if it had to be moved, it'd just end up as a redirect. Perhaps I'll request comment at Wikiproject Universities. --Aepoutre (talk) 17:55, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I've been under the assumption that they are legally separate, but I don't have a basis for that. It's not unusual for institutions to share some facilities but be legally distinct.  For example, Wentworth Institute was at one point two  colleges: a two-year associate-level college (Wentworth Institute of Technology), and a two-year program building on that (Wentworth College of Technology) and leading to the bachelor's degree.   They eventually merged.  Were Gordon College and Gordon-Conwell always separate?  Anyway, ElKevbo's link to ed.gov is enough clarification for me.  I recommend documenting the School of Theology in the Hellenic College article and creating a redirect on the name Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology (that Jack built).  --- By the way, in the Massachusetts context, the name "Holy Cross" by itself usually refers to the College of the Holy Cross in Worcester.   Chonak (talk) 04:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * No, Gordon and Gordon-Conwell are a different story. Gordon was mostly a bible/divinity school for a long time but started more of an undergrad/collegiate division that ended up staying more true to the name because the divinity school split off and joined with a similar institution that split off from Temple University. Essentially both Gordon and Temple lost their upper-division theological schools to Gordon-Conwell (Gordon from GC and Conwell from Temple). Technically, and according to Gordon's website, they're completely separate now, but you see a lot of advertising for GC and no other similar institution in BTI newsletters, probably because of Gordon-Conwell's denied-but-close relationship with GC (speculation).


 * I know of places like Ambrose University College that were once Nazarene University College and Alliance University College, known as "NUC-AUC" until they merged to become Ambrose. The problem here is that places like the Wentworth schools were still called "Wentworth" and might have been different degree-granting schools but one organization, while NUC-AUC was basically AUC piggybacking on the NUC campus as a separate school affiliated with the C&MA Church instead of the Nazarene Church (now that they've merged, though, it's more C&MA than Nazarene because the former is a bigger and more powerful denomination). You say WIT and WCT were separate, but they sound the same, NUC-AUC was totally separate, and HC/HC is even more confusing than the other two. Now someone says that Ambrose is Ambrose University College and Seminary, but there's really no need for a separate article since they're really the same thing, sort of like Roberts Wesleyan College and Northeastern Seminary I mentioned before. I think one article would probably do, even if it retains the "Hellenic College" name and just refers to a bolded Holy Cross... in the lead section. A redirect sounds good, and we might want some entries on disambiguation pages with the name "Holy Cross". It's at least a good fix for now, and we can change it when we find out more. Haha, yes I know we're usually referring to the Jesuit college in Worcester but I honestly do appreciate the heads-up :). --Aepoutre (talk) 17:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

One merger, some additions
Art Institute of Boston is now part of Lesley University.

The NEASC web site lists a few schools not on this list: Longy School of Music, Southern New England School of Law, and MGH Institute of Health Professions. Chonak (talk) 19:53, 28 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Wow, thanks for catching that about the AIB. I totally missed that somehow.... do you know anything about Longy et al.? I think I've heard about Longy but not the others. Thanks for that, too! Keep up that good work. --Aepoutre (talk) 21:45, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Southern NE School of Law is not far from the U Mass Dartmouth campus. At one point, some state rep proposed buying it and making it U Mass School of Law.   MGH is connected with Mass General Hospital: I assume it's a school of nursing, medical technology, etc.  Chonak (talk) 22:43, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

defunct institutions?
I notice that there is a Category for "Defunct universities and colleges in Massachusetts". Can we add a link to that page? I think that would be better than including defunct institutions here (e.g., Bradford). Chonak (talk) 23:06, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it's a category, but that might work. Go for it. Funny, I just added Radcliffe to the Boston list, haha. --Aepoutre (talk) 00:49, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Not stable enough yet to be a featured list
The classifications of institutions are not stable yet; just the other day I changed Harvard from "Masters college" (plainly wrong, IMHO) to "Research university" and corrected a few other entries. I recommend a close review of the details of the page to ensure its quality. Chonak (talk) 02:53, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. There are some patent issues with this. One egregious one seems to be WP:OR -- things like "Although there are many schools currently operating, 66 other schools have closed or merged with other schools in the state." There's no source for this; that information is garnered from a poorly compiled list of closed schools. I call it poorly compiled because there are clearly institutions here that have neither "closed" nor "merged" but simply changed their names: Cambridge Junior College is almost certainly Cambridge College, Chamberlayne Junior College is Mount Ida College, Jackson College for Women has always been part of Tufts University, &c. This needs some major re-working and isn't ready for Featured status. I'm surprised the nominator bypassed Good and A entirely and shot for Featured at all. I'll get working on some cleanup, but I won't have time until tomorrow at the earliest. --Aepoutre (talk) 04:10, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Enrollment data
Enrollment figures on some of the colleges' websites (and in some of their WP articles) does not agree with data available at the US Dept of Education "College Navigator" site. In some cases, college figures are including students in non-credit courses; in some, they may be counting students at campuses located outside Massachusetts. For lack of a consistent standard, I propose that this article present data from College Navigator whenever it is available, unless there is some other similar source of data -- perhaps the College Board? Chonak (talk) 19:53, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Many of us try to stick with NACUBO data to ensure that we're consistent across articles but it's been tricky with so many endowments tanking and thus making the news much more often and quicker than normal. Usually, the difference between the current value and the most recent NACUBO report is neglible but that isn't true right now for many (most?) institutions so we're trading comparability for accuracy in many cases.  --ElKevbo (talk) 21:47, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If that's available to the public on-line, would you post a link?  Thanks.  Chonak (talk) 22:28, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * To ElKevbo: Does NACUBO provide enrolment data, as well? Chonak was asking about enrolment data, but it sounds like you speak of endowment numbers. To Chonak: I agree, Chonak; such numbers are often "squishy". Then again, that's oftentimes "the game" thanks to USNews & World Report.... I think that using the http://nces.ed.gov/globallocator site is probably our best bet because it's an ed.gov site. We could also generate some further discussion at WP:UNI and see if there should be a default data source required by WP:UNIGUIDE. Thoughts? --Arverniking (talk) 22:54, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah hell - you're right. I misread "enrollment" as "endowment" (several times, apparently).  How embarrassing!
 * Yeah, stick with IPEDS for enrollment data, please. Public release of IPEDS data lags a few cycles behind but it's consistent, reliable, and accessible to everyone.  --ElKevbo (talk) 04:00, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's okay, Kevbo; we forgive you. :-P --Arverniking (talk) 21:49, 19 April 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, I've updated the stats per ed.gov data. Chonak (talk) 07:19, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Errors in classification
Maybe it's just me, but most of these "type" classifications seem bogus. Dean is listed as "baccalaureate" even though most of its students earn an associate's degree. Lasell is listed as a "master's college" even though it only offers two master's degrees. Suffolk is listed as a "special-focus institution". None of these sound right to me. The original list didn't include "type", so it must be the work of the editor who made the sortable list. The list uses ref with a U.S. Government site as a source, and there's a column to the far right called "ref" that looks like it's just a link to each school's website. So, while my first instinct was that none of it "sounds right", I also checked the Government website and some institutional sites and confirmed IMHO that the information here doesn't seem to match up properly. And I certainly don't think the column to the far right with links to institutional websites qualifies as a "ref" column. Feel free to weigh in, fellow editors. I'd like to hear others' thoughts. King of the Arverni (talk) 15:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this list does look fishy. If we're going to go with classifications, we should stick with Carnegie (with proper references for each instance).  And you're right about the "ref" column being unnecessary and a list of (inappropriate, IMHO) external links in disguise.  --ElKevbo (talk) 15:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, Carnegie seems to make the most sense to me, too. I won't be able to do any of this until tomorrow at the earliest, but I'll keep it in the back of my mind. That said, if anyone else has some time to kill then that editor is welcome to it. King of the Arverni (talk) 20:16, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The "ref" columns are removed. Not sure how we usually express the Carnegie classifications on Wikipedia ("Bal/SGC" vs. "Balanced Arts & Sciences and Professions with Some Graduate Coexistence" &c.). Any good examples of precedent-setting uses? King of the Arverni (talk) 03:07, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Just stick with the Basic Classification; it's the most broad and familiar of the classifications. --ElKevbo (talk) 05:09, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Excellent. It was stupid of me even to ask. Thanks! King of the Arverni (talk) 05:16, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The foundation's 2005 move to introduce a multiplicity of classifications obviously introduced a significant amount of complexity so your question was not stupid at all. --ElKevbo (talk) 05:20, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It should be all set with Carnegie control and classification information now. King of the Arverni (talk) 21:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The opening paragraph states that Massachusetts has four research universities. Surely the right number is much higher.--108.36.159.94 (talk) 12:51, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Southern New England School of Law
Should SNESL be moved to the "closed institutions" list or retained as University of Massachusetts School of Law? My understanding is that it is part of University of Massachusetts Dartmouth. --Chonak (talk) 02:10, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Clark University: any religious affiliation?
The opening text to this article says that Clark is a Jewish institution. Can anyone confirm that? --Bistropha (talk) 05:48, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I can't seem to find anything right now at a cursory glance, but when my mother went there in the 1970s and 80s, they observed Jewish holidays instead of Christian ones. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 04:28, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

Proposed merge with List of defunct colleges and universities in Massachusetts
It's a duplicate of the article and does not really belong separate. Kevin Rutherford (talk) 07:09, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

No one has said anything in three months, so I am going to close this as an uncontroversial move.

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