Talk:List of current state leaders by date of assumption of office/Archive 5

Rfc: How shall Elizabeth II be presented?
Shall we....
 * A) Keep the status quo?
 * B) Change the entry criteria to sovereign state assumption of office date & give Elizabeth II & her realms (4 original states, together & the 12 others in required sections) different entries in the article?
 * C) Maintain current entry criteria that allows assumption of office date pre-sovereign state & change Elizabeth II's entry to United Kingdom and Flag with footnote for her 15 other states?
 * D) Redirect the article to another article?
 * E) Maintain current entry criteria that allows the assumption of an office before a state's independence and add allowance of the assumption of an office created upon a state attaining independence. For Elizabeth II: UK, Canada, Australia, NZ stay as now; remaining 12 realms redistributed throughout whole list according to date of independence/creation of office of head of state.
 * F) Sorry to add lately an option: with dates added in the list for each new independent state for Elizabeth II instead of footnotes. Wykx  (talk) 23:45, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Survey

 * I find that Options C, B or D are acceptable options in that preference order. GoodDay (talk) 02:08, 10 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Option E I really don't understand why we can't have the list acknowledge assumption of an office before the independence of the state the office is related to and acknowledge the assumption of an office that was created at the independence of a state. There would be two 'unique' situations: same person, same office before and after independence (Brunei, Kazakhstan) and same person, different offices before and after independence (12 Commonwealth realms that became independent after EIIR's accession). For those 12 realms, a note--either a footnote or somewhere in the list itself--can explain that EIIR reigned over that territory as Queen of the UK or Queen of Australia from 1952 to [year].
 * Otherwise, support Option A. Oppose B, per Dralwik. Strongly oppose Option C.-- ₪   MIESIANIACAL  02:34, 10 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment: Option B is unclear. -- ₪   MIESIANIACAL  03:28, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * In B, the 12 other realms are spread out into sections via their independence dates, with the criteria being changed to sovereign state assumption dates only. GoodDay (talk) 03:31, 10 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Further clarificaton: Jamaica & Barbados would (for example) be in the same section (pre-1970) as UK/Can/Aus/NZ. But in each their own rowspan. See? :) GoodDay (talk) 03:40, 10 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Option B or C  Not really a fan of other proposals. --Killuminator (talk) 03:06, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Option B or D. I think these are the only ones which can be easily explained to readers. Pburka (talk) 03:35, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Option E (mildly). Strongly oppose B, which would be practically the same as D, since B would make this page identical to List of heads of state by diplomatic precedence except with heads of government included. Struck since I do not like splitting up Elizabeth's reign and scattering her throughout the first few tables. I would rather have her remain contiguous, as her reign is uninterrupted since 1952, just changes in title. However my opposition to E is weaker than to B. 'Dralwi'k'''&#124;Have a Chat 04:16, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Changed to Option F. Dralwik&#124;Have a Chat 00:06, 14 February 2016 (UTC)


 * I prefer Options E, B, C, then A in that order. – Jwkozak91 (talk) 05:30, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I prefer Options F, E, B, C, then A in that order. – Jwkozak91 (talk) 01:12, 14 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Option C now that I look at the samples presented below. (Many thanks, Dralwik!) The presentation for Elizabeth II matches those of other leaders, it is clear and elegant. This article is just a list of leaders, not the compendium of every fact in the world on one page. --Pete (talk) 06:07, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * It is, of course, a list of leaders, the offices they hold, and the dates they assumed those offices. The list of leaders is at List of current heads of state and government. -- ₪   MIESIANIACAL  15:14, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Mies! Perhaps the problem lies in the title of the srticle, then? If we changed the title to your version, then there would be a closer concurrence. At the moment, the title is "List of current state leaders by date of assumption of office", which is somewhat different. --Pete (talk) 17:01, 10 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Indeed Skyring, this is why option C is my first choice. Also, it adheres to WP:WEIGHT, as a vast majority of sources back United Kingdom as the realm most associated with Elizabeth II. GoodDay (talk) 15:42, 10 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment - I think that the big questions in all of this is When does one assume an office? Independence day or before independence day? Indeed, can an office exist before the respective country's independence? IMHO, if we can get a consensus on this item, the rest will fall in line. GoodDay (talk) 16:14, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Seeing how the article lists heads of state, we should use the statehood criteria and count the rule from independence but also add some remarks that these certain individuals held power in some capacity before their state achieved statehood. --Killuminator (talk) 00:05, 15 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Option F which I just added (else A) as it doesn't duplicate Elizabeth II and list recognized positions taken previously to independence. Strongly oppose C which doesn't contents all sovereign states. If you want to support this option, don't hesitate to revise your support. Wykx  (talk) 23:45, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment, in the multiple country options of the Commonwealt realms, the United Kingdom should be listed first, regardless of alphabetical order. The UK is unique among the realms, as it has no governor general, Elizabeth II was born there, lives there & will likely be buried there . Anyways just a tweak suggestion for those options. GoodDay (talk) 23:21, 14 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Not before Australia, because this list is in alphabetical order of countries regardless of the importance of state leading position (see for example 9 January 2015 with a Prime Minister of Mali before a President of Sri Lanka). Wykx  (talk) 06:52, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The list can be alphabetical or it can be according to Commonwealth protocol, which orders the realms first with the UK, then the date each originally became a Dominion, and then by date of independence. I tend to favour the latter as it addresses the concerns of the "the UK must be given special treatment" crowd (even if not for the reason they want it to have special treatment). They don't seem to ever appreciate it, though. -- ₪   MIESIANIACAL  19:07, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Options
To try and visualize what each proposal is, here is each option, formatted. Let me know if I've misunderstood something Dralwik&#124;Have a Chat 03:51, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

B
(Note that several other rulers, like the Sultan of Brunei, are re-dated.)

E
(No one else is re-dated)

1980s

 * Unfortunately, that doesn't reflect Option E. The 12 realms that became independent after 1952 should go throughout the list in chronological order of independence. E is basically the same as B, except no change to the list's present criteria for inclusion. -- ₪   MIESIANIACAL  04:14, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Alright, how is this? Dralwik&#124;Have a Chat 04:18, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's got it. -- ₪   MIESIANIACAL  04:25, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The way you had it could be an option F. Though, that may just make matters more complicated. -- ₪   MIESIANIACAL  05:02, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
 * We've got enough choices as it is, so I'll leave it for now. Dralwik&#124;Have a Chat 19:48, 10 February 2016 (UTC)

F
(Dates added in the descriptive text for Elizabeth II)


 * {|class="wikitable" style="font-size: 90%;"

!width=115|Assumed Office !width=250|Leader !width=215|State !width=410|Office
 * -bgcolor="#cccccc"
 * 9 June 1946
 * Bhumibol Adulyadej
 * 🇹🇭 Thailand
 * King
 * rowspan="16" |6 February 1952
 * rowspan="16" |Elizabeth II
 * 🇦🇬 Antigua and Barbuda
 * Queen: 1 November 1981 - present
 * 🇦🇺 Australia
 * Queen
 * 🇧🇸 Bahamas
 * Queen: 10 July 1973 - present
 * 🇧🇧 Barbados
 * Queen: 30 November 1966 - present
 * 🇧🇿 Belize
 * Queen: 21 September 1981 - present
 * 🇨🇦 Canada
 * Queen
 * 🇬🇩 Grenada
 * Queen: 7 February 1974 - present
 * 🇯🇲 Jamaica
 * Queen: 6 August 1962 - present
 * 🇳🇿 New Zealand
 * Queen
 * 🇵🇬 Papua New Guinea
 * Queen: 16 September 1975 - present
 * 🇰🇳 Saint Kitts and Nevis
 * Queen: 19 September 1983 - present
 * 🇱🇨 Saint Lucia
 * Queen: 22 February 1979 - present
 * 🇻🇨 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
 * Queen: 27 October 1979 - present
 * 🇸🇧 Solomon Islands
 * Queen: 7 July 1978 - present
 * 🇹🇻 Tuvalu
 * Queen: 1 October 1978 - present
 * 🇬🇧 United Kingdom
 * Queen
 * 4 October 1967
 * Hassanal Bolkiah
 * Brunei
 * Sultan: 4 October 1967 – present Prime Minister: 1 January 1984 – present
 * }
 * 🇻🇨 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines
 * Queen: 27 October 1979 - present
 * 🇸🇧 Solomon Islands
 * Queen: 7 July 1978 - present
 * 🇹🇻 Tuvalu
 * Queen: 1 October 1978 - present
 * 🇬🇧 United Kingdom
 * Queen
 * 4 October 1967
 * Hassanal Bolkiah
 * Brunei
 * Sultan: 4 October 1967 – present Prime Minister: 1 January 1984 – present
 * }
 * 4 October 1967
 * Hassanal Bolkiah
 * Brunei
 * Sultan: 4 October 1967 – present Prime Minister: 1 January 1984 – present
 * }

Discussion
From what I've seen so far, Options B,C & F (in no particular order) appear to be the top 3 preferences. Does this seem right to you all? If so, then we can concentrate on those 3 options. GoodDay (talk) 22:09, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * OK for me to concentrate on those ones. Wykx  (talk) 22:39, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes let's do a vote with those three. --Killuminator (talk) 23:26, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Btw, are we all in agreement that the article will maintain the pre/post independence date criteria? GoodDay (talk) 15:44, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Option F since that preserves the continuity of Elizabeth's reign while making explicit her changes in title. Strong opposition to B which turns this list into a copy of List of heads of state by diplomatic precedence with heads of government included. Dralwik&#124;Have a Chat 02:00, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Option F for same reasons. Wykx  (talk) 07:01, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Option C is still my first choice. However, I'll go along with what the majority here prefers, among options C, B & F. Just waiting for the rest to chime in 'here', as it doesn't appear as though anymore folks are gonna chime in at the 'survey' :) GoodDay (talk) 14:16, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Option C with F as an alternative vote if it comes to a tie. --Killuminator (talk) 14:19, 16 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Option E, then F, then A. Strongly oppose C; oppose B. -- ₪   MIESIANIACAL  15:37, 16 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Option F, strongly oppose C, oppose B and E. I firmly support continuous tenure taking precedence over date of independence (as it better reflects reality), but I feel this isn't really applicable to the relationship between the Queen and pre-independence Commonwealth realms, because she was the leader of the "possessor", not the "possession". To offer an analogy, if upon the breakup of the Soviet Union Gorbachev had become President of Kyrgyzstan, I don't think it would have been reasonable to treat his two tenures as continuous (because as Soviet leader he had no more special connection with Kyrgyzstan than with the other republics). On the other hand, Nazarbayev has clearly been the leader of Kazakhstan whether inside the Soviet Union, or outside it (the same stands - mutatis mutandis - for Brunei, Eritrea, Oman, South Sudan, Montenegro, Bahrain and Uzbekistan). As far as display of country name and flag is concerned, in line with sovereign equality the UK's and Tuvalu's choice of head of state should be respected equally (Tuvalu could just as well have opted for some other head of state upon independence, as neighbouring Kiribati did). But as an indication of being one person, I'd rather see one box for Elizabeth II (with all her realms listed with their respective dates), than ten-something different entries for the same person, as the latter might lead to confusion (as you might recall, recently there were two Albert II's reigning in Europe concurrently, and two King Abdullahs in the Middle East). ZBukov (talk) 22:54, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment - Is there anyone else going to chime in with their preferences? GoodDay (talk) 01:47, 18 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment - It appears as though F is the favoured. Shall we close this Rfc & adopt F for this article? or continue on with the Rfc? GoodDay (talk) 18:48, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
 * For me it's ok but wait maybe MIESIANIACAL's answer as he was slightly favoring E. Wykx  (talk) 19:06, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I do favour E. But, if the consensus is behind F and it was my second choice, I couldn`t raise much objection if F were implemented. -- ₪   MIESIANIACAL  22:29, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment - If it's alright with everyone, I'll give it another 24-hrs & then if there's no strong objections? I'll ask for closure of the Rfc, based on a consensus reached for option F. PS- as this article is partially about the offices/positions (see article title) & not primarily the individuals? The F option is acceptable. GoodDay (talk) 22:35, 18 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment - PS - A tweak request. In option F, may we have the order as UK, Can, Aus, NZ & the rest in order of their becoming commonwealth realms? This would go along better, with the other leaders/state entries, which also are in chronological order. GoodDay (talk) 06:45, 19 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Strongly support the above suggestion of ordering Commonwealth realms chonologically. That fits the logic of the article perfectly. ZBukov (talk) 09:21, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I would say AUS, CAN, NZ, UK (like for François Hollande where Andorra is before France by alphabetical order for the same date) and then the rest chronologically. Wykx  (talk) 10:21, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I would rather put the UK at the top of the list, as it's still the Canadian (Australian, etc) state "using" the British monarch for head of state, not the other way round. And Canada, Australia and New Zealand became dominions in this order (and then the rest gained independence after the Queen acceeded to the throne). ZBukov (talk) 12:40, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Alphabetical order applies unless there is a clear reason (Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)). I wouldn't say "using the British monarch" is a clear reason. The British Monarch was the HoS of Australia since 6 February 1952. Wykx  (talk) 12:54, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * And the fact that it's not the Australian monarch who is the HoS of the UK, but the other way round, is a clear enough reason for me. So probably our opinions differ on that point. ZBukov (talk) 13:29, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * It's the same with France and Andorra: it's the French president who is co-prince of Andorra. It doesn't change that from a technical point of view, both happen at the same second. Wykx  (talk) 13:36, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * A possible tie-breaker, is that the United Kingdom has been oldest sovereign state. Followed by Canada, then Australia, then New Zealand, etc etc. GoodDay (talk) 13:51, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The whole list is alphabetical like many geographical lists. Why do you want to complicate? Wykx  (talk) 14:37, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The entire article isn't by alphabetical order, but by chronological order. For the moment, it appears strange in option F, having the Jamaica, Bermuda etc etc, with their commonweal realm dates not being longest to shortest. GoodDay (talk) 14:39, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I mean by alphabetical order for two states with the same date of office taking. For example: Kosovo before Niger on 7 April 2011, germany before Tonga on 18 March 2012, Andorra before France on 15 May 2012, Montenegro before Namibia on 4 December 2012, Djibouti before North Korea on 1 April 2013, Chile before Libya on 11 March 2014, Iraq before Israel on 24 July 2014, etc. Here, alphabetical order should apply only for AUS, CAN, NZ, UK. and then chronological orders for later additions (as for Brunei). Wykx  (talk) 14:57, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * But UK, CAN, AUS & NZ are under the same individual (Elizabeth II) & therefore it's alright for us to put them in order of oldest to youngest independent state, while the other 12 are put in order of their commonwealth realm' reign lengths. GoodDay (talk) 15:01, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * This article is not ranking states by dates of independence. This article is about current state leaders by date of assumption of offices. The date of independences past to office taking are irrelevant. Wykx  (talk) 15:08, 19 February 2016 (UTC)

Well, I disagree with you, but it's a minor dispute. Anyways, it appears that we've got a consensus for Option F. I'll request closure of this Rfc on that basis. Whoever knows how to implement the change? go for it :) GoodDay (talk) 22:42, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Apart from the incorrect assertions about the British monarch reigning in Australia, Canada, etc., the order of the realms can either be alphabetical or it can follow Commonwealth protocol which puts the UK (oldest country) first, followed by the chronological order of the dates the countries became Dominions (Canada, Australia, New Zealand), followed by order of date of independence (Jamaica, Barbados, the Bahamas, Grenada, Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Belize, Antigua and Barbuda, and Saint Kitts and Nevis). -- ₪   MIESIANIACAL  23:05, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I've made the closure request. Any other tweaks can be haggled over, after implementation of option F. :) GoodDay (talk) 23:07, 19 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Use a minimalized display, with a footnote, per my more detailed comments at nearly-the-same previous RfC at Talk:List of the oldest living state leaders.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  20:57, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

In conclusion
It took us just 7 days (15 days, including pre-Rfc discussion), but we got it done. As the fellow who started this Rfc, I just wanna thank ya all for participating :) GoodDay (talk) 04:17, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks ;) We'll have to open a new one for the order inside or we can also continue the talk first in a new thread? Wykx  (talk) 09:02, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
 * A new thread would be best. I doubt another Rfc would be required. But if one is so required? someone else will have to open it. Another editor wants a moratorium placed on me, preventing me from opening up anymore Rfc on anything to do with how Elizabeth II should be displayed in any articles, in relation to the UK and the other Commonwealth realms. GoodDay (talk) 13:44, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Duplicate discussion
This is essentially a "re-legislation" of the exact same issue that was previously settled at Talk:List of the oldest living state leaders, and the same discussion could easily break out at various other lists of this sort. The matter should be centralized, and just had once, with consistent presentation across such lists (except one where a different jurisdiction-by-jurisdiction line item is needed, as at Current reigning monarchs by length of reign). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  20:57, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Though Charles will automatically be in this article, upon his accession to the British throne. It's comforting to know, he won't be on some of the other list articles ;) GoodDay (talk) 23:24, 23 February 2016 (UTC)