Talk:List of countries by southernmost point

Comments
Should we add the southernmost point on the mainland for countries such as Norway and the UK? Currently, the inclusion of Antarctic territories makes this list somewhat misleading. Ygoloxelfer 19:31, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Good question is what these areas count as. Bouvetoya and Dronning Maud Land is according to Norwegian law counted not as a part of Norway, but as a possesion, a foreign area they own. -- BIL 20:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
 * What I mean is that it would be helpful to have the southernmost point on the mainland listed as well, in its own position. As it stands, people comparing the pages for northernmost and southernmost points may get the impression that thesse countries stretch across most of the globe, which they obviously do not. We could still use the current coordinates as, for example, the southernmost point under British/Norwegian/etc. administration, but not have these ranked like those of other countries, instead using the southernmost point on the mainland or nearby islands (e.g. the Scilly Isles could be used for the UK). Ygoloxelfer 16:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Numbering and Western Sahara
Why? Western Sahara is numbered on several of these lists (e.g. List of countries by northernmost point), so why not here? The justification given in the edit summary for removing it is that Western Sahara is not a country; in point of fact, it is. Is there any reason it counts in the north, but not the south? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 18:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It should be corrected there also.--A Jalil 19:17, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Corrected? It is correct. In point of fact, why would some of these be numbered and others not in the first place? That is really only confusing to users as is. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 19:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * In compiling this list only member states of the United Nations were numbered (including the Holy See). Without a solid criterion for which countries to include all number of other countries, some more generally accepted than others, could creep in. The list of countries in the UN seems to me a good choice due to its general wide acceptance. Perhaps the explanatory paragraph at the start of the list should be made clearer. -Retyef 22:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Southernmost? This is a good idea, although careful examination of the official statuses of these territories should be made before carrying out such changes. eg the Canary Islands are officially no different from any other region of Spain. Another possibility would be to include the southernmost point on the main landmass making up the country, over which there should be fewer discrepancies. Retyef 22:56, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Dependent territories
A selection of dependent territories are listed in italics and are not ranked. This makes sense when listing Antartica and other territories that have geographical significance. It is not a welcome mat to all the disputed territories in the world. -- Gabi S. 09:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * So why have you just deleted the entries for Palestine? Northern Cyprus, Western Sahara, and Taiwan are just as contentious! I think all out. Possibly even the Vatican. ie only members of the UN should remain. Any advances?

-- Retyef 00:35 18/08/2007


 * Why are dependent territories "listed in italics and not ranked"? They are an integral part of the country which is sovereign on the territory. This is different from disputed territories where we cannot define sovereignty of the land. But to leave dependent territories separate from their countries and unranked would be to draw ourselves into an endless argument about the countless political statuses of different territories. How is American Samoa part of the USA and Kerguelen part of France (both of which I agree with), but the South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands not considered part of the UK? Kraikk 14:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Portugal
The southernmost region of Portugal are the Savage Islands (Ilhas Selvagens) not the Desertas. --viriatus (talk) 00:02, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

United Kingdom
I think the U.K. should not be the southernmost country, because the Thule Island (South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands) is a dependence, like Greenland (see here). I think Chile should be in first place, because is the southernmost independent country. 22:58, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. Opera hat (talk) 10:50, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, it's a British Overseas Territory – legally not part of the UK. Similarly, the French Antarctic Lands aren't properly part of France, although the overseas departments are, IIRC. Finlay (talk) 21:58, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The UK is not the only problem in here, same goes for Norway, France, the USA, and the Netherlands. I understand why the given coordinates should stay, but the southernmost points of the "real territories" should be included aswell. H2ppyme (talk) 11:33, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The article should make distinction between territories, and other areas of soveregnity.

United States of America
Talk:Palmyra Atoll discusses Southernmost Point in the United States of America as follows:

"Would the Palmyra Atoll contain the southernmost point within the USA proper? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.221.129.63 (talk) 10:52, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
 * No, Palmyra is located in the northern hemisphere at about 5 degrees north latitude. Perhaps you're thinking of Rose Atoll.  Rose Atoll's latitude is 14 degrees 30 minutes south, or over 1,000 miles further south than Palmyra, so Rose Atoll would be the southernmost part of the USA. –Newportm (talk • contribs) 19:47, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Rose Atoll (like nearby American Samoa) was never "incorporated" into the United States of America, so it's not technically in the United States, so it's not technically the southernmost point "within the USA proper." Rose Atoll only "appertains to" the USA as an unincorporated territory (small "t"), not an incorporated Territory (capital "T") with full rights under the American Constitution.  The distinction was made in the U.S. Supreme Court case of Downes v. Bidwell after the Spanish American War left the USA with several new territorial possessions, which were deemed by the court to be "unincorporated" rather than actual parts of the body or "corpus" of the country.  After the Republic of Hawaii including Palmyra was annexed by the USA it all became an incorporated Territory  -- PART of the USA  (by Act of Congress, April 30, 1900, ch. 339, Sections 4 and 5.).  In 1959, most of the federal Territory of Hawaii, deliberately excluding Palmyra, became an American state, leaving only the tiny, distant remnant of the federal Territory as the U. S. Territory of Palmyra Island, America's only remaining incorporated Territory now.  Although not in any American state, Palmyra is in the USA as much as the District of Columbia is.  Therefore, Palmyra Atoll is technically the southernmost place "in" the United States.    Also, the private island on the south side of the Palmyra lagoon is apparently the southernmost private land in the USA.2602:306:3769:8850:58DD:2B42:943A:B53D (talk) 08:50, 22 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Based on examining maps: The southernmost point of the USA (excluding unincorporated territories) is currently (since 2014) the south shore of Holei Island in the incorporated Territory of Palmyra Island, at 5 degrees, 52 minutes, 15 seconds North latitude. It is government owned except for property rights of the Fullard-Leo family (to buried treasure) and three native Hawaiian families.  Before 2014, Dadu Island, a tiny treeless islet southeast of Barren Island,  extended further south to 5 degrees 52'10"N so it was then the southernmost point of the USA, but it was washed away in 2014 (see historic aerials in Google Earth; it was named after a dog that lived on Palmyra).  The southernmost private land in the USA is Home Island extending south to 5 degrees 52'20"N.99.118.152.133 (talk) 11:47, 30 March 2017 (UTC) "   99.118.152.133 (talk) 06:22, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

If so, The United States is in the wrong position in the list (after Malawi, No. 27 and before Samoa, presently No. 28) based merely on the U.S. government’s control of Rose Atoll, if Rose Atoll is not legally in the United States any more than the Amundsen-Scott Station at the South Pole is. The unincorporated/incorporated distinction evidently determines what territory is legally a part of the country. So, the United States should be listed after Thailand (presently No. 72) and before Sri Lanka (No. 73), and all countries on the list between Samoa and Thailand (inclusive) should be re-numbered, based on the fact that the southernmost point of the "incorporated" Palmyra Atoll (assuming it is indeed a location at 5° 52' 15" N) is legally the southernmost point in the United States (not Rose Atoll or Amundsen-Scott Station). Is this list still hand-edited or is there a bot now that maintains the ordering and numbering?  (In the Wp article List of extreme points of the United States, Palmyra Atoll lacks coordinates.)76.77.140.189 (talk) 08:18, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

194 or 195 countries?
194 (numbered) countries are listed here, while the List of countries by northernmost point has 195 (numbered) countries. The missing one should be added.Antipoeten (talk) 04:06, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Western Sahara is numbered in the “Northernmost” list, but here it is not. I don’t know which is right, but one of those should be changed. Ae jarv (talk) 01:03, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

New Discussion
A discussion has been started at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries/Lists of countries which could affect the inclusion criteria and title of this and other lists of countries. Editors are invited to participate. Pfainuk talk 11:40, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Belgium, Luxembourg southernmost points
Why is it "Luxembourg" ? Looking in google map it seems "Torgny", at 49.496868 N, 5.470333 E. Could it be possible to correct it ? For Luxembourg the data appears absurd. In google map I see Rumelange at 49.447921 N 6.032181 E. Wentu (talk) 18:09, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Please do not misuse the word "mainland"
Please do not misuse the word "mainland". For example, the United Kingdom does not have any mainland because it is all on islands. The mainland of something has to be on a continent.
 * You have problems with these countries: the United States, Norway, New Zealand, Australia, and France. You need to list the main body of all of these country. Note the following situations:
 * Hawaii is part of the main body of the United States because it is a State.
 * In contrast, the main body of the United States does not include American Samoa, Guam, the Virgin Islands, etc.
 * Tasmania is part of the main body of Australia because it is a State.
 * In contrast, places like Norfolk Island are semi-autonomous.
 * Stewart Island is part of the main body of New Zealand because of its closeness to the South Island and the way that Stewart Island is governed.
 * Svalbard, Bouvet Island, Jan Mayen, Bear Island, etc., are not part of the main body of Norway. Also, most of these islands are uninhabited.
 * Metropolitan France is of great interest to many people, and we call it "France", despite what the French Republic says. We do not include places like French Guinea, New Caledonia, Reunion, Tahiti, the Kerguelen Islands, etc., as being "France". Face up to it French Republic!

In contrast, your listing for the United Kingdom, does not include its southern extensions on St. Helena, Ascension Island, the Falkland Islands, Christmas Island, Pitcairn Island, etc. Then you can list separately all of the outlying possessions of the countries, no matter what their legal status is -- and cut out the convolutions about whether they really "belong to" or not. Have you ever heard of cutting the Gordian knot? 98.67.96.230 (talk) 02:47, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The main body of the United Kingdom is formed by its four constituent countries: England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The Crown Dependencies (The Channel Islands and Isle of Man) and the British overseas territories (St. Helena, Ascension Island, Christmas Island, etc.) are not considered part of the UK. The Isle of Wight forms part of the UK because it is part of England, one of the constituent countries. The same goes for Anglesey in Wales or the Hebrides, Orkney and Shetland Islands in Scotland. They form part of the UK because they are in one of its constituent countries. But the Crown Dependencies and the overseas territories are not part of any of the constituent countries, so they do not form part of the United Kingdom. Patriotadoseculo (talk) 11:46, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Bouvet Island
If Bouvet Island isn't legally part of Norway, shouldn't it be listed on its own like the Falkland Islands? Otherwise it's left out as one of the southernmost places in the world. Sowelilitokiemu (talk) 02:57, 12 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Also Pitcairn and Saint Helena, Ascension and Tristan da Cunha. Sowelilitokiemu (talk) 17:54, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

Uganda southernmost point
Just wanted to point out that it says Uganda's southernmost point is the border with Tanzania, but it is actually the border with Rwanda. TurkeyCookTime (talk) 00:45, 7 March 2021 (UTC)