Talk:List of dialects of English/Archive 1

St Louis, USA
A few notes: there is much variance on what to call these languages, and in some cases I basically invented a name like St. Louis-area English. Someone who knows more about the subject should feel free to change it. In addition, I put the article here instead of at List of English dialects because I didn't want to imply it was only about dialects unique to England. Tuf-Kat 22:03, Oct 21, 2003 (UTC)


 * In regards to 'St. Louis-area English', I do not know if there is enough for a separate page, but there is a distinct vocabulary. For example, 'Hoosier' does not have the same proud meaning as in Indiana. American Heritage Dictionary (4th ed.) states:


 * 'The first recorded instance of Hoosier meaning “Indiana resident” is dated 1826; however, it seems possible that senses of the word recorded later in the Dictionary of Americanisms, including “a big, burly, uncouth specimen or individual; a frontiersman, countryman, rustic,” reflect the kind of use this word had before it settled down in Indiana. As a nickname, Hoosier was but one of a variety of disparaging terms for the inhabitants of particular states arising in the early 19th century.'


 * Is this the same in other regions of the US? Pædia | talk 16:48, 2004 Apr 30 (UTC)

Accents or dialects?
Most of these are accents, not dialects. It needs to be made much clearer. It's hard to even justify calling British English and American English different dialects. Daniel Quinlan 09:11, Oct 22, 2003 (UTC)


 * Actually, vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation distinguish some of these dialects. Pædia | talk 16:48, 2004 Apr 30 (UTC)


 * It would be best to title the article "List of English language dialects and accents" rather than attempt, OR-style, to decide which of these are dialects and which are accents.Haberstr (talk) 17:32, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

More Accents or dialects--topic needs rewrite
This topic needs a major overhaul. There is so much unsubstantiated opinion and private musings in this article about what editors *think* a dialect is, that incremental modification may be difficult, and some sections should just be thrown out and rewritten from scratch or just removed.

For example, I was going to strike this unsubstantiated sentence which appears near the top:

American linguists, however, include pronunciation differences as part of the definition of regional or social dialects

but I didn't, because the whole article below it, including section headings, is written in such a way as to support this, that just striking the sentence and leaving the rest would not improve the article much. (Accent may be a common attribute of a regional dialect, but accent and dialect are different things and should not be confused.)

This concept is so intertwined with the article that it would be hard to fix it by incremental change, some massive slash and burn is required. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, we simply can't just put our received wisdom (read, "unsubstantiated opinions") in here about what dialect is, as much as we all have passionate beliefs about it and love to stay up late at night shooting the breeze about it.

So be bold, create a new article as a stub hanging off your user page, point to it, and let's have a discussion. ("Okay, so, why don't you do that, big fella, instead of just criticizing?"  Cuz I just got laid off (made redundant) and will try to help as soon as feasible, but my priority isn't here right now.  I'll help as and when I can.) Mathglot (talk) 18:48, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Varieties not mentioned in this list
There are several possible varieties of or varieties influenced by English not mentioned in this text. They include: Sarcelles 20:45, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Samaná English
 * West African English
 * Black South African English
 * Afrikaans English
 * East African English
 * Seychellois English
 * Oceanian English
 * Solomonic Creole
 * Australian Creole
 * Torres Strait Creole
 * Tok Pisin
 * Bislama
 * Nauruan Creole
 * Hawaiian Creole
 * Pitcairnese
 * Norfuk
 * Krioo English
 * Aku
 * Sierra Leone Krio language
 * Bajan
 * Guyanese
 * Paramaccan
 * Liberian Inland Creole
 * Cameroonian Creole
 * Saramacca-Tongo
 * Tobagonian Creole
 * Grenadan Creole
 * Vincentian Creole
 * Cayman Creole
 * Ghenna Creole
 * Afro-Seminole Creole
 * Colón Creole
 * Rio Abajo Creole
 * San Andrés-Providencia Creole
 * Limón Coastal Creole
 * Miskito Coastal Creole
 * Bocas del Toro Creole
 * Anguillan Creole
 * Virgin Islands Creole
 * Turks-Caicos Creole
 * Saint Martin Creole
 * Saint Kitts Creole
 * Antiguan Creole
 * Montserrat Creole
 * Chinese Pidgin English
 * Pijin
 * Kroo-English is spelled different from I have written.

Sarcelles 14:51, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Creoles and pidgins
Actually, the standard definition of 'dialects' (in linguistics) is 'mutually-intelligible varieties of a language which differ systematically', so varieties with different accents are different dialects. This makes me wonder why Creoles are included when they are different languages (ie not mutually intelligible with any English variety), not varieties of English (even though English may be one of their 'parent' languages)--perhaps they should be moved to Creole_language?. And as for Pidgins, these are neither languages nor dialects, being limited communication sytems used for occasional inter-group communication (trade etc) and are no-one's first language: these should be put in Pidgin. - Dougg 01:37, 13 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Ah, but just to complicate matters, some people have taken a pidgin as a first language. Yes, technically it becomes a creole at that point, but try telling the speakers that. As far as the speaker is concerned, it's the language's name -- it's what they call it, it's what their parents called it etc. English didn't change its name when it went to America, Australia, South Africa etc etc.
 * Prof Wrong (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:02, 23 October 2008 (UTC).

Singlish doesn't seem to be a dialect. It's origins in multiple different languages like Tamil and Malay make it a pidgin, not a dialect. I'm going to change this, unless someone can bring in a source that says it's a dialect rather than a pidgin. Actually, all of the entries ending with "-lish" are creoles, so why are they even on this list? ForestAngel (talk) 14:34, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

"Patawa"
Is Patawa a different spelling of Patois? If so, it probably shouldn't be here... - 14:48, 11 January 2006 (UTC)The Great Gavini spricht mit mir


 * The correct orthography of "Patawa" is Patwa.
 * Nuttyskin 04:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

"Scottish English versus Scots"
I strongly object to the inclusion in this list of Scottish English as a British (Standard) English variant. It is no such thing: it has no independent existence as a living language, outside of the idiolect of a few unfortunates, mostly broadcasters. Whereas Scots is not mentioned at all on the main list and can only be reached from a link on the Scottish English page. It, by notable comparison, though rich in regional variant, is at least a vital and popular medium. Nuttyskin 04:28, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Can't agree with that. Scots is a literary language, related to but distinct from English, but one no longer widely spoken or indeed written. Scottish English is what is actually spoken by most Scots. It has a number of dialects - but then so do the other English variants listed.


 * Exile 14:30, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Exile,
 * Scots is still spoken by many people, although it is being increasingly affected by English (particularly Eastenders). Ah ken cos ah'm ay speaking it wi ma faither and the burd oan the door doun the stair fae the office.


 * Nuttyskin,
 * SSE is a genuine dialect. There are quite a few of us outwith (an SSE word) that use it professionally. Several of its grammatical features are borrowed from Scots: eg "It needs washed" (SSE) vs "it needs washing" (Standard English).


 * I use the term SSE because SE is generally used to stand for Standard English, ie South of England English. Scottish English can't be SE, so it's SSE (whatever you think of the idea of "Standard" language.
 * 158.234.10.144 (talk) 09:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Dialects
Many of the English dialects are variations in accent - not dialects. This needs to be amended.--Zleitzen 18:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Possibly true. Dialectical words have more or less died out in the last 100-150 years. We spend most of our lives communicating with people from throughout the world - so we use standard English with an accent.
 * I don't think that's even remotely true. Dialectical words may have reduced over that period, but they're very far from dead. Following various academic linguistic forums I find it fascinating how many words people use routinely that they /think/ are universal are actually regional. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Digitig (talk • contribs) 23:56, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Exile 14:32, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

New York Latino English
Can we put New York Latino English/Nueyorican English into the box/template for ERnglish dialects? AllPeopleUnite 04:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Jargon as a dialect?
I wonder at what point a speech pattern filled with slang and jargon becomes a distinct dialect or even a separate language altogether? I suspect that players of Magic: The Gathering are quickly developing their own language. For example:
 * I based my initial build on the Dredge deck from Frank Karsten's Online Tech column, just including Fa'adiyah Seer. I have wanted to play a Dredge deck that wins on Firemane Angel since my Guildpact Set Review for Blue, and this seemed like a good place for sideboarding Firemane Angel. I kept playing against other Dredge decks and, well, I was siding in Firemane Angel every time so I just cut Delirium Skeins to the side (you don't need Skeins if you have Seer). That is why the mana is so goofy. I actually think the Mountain is wrong, even though I kept wanting it when I didn't have it. The Plains are there to hard cast Angel of Despair. I think there is a lot of schizophrenia going on in this deck, but it wins a lot because Sindgood is so good.

I don't know what language that is, but I suspect it's not English. - CronoDAS 04:20, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Any close community has a jargon, including professions, large companies and gamesters, which those outside cannot understand. But the grammar and spelling and no doubt pronuciation of this quote are absolutely standard English. Keithuk 13:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

And more importantly, the MtG jargon relates purely to the activity of playing MtG -- they don't have different words for real-world concepts. I've only got a vague idea of what he's talking about, but there are no words that could be substituted in to make in instantly comprehensible without a knowledge of the game. (Even if "mana" was replaced by "magic"/"magic points", you'd still need to know the game to understand... Prof Wrong (talk) 19:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Foolish
Listing Dialects is foolish. Each of us speaks what could technically be called a "dialect." The list here would be as long as an all-inclusive phonebook of the U.S. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.254.141.246 (talk) 08:45, 15 May 2007 (UTC).

English in England
English in England is divided into regions here. It should be divided according to linguistics and not geography. Sarcelles 09:21, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Why is East Anglia included in the south?...norfolk is no more in the south than its in the north...surely it should fit under the midlands heading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.254.173.35 (talk) 12:52, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

UK /Ireland
This should be intagrated, as Scots is in Northern Ireland as well. Sarcelles (talk) 20:56, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The ordering of the list.
How are we supposed to read that list?

Looking at England, it looks like its going for a totally objective geographical ordering, but then we suddenly have Scotland and Northern Ireland lumped together as a list of varieties of Scots under British English (which I think is misleading as British English is a modern language and the split between Scots and English was made in the Early Middle Period). Where's SSE gone? It's SSE which is the "Scottish British English", and Scots is something much older and much more intrinsically Scottish.

Prof Wrong (talk) 19:41, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

U. S. /Canada
For linguistic reasons this should be merged. Sarcelles (talk) 16:39, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Should one of the systems of be used for this article? I recently have partly adapted the article to one of the maps. Sarcelles (talk) 15:54, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * might be state of the art. Sarcelles (talk) 09:08, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The most recent changes are unsourced. Sarcelles (talk) 07:13, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Native American English dialects. Are they?
I was a little surprised to see these listed here as "dialects" --  "Native American English (Amerindian English) - Mojave English - Isletan English - Tsimshian English - Lumbee English - Tohono O'odham English - Inupiaq English"  Are they dialects, or creoles? -- 201.37.229.117 (talk) 18:07, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The word Native American English should be removed.
 * Sarcelles (talk) 18:17, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm OK with Native American as a rough demographic grouping, but if there are such things as Native American Englishes, there will certainly not be genetic relationship between many of them beyond the shared heritage from English itself -- the Native Americans don't constitute a single discourse community (too spread out, historically little contact) and their original native languages are vastly different (well, there is a number of language families, but on the scale we're talking about here...)
 * I'm not familiar with the situation in North America, so I can't really comment on the legitimacy of the suggested languages, and as for the creole question -- well, isn't everything? (Even Latin could be considered a creole.)
 * For now, I've just changed the linked "American Indian English" to "American Indian Englishes" without a link (an article would be valueless, IMO, due to the unrelated nature of the proposed languages).
 * Prof Wrong (talk) 16:58, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This sonds as if a complete split would be better than the present situation. Sarcelles (talk) 17:17, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Maltenglish
Does this belong to the ,,lishes" ? Sarcelles (talk) 17:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Change to be made?
the list of dialects on this Canadian English page should match with this page —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.144.90.54 (talk) 03:32, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Hawaiian English ... link
TenIslands, why did you undo the linking on Hawaiian English? It seems perfectly normal practice to have one. Prof Wrong (talk) 14:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

What is the Texan language classified under????
What is the Texan language classified under? (Like how Bush talks.) "Nu-key-lerr wepuns" instead of the Standard English (Nuclear) "New-clear weapons" where's the article on how to speak Texan? The Texan language is also stereotyped by saying "Howdy Partner!". 68.160.52.89 (talk) 02:08, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Classification of Appalachian English
Some of the folks I spoke with about the classification of Appalachian English seemed to bristle a little bit at being considered a variety of Souther American English. In their speech, particularly the area from Saltville to Wytheville, the perfume of Philadelphia English--not by any means strong, but definitely a connection. It would make sense that the dialect might have come down the valleys from PA as travel along the valleys was easier than travel accross the valleys. Is anyone familiar with research that points this up? The folks I spoke with there kind of agreed, that it was distantly related to the Philly area speech, and only had some features of southern English because of areal contact. Any more info would be greatly appreciated. InFairness (talk) 11:32, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Merging England and Wales
Someone just tried to merge the lists for England and Wales.

I have reverted this, because there was no attempt to preserve or introduce any hierarchy or classification of these dialects.

In my experience, most Welsh speakers of English speak with Celtic features, some of which are common to all Welsh dialects, so Welsh English stands alone as a recognisable category. If there are some areas of Wales where the English is notably more like a dialect from England than most of the Welsh dialects (as the current text suggests of North-East Welsh English), then it may make sense to merge England and Wales and encode that information in the hierarchy. The last edit made no attempt to do so. Prof Wrong (talk) 11:48, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you think that the dialects in Wales are dissimilar enough be grouped separately?
 * There are major differences in England. Sarcelles (talk) 15:24, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This article isn't a rigourous genealogy of language -- as far as I can see most classification here is on purely geographical grounds. In terms of the degree of difference, I would say that a large number of Welsh people speak English in a way more distinct from English people than people I've known from the Isle of Man, Guernsey or Jersey, and each of these have their own entry.
 * If you're attempting to build a genealogical taxonomy, you'll need some citations. Even then, there will be plenty of opposing expert viewpoints -- there is no agreed "right answer" for this.
 * Geographical categorisation is both politically safest and more verifiable, and I'd argue for preserving that format.
 * Prof Wrong (talk) 16:25, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I suggest a merger not for historical but geographical reasons. Sarcelles (talk) 16:58, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The current hierarchy adequately reflects the borders of the constituent countries of the Union (with the exception of the (problematic) case of Northern Ireland) which is widely accepted as the first meaningful level at which to perform any geographical breakdown of the UK or Great Britain.
 * Prof Wrong (talk) 19:32, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Historical and/or extinct dialects?
One that comes to mind would be Wessex dialect, one of which is known to the great part of people due to the medieval "Sumer is icumen in" chant. Should these be left out? -andy 92.229.65.206 (talk) 05:50, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we're assuming "modern English" here, not anglo-saxon. If you accept West Saxon, you might have to start accepting historical dialects on the other side of the sea, and suddenly you'd find that you were defining Flemish, Dutch, Frisian etc as dialects of English....
 * Prof Wrong (talk) 13:09, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Israeli English
Doesn't Israel have its own dialect of English ? There are several English-language Israeli media such as the Jerusalem Post and Haaretz ; there are also many English-language newspapers affiliated to pro-Israel interests such as the New York Times and the International Herald Tribune. Since these sections of the press are among the most influential in the global media, it thus seems appropriate that an article about Israeli English be included in Wikipedia. ADM (talk) 16:23, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Tampanian English?
I want this removed from the list until someone can give me what characteristics make it distinct. I live in the Tampa Bay area (have for 20 years) and from what I can tell, the accent/dialect prevalent here is simply General American. Googling around doesn't help at all, mostly it gets me more mirrors of this list without any information on a dialect that I (apparently) grew up speaking. 71.99.107.192 (talk) 06:23, 29 May 2009 (UTC) Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 May 29 -- Wavelength (talk) 19:18, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Tyke?
As a person who grew up with the Yorkshire dialect (it was my first language), I know of no one who calls the Yorkshire dialect 'Tyke'. Where I was raised, in Sheffield, it was always referred to as 'Broad Yorkshire'. Not once did I hear it referred to as 'Tyke' by anyone and I should think such a thing would annoy a Yorkshireman or woman, since 'tyke' is a little-used word for a naughty child. In fact the only time I've ever seen it called 'Tyke' is here on Wikipedia. Where are the sources for this name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.50.25.105 (talk) 19:18, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I agee, as far I know the name Tyke origannly was used for the Yorkshire Cricket Club. I would go with Yorkshire English or Yorkshire Accent. The more broad your accent the exaggerated and wider use of local slang. Broad would be the daily rantings of Geoff Boycott where as Sean Bean while still recognisably speaking Yorkshire is hardly broad. TheHamburger (talk) 19:34, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

Call article "List of English language dialects and accents"
It would be best to title the article "List of English language dialects and accents" rather than attempt, OR-style, to decide which are dialects and which are accents. It is wrong for Wikipedia to make that distinction, and certainly calling all of them dialects is both silly and wrong.Haberstr (talk) 17:34, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

middle east dialects
Egyptian english

easteren mid english

israeli english

arab/golf english

north african english

--MasriDefend (talk) 01:29, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

South Yorkshire
I've taken out the note on South Yorkshire accents being more like a midland dialect bearing in mind it is a well-known fact throughout Yorkshire (and thanks to films like Kes, the rest of the world) that Barnsley, South Yorkshire has arguably the strongest Yorkshire Accent (and dialect) of the whole region.--Tubs uk (talk) 15:18, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

RP is an accent, not a dialect
By definition, Received pronunciation is a pronunciation, and so by the definition given at the start is an accent, not a dialect. Digitig (talk) 23:50, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Dialects in Britain
Within Britain regional dialects have virtually ceased to exist. I was born in 1953; my grandparents were born in the late 19th century and could speak Yorkshire dialect (Where ast tha bin sin ah saw thee? On Ilkley moor, baht'at!) but rarely did so. Today Yorkshire dialect (and most other British regional dialects) is spoken only by a few farmers, and then mostly just amongst themslves as a sort of 'club membership' code. Only regional accents are left, some are still quite strong, but even these have been evened out a great deal over the last 100 years, and very much so over the last half century as radio, TV, cinema and increased mobility have helped homogenise the language more and more - and not just averaged on an all-Britain model, but also tending towards some sort of British/American/Australian hybrid. Fascinating. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.5.242 (talk) 13:58, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Mormon English Dialect
Is there a regional English dialect spoken by Mormons in Mormon country? Does English written in the Deseret Alphabet count as a dialect? Prsaucer1958 (talk) 02:30, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

International Dialects of English Archive
Should someone who has the time add some links from IDEA to the pages of English dialects and accents.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by KennedyBroseguini (talk • contribs) 07:24, 25 June 2012‎ (UTC)

Error
"Inland Northern American English" is listed twice. --151.41.236.64 (talk) 19:38, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Brunei English
has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.128.112 (talk) 05:18, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Malaysian English
has been nominated for deletion -- 76.65.128.112 (talk) 05:18, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Creoles and pidgins
Of all the items listed under Creoles and pidgins, only Bajan, Guyanese and Nigerian Pidgin and actual creoles or pidgins, so the name of that section needs revision. Maybe something like Code-switching, creoles and pidgins. There are also some creoles listed in the preceding sections (Krio, Pitkern and Norfuk); I think it’s a good idea to standardise how they are listed.

In any case, I question the accuracy of having creoles in a list of English dialects. English-based creoles are distinct languages, having English as the source of their lexicon, not dialects of English. Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV (talk) 23:12, 12 November 2014 (UTC)


 * True. We have English-based creole languages, and it doesn't list Spanglish or anything like that. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 15:57, 17 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The section in question actually a a random, grab-bag collection of completely different phenomenona, including cants and jargons. For example, Anglish is English purified of Latinisms and Gallicisms; Engrish isn't a stable variety of English, but actually refers to apparently completely unintentional mistakes in signage and other texts in English made by native speakers of Japanese, as well as idiosyncratic Anglicisms and pseudo-Anglicisms (and pure foreign-branding type inventions) in Japanese; Greeklish is a collective term for a large number of transliteration methods and romanisation schemes sometimes similar to leet; and Denglisch refers to the overuse or non-native, idiosyncratic use of English loans and other Anglicisms (including pseudo-Anglicisms and purely invented out of whole cloth English-sounding brand names, trademarks, titles, names and the like) in German! I suspect the whole shebang is pure OR and silly popular linguistics which would be better off deleted.
 * I've purged the article of pidgins and creoles and added links to their own articles. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 21:11, 17 July 2015 (UTC)