Talk:List of countries by intentional homicide rate

map no longer correlates with data in the table
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:8001:a702:13a8:351a:90bc:15e4:a903 (talk • contribs) 29 May 2022 (UTC)

The information on this page is so untrustworthy and useless that it should be deleted
There is no way on earth that the information reported in these statistics is even, on average, truthful. Or even close to truthful. China has less intentional homicides per capita than Iceland? Really? You're telling me I'm supposed to believe that Russia has less intentional homicides than the United States? Or even that the two are equivalent? I'm sorry, but it looks to me that the only purpose this page serves is as ammunition for political attacks - NOT as an encyclopedic reference. I know we usually go by the standard of "it needs an outside source to be on wikipedia," but this time, come on guys... there has to be a better source than lies given to the UN. How can we display this low-quality information with a straight face?75.43.152.147 (talk) 00:32, 13 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but articles on Wikipedia aren't updated just because the sourced data doesn't meet some editors' expectations. You are welcome to propose better reliable sources that could be used here instead of the UNODC. Vgbyp (talk) 07:07, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
 * look me in the eye and tell me it meets even your own expectations 75.43.152.147 (talk) 04:57, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I have been editing the article for years, and the numbers put out by UNODC are mostly accurate. They list their sources. And you can go to their sources and see the data. Most sources are from governments. Not all sources are necessarily trustworthy. For more info go to the country links for info on crime, murder rates, extrajudicial killings, etc.. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:16, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I also question the reliability of these stats, which indicate for example that Syria has a lower homicide rate than Canada. I think the table is generally misleading. 198.98.114.204 (talk) 11:03, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Comparing statistics between countries is very difficult because of different legal definitions
UNDOC collects data for "intentional homicide". In most common-law countries, this would include murder and voluntary manslaughter. It does not include. eg involuntary manslaughter/negligent homicide, Assault Causing Death, and other similar offenses that result in death where death was not intended. Different countries have their own definitions. The idea is that UNDOC has data on intentional homicide, but the legal meaning of intention in criminal law, both as it relates to homicide law, and in general, varies between countries and even between different jurisdictions of the same country. To give you an example, the definition of murder in English law is "the unlawful killing of any person with an intention to kill or to cause grievous bodily harm to that person",, whereas the definition of murder in Scots law is "a wilful act causing the destruction of life, whether wickedly intended to kill, or displaying such wicked recklessness as to imply a disposition depraved enough to be regardless of consequences." Something that is classed as intentional homicide in one jurisdiction, may not be classed as such in another jurisdiction (and this does not even take into account legal justifications. eg self defense, which also vary by legal system in their definitions and applicability). And of course, there are other issues, such as plea bargain, where someone who has killed pleads guilty to a lesser offense of unintentional homicide. (Truthful reporting of crimes by governments is obviously also a relevant issue, but this is more often discussed).

The article briefly addresses this issue stating that: "Though some discrepancies exist in how specific categories of intentional killings are classified, the definitions used by countries to record data are generally close to the UNODC definition", but I think this has to be addressed more in detail. Even international legally binding conventions, such as the Istanbul Convention, that require countries which ratify it to criminalize various intentional acts, leave it up to each country to define "intention"; just read the explanatory report of the convention, which says in several places that "The interpretation of the word “intentionally” is left to domestic law". 2A02:2F0F:B110:B500:B1D2:35C6:5E14:6D5E (talk) 22:17, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

United Kingdom
In the table showing rates and numbers of murders per country the sum of the numbers of homicides for the component parts of the UK (Northern Ireland - 21, Scotland - 58 and England & Wales 696) is 775 but the total for the UK is showing as 673 and so the rate per 100,000 for the UK is 1.0 while the component parts all have higher rates - 1.2 for England & Wales and 1.1 for Northern Ireland and also Scotland. 82.34.151.31 (talk) 23:55, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * The years are different. Vgbyp (talk) 08:18, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Taiwan
Shouldn't there be an entry for Taiwan ? 184.171.141.56 (talk) 01:58, 3 December 2023 (UTC)


 * . I don't see Taiwan or mainland China here:
 * https://dataunodc.un.org/dp-intentional-homicide-victims
 * Where did you get the China numbers? --Timeshifter (talk) 06:49, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * There is data for China in the downloadable Dataset. I don't know why they don't include it into the web form. There is no mention of Taiwan in the Dataset though. Vgbyp (talk) 10:20, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Column order and small screens
On my little phone, I can see 5 out of 7 columns of the table without scrolling to the left, which sadly shoves off the main topic of the article (homicide rate). And even on a large screen, a skinny table is easier to read than a fat table. The most important columns in the table are the Country and the Rate. It may be worth considering how the columns could be re-arranged in order to get the Country and Rate closer together. Certainly, the Year column could be moved all the way over to the right.

I would also suggest that the Region and Subregion columns are the least important, and maybe one or both of them are unnecessary.

Consider a rather different table to the current one:

Perhaps this is too much of a change for some, but please consider each of the suggestions separately. Wizmut (talk) 23:51, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Some good ideas. I put columns of most importance to the left.
 * From above the table: "When the regions or subregions are sorted the countries are also alphabetically sorted within those regions or subregions. Then shift-click rates or counts to secondarily sort countries by rates or counts within the regions or subregions previously sorted."
 * So it is good to keep those columns. --Timeshifter (talk) 00:02, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Good point, was not aware of that function.
 * And thank you for the quick change! Wizmut (talk) 00:03, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

2022 numbers are available. Need full table update
and others. I don't know if I have the energy, health, and time to do this. See the help subpages linked from the top of this talk page.

See the first reference link. From that page there is a dataset link to download all the data.

See the visual editor section of Help:Creating tables for how-to info on creating a wiki table from a spreadsheet. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:25, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Just so others know, has updated the numbers to the latest available year. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:59, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
 * I updated the link (above) for help. Here is the current link:
 * Help:Creating tables. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:50, 2 April 2024 (UTC)

Several countries missing
Data for several countries is missing from both (the current version of) this table and from the UNODC source. This data was previously available in the article's table, but was removed on 2021-11-02. Old tables with the now-missing data can be viewed. Missing countries include Chad, Comoros, both Republics of the Congo, Côte d'Ivoire, Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Gambia, Guinea, North Korea, Laos, Libya, Madagascar, Mali, Mauritania, F.S.Micronesia, Nauru, Somalia, Togo, Vanuatu, and Zimbabwe. Does anyone know why this data is missing from UNODC? Should we use the pre-2021-11-02 data anyway? Lebonk (talk) 05:56, 1 April 2024 (UTC)
 * You added Djibouti to the article. I noticed that Djibouti is missing from the main UNODC source page with the tables and menus. But it is found in the UNODC downloadable dataset.
 * Creating a table with the latest available year from a dataset is not easy. See the talk subpages with instructions. They are linked at the top of the subpages. They need to be updated. I have not had the time, health, or energy to figure it out very far. Feel free to do so. If you do, please overwrite the instructions, or start another instruction subpage. It would help with many list articles. To be useful it has to be detailed without skipping any steps.
 * Feel free to add countries if you can find the data in one of the UNODC sources. Please mention in your edit summary which UNODC source: Tables or dataset. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:44, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Denmark vs Denmark
As a Dane I have to admit I find it a bit misleading that the number of homicides in the row labeled "Denmark" is taken from UNODC, as it only provides the number of homicides in the *kingdom* of Denmark; not the *country* of Denmark.

Just as an example (and to maybe put things in perspective): in 2022 there were 58 homicides in the *kingdom* of Denmark, as correctly noted in the table. However, "only" 39 of them were actually committed in the *country* of Denmark, which means that *19* (*32.76%*) of them were committed outside the country.

Is this fair? Are homicides committed in Puerto Rico, for example, also included in the row labled "United States"? 194.62.169.4 (talk) 17:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't read Danish. So I couldn't figure out the Danish source. The UNODC source you linked to just says "Denmark". So I am assuming that you are getting your numbers from the Danish source as concerns the kingdom of Denmark.
 * Greenland is in the table here, and only had 3 homicides for the latest year (2016) that UNODC has.
 * Faroe Islands is not listed separately at that UNODC link, or in the table here.
 * Maybe you can dig around the UNODC site to find out if they specifically say whether their numbers cover all of the kingdom or just metropolitan Denmark. Then we can link to that UNODC page, and add a note below the table. With a link from within the table.
 * I don't have the time. So you or someone else will have to at least do the research. --Timeshifter (talk) 22:24, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

2023 data from UNODC has been added to the table
See diff.

. Thanks! Did you use Excel again? If so can you update and clarify the instructions at Talk:List of countries by intentional homicide rate/Excel instructions.

It would be nice to know how to do it simply in LibreOffice Calc too. See:
 * Talk:List of countries by intentional homicide rate/LibreOffice Calc instructions

It is currently way too complex. So complex I can't figure it out from the old forum thread. If I could find a simpler way with LibreOffice I could use it on many state and country tables.

I am understanding more and more of what you wrote in the Excel instructions. And I think I can apply them to Calc. I will need to experiment further.

In your Excel instructions you said you manually compared the results to the article table: "It is then trivial to compare the existing Wikipedia table to the UNODC table. It cannot automatically generate the entire table, but when there are just a few changes to the data, it is a simple and rather fast approach."

One thing I have figured out is this: Does this help you? --Timeshifter (talk) 00:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Help:Tables and locations.

Djibouti has no data on UNODC site
Its most recent data that I can find is 6.8/100,000 in 2015: https://www.ceicdata.com/en/djibouti/health-statistics/dj-intentional-homicides-per-100000-people

Countries with no data in ODC should be marked as such, not listed as 'zero'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Copperknickers (talk • contribs) June 5, 2024 (UTC)
 * . Djibouti is missing from the main UNODC source page with the tables and menus. But it is found in the UNODC downloadable dataset according to a previous talk section. I don't know the year or rate. Please look it up in the dataset. LibreOffice Calc is free software for spreadsheets. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:00, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Table fully updated from dataset retrieved June 24, 2024
Table has been fully updated. Including some country name clarifications, and some manual alphabetizing. See the last sections of the instructions: Instructions are much simpler now. --Timeshifter (talk) 11:00, 2 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Talk:List of countries by intentional homicide rate/LibreOffice Calc instructions