Talk:List of contemporary ethnic groups/Archive 3

Adding Ethnoreligious group
Doremon764 (talk) 21:33, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Population column removed?
I see the whole population column was removed because "the numbers continually fluctuate and membership can be difficult to define". But to me if one ethnic group has over a billion members and another has less than a million, that seems like vitally important information! I enjoyed coming to this page and sorting by that column, which I can't do at all now.

Can we talk about having a column like this? —Keenan Pepper 19:46, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I understand your frustration. When I saw that the column had been removed, I was dismayed. (Not long ago, I had spent a bit of time making it properly sortable.) But after I thought about it a bit, I started to agree with 's decision. The main problem is that for many (most?) so-called ethnic groups it's difficult to say who is or isn't a member. For example: Most current inhabitants of the Americas (about a billion people) can't really be assigned to one of the groups listed on this page, because they have ancestors from many different groups and places. What's the "ethnicity" of a Brazilian whose ancestors a dozen generations ago lived in today's Nigeria, Portugal, Brazil and other countries? We might find some numbers for some groups, but in most cases, we probably won't, or sources will contradict each other, and hundreds of millions of people will be assigned to multiple groups or to none, etc. Even with a lot of work, we're unlikely to be able to fill the column with reliable data. In a case like this, it's better to provide no data than data that looks precise but is unreliable, incomplete, and partly wrong. (Frankly, I'm not even sure this page should exist at all, because it will always be WP:OR to some extent. But that's a different issue.) — Chrisahn (talk) 17:24, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Is there a way we can include some data that intentionally looks imprecise? Maybe a power-of-ten thing, or one significant figure, or S M L XL buckets? Just spitballing. We had all those source citations for the numbers, so it's not like they were just pulled from thin air... —Keenan Pepper 18:28, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Edit war
You are currently engaged in an edit war. It looks like it is about the accuracy of information one or both users have added. Please discuss your differeces here. Constantly reverting each others' edits is unproductive and unacceptable, especially because you have not elaborated on why you disagree. If you continue to edit war, you both will be blocked from editing (temporarily) by an admin. Wikinights (talk) 02:55, 25 July 2021 (UTC)
 * . Sorry for the typo. Wikinights (talk) 02:56, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the edit war has not stopped. I hope that either of you will explain your reasoning here. In cases like these, administrative measures like page protection or blocking may be the only possible means to prevent a continued edit war. Per WP:3RR, reverting more than three times within 24 hours will result in you being blocked from editing. WIKINIGHTS talk 09:08, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

The definition of ethnic groups is obviously political!
As a member of a family living on the border between the Netherlands and Germany, it to me is rather obvious many details in this article do not make much sense. Just an example: The difference between the Dutch and the Germans is not a true ethnic difference. I agree there is a difference, but this is merely because of imposed structures that people on both sides of the border have to adhere to and that separate people rather forcefully, even without the use of apparent force. My Keultjes family has been divided that way on both sides of the border into Dutch and Germans, but I severely disagree that this should mean we belong to two different ethnic identities. Actually Keultjes is a variant within a group of family names that stretches farther into Belgium, Luxemburg, France, the British Isles and beyond. The scientific question one should ask oneself: Should ethnic differences be defined by imposed languages, laws and uses, clearly associated to political boundaries?Amand Keultjes (talk) 17:47, 11 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Mate I'm gonna be real with you. Almost everything in existence is political and the role of Wikipedia is to document human knowledge despite this obvious problem. By including all ethnic groups that claim themselves to be so, we are simply documenting the claims. However, you raise an important point. I propose this article should be renamed to:
 * "List of claimed contemporary ethnic groups"
 * to attempt to be more neutral. In the article instead of simply stating "ethnic group" we would instead say "claimed ethnic group".
 * Thoughts, my fellow Wikipedians? Finton the magical salmon (talk) 05:41, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

A Note
Sorry about the shitshow by me earlier, if fucked up and I just wanna say sorry. The page has now been properly moved. Finton the magical salmon (talk) 10:14, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Undid the move
I have undone the move to the title that included the word "claimed". The use of weasel words like "claimed" is likely to be highly contentious, and the move should not be done without discussion. If you wish to move it, use the WP:RM process and establish consensus to do so. -- Jayron 32 16:23, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Why the 100,000 population requirement?
Out of curiosity, why is a population of at least 100,000 a requirement for an ethnic group to be listed here even if a smaller group still verifiably exists? ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 08:25, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
 * A very good question. Utterly arbitrary, and arguably discriminatory. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:30, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

African-American homeland
Wouldn't that be the United States? I don't see anyone else having the homelands of their ancestral groups listed. The US is also where the ethnogenesis took place. 194.19.115.26 (talk) 20:14, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

RFC on population requirement
Should the requirement of a population of at least 100,000 for a contemporary ethnic group to be listed remain in place? ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 17:09, 7 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I would think any ethnic group that can be verifiably said to exist to this day would fit on a list of contemporary ethnic groups, the requirement of a population of 100,000 seems rather arbitrary to me. I feel the list would be more useful if smaller contemporary ethnic groups were able to be added as well, as it'd provide a centralized resource to find articles on ethnic groups throughout the site more easily. It'd certainly help me go through and clean up articles about ethnic groups more easily. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 17:16, 7 April 2022 (UTC)


 * In addition to being arbitrary and arguably discriminatory, such a numeric requirement is also likely to be impossible to verify through reliable sources, in a great number of cases. Census data rarely includes ethnicity (at least in a manner likely to be applicable in this context), and anything else is liable to be an estimate, not infrequently of questionable accuracy. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:52, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Austrians, Flemings, and Walloons
Hey, I noticed a bit ago you changed the page so that Austrians, Flemings, and Walloons are listed as subgroups of Germans, Dutch people, and French people respectively rather than separate groups. Do you have any reliable sources to back that up? ~Ceres of Arctic Circle System (talk) 09:38, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Appalachians
Would you happen to have any sources showing Appalachians are an ethnic group? ~Red of Arctic Circle System (talk) 07:59, 9 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Appalachians as an Urban Ethnic Group: Romanticism, Renaissance, or Revolution? on JSTOR TheCrimsonKing&#39;sCourt (talk) 04:37, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The article also shows that the conclusion that Appalachians form an ethnic group can be made from everyday observation. Appalachians have a shared ancestry of Ulster Scots immigrants, have a homeland, their own dialect of English, the Baptist church, and shared cultural elements such as the music, cuisine, dress, and folklore that don't go away when Appalachians go to other parts of the nation. In many scenarios, they are treated as an ethnic group without people being aware of it as well, with many non-Appalachians mocking the lifestyles of Appalachians, in a way that seems to represent a difference in worldview. Appalachians tend to place emphasis on a form of faux-poverty. Things like poshness, and luxury are often discarded in favor of outdoor activity, and a distinctive brand of 'low brow' entertainment. TheCrimsonKing&#39;sCourt (talk) 04:44, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The source provided seems to check out, though it seems to say there's no consensus on whether Appalachians are an ethnic group or not. Would you happen to have some more recent sources? And may I ask what your source is for Appalachians having Ulster Scots ancestry and the differences in worldview? ~Nai of Arctic Circle System (talk) 20:55, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately the topic isn't widely covered outside of day-to-day conversation, so professional articles referring to Appalachians as an ethnic group are somewhat hard to come by, but, I was able to find sources that describe the Ulster Scots ancestry of Appalachians, and the difference in worldview. TheCrimsonKing&#39;sCourt (talk) 01:56, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Marshall Digital Scholar - ASA Annual Conference: The Evolution of Appalachian Culture: Traditional values, cultural influences, and mainstream America. TheCrimsonKing&#39;sCourt (talk) 02:08, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * In the Mountains: The Scots-Irish heritage in Appalachia (lmc.edu) TheCrimsonKing&#39;sCourt (talk) 02:09, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I appreciate you following up. I've looked around for more on this subject, but like you said, it doesn't seem to be talked about much in academia. I don't think there's enough of an academic consensus on the subject to add Appalachians to the list. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 06:36, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Population column
I think this page would improve a lot if we add a column for population. I💖平沢唯 (talk) 05:26, 2 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I’m gonna do this, just checking first if there’s any reason I shouldn’t I💖平沢唯  (talk) 05:35, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I would caution strongly against that, although I will not revert it if you do it. The information is valuable on the face of it, but it will have to be sourced. Such figures are a frequent ground of debate on individual subject pages, and our figures would need to match those pages and also be sourced. The measure of counting will differ for each and there will be endless debates on how each is calculated. Comparison from one to another will be fraught with problems, and we will have people trying to assert new numbers for no reason.
 * Although I would not revert the column if you add it, I would revert any unsourced or unverifiable figures. There will be frequent lacunae in the list.
 * Those are my thoughts, anyway. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:31, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Austrians and Alsatians
Why are Alsatians seen as part of Germans and Austrians a separate group? The Alsatian identity is way more separated from Germany today that the Austrian one, for example Alsace is way more influenced by non Germanic culture (French) than Austria is. It would make more sense to do the opposite or to show both as separate. 95.10.6.110 (talk) 20:47, 17 August 2022 (UTC)


 * If you can provide a reliable source that says Alsatians aren't considered Germans (even if they are still considered Germanic) then sure. They can be moved to a separate entry. ~Red of Arctic Circle System (talk) 02:02, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Mormon
I added Mormon and it has since been removed due to lack of sources cited. I thought that its inclusion in Ethnoreligious group would be sufficient as there are reliable sources cited there and it has existed on that page for some time. But if necessary we can include the same citations as that page. Nate.thinks (talk) 06:03, 22 September 2022 (UTC)


 * This has been added back in with seemingly the most reliable and concise source I could find. There are other reliable sources that can be cited on the subject if necessary. Nate.thinks (talk) 06:18, 22 September 2022 (UTC)

Arab languages and subgroups
I've noticed recently that an editor has removed many of the languages and subgroups in the Arabs entry (see here, here, here, and here). While I understand the removal of nationalities, I don't understand the removal of various tribes. In addition, the subgroups column doesn't necessarily need to include every member of an ethnic group, though there were some subgroups added that needed to be added. I also do not understand the removal of the Arab Sign languages or the removal of Al-Sayyid Bedouin Sign Language. Among other things, number of speakers is not a factor in whether a language gets added to the page. I guess what I'm asking is how the addition of sign languages mainly spoken by Arabs and the addition of Arab tribes, among other things, is inaccurate as the edit summary suggests. ~Cherri of Arctic Circle System (talk) 15:46, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Hispanic Americans
Should Hispanic Americans be included as a single group and then add each particular group (such as Hispanic Colombian, Hispanic Mexican, Hispanic Argentinian, etc.) as subgroups of a larger Hispanic American group? Untitledjuan (talk) 20:14, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Would it be helpful to start including extinct ethnic groups on this list, since we're no longer tracking populations?
I know this would be a large change to the page, but my line of thought is that since this page no longer has a population column, since tracking numbers for many ethnicities is difficult, we have no way of saying hard and fast whether or not an ethnic group is 'contemporary' or not. With large ethnic groups, it's usually quite clear, but in other situations it isn't. The Arameans come to mind as an area where this discussion is incredibly fuzzy, and there is little consensus. About 4,500 people in Israel identify 'Aramean' as their ethnicity. However, there is little research done on whether or not this group are actually direct descendants of the historical Arameans or not. Many other situations exist. This also gets very fuzzy in regards to certain uncontacted peoples in Brazil and in New Guinea, where there is a distinct possibility that many of these groups have gone extinct since they were last encountered. We would have no way of knowing, and as such determining whether they are 'contemporary' or not. TheCrimsonKing&#39;sCourt (talk) 17:10, 22 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I think we should probably make a separate list for extinct ethnic groups. Combining the two is not particularly useful in my opinion. ~Red of Arctic Circle System (talk) 08:57, 27 March 2023 (UTC)


 * I don't think it would be at all appropriate to entitle any list as 'extinct'. Ethnicity is a social construct, not a species. And while some ethnicities have no doubt disappeared through all who identified as belonging to them dying, most such disappearances are instead due to new ethnicities being assumed or created. Just because there are are say no Visigoths any more, doesn't mean there is nobody descended from them - I suspect much of the population of western Europe has some Visigothic ancestry... AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:12, 27 April 2023 (UTC)