Talk:List of countries by incarceration rate/Archive 1

World Female Imprisonment List
Info on the study:
 * http://www.nicic.org/Library/021844
 * http://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/news_details_2006.php?news_id=99

PDF file of the study:
 * http://www.unodc.org/pdf/india/womens_corner/women_prison_list_2006.pdf --Timeshifter (talk) 05:24, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

How to create the long table
There is an explanation of how the long HTML table from the source page was quickly converted to the wiki table here. For the explanation see the example section of this page:
 * Commons:Convert tables and charts to wiki code --Timeshifter (talk) 14:38, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

In the incarceration rate column "c" stands for "circa" which means "about" or "around
Is that really necessary? What idiot doesn't know that 'circa' is used to mean about or around? This is supposed to be an encyclopedia not a guide for America's least intelligent!--Xania talk 21:33, 3 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Please see WP:CIVIL. Many people do not know what it means. Therefore please stop insulting those people who don't know what it means. There are probably many things you don't know about, so therefore you are an idiot according to your dumbass logic. :) --Timeshifter (talk) 11:35, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Templates for deletion nomination of Template:Lists of countries
Template:Lists of countries has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Cybercobra (talk) 07:09, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

List updated
I updated the list. I used this quick method:
 * Commons:Convert tables and charts to wiki code or image files#List of countries by incarceration rate.

It is too difficult and time-consuming for me to add flag icons and links for each of 216 countries. I got this far:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Timeshifter/Sandbox3

You can copy what I have done, and use your own sandbox pages to do further editing. I don't think the country links and flag icons are really necessary. Especially since the numbers in this list change at least yearly. I can quickly update the list, but not the links and flag icons. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:36, 18 November 2010 (UTC)


 * The list needs to be updated again. If you click the source link you can see that the page has moved, and if you check the current information listed on the new page by the ICPS, their information is newer than this. For example, Rwanda is now ranked at #2. The new information is at: http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poprate -- Hyathin (talk) 08:39, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the link. I updated the reference link in the article. Someone needs to update the list. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:03, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Cuba
Does anyone have numbers for Cuba? I realise many statistical organisations boycott Cuba because of sanctions but I think this is childish for wikipedia. It can't be that hard to find out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drunkenduncan (talk • contribs) 09:57, 9 May 2011 (UTC)


 * If you find an incarceration rate for Cuba, and a reference, feel free to add both to the article. Wikipedia is only as childish as you, an editor, allow it to be. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:06, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

List updated 4 November 2011
I updated the list again. See Commons:Convert tables and charts to wiki code or image files and the section titled something like "List of countries by incarceration rate". --Timeshifter (talk) 06:39, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

UK Imprisonment rate
I have encountered study after study that finds, by ratio, the UK Government imprisons by far the most men. The same studies confirm that the US is indeed second. But second to the UK. How someone managed to get post-9/11 Britain down to 87th position is a question only for amusement or to reveal a coverup.

Even the list Itself reveals the UK Government's record - just look at the number of British territories in the top 20! And yet we are supposed to believe that -while the US is number 1, fellow "War On Terror" regime Britain is Eighty Seventh. You're having a laugh, and I would suggest this page be replaced entirely with any number of studies that can give you the actual statistics.

89.101.194.102 (talk) 17:56, 8 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Links? --Timeshifter (talk) 13:42, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

russia isnt second
http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poprate i changed it now look at the data closer its 534 you idiots, thank you once again giving russia a bad image http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tD1yaE0GfQ&feature=g-all-lik&context=G2769325FAAAAAAAAGAA see this people now see it all around the world, wiki is so disgusting here some kind of anti russia cult changing data so russia always look bad, sure there are many russians in prison but its not second --Akin12255 (talk) 00:49, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks you for drawing my attention to the fact that Russia is 5th, not 2nd. These differences, which may seem arcane to some, do make a difference to sophisticated New Yorkers such as myself.

19 December 2011 update of list numbers and country order
I updated the list again. See Commons:Convert tables and charts to wiki code or image files and the section titled something like "List of countries by incarceration rate". Note that when the numbers are updated the order of the countries changes also. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:39, 19 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Was the list updated (in the source) before or after November 2011? Because if they update is after that, then it's clearly inaccurate. Here's a source saying 2900+ people were arrested in Bahrain in 2011 (Making it's 200+ per 100,000), while it's shown as 130s.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  17:47, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Criticism - alternative list
Critics say it would be better to compare prison rate to crime rate. Has anyone actually produced such a list ? (Though how do you define crime rate ? - what is a crime in one country may not be in others). -- Beardo (talk) 23:30, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

I just came here in order to ask exactly the same.91.39.85.156 (talk) 12:26, 14 April 2012 (UTC)


 * It wouldn't be a bad idea to have an additional list on the same page. Stefán Örvarr Sigmundsson (talk) 22:11, 14 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Since the "crime rate" is hard to measure, and what is defined as a "crime" differs radically from country to country, this would be a hard list to make and an even harder list to check the accuracy of. Geoffrey.landis (talk) 13:56, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Source is inaccurate/outdated
In 2011, more than 2900 people were arrested for protest-related activities according to a government independent inquiry (BICI). Bahrain's population is 1.2M (only 600k are citizens). So if you only count those arrested in 2011 (2900/1.2M*100k), it will be 241 per 100,000. The article here says it's 136! It's clearly outdated by more than a year.  Mohamed CJ  (talk)  17:42, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * You are free to update the list if you find reliable parties to cite. Stefán Örvarr Sigmundsson (talk) 21:21, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
 * You quoted the number of people arrested in Bahrain; not the number incarcarated. Unless all of those arrested are still incarcarated, it's not enough information to say that the number is out of date. Geoffrey.landis (talk) 13:56, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Virgin Islands? Guam?
It seems incorrect to list entities such as the U.S. Virgin Islands and Guam on a "list of countries", since they are not countries. Except for Puerto Rico, these are all pretty low population. These should be either folded in to the U.S., or else put into one conglomerated item of the rate in U.S. protectorates. (Well, OK, I'd accept Puerto Rico as a special case). Geoffrey.landis (talk) 13:56, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

More sources and lists
The text below is from the image description page for Image:Incarceration rates worldwide.gif (the chart to the right):

Selected incarceration rates worldwide. The stats source is the World Prison Population List (7th edition) PDF file. By Roy Walmsley. Published in 2007. International Centre for Prison Studies. School of Law, King's College London. For editions 1 through 7:. From the same source see also the World Prison Brief - Highest to Lowest Figures. Compare many nations. Select from menu: prison population total, prison population rate, percentage of pre-trial detainees / remand prisoners within the prison population, percentage of female prisoners within the prison population, percentage of foreign prisoners within the prison population and occupancy rate. See also: Human Development Report 2007/2008 - Prison population (per 100,000 people). UNDP (United Nations Development Programme), using data from the World Prison Population List. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:27, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I wonder about the reliability, and timeliness of these statistics, the ICPS does not release any annual briefs since 2007, so there is a strong chance this information is five years out of date. I strongly suspect the numbers for Rwanda are out of date. Nor do they source where this information is from. There is a strange selection of data - why do some micro states and territories appear on the list, but not some more significant stats not appear? I find this unreliable. Ottawakismet (talk) 15:20, 6 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Their statistics are continually updated. Click the links in the main list to go to the sources and dates:
 * http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poprate --Timeshifter (talk) 14:11, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

2012 October 7. List completely updated from source
See: User:Timeshifter/Sandbox28 and User:Timeshifter/Sandbox3. Please use your own sandboxes for further work.

Data for this article's list was retrieved October 7, 2012 from the source table here:
 * http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poprate

That source table was converted to table wikitext via these instructions: commons:Commons:Convert tables and charts to wiki code or image files. Redirects have been created. See Category:Country data templates and Category:Country data redirects. It is now possible to rapidly update the complete list from the source at any time, and do it with flags, and working country and territory links. I only had to do the links for one entry manually:
 * United Kingdom: 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿 England & 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 Wales

Note: "c." (circa) indicates "approximately." It should be put after the number, or numerical sorting of the rate column will not work, even with  in the column header. It is no longer necessary to put "c" in a separate column though. It is now possible to force the numerical sort order of a column by adding  to the column header. See: Help:Sorting and the section on numerical sorting problems. So a separate notes column is no longer necessary. The single reference for all the data is linked from the beginning of the article. So it does not need to be repeated after every number.

For consistency please use the same reference for all the countries and territories possible. If rates for additional countries or territories are found they can be entered in the table, and their references can be put directly after the rate numbers. This will no longer break numerical sorting of the rates column. A note above the table can specify that all the data comes from one source unless indicated otherwise by separate references in the table. There is no need to repeat the main reference over two hundred times in the table. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:23, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

China prison population numbers
I entered a user feedback, but perhaps I should restate it here with a reference. Apologies for a duplication.

I believe that a reference should be made to 6.8 million people being held in the Reform Through Labor camp system (lao gai - 劳改）. Here is one reference pointer:

http://www.wcl.american.edu/hrbrief/07/2laogai.cfm — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmgronski (talk • contribs) 15:00, 30 January 2013 (UTC)


 * The total number of all types of prisoners varies widely. See Re-education through labor and Laogai. See also:
 * http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_country.php?country=91
 * I am going to use the rate of 170 per 100,000 population given in the above link. It seems to have the most credible info. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

What about North Korea?
I don't see them on the list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.9.162.25 (talk) 21:36, 7 April 2013 (UTC)


 * North Korea is not listed in the source document online:
 * http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poprate --Timeshifter (talk) 03:06, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm fairly sure we could use another source such as this NY Times article or this from ABC.Coinmanj (talk) 03:39, 22 April 2013 (UTC)


 * It does not look like a very firm number. I don't see how it could be. It's North Korea! Probably belongs in Wikipedia articles on North Korea so it can be put in context as speculation.


 * Plus it is hard enough updating this list periodically without having to enter countries individually. I upgrade the whole list at once. See previous talk sections. I wouldn't bother to enter info for individual countries in future updates Someone else would have to do that. And they often screw up the formatting of the table when they do. I figure if my main source does not feel confident to put out data for a country, then there is no reliable data for that country. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:20, 22 April 2013 (UTC)


 * That sounds reasonable to me, updating this list does look like a complete bear. Perhaps then, simply adding a note to the bottom of the list with a link to the main Wiki article Prisons in North Korea would suffice? That would at least get the county on the page. Coinmanj (talk) 19:36, 22 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Good idea. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:20, 24 April 2013 (UTC)

2013 June 9. List completely updated from source
For info on how it was done see commons:Commons:Convert tables and charts to wiki code or image files and the section "List of countries by incarceration rate". --Timeshifter (talk) 19:19, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

San Marino
I wonder if San Marino criminals serve in Italy or if they send foreign criminals to their home countries. YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 05:39, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

North Korea... any other significant entries missing?...
N. Korea is not in the list, though this is addressed at the end. Are they any other significant countries, territories, or independent city-states or such that are not on this list, is what I am wondering...50.13.107.152 (talk) 00:51, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Canada
What is up with Canada? It is rate and ranking don't line up. It has 140 per capita yet is ranked way lower. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.246.30.147 (talk) 17:36, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

2014 June 1. Table updated completely from source
I downloaded the table on June 1, and got around today to converting it. The format of the source has changed. So I need to update the how-to page for converting the HTML table to a wikitext table: See the section titled "List of countries by incarceration rate". --Timeshifter (talk) 19:04, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Commons:Convert tables and charts to wiki code or image files.
 * The new alphabetical ordering of this table is somewhat confusing, since it doesn't list the countries according to their incarceration rates. Will the original ordering of the table be restored? Jarble (talk) 23:46, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
 * It is too difficult to maintain the table in highest to lowest order. That order can change with a single country update by any random editor. Plus one gets highest to lowest order by clicking the rate header.


 * I updated the how-to page: Commons:Convert tables and charts to wiki code or image files. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:27, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina/Republika Srpska are one country
Federation of Bosnia and Republika Srpska are for some reason listed as separate entities here, while they're in fact both part of Bosnia and Herzegovina, its just one country. This would be like listing every US state independently, it makes no sense. From the wikipedia page for Republika Srpska: "The Constitution of Republika Srpska defines it as a territorially unified, indivisible and inalienable constitutional and legal entity of Bosnia and Herzegovina".

I'd fix this myself if I knew how to consolidate the separate results into one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.75.204.110 (talk) 09:13, 11 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The source list has always included rates for some dependent territories, subnational areas, etc.. I clarified the column heading further.


 * We could expand the title of the article too, but that would make it long and unwieldy. Very few people complain about having the rates for a few dependent territories, subnational areas, etc..


 * See Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Republika Srpska. Both are on the source list. Bosnia and Herzegovina is not on the source list. I copied what the source list provided. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:15, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

Adding Population
Would you consider adding a column for population? This would provide a context for the incarceration rate and permit easier calculation of multi-country averages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Efenna (talk • contribs) 01:29, 28 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The figures are per 100,000 population. It already is in context! It's scaled this way to give exactly the information you're asking for.
 * 92.40.253.121 (talk) 06:00, 29 April 2013 (UTC)


 * Adding a population column would be very time-consuming. It would have to be done manually each time the incarceration rates were updated for the whole list. For those who want population numbers there is this: List of countries by population. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:23, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

No, the population of each country should be added, and made sortable like the others, because it adds context to the chart. "Per 100,000" is not the same. Also, land mass would be interesting, but not as much. And it isn't that time-consuming, not for the value added. "This would provide a context for the incarceration rate and permit easier calculation of multi-country averages."

Wikipedia is just controlled by people who don't care about USA human rights abuses, and who are being paid by the USA government to promote its corruption. The truth is that before the present time, incarceration for long periods of time was a very rare punishment, and that despite what we are told, it's a disguised modern form of slavery. It's really important how anyone spends a day, a month, or a year, at any time in human history. So yes, adding population and some other interesting columns and information would be a great service to humanity. And it belongs in the article, for the sake of care for human justice and the well-being of societies. This is all an out-growth of Eugenics and the Puritanical American mindset of sterilizing retarded people and criminals. People blind to that should be the ones incarcerated, and God will certainly attend to that.

Until then, this is the case I make for adding at least country population to the chart.

Well, of course, one could just meld this chart with a population chart in an Excel document or Open Office equivalent. Of course. But if it's that simple, why not have such a combination near at hand here?

Oliverhaart (talk) 12:04, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

This list is sorted in the wrong order
Instead of sorting the countries by incarceration rate, the table sorts the countries in alphebetical order. Is it possible to fix this? Jarble (talk) 04:58, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * It is too difficult to maintain the table in highest to lowest order. That order can change with a single country update by any random editor. Plus one gets highest to lowest order by clicking the rate header. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:00, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Why is the list alphabetically, rather than starting with the highest rate to the lowest, or vice versa. You wiki people are just weird with your rules. The only reason people would come to this page is to look at the numbers, not by country. SMDH at you goofballs. No wonder nobody takes you seriously. Re-order it in a meaningful way. Not some way that makes you all fell good. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:3769:EE00:C01D:CC9D:6F30:8654 (talk) 04:20, 14 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Cluelessness is allowed among Wikipedia commenters. But I clarified the sorting info and instructions further. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:40, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * It would be possible to automate the sorting process with a Lua module, of course. Should we request a new module at WP:Module requests? Jarble (talk) 04:00, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I know nothing about Lua modules. I update the list around once a year using this method: commons:Commons:Convert tables and charts to wiki code or image files. I have since discovered that I may be able to use the Visual Editor in the process too. But I have no idea whether any of it is compatible with Lua modules. I don't want any process that is time consuming though. Feel free to research any of this. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:56, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks to Timeshifter, et al.
I visit this page regularly, when I'm writing an article on politics or human rights, and yet I've never looked on the Talk page before. This time I was trying to figure out how to combine the different amounts for all the UK territories, to see if that's how someone had arrived at a statistic about it's incarceration rates. I'm pretty sure the answer is not that I just add them all together, but that's the best I can do - I suck at statistical math. So I was hoping someone in the Talk page had already asked about how to make such calculations.

I think this is one of the most appalling talk pages I've seen on Wikipedia, and I recently had to report a guy who claimed all the editors on a page were Feminazis working undercover for Planned Parenthood (I didn't report him for that specifically). But this page is almost as bad. People whining that everyone who speaks English must know what circa means - I guess it doesn't occur to anyone Wikipedia might be used by kids as a research portal? Accusing Wiki editors of childishly boycotting Cuba's statistics instead of simply asking if they are available? And people going off on racist and psycho-religious rants because someone isn't willing to manually change the data around in the source material, to present it exactly the way (s)he wants it. It's galling the conceit and bile people will spew at strangers.

In particular I want to thank Timeshifter for all the effort he has put into this page, and offer my own sympathies at the crap he's had to take to do it. It's amazing to me how many people "walk" onto this page and talk to another person like they were sub-human, because they aren't clever enough to use a sorting arrow in a column header. And as someone who keeps trying to get her organization to use live-data pre-fab reports, while they keep insisting on me manually creating pretty little condensed reports, I am especially grateful for the time that must've been spent in front of an infinite spreadsheet. So from a humble research junkie, my thanks to all the pages contributors, but obviously most particularly Timeshifter. CleverTitania (talk) 08:13, 27 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi CleverTitania, and thanks! Somehow I missed your comment until now. I looked at your user page and it seems you do a lot of web stuff yourself. Wikipedia is definitely the wild west, but I can usually take all the crap shoveled out here and elsewhere on Wikipedia talk pages. I think it is a guy thing, and we probably enjoy the back and forth too much at times. :) I have found more interesting things to do though, and so I let most of it slide. But appreciation makes anybody's day, and so thanks again. --Timeshifter (talk) 06:18, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

[Possible] correlation to drug use/strictness
Anyone knows if anything correlates best with the rate (except for maybe testosterone..)? Males are 50/50 mostly anywhere, so if can only explain, higher rates of males vs. females, not huge difference between countries.. Poverty (Africa is certainly poor)? Drug use? Death penalty?

The war on drugs, seems to be it. If you subtract drug-related incarcerations, would you get a much more uniform distribution among countries? Even murder/violence rate (that is high in America, and correlates(?), or not, with drug use), is probably not a predictor (see: List of countries by intentional homicide rate), as some other countries (South Africa?) have much violence (murder?). It's ok to speculate here WP:OR, but not out of the talk page. If anyone thinks they know, at least can guide the search for good statistics - that I think would serve well in the article. comp.arch (talk) 20:21, 18 August 2015 (UTC)


 * See: Incarceration in the United States. It gives some possible reasons for its higher incarceration rate. See also: Mandatory sentencing and War on Drugs. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:27, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorting in mobile view
The sorting does not work in mobile view. The second header row is just empty (now sorting arrows) and clicking into those fields has no effect. (After switching to desktop mode it works on mobiles too.) —2A01:598:88C0:F21D:1:2:C800:169D (talk) 19:59, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't have a cell phone, so I can not see this. If it is a bug, maybe someone can see if it has been reported at Phabricator. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:58, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Removed flags for now
I discovered that the flags were causing the rows to not be aligned. Especially at small font sizes. Look at the bottom of the chart to see. Check various versions of the article with and without flags.

The row misalignment caused by the flags alone only shows up clearly at smaller font sizes. It is most clear at the bottom of the chart.

So for now, please do not return the flags. Right now the rows in the country chart are perfectly aligned. See:
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Timeshifter/Sandbox55
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate&oldid=678886912

There is a patch for row numbering is being tested now.

Please see Phabricator thread:

jquery.tablesorter: Add support for a "fixed" column.
 * https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42618

From that thread there is recent notice of a patch for row numbering that is being tested now as an option for tables in the MediaWiki software. See:
 * https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/234473

So we may soon no longer need all the convoluted methods we have been working on to get row numbering that stays aligned. We will also get flags back once the patch discussed in Phabricator is implemented. Then we can also add a notes column, references within the chart, etc.. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:05, 1 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I don't know what the holdup is with the patch being implemented. See T42618. --Timeshifter (talk) 09:48, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Table fully updated 1 October 2016 from source
For info on how it was done see: --Timeshifter (talk) 21:35, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
 * User:Timeshifter/Sandbox60.
 * Commons:Convert tables and charts to wiki code or image files.

Table fully updated on June 8, 2018
For info on how it is done more quickly see: --Timeshifter (talk) 08:29, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
 * User:Timeshifter/Sandbox74

Recommend color change for "no data" in world map
The light gray color of the "no data" countries in the world map blend in too much with the light blue countries. It makes North Korea look like it has a low-moderate incarceration rate. I recommend a more distinctive color for "no data" countries. Perhaps black? Or red? --JHP (talk) 14:44, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I suggest leaving notes here:
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File_talk:Prisoners_world_map_png2.png&action=edit&redlink=1
 * commons:User talk:Jannick88
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 03:01, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Talk page for the map has been started:
 * commons:File talk:Prisoners world map png2.png
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 00:36, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Table fully updated on 18 October 2018
See how it was done here: --Timeshifter (talk) 02:43, 19 October 2018 (UTC)
 * User:Timeshifter/Sandbox79

Youth incarceration table for the US, necessary?
This article has a global scope. I don't disagree youth incarceration in the US is a significant issue, but virtually every country has youth imprisoned. If I wanted, I could drum up data on youth imprisonment over time for Australia (I am Australian) and make a table. If everyone got a table, what is basically a list article would become bloated. Wouldn't it be better to just have the current number of American imprisoned youths, and the link to youth imprisonment in the United States?

For instance, in 2014, 22,000 juveniles were imprisoned in Brazil: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/mar/03/brazil-crime-rates-brutal-treatment-young-offenders

Revoran (talk) 03:31, 12 November 2018 (UTC)


 * By the way, apologies for screwing up the main list table by adding the wrong numbers. That was my bad. Glad to see you fixed it. Revoran (talk) 04:26, 12 November 2018 (UTC)


 * World Prison Brief numbers sometimes include juvenile incarceration in the total incarceration numbers. For example;
 * http://www.prisonstudies.org/country/australia


 * So it is important to know the exceptions. And since US leads in incarceration rate, it is important to know that there are even more not included in the main table. Lists are summaries. People don't want to have to go to another page and decipher a long article to find what is easily found in a list article.
 * And we have the space. See: WP:NOTPAPER
 * If juveniles are not included in World Prison Brief total numbers for Brazil, then feel free to add a note for Brazil.
 * Maybe start a separate list for juvenile incarceration rates by country if you find enough numbers. Someone may have already done so online, and we can copy it to Wikipedia.
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 04:39, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Initial sorting by descending incarceration rate. Rank order column
If someone wants to update the table completely, and put it initially in descending order by incarceration rate, I have no objection.

The rank order column could be integrated in the table. It is much easier to do it now. See the Visual Editor section at the end of Help:Table.

This would allow people to see the rank order on more cell phones.

Please do not delete the existing row number column though, until you have created a new table in a sandbox or user page. A table with an integrated rank order column. Create your own sandboxes: Special:MyPage/Sandbox, Special:MyPage/Sandbox2, Special:MyPage/Sandbox3. As many as you want.-- Timeshifter (talk) 14:35, 15 April 2019 (UTC)

Table format
Regarding your revert, the table is a technical mess, from empty row headers containg just line breaks, over two separate tables running alongside (most phones won't and don't render this properly), to broken actual row headers ("Incareration Rate per population", "Prison Population [and there is an invisible line break in that title, too]). IMO, the long country header could also be abbreviated to "sovereign entitiy". Also, as I already stated, Wikipedia articles are not meant to explain how Wikipedia works, so "''Click the sorting cell (with the icon) below the incarceration rate header to sort by rate. (Requires JavaScript.)''" is completely unnecessary. This what, in this case, Help:Table and Help:Sorting are for. My proposition was to remove the superflous explaining text, and either remove or merge the rank row (which, itself, also seems superflous, because it just goes with the alphabetical order already present in the main table, but then does not sort with it. You say that this has been discussed extensively, but from a quick glimpse over the revisions, that doesn't appear to be the case, and the only similar discussion is one above that asks whether the table could be sorted by rate from the get-go, unrelated to my issue. Regards. Lordtobi  ( &#9993; ) 14:41, 15 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Please see Help:Sorting and the section called "Auto-ranking or adding a row numbering column (1,2,3) next to a table". The row headers are not broken. There are breaks in them in order to keep the table narrow. See that Help:Sorting section, and the sections that follow it, for more info.
 * It is common with tables to explain parts of it. For example; List of U.S. states by incarceration and correctional supervision rate.
 * Sovereign entity is not nearly as clear and understandable as "Country (or dependent territory, subnational area, etc.)". Am I correct in believing that English is not your native language?
 * List of U.S. states by incarceration and correctional supervision rate is an example of a table that needs a separate row number column. Because there are 3 separate columns that are important enough that people want to be able to see any one of them in rank order. That can't be done with an integrated rank order column. It can only be done with a fixed row number column. -- Timeshifter (talk) 03:54, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Unsourced claims on the war on drugs as "slavery"
This articles portrays the war on drug as a "continuation of slavery" while the war on drugs is indeed catastrophical for black people, it being a continuation of slavery is an unsourced and biased claim. As such this should be deleted or a section should be added to reference what some activists claim it is, but should not be cited as facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.44.130.205 (talk) 16:53, 11 June 2019 (UTC)


 * This article is a list article. Reasons for various incarceration rates belong in country articles. Look in the categories, and check out the articles:
 * United States incarceration rate
 * Comparison of United States incarceration rate with other countries
 * Category:Penal systems by country
 * Category:Incarceration rates
 * -- Timeshifter (talk) 18:46, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Why aren't the incarceration rates listed from highest to lowest?
Hi. Why would you list international Incarceration rates of nations alphabetically in a table, if you wanted people to consume them? How can a person follow and sort the list to make sense of it, simply by viewing a list of 200 nations or so in an arbitrary alphabetic sequence? They would have to manually figure out how to do that, on a piece of paper or a device. Is there a way that we can make this long table adjustable by column, as if it were a column in a spreadsheet, and we were applying a sort to re-present the list in a more meaningful way, such as from highest to lowest or the inverse, or another column of merit to sort it? Currently we have to resort to another website's database where it would most likely listed in from the worst to the least. Any ideas? Stevenmitchell (talk) 08:15, 4 August 2019 (UTC)


 * It is too difficult to maintain the table in highest to lowest order (or the reverse). That order can change with a single country update by any random editor. Plus one gets highest to lowest order (or the reverse) by clicking the rate sorting header.


 * I just moved the rate sorting instructions down so it is closer to the table and more visible. I also added the word "sort" to the rate column sorting cell. -- Timeshifter (talk) 10:27, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Much easier and better method for creating static row number column
Thanks for installing Static column begin and End

Basically, this is all that is needed at the top of the table to add the row number column:

{|class="wikitable nowrap sortable" border=1 style=text-align:right; ! height=140px | Country (or dependent territory, subnational area, etc.)

And this goes at the end of the table:

I added  class="wikitable nowrap sortable"  to simplify things further.

The nowrap class means the table rows do not ladder as the screen is narrowed. So the rows always align.

I set the header height to 140px so that people can increase the text size all the way to around 150% in their browsers without causing row alignment problems. -- Timeshifter (talk) 08:59, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Row numbers. 3 columns that people may want to see in rank order
There are 3 columns in this table that people may want to see in ascending or descending order:
 * Incarceration rate.
 * Prison population.
 * Percent of prisoners unsentenced.

And they may also want to see how the countries rank by number.

This can only be done with a row number column. Currently, a fixed or static row number column can not be integrated with a table.

A separate row number column will not align with this table on cell phones.

Please encourage the Wikimedia Foundation and developers to make it a higher priority to have an option for an integrated row number column in tables. If it is integrated in the table, then it will remain aligned with the table in both narrow and wide screens.

See:  T42618: jquery.tablesorter: Add support for a "fixed" column of row numbers. -- Timeshifter (talk) 03:32, 18 September 2019 (UTC)


 * I fixed the phabricator link number in the above post. It is  T42618.


 * Also, see the section below about a much easier and better method. -- Timeshifter (talk) 09:40, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Country links
None of the country links work. Those with sections on this page do,. But, that's fine, I'll redo the edit without the section links. Guarapiranga (talk) 23:21, 20 November 2019 (UTC)


 * I don't see any advantage by using Template:Flagg. And the documentation says that templates like Template:Flaglist are better in some cases. From the Template:Flagg documentation:
 * {| class=wikitable


 * Comparison with other templates.
 * These "specialized" templates predate Flagg, and while most do not have options for custom links and images, they are probably faster because they only do two transclusions without invoking Lua.


 * }
 * -- Timeshifter (talk) 23:27, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Not necessary to explain basic web browsing and number literacy
We don't need to explain to readers how to sort a table or what circa means (at least not on this page).

Most all of this has been discussed before on the talk page.

Yeah, I see others have pointed that out to you in the past (10 years?? Wow!). I see how dedicated you are to this article,, but I'm afraid you've grown a little too cagey about it. As it stands now, this article is way out of whack against WP:MOS. Guarapiranga (talk) 05:43, 21 November 2019 (UTC)


 * No it's not. I have around 56,000 edits on Wikimedia projects. Notes are common on table pages. And notes are common in references. -- Timeshifter (talk) 05:50, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Notes in general? Sure. Notes explaining how to navigate and read tables on the web and what circa means? No. Also, there are plenty of note templates on WP to point directly to the relevant text in the correct style, rather than to a general Notes section. And that's usually done with a superscripted link, not a table column either. You've mentioned your 56,000 edits 2-3 times now, but somehow in all this time figuring out how to put a simple fixed rank column seems to have evaded you. Sometimes it does take thousands of edits to get what you want… when you don't know your way around the code. Guarapiranga (talk) 07:14, 21 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Apparently almost no one knew about the usefulness of Static column begin until you expanded the number of rows from 200 to 1000 on Oct 22, 2019. See the history of the template. There was another template, but it was used on only 2 pages (a user page and a draft page): Static column begin 300 rows. The documentation for both was appalling until I updated it earlier today. Both templates used the same documentation. The 2nd template now redirects to the first template. A good idea of yours.


 * Most country pages have over 200 rows, and so I am not surprised few people knew of it. Especially since the documentation made it sound like it was much more difficult to use than it is. It is actually very simple to use once one sees adequate instruction about it.


 * I checked the main Phabricator thread working on this:  T42618. It is titled: jquery.tablesorter: Add support for a "fixed" column of row numbers. It goes back to 2012. There is no mention of the template until I mentioned it Nov 20, 2019.


 * There was a single line about the template on Help:Sorting until I mentioned it yesterday in more detail in a different section. I will be explaining it in much greater detail there later.


 * Help:Table currently has nothing about Static column begin. -- Timeshifter (talk) 03:33, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Table data updated. Pretrial detainees to separate table.
See my sandbox for this table update: User:Timeshifter/Sandbox98.

I retrieved the latest data a few days ago and worked on updating the table the last few days.

The rates and totals each had 223 lines at the source.

The pretrial detainees had 217 lines at the source.

So combining them is more work than I want to do.

Plus the rank row numbers do not work as well the wider the table is. The rank template requires the nowrap class. So on narrower screens the tables are not fully viewable. Mobile phones for instance.

So it is better that there are 2 tables. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:51, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Cuba data

 * (The first post in this section was moved here from a talk page.)

The table is only allowed to use World prison Brief data, even if that data is outdated and incorrect?

Lonelyeditor19 (talk) 03:01, 27 April 2020 (UTC)


 * This article has a long tradition of only using data from the World Prison Brief in the main table. This is because it would be too difficult to maintain a table with around 200 countries requiring hundreds of references. Some of the references would disagree with other references for the same country. And they might use different standards.


 * This is a common problem for country lists and tables. Most pick one source and use their numbers in the main table. Additional data goes in "notes" sections or some other section. --Timeshifter (talk) 09:28, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

China
Please put info at Re-education through labor, Laogai, and Xinjiang internment camps. There is more room for balanced WP:NPOV discussion there.

Here is the shortened version just below:

Here is the section as it was just before it was shortened to the above info.

Some of the above info could be integrated into Re-education through labor, Laogai, and Xinjiang internment camps. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:44, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Cuba. Other articles
Please put info at Human rights in Cuba and at Law enforcement in Cuba. There is more room for balanced WP:NPOV discussion there.

Here is the shortened version just below:

Here is the section as it was just before it was shortened to the above info.

Some of the above info could be integrated into Human rights in Cuba and at Law enforcement in Cuba. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:55, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Missing data reported as 0/100%
The new table looks a lot better! I was actually working on the same thing but I'm glad someone else did it now as I won't want to keep updating it. I do notice you pasted many values as 0 or 100% where they are in reality missing. I tried to fix your version manually, but we both committed an edit at the same time and I couldn't properly get my edits in again. I hope it's easier for you to fix, or just copy the version from my sandbox. CasparV (talk) 10:15, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * The new table looks a lot better!
 * Thanks,
 * I was actually working on the same thing but I'm glad someone else did it now as I won't want to keep updating it.
 * Here it is, so anyone can easily update the data.
 * I do notice you pasted many values as 0 or 100% where they are in reality missing.
 * Fixed.
 * -- Guarapiranga (talk) 11:14, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

UK not displayed as a whole
There's a text now that says "The table source does not list an incarceration rate for the United Kingdom as a whole. In the list see United Kingdom: England & Wales, United Kingdom: Northern Ireland, United Kingdom: Scotland. ...". This omits Anguila, Bermuda, Cayman Islands, and multiple other islands.

Furthermore, the same applies to other countries; at least France, Netherlands, USA, Denmark, New Zealand, China. I'd suggest just explaining the concept that some countries are split in regions, and let the reader do the rest of the thinking.

CasparV (talk) 10:32, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Guarapiranga (talk) 11:28, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * You just . I'm not sure why you're saying that; I'm simply trying to get the article into WP:MOS shape. Repeating the same obvious explanation--such as how to navigate webpages or how to do basic arithmetic--over and over again on the same article is not WP:MOS compliant. Guarapiranga (talk) 11:38, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * . I put the UK info in the United Kingdom note. It is important that the info be in the article, because other people have requested the info before.


 * . The explanatory reference info you keep deleting is not found in the direct references. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:45, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * okay that's acceptable. I added the missing UK territories that weren't in the list though. If you think it's ugly to make such a long list, consider excluding the small islands by naming it "countries of the United Kingdom" or "Great Britain and Nothern Ireland". CasparV (talk) 11:57, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * . I like your addition of other parts of the UK. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:47, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

New table is too wide. Some of the headers are unclear
. On my iphone x in landscape view it is too wide. In mobile view on the iphone I can't see all the table. If I squeeze the table, it is not consistent in what I can see. And then I sometimes lose the ability to drag the rest of the table in view. It is an inconsistent mess.

In desktop view on the iphone, I can squeeze the table to make it fit, but then the text is too small.

There were a total of 6 non-duplicated columns in all the tables before this wide one was added. I count 4 new columns.

So, I think we could consolidate everything to 2 or 3 tables total, and still have readable tables in my iphone, and in other people's cell phones with less wide screens. I think 3 tables total would be better to reach more cell phone readers.

I am assuming you have downloaded the latest data? So feel free to set this up since you probably have it halfway there already in your spreadsheet software. The preexisting tables have older data than what you have put in the wide table?

Also, I think some of the columns are % percent? Some of the columns need to be labeled more clearly.

And some of the references in this new wide table are not working. --Timeshifter (talk) 08:36, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I think 3 tables total would be better to reach more cell phone readers.
 * The point of consolidating all the data on the same table is to cross-examine it. This is not a wide table by any measure--there are plenty of far wider tables on WP, if that's what you're worried about. Guarapiranga (talk) 11:41, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * I will break up the table into 2 or 3 parts when you are done editing it. I already had it ready, but I was unable to get it in the article before you started editing again. No big deal. So I will need to break it up again from the latest table. Here is the old attempt:
 * User:Timeshifter/Sandbox146
 * It only takes me a few minutes to break up a large table into smaller tables.
 * You ignored my points about cell phones. And just because "there are plenty of far wider tables on WP" does not mean it is a good idea. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:52, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I will break up the table into 2 or 3 parts when you are done editing it
 * Now that is "edit warring". Guarapiranga (talk) 11:56, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Guarapiranga. You immediately become hostile. I was being polite by saying I would wait before breaking up the table. I don't want to slow your flow. You are doing great work. Take a breath. Count to ten. Assume good faith. There is no edit war. I haven't reverted you. If anything, you are doing the edit warring. You have reverted me concerning the number of tables. You removed all the old tables. But I honestly don't mind. The data was old compared to the new data in your table. It just needs to be broken up into 2 to 3 tables. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:32, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Please don't break up that table. It's so so so much more structured and legible now. The article deserves more text, not bigger tables for the same amount of numbers. I could imagine removing the 'male' and 'domestic' columns if necessary. CasparV (talk) 12:46, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * There is no edit war.
 * You are the one who !
 * Assume good faith.
 * You should take your own advice.
 * It just needs to be broken up into 2 to 3 tables.
 * No, it doesn't.
 * -- Guarapiranga (talk) 12:51, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * It's working perfect over here, both on desktop (MacOS Chrome) and on mobile (Android Chrome) and Safari emulating iPhone (iOS 13.1.3). Why you'd want to break such an already long table up *widthwise*, making the entire page even longer, is completely besides me. I'd suggest looking into why you can't view all columns next to each other on iPhone. I can just scroll to the side and/or zoom properly, like any other WP table, on the default skin (Vector Legacy) without any custom CSS/JS.
 * Just like you I was also working on an improved version of the page without telling anyone else. Guarapiranga's version was published first, and I see no reason to replace it as it's working fine. Telling other users that it's "no big deal" to undo their work and get your way is not proper WP conduct.
 * And a final thought: do datasets like this table really belong on Wikipedia? It's just an almost verbatim copy of data from 1 source, it's prone to getting outdated, there's no clear copyright statement allowing WP to publish this data, ... CasparV (talk) 12:08, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, . As for the copyright, mostly all List of countries by articles on WP are from single sources (e.g. List of countries by population (United Nations)). Guarapiranga (talk) 12:18, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * That doesn't have to do with copyright, but at least it means datasets like this are not unique on WP, that's okay then. CasparV (talk) 12:45, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Also, no probs seeing it on my mobile either:
 * Screenshot mobile 2021-04-29 22-26-33.jpg
 * Guarapiranga (talk) 12:34, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * . Please see my reply to Guarapiranga. I am not undoing his work.
 * Facts (such as data) can not be copyrighted. For more info see:
 * Commons:Template:PD-chart and the links in that banner. For example;
 * commons:Commons:Threshold_of_originality - follow its discussion links to go all the way back to the data.
 * The wide chart here is also too wide on my ipad.
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 12:35, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Copyright laws on datasets vary by country, here in Europe it's very well possible to copyright a dataset that you curated. Even though you didn't 'create' the numbers in it and can't copyright that, you spent efforts to aggregate them and you can decide whether or not to allow others to copy entire tables. Much like paraphrasing from literature is allowed by default, but copying entire textbooks or entire journal articles isn't. Even if the original document is free, and even with proper attribution. World Prison Brief, a UK-based organization, doesn't seem to mention any specific license, and as such they automatically have UK database rights. I think we're implicitly assuming fair use here, which might not really be WP policy: Requesting_copyright_permission. I don't see anything relevant to datasets in the links your provided. CasparV (talk) 12:46, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * On the flipside, I've seen tables compiled over various sources being taken down on WP under accusations of WP:OR. So, if both those policies are to hold, that'd be the end of Wikipedia data tables (huahuahua--evil laughter). Guarapiranga (talk) 12:59, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * As an epidemiologist leaning towards data science, I always prefer sending people back to the source instead of making duplications of data (do make backups though :p). Copying invariably leads to outdated data, and important information inevitably goes missing (for instance, we haven't listed when these numbers were last updated). On the other hand, it's helpful for the general public if we make proper, correct overviews of such data, accompanied by the relevant context and caveats, instead of letting amateurs do a shoddy job at it. (not a comment specifically regarding this page, more concerning data duplication on WP in general). CasparV (talk) 13:21, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * . I think if you follow the discussions far enough you will see that murky area between data and datasets developed further. My understanding is that it is considered public domain on Wikipedia for most data, including basic statistical charts, table, and graphs. And Wikipedia isn't publishing phone books or other huge datasets. And Wikipedia doesn't follow all the laws of all countries.


 * I was under the wrong impression in the past that Wikipedia considered basic statistical tables, charts, and graphs to be copyrighted. I was wrong. They are just standard, non-original formats to hold data. Kind of like a paragraph is a container for words. You can copyright the words only if they meet the copyright law standard of originality. You can't copyright the paragraph container. It is no longer original. Basic tables, bar charts, and line graphs are just containers for data. But don't believe me. I only learned this after assuming otherwise. We found some experts in those discussions. The end result is at commons:Commons:Threshold of originality. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:12, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * What external material WP considers 'copyrighted' is quite irrelevant; they don't make the rules. And they've been anal enough about many copyright issues in the past. Turning a blind eye to datasets is pretty out-of-character. What do you suggest? Asking WPB for their permission (I'm willing to do it), or asking one of the wizards you found before? CasparV (talk) 13:28, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Let me try pecking on this new iPad. I think my keyboard case comes in today. Do whatever you want. It’s not copyrighted material as far as Wikimedia is concerned. Plus I think the main servers are on US territory, so technically US law applies. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:15, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Tables have messed up index columns
All the large sortable tables have an issue (at least on MacOS Chrome and Safari) where the columns with row indices are not in line with the corresponding rows (screenshot example). I cannot seem to fix it; reverting the last edit did make it better in the preview, but not on the actual page. Copying the WP code for the table to my sandbox, or even copying the entire article, does not replicate the error (super weird, it doesn't seem to be a caching problem on my side either).

unfortunately I am not experienced enough in WP to troubleshoot this, but you seem to be keeping an eye on this page for a long time. I have read the topic 'Much easier and better method for creating static row number column' above, but it doesn't help me. Do you have any idea? CasparV (talk) 13:17, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Not here. Guarapiranga (talk) 21:13, 26 April 2021 (UTC)


 * . I checked in the Safari browser on an ipad and an iphone. I don't see a problem. I don't have a Mac, so I can't help there.


 * Please see this Phabricator thread:
 * jquery.tablesorter: Add support for a "fixed" column of row numbers.
 * https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T42618
 * Please leave a note there about this problem with MacOS Safari and Chrome.
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 23:49, 26 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I also have this problem (Firefox and Edge on desktop) and 's edit didn't fix it for me. The alternative method to Rank seems to be Row numbers if someone wants to try that. Then, of course, there is the dumb way of simply adding in the numbers as a normal column. Since these lists are always from one source, individual rows aren't going to be added or removed continuously, which means that this automatic indexing is of little convenience. – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:33, 27 April 2021 (UTC)


 * My latest edits were for unrelated problems.
 * With Row numbers the row numbers are not static (fixed). Whereas with Rank the row numbers are fixed and do not sort. An integrated number column is also not fixed.
 * Fixed row numbers are useful when there are 2 or more columns that can be ranked. Like the main table here that has columns for incarceration rates and for incarceration populations.


 * I tried a different method of adding fixed row numbers in this sandbox linked below. Plus I added another trick to hopefully keep the tops of the tables aligned. and . Tell me if this is better:
 * User:Timeshifter/Sandbox143
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 05:11, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I can't tell. I tried to replicate the original bug in my sandbox to see if your fix helps. But, mysteriously, the same wikitext that messes up the tables in the article works without issues in my sandbox! – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 14:26, 27 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Like I said, the problem doesn't replicate in a sandbox. However the problem still persists in the article. Also in other browsers:
 * Win7 Firefox 88,
 * Win7 IE11,
 * Chrome for Android when I request the desktop site (en.wikipedia.org),
 * but not when I request the mobile version (en.m.wikipedia.org).
 * Perhaps you've only tested on the mobile site? The screenshot from User:Guarapiranga was also from the mobile site. Of course WP uses different CSS on that site, perhaps this template wasn't tested properly for the desktop site. Pro tip: you can use www.browserling.com to replicate the error.
 * I do love the idea of an index column that remains upon sorting. But of course as is, it's unusable. I will submit to phabricator, as I see many messed up pages here.
 * CasparV (talk) 07:43, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The screenshot from User:Guarapiranga was also from the mobile site.
 * No, it was from desktop Vector at Opera (Chromium) on Windows (10). Guarapiranga (talk) 11:50, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Interesting, I don't get those expand marks on the non-mobile page, even with Vector. Switching from Vector Legacy (the current default) to Vector does solve the problem, but unfortunately Vector is not yet the default skin until somewhere later in 2021. But just waiting wouldn't be quite enough: it also doesn't work in skins Modern and MonoBook. CasparV (talk) 20:24, 28 April 2021 (UTC)


 * left me a message on my talk page because we had a similar discussion a year or so ago and suggested a CSS solution. As a first pass (see right) I've used  to add CSS for a class   which prefixes the table rows with the row count. There is an obvious problem with the header row being numbered, but this should be solvable. Is this a step in the right direction? [fixed] —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 14:42, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I've tweaked the CSS file to give a better result. Rather than use the   directly (as my example), I think it should be put in a template that just gets placed before the table. How about table static column count? The template also provides a place for documentation, which basically is add template, add class   to target table, and add header column. —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 17:17, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * That's a much more elegant solution than Rank, ! Probably more efficient too. What's with the extra column to the right after reordering by any of the columns, though? I couldn't get rid of it in your example. And also couldn't reorder by Prison Population. Guarapiranga (talk) 22:56, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I left a note at User talk:Jts1882‎. See also: User:Timeshifter/Sandbox144. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:07, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * The table was sorting but the column before the header cell. So I changed it to set a header column using the same CSS trick. This means it has to be a predetermined value (e.g. "#" or "") as templates and modules cannot manipulate the .css files. I also couldn't find a css  option to colour the prefixed header cell and had to set the background colour to the   colour (which might be different in different themes or viewing modes). —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 06:24, 28 April 2021 (UTC)


 * It is working great now. See my comments at User talk:Jts1882‎, and see here:
 * User:Timeshifter/Sandbox144 - short tables. Various tests.
 * User:Timeshifter/Sandbox144 - Long table. Test of sorting speed in various browsers on desktop PC, and on iphone. Sorting speed is very fast in various browsers.
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 10:44, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Perfect indeed. Can the code in rank be upgraded to this css trick without breaking all ranked tables on WP? Guarapiranga (talk) 11:57, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * (with below)
 * The basic functionality can be added, but it might be hard to get the parameters working to get an exact match. I don't think header-text can be replicated so that would have to be ignored. row wouldn't be needed. Most of the others seem concerned with tweaking the alignment so perhaps are unnecessary. It would need an outer table so the end is matched.
 * Replacement might be better as suggested below. —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 12:49, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I have a functional version at Static_column_begin/sandbox. A problem is that it has an unmatched div element, which might not work in some browsers and will upset the linter gods. —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 15:04, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Unindent. . Here is the before and after of the relevant header wikitext for the main table here:

{|class="wikitable nowrap sortable mw-datatable" border=1 style=text-align:right id="rates"

is changed to:

 {|class="wikitable sortable mw-datatable static-column-count" border=1 style=text-align:right
 * +Incarceration populations and rates. From World Prison Brief.

Also, has to be removed from the end of the table.

The template will have a different name.

I don't think rank should be converted to the new css. Or redirected. Or bot replaced. Too many factors involved. I, and others, can go through this category and manually fix them all: I don't think it will be too difficult. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:34, 28 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Category:Articles with tables with fixed row numbers

Template created
I've created the template with the name suggested, Static row numbers. The class to use in the target table is now. A few options have been discussed here and on my talk page. I will look to add something soon. Please add any further suggestions here. —  Jts1882 &#124; talk


 * It's unfortunate that the background color for the "#"-cell can't follow the active skin in the last table here. Other than that, it seems really solid: not prone to the same alignment issues that depend on skin, browser, zoom, row height, ... A big improvement! Btw, if you haven't read it yet, keep in mind WP will transition its default skin. CasparV (talk) 20:52, 28 April 2021 (UTC)


 * It's looking great. I updated the sandboxes to use static row numbers:
 * User:Timeshifter/Sandbox144.
 * User:Timeshifter/Sandbox145.
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 23:54, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Unindent. . I noticed something weird when looking at the tables in my iphone x in mobile view. The hash header (#) is replaced by "1". Then it counts down the rows starting with 2, then 3, etc..

It only happens in mobile view on my iphone x. Not in desktop view on my iphone.

I suggest making the default row number header blank. And then add the other options we discussed on your talk page: class=row-header-row, etc.. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:08, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Yeah, people complained about mobile view also here. On my desktop in mobile view, there's no "#" header; it starts with "1." on the header row.
 * I suggest making the default row number header blank.
 * Agreed. You may also want to omit that period after the numbers. I don't mind them, but I'm sure someone will complain (if nothing else, for legacy sake). Guarapiranga (talk) 06:01, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Update I've changed the defaults so as not to use the grey header and borders unless class  is used. The hash header is no longer used as default, but can be set by adding class. The numbers are not followed by a period unless  is added. See examples at Static_row_numbers/doc.
 * The mobile issue needs looking at. The problem is I've used  and   for the css selectors. The mobile view for some reason doesn't use   and places the header in the first row of   which causes the count to start in the header. This seems a bizarre design choice by Wikimedia. One solution is to use a   selector on   but then we have a problem if there are multiple header rows. Another alternative is to make mobile specific styles. I'll look into this. —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 07:29, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Turns out it's not an exclusively mobile issue. It looks like the /  blocks are added by class   and mobile ignores this class. —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 08:24, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Maybe we can get the mediawiki developers to finally agree to allow sortable tables in mobile view on cell phones. Solve 2 problems at once. --Timeshifter (talk) 08:39, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * This is phabricator task . I don't think this will happen soon.
 * I can get the CSS to work in mobile with different selectors, but unfortunately I can't see how to select one or the other. —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 15:04, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
 * . I left a note about this at the phabricator task linked to the right. I linked to User:Timeshifter/Sandbox144. --Timeshifter (talk) 03:45, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Country (or dependent territory, subnational area, etc.)
Unnecessary. Country is not synonymous with sovereign state. Guarapiranga (talk) 22:09, 29 April 2021 (UTC)


 * Header cell text: Country (or dependent territory, subnational area).
 * I agree that country has various meanings. But country does not cover all the entries in the list. Puerto Rico is not considered a country, for example. The linked pages for dependent territory, and subnational area, have modern info, and not just from 1964 info you quoted.
 * Whenever I, or others, do not include more than just "country" in a country list, someone eventually complains, and asks why the data source includes more than just countries. Or why don't we remove the entries that are not countries.
 * You could use just the word "country" in the header. Then put a note just above the table saying:
 * Country: This country list also includes some dependent territories, and subnational areas.
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 03:47, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
 * In my user sandbox 144 I shortened the header text to this:
 * Country, territory, subnational area
 * I also used style=max-width:14em;. It is better than   . It is better on narrow screens. Narrow your browser window to see. There is no weird laddering as occurs with.
 * By the way, Jts1882 has fixed all the static row number template problems. The number "1" is out of the header cell in all circumstances (mobile or desktop). Check in my sandbox 144. --Timeshifter (talk) 10:56, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Puerto Rico is not considered a country
 * The CIA disagree with you on that, (touch P to see Puerto Rico listed under countries there).
 * Whenever I, or others, do not include more than just "country" in a country list, someone eventually complains, and asks why the data source includes more than just countries.
 * "Someone" is just woefully uninformed. It's not editors' job satisfy readers, but WP:Policy.
 * You could use just the word "country" in the header. Then put a note just above the table saying: Country: This country list also includes some dependent territories, and subnational areas.
 * No need. Country already includes dependent territories and subnational areas, by definition. It's not synonymous with nation or national state. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 11:13, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * has fixed all the static row number template problems.
 * There's a lingering one: it numbers total/summary rows at the bottom of the table in mobile view (though not in desktop mode). — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 11:55, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * What table is this? —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 12:10, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * For instance, this one. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 12:35, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Add  to the header row at the bottom (see last example in Template:Static_row_numbers/doc). —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 12:58, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Ah, ok, thanks. Will do, but... interesting desktop view doesn't require it. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 13:09, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, that mobile/desktop difference has been a problem. The desktop version uses a  block in the HTML that is introduced by the   class, which makes the css styling straightforward. The mobile view ignores this class so behaves differently. It's not ideal as tables edited in desktop will behave differently in mobile unless they have additions that don't make a difference in desktop view. It might be better to make the class for the header rows mandatory in both views.—  Jts1882 &#124; talk 13:24, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

(unindent) From country:

So the definition is not set in stone. Like many definitions. Which is why readers complain on Wikipedia talk pages. It is easily fixed by adding a note, or the short header:
 * Country, territory, subnational area

You have a tendency towards confirmation bias. I suggest you read up on it. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:32, 1 May 2021 (UTC)


 * The 2nd source there is flagged as [unreliable source?].
 * If both definitions are accepted within WP.en, then any use satisfying at least one of them is internally consistent (readers' complaints notwithstanding).
 * — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 11:41, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

Domestic (%) is not referenced
I don't see a reference in the table header for it. --Timeshifter (talk) 23:07, 2 May 2021 (UTC)


 * = 100 - foreign, of course.
 * Added notes. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 23:29, 2 May 2021 (UTC)


 * See section above. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:10, 3 May 2021 (UTC)

Male and female rate chart is not to the right of the table on my 27 inch monitor
It is often not a good idea to try to put a chart to the right of a wide table.

In my 27 inch monitor there is not enough room. So the right-floating chart is forced above the statistical table. This looks weird. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:51, 2 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Oh, wow, what zoom level are you using?? Looks mighty fine on my lil 13" notebook screen:
 * List of countries by incarceration rate Screenshot 2021-05-03 093150.png
 * Perhaps mobile view would work better at that zoom level. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 23:36, 2 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Interesting. I am at 2560x1440, the default setting of my 27 inch monitor. Firefox browser is at default font size. And then in Windows 10 Pro:
 * Settings > Display > Scale and layout > 175%


 * I sit in a high back chair at my desk. My eyes are around 34 inches from the screen according to my yardstick.


 * All of this is common for many people. The only way I could get the chart and table to fit side-by-side at these settings was by removing class=nowrap that you just added back in. Then they barely fit. But if I zoom the text up a single level (to 110%) the chart pops back up above the table.


 * When I lower the resolution to 1920x1080 (which is the maximum resolution for many people with 27 inch and smaller monitors) they no longer fit side-by-side. I have a 20 inch 1920x1080 monitor at the kitchen table.


 * In fact, at 1920x1080 the table by itself is too wide (even with nowrap gone). There is a horizontal scrollbar in order to see the whole page with the Wikipedia sidebar. You can see that yourself on any monitor or laptop screen (in desktop view) by narrowing your browser window. At some point a scrollbar will show up.
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 11:24, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Why would you put "nowrap" back in when trying to put a chart to the right of a table?
 * to wrap titles not data
 * When I lower the resolution to 1920x1080 (which is the maximum resolution for many people with 27 inch and smaller monitors) they no longer fit side-by-side.
 * Mine, that screenshot above is at 1920x1080 and with Windows scaled up 125% (the actual, physical size of the screen is 13" but that's irrelevant). What's yours scaled at?
 * — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 23:46, 3 May 2021 (UTC)


 * As I said I use 2560x1440 on my 27 inch room desk monitor. And as I said I am scaled to 175% which is common for people sitting back at a desk.
 * Windows 10 > Settings > Display > Scale and layout > 175%


 * Your combined use of class-nowrap and class=wrap is not doing what you hoped for. The country names are not wrapping. See the table version with your changes:
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate&oldid=1021106967
 * Narrow your browser width in desktop view to see.
 * There is no need for either of those classes when using static row numbers.
 * style=max-width works fine. See the notes and example tables at '''User:Timeshifter/Sandbox144. I noticed you using style=max-width a lot more in your latest edits on various table articles. See also:
 * Catalogue of CSS classes.
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 13:37, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Table top
Below is the table top set to max-width:60em; - I removed the references. There is no class=nowrap in it. Narrow your browser window to see how far you can go before a horizontal scrollbar shows up.

"Territory" is in the list of examples of administrative divisions. So I removed "territory" from the column head below.

. Here is your current table top below. I removed the references. Only the note links remain. You are making the reader go to another part of the table to figure out what the columns are about. I see no advantage to using your notes to figure out that a column is about percentages or per million.

--Timeshifter (talk) 11:12, 3 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Yeah, just trying to make it less busy, but happy either way. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 23:34, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you. --Timeshifter (talk) 13:39, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Table for "Territory or other subnational area". Collapsed or not
Some collapsed tables (on other topics) are just below the main table in this list article:
 * List of countries by intentional homicide rate

They were initially uncollapsed tables, but were collapsed when the editors agreed that not all readers would be interested in their contents. But the content was important so it was kept in the article.

--Timeshifter (talk) 17:06, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Does the source make any distinction of "importance" between this or other data? No? Then that's WP:OR (or simply editors overextending themselves above and beyond the role of editors to impose their petty agendas). — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 21:07, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The World Prison Brief source thought it was important enough to include the country name (in parentheses) with all subnational areas. The pettiness seems to be on your end in not wanting to include this collapsed table of info supplied by the source. Especially since the first sentence in the article says "This is a list of countries and some dependent territories and subnational areas by incarceration rate." --Timeshifter (talk) 21:47, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's unnecessary, and definitely WP:OR; the source cited calls them all countries, making no distinction of "importance" between them. As I said above, I removed the parentheses for the sake of formatting, to satisfy your concern with the total width of the table. There is no change in content there, as, differently from the source, that is not hyperlinked, anyone can see what each entry on the table is by clicking on it or simply hovering over it. I only kept the ones in which the parentheses were essential to identify the entry, e.g. Virgin Islands (US) and Virgin Islands (UK). Having said that, I don't mind if the parentheses are restored back to the country names. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 22:41, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * World Prison Brief doesn't call them all countries. It doesn't say anything about them at all on the individual country pages other than the word "Country" on a form. I have a couple wikis and a couple old websites. I can tell you that webmasters creating websites don't fine-tune stuff. They create the structure, and let the editors fill in the details.
 * Where the editors did actually say anything is in the World Prison Brief PDFs. For example; see the publication list here:
 * Research & Publications. World Prison Brief.
 * See: World Pre-trial/Remand Imprisonment List (4th edition). April 2, 2020.
 * It says:
 * {| class=wikitable

prisoners held in penal institutions in 217 prison systems in independent countries and dependent territories.
 * This fourth edition of the World Pre-trial/Remand Imprisonment List shows the number of pre-trial/remand
 * }
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 23:54, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The reference there to dependent territories is clearly in contradistinction to independent countries. Evidently, dependent territories cannot be independent countries, not because territories cannot be countries, but because what's dependent is not, by definition, independent..
 * Here, on the other hand, they refer to Guam as a country:
 * So, yeah, WPB does call them all countries, some dependent, others independent. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 01:09, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * In the very next sentence that 2018 PDF says: "However, more than half of all countries and territories (53%) have rates below 150 per 100,000." Obviously they are not going to qualify every sentence with "countries and territories".
 * And WPB obviously makes the same common mistake of calling anything that is not an independent country a territory. WPB is a reliable source for prison statistics not the fine points of French departments. Because these 5 overseas departments and regions of France are not "countries" nor "territories": French Guiana. Guadeloupe. Martinique. Mayotte. Réunion. And you have yet to find an expert reliable source that says differently. Keep trying though, and don't be confused by the facts, if they get in the way of your confirmation bias. --Timeshifter (talk) 01:41, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Because these 5 overseas departments and regions of France are not "countries" nor "territories": French Guiana. Guadeloupe. Martinique. Mayotte. Réunion. And you have yet to find an expert reliable source that says differently.
 * Is the International Standards Organisation expert enough for you (since you don't find WPB sufficiently reliable on geography)?
 * {| class=wikitable

! style=max-width:4em | ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 code || Country
 * -valign=bottom align=center
 * align=center | GUF || 🇬🇫
 * align=center | GLP || 🇬🇵
 * align=center | MTQ || 🇲🇶
 * align=center | MYT || 🇾🇹
 * align=center | REU || 🇷🇪
 * }
 * — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 06:00, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Here is the first sentence from the Wikipedia article you linked to from the table (ISO 3166-1 alpha-3):
 * {| class=wikitable
 * align=center | REU || 🇷🇪
 * }
 * — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 06:00, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Here is the first sentence from the Wikipedia article you linked to from the table (ISO 3166-1 alpha-3):
 * {| class=wikitable


 * ISO 3166-1 alpha-3 codes are three-letter country codes defined in ISO 3166-1, part of the ISO 3166 standard published by the International Organization for Standardization (ISO), to represent countries, dependent territories, and special areas of geographical interest.
 * }
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 15:45, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Incarceration rates are usually per 100,000
Guarapiranga recently changed the incarceration rate numbers to per million.

The World Prison Brief source is per 100,000.

Both sources and Wikipedia articles usually use per 100,000:
 * List of U.S. states and territories by incarceration and correctional supervision rate
 * Comparison of United States incarceration rate with other countries
 * United States incarceration rate
 * US Bureau of Justice Statistics. Its massive compilation of rate data over the years is per 100,000.
 * World Prison Brief.

There are many scholarly articles comparing incarceration rates between countries. They almost all use per 100,000. Here is a table from one of those scholarly articles that compares US states to other countries: Its source tables are per 100,000:
 * commons:File:Female incarceration rates by country and US state.gif
 * https://www.prisonpolicy.org/global/appendix_2018.html

Drive-by editors sometimes update the incarceration rate numbers here for individual countries. So it is better that the numbers here and at the source match up to per 100,000. For ease of editing, and to avoid having to correct the numbers. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:46, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

General reference
Stop the edit war, Guarapiranga. Both the general and direct references are useful, relevant, and important. You have no agreement to remove this. No "edit war", ; I noticed the refs and notes I added--notes that you yourself requested--were no longer there, and thought were lost in the to and fro of edits. On the other hand, does really belong in a WP article on incarceration rates? Do internet readers really need to be instructed by WP editors on how to navigate the internet in this day and age? — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 08:48, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Some of us try to be helpful. The full reference:
 * {| class=wikitable


 * Highest to Lowest. World Prison Brief (WPB). Use dropdown menu to choose lists of countries by region, or the whole world. Use menu to select highest-to-lowest lists of prison population totals, prison population rates, percentage of pre-trial detainees / remand prisoners, percentage of female prisoners, percentage of foreign prisoners, and occupancy rate. Column headings in WPB tables can be clicked to reorder columns lowest to highest, or alphabetically. For detailed information for each country click on any country name in lists. The individual country pages also give the date of the data. See also the WPB main data page and click on the map links and/or the sidebar links to get to the region and country desired. Please update the tables here only from this WPB source.
 * }


 * And about the direct references; as I have said several times, I like the direct references. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:52, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Why is France subdivided?
Why are some regions of France that are full parts of the country, like Reunion, presented in the list? The page is "List of countries by incarceration rate". There is a further definition in the intro, which seem like a retro justification once it was noticed those aren't countries nor even dependencies, when logically the title should be followed and the lines removed. or the title changed. If we have Guadeloupe, which is fully part of France, there's no reason not to include Hawai, which is full part of the US, and so on. What's the logic behind including some countries both in full and divided, when most are only in full?--Aréat (talk) 16:06, 6 May 2021 (UTC)


 * We just copy the World Prison Brief lists. We could change the title of the article. Maybe to:
 * List of countries (and some dependent territories and subnational areas) by incarceration rate
 * This is a common problem with country lists. The longer names are kind of unwieldy. But I don't mind the longer name. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:27, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Why not simply have the list be of country rather than a weird mix of country, dependencies and subnational entities which seem completely random to me. We're not forced to blindly follow the source's way of making a list.--Aréat (talk) 17:34, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * See the full list at the source:
 * https://www.prisonstudies.org/highest-to-lowest/prison_population_rate?field_region_taxonomy_tid=All
 * A lot of people are interested in the more specific statistics for Puerto Rico, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Greenland, Hong Kong, Martinique, and so on.
 * There is no need for World Prison Brief to include US states like Hawaii. The US state statistics are easy to find elsewhere. World Prison Brief provides a world view. Much of the data they provide is difficult to find. Especially in one place. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:48, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Seem like totally random criteria, but if you insist, let's change the title instead, then.--Aréat (talk) 18:21, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * No need. Country is not synonymous with nation state: — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 21:50, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The reason the table header says "Country or subnational area" is for clarity. Country does not stand for the many different subnational administrative divisions. Dependent territories are not usually considered to be countries. But territories are considered to be subnational areas.
 * I support changing the article title for the sake of more clarity. This is not the first time that this discussion has happened. Various people have raised the same question. --Timeshifter (talk) 23:27, 6 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Dependent territories are not usually considered to be countries.
 * The CIA, a WP:RS, disagrees with you:
 * https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/american-samoa/
 * https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/christmas-island/
 * https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/clipperton-island/
 * https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/cook-islands/
 * https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/falkland-islands-islas-malvinas/
 * https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/puerto-rico/
 * The WP consensus for country also says otherwise (again, with emphasis, for clarity):
 * Usually is not a criterion for inclusion in WP; WP reflects RS, not common understanding. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 03:39, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why there's so much confusion about this here. It's not long ago that most countries in the world were not independent, as they belonged to one empire or another. It's only in the last 70-80 years that countries have become independent with their own nation states. Country is not a political entity; it's closest synonym is land, it refers to a physical space. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 03:55, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why there's so much confusion about this here. It's not long ago that most countries in the world were not independent, as they belonged to one empire or another. It's only in the last 70-80 years that countries have become independent with their own nation states. Country is not a political entity; it's closest synonym is land, it refers to a physical space. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 03:55, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

(Unindent) Guadeloupe is not a country. It is a department of France. Ask Areat. I believe he is French? Just like Hawaii is not a country. It is a state. We could have a request for comments. Have people answer whether the many subnational areas listed on the World Prison Brief link I put higher up are countries. That list has the countries in parentheses after the subnational areas. Like the various island territories, departments, etc.. You really should read that page on confirmation bias if you haven’t yet. You are embarrassing yourself by only looking at stuff that agrees with you. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:26, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Try going to Scotland and telling them Scotland is not a country. —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 07:01, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * You chose the example that is the closest to a country is status, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of others on that list are fully integrated parts of countries, with seemingly no reason as for why they're included and not the others parts. What are we to say if an user suddenly add the thirteen others french regions, as well as every fifty US states, plus all german landers, etc. I'm pretty sure we would eventually decide to go back to sovereign states. So let's do it already. By the way, I have yet to find a source calling Guadeloupe or the Réunion a country. Do you have one?--Aréat (talk) 11:03, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Why do you consider Scotland closest to country status? It's closer to England in most respects than Guadeloupe to metropolitan France. Country has different meanings in different contexts. Iirc, Wales is called a country, province and principality in one of its founding documents. In this case, the French overseas territories seem to have significantly higher incarceration rates so its more informative to list them separately. A particular egregious example of comparing apples and oranges is in this world map of poisonous species by country. It's technically accurate but very uninformative about poisonous animals in France. —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 11:41, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Scotland has been a sovereign country in the past. Guadeloupe hasn't. This map is a good example of what not to do with maps, and the article we're talking about is a list, not a map. I still don't see any source or reason given to divide up portion of some countries and not others. It's not even the distance, as Bosnia is divided with Srspka republic somehow getting its own line. Again, there's no reason for this completely random way of including bits of countries. We have no obligation to follow how one source cut countries up. If we allow some random non countries in the list, we could just as well included the thousands of subnational entities there is, in what we're titling a list of countries. This is absurd.--Aréat (talk) 13:44, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Just like Hawaii is not a country. It is a state.
 * Right. It's not listed as one. But Puerto Rico is. Even by the CIA:
 * https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/puerto-rico/
 * — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 21:45, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Puerto Rico is a territory of the United States. You can pick and choose your sources to confirm your bias, but Guam (another territory of the United States) is not called a country anywhere in its Wikipedia article. See:
 * Territories of the United States.
 * None of the territories listed there are called countries in that article.
 * So like many words the meaning of the word country is not the same for all. So get over it. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:59, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Guam ... is not called a country...
 * ... except by the US' own Central Intelligence Agency:
 * https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/guam
 * Puerto Rico is a territory of the United States.
 * Of course it is. And a country too:
 * https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/puerto-rico
 * You can pick and choose your sources
 * I don't "pick and choose" what sources WP editors deem reliable.
 * not called a country anywhere in its Wikipedia article
 * Now that is definitely not an RS! — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 01:22, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * That's cute. But the fact that the Wikipedia article editors did not choose to call territories "countries" shows that their choice of reliable sources is different from your choices. Their choices don't confirm your bias. --Timeshifter (talk) 01:32, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

(unindent). I agree with Jts1882 about the usefulness of more specific subnational areas. I have edited many country lists. The major islands are almost always included, whether they are separate sovereign countries or subnational territories, departments, etc.. Almost all the subnational areas on the list are islands:

I don't know why Guarapiranga removed the country in parentheses from the entries in the list. That helps readers understand why there has always been info in the intro like this:
 * This is a list of countries and some dependent territories and subnational areas by incarceration rate.

I think the country in parentheses should be put back into entries in the list. Or the above list should be put in a separate section. Just the above list. Not the data. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:18, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * A section for countries, and another below for dependencies/subnational areas could be a good compromise.--Aréat (talk) 15:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I prefer all the data in one table. So that sorting can compare rates, populations, percentages, etc.. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:47, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I'm not sure where all this belligerence about country classifications is coming from. What's the agenda? This is how the data is presented in the source. WP reflects its sources, not editors' agendas. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 21:34, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia chooses how much info to present from sources. It is not belligerent to ask why an article's content does not clearly reflect the article's title. Stop the personal attacks on Aréat. Since I agree with Aréat's traditional understanding of the meaning of country, then it makes sense to use a clearer title such as:
 * List of countries and some territories and subnational areas by incarceration rate.
 * Or a shorter title (since territory is a subnational area):
 * List of countries and some subnational areas by incarceration rate.
 * There are articles that are titled:
 * List of countries and territories by XXXX.
 * But I prefer subnational areas since some of the subnational areas in lists are not territories.
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 00:43, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Since I agree with Aréat's traditional understanding of the meaning of country
 * Wikipedia reflects understandings of WP:RS, not "traditional" ones.
 * then it makes sense to use a clearer title such as: List of countries and some territories and subnational areas by incarceration rate
 * That's unnecessarily longwinded.
 * The territories and subnational areas listed are countries according to WP:RS.
 * Territories and subnational areas that are not countries are not listed, prompting the question of why some are listed and some aren't, and inviting the list to be completed by adding non-listed territories.
 * Stop the personal attacks on Aréat.
 * None made. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 01:30, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't know why Guarapiranga removed the country in parentheses from the entries in the list.
 * Just to make the table narrower, as that was the issue that you were raising, . And also less busy. If readers don't know where, say, Bermuda is, or what it's part of, they can simply hover over or click it.
 * there has always been info in the intro like this
 * Yeah, that's redundant. What's the point of repeating the article title in the lead? Always been is not WP:policy either; content needs to be corrected even if it's been wrong for a long time. Or even if it had been right, and has suddenly become wrong because of a policy change. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 21:41, 7 May 2021 (UTC)


 * The title can not include links. So it is not duplicate info in the intro:
 * This is a list of countries and some dependent territories and subnational areas by incarceration rate.
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 00:39, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * These dependent territories are listed as countries in RSs; that's why it's redundant. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 01:04, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * You are so desperate to confirm your bias. Maybe you should go to Talk:Territories of the United States and try to get the editors to agree to call territories "countries". Good luck with that. No has even tried before as far as I can tell from the talk page and its archives. --Timeshifter (talk) 01:40, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * What "bias" of mine is that which you keep referring to? — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 01:46, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Try reading the linked article: Confirmation bias. Try reading this Wikipedia article too that directly contradicts your bias toward calling territories "countries":
 * Overseas departments and regions of France. From that article:
 * "The overseas departments and regions of France (départements et régions d'outre-mer, ; DROM) are departments of France that are outside metropolitan France, the European part of France. They have exactly the same status as mainland France's regions and departments."
 * In other words they are like US states. So why not just admit you are wrong? I have admitted being wrong several times in our discussions on other issues. The 5 overseas departments and regions in the Wikipedia article are also listed in the list I provided above. Here they are again:
 * French Guiana. Guadeloupe. Martinique. Mayotte. Réunion.
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 02:00, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * In other words they are like US states.
 * Uh, no, France is not a federation.
 * your bias toward calling territories "countries"
 * That's not a "bias"; it's the correct understanding of WP:RS. ISO is a WP:RS too. If something has a country code, it should be pretty evident ISO deems it a country (including 🇬🇺, 🇬🇵 and 🇵🇷).
 * So why not just admit you are wrong?
 * I can ask you the exact same question. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 02:34, 8 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Now you are making stuff up. See: List of ISO 3166 country codes. From it:
 * "The International Organization for Standardization (ISO) created and maintains the ISO 3166 standard – Codes for the representation of names of countries and their subdivisions."
 * You are still wrong in trying to call all US territories and French overseas departments and various other subdivisions "countries". --Timeshifter (talk) 03:00, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Wrong page. ISO 3166 has two code levels:
 * What matters to this issue is ISO 3166-1. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 07:26, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * ISO 3166-1: First paragraph:
 * {| class=wikitable


 * ISO 3166-1 (Codes for the representation of names of countries and their subdivisions – Part 1: Country codes) is a standard defining codes for the names of countries, dependent territories, and special areas of geographical interest. It is the first part of the ISO 3166 standard published by the International Organization for Standardization.
 * }
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 16:45, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Wrong page again. You should be looking at the source, not at WP. It's obvious that WP page is wrong (or at least outdated) when it says ISO 3166-1 is a standard defining codes for the names of countries, and the source itself emphasises that:. No word of dependent territories or special areas of geographical interest there either. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 09:32, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The first sentence at the source page you linked to:
 * {| class=wikitable


 * The purpose of ISO 3166 is to define internationally recognized codes of letters and/or numbers that we can use when we refer to countries and their subdivisions.
 * }
 * --Timeshifter (talk) 15:47, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * If the "overseas departments and regions of France" have "exactly the same status as mainland France's regions and departments", why does the concept of Metropolitan France exist? Metropolitan France and the overseas departments are de facto treated differently, just as Puerto Rico is treated differently from the 50 states of the US.
 * More generally, country does not mean sovereign nation state. It is a term with a variety of meanings as reliable sources show. It was used before the notion of nation states even existed and sometimes used for regions of kingdoms ruled by a sovereign. —  Jts1882 &#124; talk 08:59, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Metropolitan France has no legal basis, it's just a term. Or are you saying you support dividing the US in the table with lines for Rust Belt, Great bison belt, Tornado Alley and Mormon corridor ?--Aréat (talk) 09:55, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Metropolitan France has no legal basis
 * Neither does country, that's the whole confusion. It's not a legal entity. It's a land, that's all. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 11:15, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I get that argument, which has already been said, but as stated above it doesn't explain why we're only having some country with bits of its fully integrated regions separated while others aren't. There's no reason, it's completely random. And if we include them, then there's no reason no to include any random parts of any other country, like Alabama, Baviera or Victoria, which on this sole argument would be as much "countries" as Guadeloupe.--Aréat (talk) 13:04, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * There is no arguing; that'd be WP:OR. We simply reflect WP:RS. If they called Alabama a country, we'd list it as such. But they don't. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 13:16, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * They don't call Guadeloupe a country in the source.--Aréat (talk) 14:33, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * It's right there on its own page: https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/guadeloupe-france — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 09:09, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * None of the sources discussed on this talk page call these 5 overseas departments and regions of France "countries": French Guiana. Guadeloupe. Martinique. Mayotte. Réunion. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:35, 8 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Here's what the only source in this article says about them:
 * French Guiana
 * {| class=wikitable


 * Country||French Guiana (France)
 * }
 * Guadeloupe
 * {| class=wikitable


 * Country||Guadeloupe (France)
 * }
 * Martinique
 * {| class=wikitable


 * Country||Martinique (France)
 * }
 * Mayotte
 * {| class=wikitable


 * Country||Mayotte (France)
 * }
 * Réunion
 * {| class=wikitable


 * Country||Réunion (France)
 * }
 * It's clear the source regards them as countries, is it not? — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 09:22, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

(unindent). As I said previously, webmasters create forms, and editors fill them in. World Prison Brief is an expert on prisons, not overseas departments and regions of France. We can go round and round on this and you would still be wrong about '''French Guiana. Guadeloupe. Martinique. Mayotte. Réunion.''' They are neither countries nor territories. Just like US states are neither countries nor territories. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:09, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

Had a go at expanding the table...
... but found the result too busy. It's here, if anyone finds a way to make it more presentable. — 𝐆𝐮𝐚𝐫𝐚𝐩𝐢𝐫𝐚𝐧𝐠𝐚 (talk) 07:11, 11 May 2021 (UTC)