Talk:List of elected and appointed female heads of state and government/Archive 1

Comment on sortable table
The table becomes more functional if the names are listed as last name, first name and the dates are listed in ISO format: 2006-10-04. I separated the beginning and end dates and started correcting the entries, but someone needs to finish it. ~ trialsanderrors 20:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, let's do it (last name, first name, for better sorting capability). A photo by each head would be nice, too, but I don't know if that is Wiki-standard.--Skates61 (talk) 14:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I finished the date formatting (it would also work with the date preferences settings). As just one was in the "last name, first name" format for now, I changed that one back to the usual. -- User:Docu

Heads of Government
We should make a second list listing all the female heads of government, some of them are in command in their nations and should be included (i.e. Angela Merkel, Margaret Thatcher, ect.) If not a new list, and new page: List of elected or appointed female heads of government


 * Yes and it should replace: Category:Female heads of government. Lycurgus 18:51, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Is there no way to combine both into 1 page? HOS and HOG seems to be not so different. Maybe List of female state leaders ? kawaputra torque 18:27, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Considering we have a list for female presidents there should be one as well for female prime ministers or titles simalar such as Chancellor of Germany Angela Merkel. Bentley4 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bentley4 (talk • contribs) 00:48, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, the Heads of Government are a subset of Heads of State and belong on the page. I will add in 1 week if no disagreement, and develop a symbol column to indicate head of government, head of state, elected, appointed, etc. The "Presently Serving" indicator could also appear here. --Skates61 (talk) 14:07, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Khertek Anchimaa-Toka
Khertek Anchimaa-Toka doesn't sound like a head of state to me. From reading her article, it doesn't even sound like she was head of government (wouldn't that be someone in the Great Khural?) Recury 20:14, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * She was the head of state. Tuva was structured on Soviet lines, meaning that ceremonial head of state duties were delegated to an official styled "Chairman of the Presidium of the [Supreme Soviet/National Assembly/Little Hural, etc.]. The Little Hural was the presiding committee of the legislature, not a separate chamber of parliament. —Sesel 20:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Makes sense, thanks for the reply. Recury 20:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Bias towards Republics
I added Margaret Thatcher, but it got removed. The UK Prime Minister is the "the de facto wielder of executive powers in the British Government". Removing her is based on a mere technicality rather than anything else, and the removal just shows a bias towards republics and against the spirit of the list. Anyone agree/disagree? -Halo 23:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, the PM is the most powerful official, but this does not necessarily make one the head of state. The claim of "bias toward republics" makes no sense. There is a legitimate distinction to be made from those who inherit their position (it would then be impossible to create such a list because of the flexibility of the terms "state" and "monarchy" before more recent times) and those who reach office otherwise. In the United Kingdom, the Queen is the head of state. —Sesel 23:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, but surely a list of elected heads of state is somewhat arbitrary. At the moment, the list is inherently limited to republics - my point is that at the moment the list is /inherently/ biased towards republics due to its nature, and surely a more "useful" list would be a list of appointed female "elected world leaders" and would serve the purpose better, since it would produce a bigger, more accurate, picture and world view? Despite Queen Elizabeth II being the "head of state" on paper, in any "real life" terms, she isn't and anyone looking for this information would probably want a "bigger picture" than one stated merely by arbitrary job titles. -Halo 11:54, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

A separate list
A separate list should be constructed for elected or appointed heads of governments e.g. Golda Meir and Margaret Thatcher.

212.179.71.70 08:43, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Another list should be made for elected or appointed heads of goverment. It makes more sense than to just have a seperate category. Bentley4 December 17,2007 —Preceding comment was added at 19:11, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I feel this approach would result in too many lists and resulting difficuties for majority of users who are not interested in these finer distinctions. But it is clearly important to mention them. Therefore, I might offer instead that we development of a series of symbols, sortable, to distinguish these fine points. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skates61 (talk • contribs) 14:28, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Tarja Halonen
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarja_Halonen :

Tarja Kaarina Halonen (pronounced [tɑrjɑ kɑːrinɑ hɑlonen] (help·info)) (born December 24, 1943, in Helsinki, Finland) is the current President of Finland. She began her first six-year term of office in 2000 and was re-elected on January 29, 2006. Her current term expires in 2012. She is the first woman to hold the office.

She should be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.79.57.39 (talk) 12:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

What about Natasha Michich?
She was acting President of Serbia from 30 december 2002 to 4 february 2004 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.228.15.41 (talk) 06:29, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Serbia was still part of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia when she assumed office.

Female Governor General
In Canada, the Governor General is the Head of State of our country. Why Jeanne Sauvé, Adrienne Clarkson, or Michaëlle Jean doesn't appear on the list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pidgee (talk • contribs) 05:41, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Technically the Canadian Governor-General is not in fact the Head of State, as it is the queen who holds that position and the Governor-General is the queen's representative in Ottawa. Too bad because Canada has now had 3 female governors-general and even a female prime minister, but this list as it is structured has no place to display this information.Corlyon (talk) 15:56, 12 April 2008 (UTC)Corlyon


 * Actually, while the Queen is the legal Head of State, the Governor General is the acting Head of State. "Since then (letters patent, 1947), the governor general has daily and fully exercised the duties of the Head of State" The list says it includes acting Heads of State. The question is, should "Heads of State since sufferage" count all Governors General since suffrage (1918) or since the letters patent? The Governor General, as viceroy, was arguably acting Head of State before then, but with less responsibilities.
 * SteveMcQwark (talk) 05:32, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The prime minister has stated that the Queen is Canada's head of state. "Queen Elizabeth II is Queen of Canada and Head of State..." --  Ħ   MIESIANIACAL  00:10, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Indira Gandhi ?
Hey, why isn't Indira Gandhi on the list? She was India's first woman Prime Minister, and she isn't even on the list? --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 07:47, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Because according to the Constitution of India, the President and not the Prime Minister (who is the Head of government) is the Head of State. InArm (talk) 17:38, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The Prez is the executive head of state, who can use his/her powers only on advice of the prime minister. --Rsrikanth05 (talk) 11:58, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

I think Indira Gandhi should be on this list. It's an incomplete list otherwise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.196.72.138 (talk) 09:13, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

What order is the List in?
What order is the "List of elected or appointed female heads of state" in? It seems to be in no order at all. Why is that? User talk:CarlaudeUser talk:Carlaude 11:49, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Its in decreasing order by number, though you can click the little order buttons in order to reorder it however you like. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SteveMcQwark (talk • contribs) 06:30, 18 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Not the "Scoretable".
 * What order is the "List of female heads of state" itself in? User talk:CarlaudeUser talk:Carlaude 17:40, 18 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Its in order of mandate start, though you can order it any way you want using the buttons beside the headers. I'm assuming this is to provide a sense of progression... SteveMcQwark (talk) 22:04, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Isabel Perón
I've noticed that in the female heads of state list Isabel Perón's presidential term was cut into two parts (1974-75 and 1975-76) because Ítalo Argentino Lúder's role. Lúder's article states that he was acting president for Isabel Perón. In my understanding when somebody is acting for someone that means that the acting person merely deputizes for the incumbent during his/her temporary absence. For example if a president goes on sick leave (as Isabel Perón did in 1975) and somebody else acts on his behalf during his hospitalization, the president doesn't need to be elected and sworn in again and doesn't begin a second presidential term when he returns to his office. So Isabel was not president for two separate terms. I guess it's pretty convincing that the Argentine presidential homepage (http://www.casarosada.gov.ar/index.php?option=com_content&task=galeriaPresidentes&Itemid=62) lists Isabel as president for the term 1974-76 and doesn't even mention Ítalo Luder - after all the Argentines themselves should know who their president was. ZBukov (talk) 10:14, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Zoltan Bukovszky is right. The President for the whole period was Isabel Perón. Luder was acting (exercising presidential functions) for a period of time, but he was not sworn in. Salut, -- IANVS (talk | cont) 11:34, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Julia Gillard
Can someone please add in Julia Gillard, Current Prime-Minister of Australia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.172.153.200 (talk) 09:29, 16 August 2010 (UTC)
 * She is the Prime Minister of Australia, she is head of government, not head of state. That would be Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Australia. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:04, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Slovakia
The prime minister of Slovakia is Iveta Radicova. I don't know how to change the map. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.47.148.19 (talk) 19:56, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

China
Soong Shing-ling was Chairman and President of The People's Republic of China. She should be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.141.82.126 (talk) 03:31, 13 August 2007‎ (UTC)

Male Heads of State
Should a male heads of state article be created in order to be gender fair? 147.26.203.82 23:07, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Umm… no. For reasons that should be quite obvious. —Sesel 01:26, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it would be too long, it's only the novelty of the "little women" gaining power that deserves a list apparently.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.44.91.238 (talk) 14:32, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, such a list would be way too long. However, women have made remarkable gains in the political world of the last thirty years. I'm assuming that some time in the future when women in politics become so numerous as to be largely equal with there male counter-parts, these kinds of articles will be delated? --Darthdyas (talk) 20:57, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Ecuador & suffrage
This article gives a different date for women's suffrage in Ecuador than the Women's suffrage article, which give 1929. I have added information to the Timeline of women's suffrage article to explain why there are 3 different women's suffrage dates for Ecuador. Of the three, it seems to me that 1929 (women given the right, though not yet the obligation, to vote in the Constitution of Ecuador) is the most important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Potosino (talk • contribs) 15:34, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Dilma Rousseff
Brazil is misrepresented in the map. The President of Brazil (such as the President of Argentina and the President of the United States) acts as both head of state and head of government at the same time and, thus, Brazil should be painted orange instead of yellow. --Rodrigogomesonetwo (talk) 02:56, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Missing
Merkel, Indira Gandhi: where are they? 187.112.0.89 (talk) 11:03, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * They were heads of Government, not heads of state. See List of elected or appointed female heads of government. -LtNOWIS (talk) 21:48, 4 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Nadezhda Grigoryevna Grekova, Maryam Tugambayeva and Kalima Amankulova are missing from the list. --Aciram (talk) 23:31, 24 July 2011 (UTC)


 * They weren't heads of government. Therequiembellishere (talk) 01:11, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * They were heads of state. Isn't this list is about the heads of state, not the heads of government? This is the list of the female heads of governemnt:List of elected or appointed female heads of government. Besides, they may have been heads of government as well for all I know, but heads of state they were and this is a list of female heads of state. --Aciram (talk) 12:06, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Right, sorry. But they weren't heads of state either, you see. The SSRs weren't independent or sovereign. Therequiembellishere (talk) 16:53, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * This is a complicated matter. Of course the SSRs weren't independent republics in reality. But were they officially independent? Was not the Soviet Union a union of formally independent republics? --Aciram (talk) 19:07, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Not that I've ever heard or read. Therequiembellishere (talk) 22:43, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, if no one of us two knows, perhaps it should be asked on the references desk. I for my part have no idea which status they had. They were called "republics" after all.--Aciram (talk) 23:05, 25 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, I'm going out of town for the next week and I don't have the time to do more than my general editing. If you'd like to put the question forward, and link it here, I may pop in but won't take full part in any discussion. Therequiembellishere (talk) 23:15, 25 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, it would not be a discussion so much as a question; I simply lack knowledge about this matter and would like it to be thoroughly explained so I can understand it properly and in detail.--Aciram (talk) 23:20, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Denmark
Can someone please paint Denmark yellow on the map (Helle Thorning-Schmidt)? I know that the article is not about female heads of government, but the map is. --80.164.41.45 (talk) 21:22, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Head of State vs. Head of Government
Golda Meir and Angela Merkel were/are heads of government, not heads of state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.78.166 (talk • contribs)


 * Dear anonymous 84.164.78.166 & any others: A Head of Government is by definition a Head of State.
 * From Wiktionary: "head of state (plural heads of state) The chief public representative of a nation having duties and responsibilities granted by a constitution; a monarch in a monarchy, and a president in a republic."
 * Therefore in future no one should be removing heads of government from this page, they belong here, as they are clearly the chief public representative. Do not be confused by the use of the term president in this definition vs. prime minister. In governments that have both a President and a Prime Minister, both are heads of state. --Skates61 (talk) 14:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This last comment is, of course, complete and utter bullshit. Here in Germany, the President is the head of state, the Chancellor is the head of government. The two are clearly distinct, as in most modern democracies with such a system. That's why Merkel and Meir are not in this list. I know this is an old post, but it as it keeps coming up, I thought it should be made clear at the top of the talk page. -- Imladros (talk) 21:11, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The comment about heads of state and heads of government being the same is totally incorrect. See Canada, for example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.183.57.148 (talk) 19:42, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Queen Elizabeth II
Should the Queen of the UK be added to this list? In reality, although seen by most as just a figurehead, she is still the head of state according to the Constitution of the United Kingdom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.134.142 (talk • contribs)


 * No; note the intro. It's for elected or appointed heads of state, and specifically not monarchs. —Zero Gravitas 03:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Why not? The title of the article is heads of state, without reference to monarchs.  There is no article that includes monarchs.  I think the intro should be changed to something like "all heads of state: elected, appointed or otherwise" or the title should be changed to something like "List of women elected or appointed heads of state."—Markles 16:00, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, Queen Elizabeth is a Head of State. As are most or all monarchs around the world. But what I cant get my head around is this: Am I hallucinating, or is Margaret Thatcher not on this list? As one of the most prolific and controversial female rulers, I can only imagine she has been left out to customize the image of female leaders in a more positive light. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.215.127 (talk) 11:16, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thatcher is not a head of state, so she is not on this list. She's on the List of elected or appointed female heads of government. -LtNOWIS (talk) 11:22, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * So Canada gets to be one of the enlightened countries with a "female head of state and government" because it Queen Elizabeth II appointed a female in the position, but the UK doesn't get counted because Queen Elizabeth II herself happens to be a monarch. That makes sense.98.95.205.65 (talk) 21:39, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree, it makes no sense whatsoever to exclude monarchs, if I knew how to change maps I would change the article as it currently does not have much sense to exclude Elizabeth. Mspence835 (talk) 14:50, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Finland has wrong colour
Finland has wrong colour on the map. Finland should be in darker green: "Female head of state and female head of government". The posts of Head of State and Head of Government are not combined in Finland. However, there has been both a female president (Tarja Halonen) and two female Prime Ministers (Anneli Jäätteenmäki and Mari Kiviniemi). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.239.149.170 (talk) 11:43, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Possible vandalization on the part of the list where Golda Meir apears
Why is Golda Meir not listed here? She was the third-ever female head of state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.134.196.161 (talk) 01:23, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Now she is. Somebody must have vandalized the part where Golda Meir apeard on the list, caus in the past she did apear on the list. I have re-added her. --Midrashah (talk) 20:59, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Again, possible vandalization on the part of the list where Golda Meir apears
Golda Meir doesn't appear on this list. That isn't right.


 * Golda Meir was prime minister, therefore head of government, not head of state. You can find her in this article: List of elected or appointed female heads of government ZBukov (talk) 14:22, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

separeate elected from appointed?
What is the point of this article? If a woman was appointed interim head of the governing council for 6 mos. in 1956, that says far less about gender equality or the role of women in the country than if she were elected by a popular vote, or if her party were elected into the majority under her leadership. We exclude monarchs who merely inherit the throne; should we at least divide elected and appointed leaders into separate sections of the article? I'm rethinking how I made the map, too: should China really be colored the same as Ireland? — kwami (talk) 20:59, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree, separating elected from appointed heads of state would make more sense in terms of gender equality. I find it quite misleading that France and Germany share the same color even though only Angela Merkel has been elected while Edith Cresson was only nominated prime minister. Skimel (talk) 14:31, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Golda Meir
Golda Meir was the Head of Government of the State of Israel, not the Head of State. Please consider omitting her from this list. --50.161.65.38 (talk) 01:08, 19 October 2015 (UTC) sorry that was me btw, forgot to log in. --OettingerCroat (talk) 01:09, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

South Korea
Why South Korea is colored dark green? On the "Prime Minister of South Korea" article, it states that the actual head of government is the president, who is also the head of state. So, shouldn't the country be colored the same as Brazil, Argentina, Indonesia and the Philippines? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AdaCiccone (talk • contribs) 04:57, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

France
I am pretty sure the map is wrong, France has never had a female head of state  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.145.74.111 (talk) 21:24, 10 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Let's see if TenToTwo can straighten this out one way or the other. Vaughan Pratt (talk) 03:51, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * France is colored yellow in the map - i.e. head of government, not head of state. -- Irn (talk) 04:15, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * As Irn said, the map indicates that France has had some point had a female head of government, not a female head of state. According to the List of elected or appointed female heads of government, Édith Cresson was Prime Minister (i.e. head of government) of France from 15 May 1991 to 2 April 1992.Tentotwo (talk) 04:46, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

colors
On my computer, running Mozilla, the colors in the legend do not match those on the map. For example, it makes it look like the U.S. has had a head of state or government.Kdammers (talk) 17:17, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

Merge with heads of government article?
Am I the only one who thinks having two separate articles, one for heads of state and one for heads of government, is silly? It just creates confusion and, as seen on this talk page, conflict over who should be included. Especially as a). many countries combine the head of state role and the head of government role, which makes it seem like countries that have had female leaders have not were one only looking at the head of government page, and b). this article does not include monarchies, making it seem like many countries that have had female leaders have not if you were only looking at this page. E.g. the UK had at one point a female head of government (Thatcher as PM) and a female head of state (Queen Liz) at the same time, however if you were looking at this page alone you may think the UK has never had a female leader. I'm sure there are similar situations occurring regarding other countries, and so it just seems pointless to have two separate pages. Willing to merge these pages myself if people agree here? --Xander 1993 (talk) 16:17, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Hong Kong
Hong Kong isn't an independent country but if associated states such as Italy are included, there's no reason why it shouldn't be. Taiwan (unrecognized state) and Peruvian President of the Council of Ministers listing as its head of government are both examples of "Wikipedia" recognizing de facto heads rather than going by the official stance, especially when Hong Kong is more of its own country than any dependency, associate state, and indeed European Union member state is. And it's not within international "de facto" recognition either - foreign heads of state and government write directly to the Chief Executive, the CE goes around and signs treaties/agreements with sovereign state leaders, and when it comes to international agreements, China and Hong Kong are treated as two independent entities (eg China is a signatory of the refugee agreements but Hong Kong isn't, thus Hong Kong doesn't follow the agreement).

If having legal sovereignty is the deciding factor here, then would you have excluded Canada before 1982? Canada had less legal power over their own affairs than Hong Kong does before 1982.

And if none of these convinces you, at the very very least the CE should be included on the list of representatives of heads of state as she's appointed by the Chinese congress to rule Hong Kong, á la The Queen appointing a governor-general (even though the CE then is the representative of the legally soverign congress, not of the president, who himself was appointed by the same body). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clh hilary (talk • contribs) 21:51, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Why not Prime Minister?
Prime ministers are the real elected heads of governments like UK, Inida, Australia, Canada and many more — Preceding unsigned comment added by N2271 (talk • contribs) 13:40, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes why not? This makes no sense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.242.43.12 (talk) 08:58, 3 June 2014 (UTC)


 * This is because there is a separate article for that: List of elected or appointed female heads of government. ZBukov (talk) 10:40, 3 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Oh boy, talk about splitting hairs!


 * Does even 1% of Wikipedia's readership understand the fine points underlying these distinctions, some of which are meaningless? Does Wikipedia have an article about female leaders of countries that doesn't require hair-splitting?  And if not why not?  Vaughan Pratt (talk) 04:12, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

That would not be appropriate here but you can have a list of "paramount leaders" or just "leaders" for that. I'd imagine the reason for the separation was because it may sometimes be difficult to tell who has the real power - eg Turkey was supposed to be a parliamentary democracy but the president clearly holds the power now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clh hilary (talk • contribs) 22:00, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Articles merged
Decided to go ahead with the merger since the proposal was up for a while and there was no opposition, there is no longer a list of heads of government article. Heads of state and heads of government both go here, I have added a column to the table to clarify whether the person listed is a head of state or head of government. Xander 1993 (talk) 20:20, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

RFC
@ Zoltan Bukovszky. This is going to end up into an edit war so before that happens a discussion is need. The representatives of heads of state are (not) heads of state so they should be a separate article. People who go here look for female presidents (i.e. Hillary Clinton) and governor generals are not exactly that. They are kinda heads of state but not really. Anyway, the article specifically excludes monarchs so their representatives defeat that purpose. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 14:03, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
 * --See WP:WRFC. Winged Blades Godric 04:46, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * It's worth mentioning that Hillary is not nor has ever been president, and considering she said she won't run again, never will be. -- Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  11:58, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * People said she's a liar so maybe she is lying. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 13:18, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Where is the RFC, what are to we to vote on? Bot summoned. L3X1  (distant write)  13:35, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
 * @L3X1, There is a potentially explosive discussion about the inclusion of List of female representatives of heads of state in the article. In the most narrowest senses. They should not. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 17:44, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
 * So, you removed some listings from this current list, and moved it to List of female representatives of heads of state, right? I have checked both talk pages and your own, and don't see any "explosive discussion", also not in your most recent 102 contribs. So I'm not understanding what is going on (is the argument about the existence of the second list, or a merge discussion or what) and what I am to do. Please help me to understand, thank you. L3X1 (distant write)  18:04, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
 * This article should be split into two list this one and the new one. There has yet to be an edit war but this discussion might end up into one so just being careful here. The other user who opposes splitting this article does not seem to be interested but just in case they do this discussion is here for them. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 18:14, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
 * OK, now I understand. Thank you. L3X1 (distant write)  18:43, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Unlike female monarchs, the representatives did not inherit their position, and they don't hold it for life, so in this respect they are more similar to the non-royal heads or state, and therefore should be included in this list, rather than moved to another article entirely. We lose nothing by leaving them here in a separate section, as it had been before. ZBukov (talk) 22:18, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * They are not national leaders but only representatives so they do not hold equal power with a woman who actually holds the title. The separate list can stay as long as it is placed before the main list. People who go here usually check the bottom of the list to see current female heads of state. The secondary list obstructs that. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 22:51, 25 April 2017 (UTC)
 * You may not have checked, but Governors-General do actually feature on the very list of national leaders you linked above (List of current heads of state and government), and also on the United Nations' list of heads of state and government (https://protocol.un.org/dgacm/pls/site.nsf/files/HSPMFM/$FILE/Hspmfm.pdf). And on a day-to-day basis it is the Governors-General you perform the sovereign's constitutional tasks (given the fact that decades go by without the Queen visiting some of her smaller realms). ZBukov (talk) 16:27, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

@Gag0409/ZBukov, Checked that list actually. If they are representatives of The Queen then they are merely extensions of Her. They are not elected on their own right nor do they hold exclusive power without Her consent. They belong to a different list altogether, just like the female heads of government. This list explicitly excludes monarchs in the opening paragraph so listing them would be an ironic contradiction. It is as if Her presence permeates into this article despite not belonging here. This list is for republics, all of whom did not choose Her. Shhhhwwww!! (talk) 02:12, 29 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I have removed the tag as this is not a valid request for comment - there was no text at all after the, which meant that it showed up blank at the RfC listings (see  and also how it displays at the bottom of that page). I note that  has already suggested that  should read WP:WRFC. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 22:42, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

This is a very silly suggestion, we don't need a million different list articles for such similar things, female representatives of monarchs should either be listed on the female monarchs list or remain here, they don't need their own page. Xander 1993 (talk) 20:26, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 09:33, 21 May 2017 (UTC)


 * President/Queen is heads of state and Prime Minister/Cancellor/Primier is heads of government. who's Prime Minister inauguration???? Akuindo (talk) 02:23, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

RFC - Single list or separate lists?
I personally think that having one list is simpler, people coming to this page are generally looking for information about female leaders, regardless of whether they are heads of state or heads of government. In addition many women have fulfilled both roles in their countries, often in short succession, and I think the single list format helps to highlight this better. However, the page was recently edited to separate the two lists, so I think we should try to get some consensus here; should we have separate lists for head of state and head of government, or should we keep it as one list? Xander 1993 (talk) 22:55, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Pointless external link
The link to "List of elected or appointed female heads of government" is now completely pointless, as we are instantly redirected from there to the article we are now reading!213.127.210.95 (talk) 13:15, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

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Map
I think there should be a separate category for monarchies, as they are currently judged to have no head of state according to the map. Countries like the UK and Denmark (with female heads of state and government) are currently shown as identical to countries like Germany and France that have had no female presidents. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 14:31, 21 September 2018 (UTC)


 * This article is about the glass ceiling women face. Being born heir is very different in that regard than being elected leader, or even being appointed.
 * BTW, I split the map into two, current and former, so we can see the current situation of the world at a glance. IMO there have been enough elected female leaders now that this has become notable.
 * Also, I've removed the coloring from dependent territories. They make it look like e.g. the Caribbean is a hotbed of female leadership, and obscure those Caribbean countries that actually have elected female leaders. Also, the PM of Denmark is not the PM of Greenland or the Faroe Islands. If people want them included, then I think we need a discussion of which kinds of non-sovereign states we should include -- just member states of e.g. the UK and Denmark, free association as w e.g. NZ and the US, all territories w home rule, etc. But since none of those are in the tables for this article, I didn't think it would be a good idea to include them on the maps. — kwami (talk) 06:38, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

(Should probably remove the dots from Guadeloupe and Martinique, to match what we have for Reunion and Mayotte, but can't be bothered right now.)

Can we remove the governors-general from the list, maybe add PMs of free-association countries?
There have been a lot of women elected since this article was written in March 2005. Maybe at the time the list seemed embarrassingly sparse, and adding governors-general appointed by the Queen to the Commonwealth helped fill it out. But they're really rather beside the point. We don't include monarchs, because they do not demonstrate that women can get elected leader, so why include someone appointed by a monarch? If we're thinking of this as a glass-ceiling article, then IMO we should restrict ourselves to elected officials, even if they're only elected by a council, as in China. Governor-generals could be relegated to a section of the text rather than being in the main table and on the maps. For incumbents, that would mean Canada, Bahamas and Grenada.

I think we should also think about adding semi-sovereign or free-association states such as Greenland and the Cook Islands. Greenland and the Faroes have had female PMs, as have Sint Maarten and Aruba (incumbent). Since there are only a few UN states that allow their constituents to have that degree of autonomy (UK, NZ, Neth, Denmark, formerly the US, that I can think of), it wouldn't be a major change or a lot to keep track of. — kwami (talk) 07:28, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I think moving the governors-general to their own section is a sensible proposal. We could possibly include governors of dependent territories in the same section. I assume the non-sovereign leaders (heads of government not governors) would be in the main section, maybe with the country in italics? Ivar the Boneful (talk) 08:38, 29 October 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that makes sense. We use italics for unrecognized sovereign states.

We might mention monarchs as well, in the same section as governors-general. There are just 2 currently, AFAICT, but of course there's no obvious historical cut-off the way there is with elected leaders. — kwami (talk) 03:06, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Might want to add these to the list of appointed heads of state - List of High Commissioners of Greenland (incumbent), List of High Commissioners of the Faroe Islands (3 female, incl. the incumbent), Governor of Curaçao (1 former acting plus incumbent). None for Aruba, Sint Maarten, or Cook Islands, and Niue doesn't seem to have such a position. I'll let someone else finish up that section. — kwami (talk) 04:08, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

The way the maps now are, green = women have filled all elective posts (light green = 1 such post, med green = 2). Blue and yellow are where women have filled one of two elective posts, so these countries may become green in the future. Thus green countries will not change further unless there's a change in the form of govt. So, for example, the UK and Denmark are now green, because there's nothing left for women to be elected to. Having them yellow had suggested that further progress was possible (in this simple tally, I mean). — kwami (talk) 05:16, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Governor General is not head of state.
https://www.gg.ca/en/role

Canada became a country at Confederation in 1867. Our system of government is a constitutional monarchy and a parliamentary democracy. Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II is Queen of Canada and Head of State. The Governor General is the representative of The Queen in Canada.

Governor generals need to be edited to remove head of state — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:F2C0:E76C:1BF6:E58D:F253:9CB2:10F3 (talk) 15:29, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

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Members of collective heads of state bodies
There has been some to-ing and fro-ing lately about whether members of collective head-of-state bodies should be included in this article. I think they should be included in the article, but not in the main list as their role is not equivalent to a standalone head of state / government. In fact it is debatable whether they count as a head of state at all – e.g. List of heads of state of the Soviet Union does not list any of the women included here, despite this article saying the Soviet Union has had ten female heads of state. Are the readers looking for these people? Probably not; they're looking for actual heads of state. I would support including a separate list of these people in a different section, but we need to clearly distinguish between membership of an executive and actually head-of-state status. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 15:16, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
 * "Actual head of state" is a very vague term. USSR officially had a collective form of power (Collective leadership in the Soviet Union), so they didn't have "actual head of state". The article you are pointing to ("List of heads of state of the Soviet Union") has wrong englist title. In Russian, this article is called Председатель Президиума Верховного Совета СССР (Chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR) and it gives the following clarification:"Нередко на Запад Председатель Президиума назывался «главой Советского государства» (а за рубежом часто и «Президентом»), хотя официально коллегиальным главой государства считался весь Президиум Верховного Совета" (Often in the West, the Chairman of the Presidium was called "the head of the Soviet state" (or even "President"), although the entire Presidium of the Supreme Soviet was officially considered the collegial head of state.). Decisions were made collectively. For example Presidium made a decision to to withdraw Khrushchev from power by a vote of its members in 1964 (it wasnt Brezhnev decision). The same with other communist countries. Khertek Anchimaa-Toka was head of Presidium, but she newer consdered "head of state" in USSR or anyway else.  So she newer had "actually head-of-state status". In addition, you can not possibly know what "readers are looking for".Akerlea Velázquez (talk) 14:56, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Germany
On the first map, Germany is correctly highlighted as having a current head of government (Angela Merckel). However on the second map of historical female heads of state and government, Germany is not highlighted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qelmasri (talk • contribs) 01:49, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Female chief executives of a constituent country or state
I suggest integrating this table into one of the tables/creating a separate table in List of female dependent territory leaders with possible change of name for the latter article. We simply need to add American and German leaders, since everyone else is already there.--Extended Cut (talk) 13:27, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

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Potential additions
Whizz40 (talk) 10:13, 17 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Yevgenia Bosch, Ukrainian People's Republic (30 December 1917 – 1 March 1918), sometimes considered the first modern woman leader of a national government. She held the position of Minister of Interior and Acting Leader of the People's Secretariat of Ukraine, one of a number of competing ruling bodies in the Ukrainian People's Republic, the predecessor of Soviet Ukraine (It initially formed part of the Russian Republic, but proclaimed its independence on 25 January 1918).

The Sudan
I'm new, and I may be wrong, but the Sudan has never had a female head of state, let alone in the present. The map is wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GangesRed (talk • contribs) 16:07, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
 * The Sovereignty Council of Sudan is currently the collective head of state of Sudan. Two of its eleven members are women. That's who the map is, presumably, referring to. BegbertBiggs (talk) 16:51, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

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Missing from the list

 * Sylvie Kinigi
 * Evelyn Wever-Croes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.176.226.254 (talk) 12:04, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Agathe Uwilingiyimana
 * Ivy Matsepe-Cassaburi Whizz40 (talk) 19:41, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Definition of country
It seems we need to discuss what constitutes a country for the purposes of this page. I reverted the addition of Nadezhda Grekova, a premier of the Byelorussian SSR (and was subsequently reverted), and I similarly just reverted the addition of the First Minister of Scotland. In my view, the criteria for what constitutes a country should be the same as on List of sovereign states, and sub-national entities should not be included. Similarly, I don't feel that Soong Ching-ling, whose title was solely honorary and whose term took place while she was on her deathbed, warrants inclusion in this list either. Glad to discuss. --WMSR (talk) 15:25, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya
What is the protocol for handling disputed leaders? Sviatlana Tsikhanouskaya is currently the disputed President of Belarus due to an election with widespread allegations of fraud. Some see her as the incumbent president, some do not. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 14:39, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

If they actually control the country, but are seen as disputed by some, then they should be included. If they are not in charge, even if they are viewed as legitimate by some sections of their society or by some foreign countries then they should not. Tsikhanouskaya does not control any part of Belarus, does not have the allegiance of the security forces or parliament, so should be removed from the list until she does. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.155.181.202 (talk) 12:20, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Sudan?
Sudan does not currently have a female head of state yet it is indicted as such on the first map. Somebody needs to change that. 47.150.227.254 (talk) 14:33, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

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Why not monarchs?
I think it's valid not to include monarchs, but technically the monarch is the head of state in a lot of juridictions (and the Governor General of equivalent is their representative). So Michaele Jean, for example, was never head of state in Canada, but represented the head of state, who was and is Queen Elizabeth the 2nd. I still think it's significant and that she should be listed, but correctly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.183.57.148 (talk) 19:44, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

I can't understand the rationale behind not including monarchs, probably because no rationale is stated actually. Is it because they inherited titles? Seems arbitrary. But there are female monarchs who have been appointed and who did not get to be head of state through inheritance: in England there was Mary II (of William and Mary). Emeraude 21:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * My guess is that the number of monarchs would dwarve the number of civilian heads of state. On the other hand, since it's now a sortable list the "type" (elected, appointed, inherited) can be added. ~ trialsanderrors 21:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The reason must be that this article is meant to show the women in the politics who were elected or appointed, not born into rule.
 * What about elected monarchs? Enchanting catalyst (talk) 17:51, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

I would think it far more likely that, by excluding monarchs (many of whom are female) the list is less problematic for the "women are the victims" sacred cow. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.215.127 (talk) 11:20, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Then start your own article about monarchs and put it in "see also". It doesn't make any sense to conflate them with real politicians who have real accomplishments. Connor Behan (talk) 19:00, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Right. Boadicea, Queen Elizabeth I, Catherine the Great, etc. had no "real accomplishments".
 * What a put-down that is! Vaughan Pratt (talk) 04:17, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

I guess it's intended to show that various Eastern Bloc countries invented the idea of female head of state. Rather than like Ancient Egypt as it was in actuality. This article is stupid propaganda. 94.193.35.68 (talk) 02:57, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Sure, but modern day politics is much more rooted in the Roman Empire so some "reinventing" was needed. Connor Behan (talk) 19:00, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

It is highly unrepresentative missing out the monarchs, if we are to miss the monarch should we not place the highest elected official instead? Countries such as the UK and Denmark will never have an elected or appointed female head of state, yet they both have had women holding the highest government position and Queens regent. Surely they could be added, even if those since they became constitutional monarchies. Lemonade100 17:34, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Apart from elected monarchs (eg the Vatican and Malaysian ones), monarchs are not elected so it makes sense not to include them. You may argue that they're appointed by God but that's clearly not what "appointed" was intended to mean originally. If she's appointed by The Pope, perhaps we could make an argument for their inclusion. In that case, however, perhaps the list could opt to include only modern leaders. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clh hilary (talk • contribs) 21:55, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
 * If we include female monarchs, then almost every part of the world whould have had female "head of state" in one time period or another. This list and article only makes sense if we refer to people within a modern political system. Monarchs may be refer to as 'head of state', but they are not a part of a modern political system, even if they are integrated in it. Female monarchs can have their own list and article. --Aciram (talk) 18:43, 8 December 2020 (UTC)

Previous heads of state or government
There are currently three images in the infobox: current female elected or appointed heads of state or government ("heads"), previous heads and current or previous heads. I see a great value in the current and the "previous heads" and "current or previous heads". I don't really see why we would be interested in a map of all countries with former heads of state or government. After all, that mostly depends on whether that first example is still in office - which in some countries may be a few years (e.g. Austria), and in others longer (e.g. Germany). I would propose to drop this particular figure from the infobox - it's too prominent for its limited informational value, and takes quite a bit of parsing before one can appreciate the information provided (easy to misinterpret). Am I overlooking a use case? effeietsanders 20:03, 25 December 2020 (UTC)

Belgium
The map shows Belgium in yellow. But it should be light green because prime minister is the only elective national office since Belgium is a monachy. StanBax (talk) 22:37, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Merkel
Where the hell is Angela Merkel? 97.116.68.120 (talk) 19:36, 24 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Angela Merkel is not a head of state. She is a head of government, and there is a separate article for that. ZBukov (talk) 19:46, 26 December 2016 (UTC)

Please stop adding Empress Zewditu
Do you even read the abstract of the article before surfing it. Female monarchs (be it Queens, Empresses, Princesses, Great Duchesses etc.) are excluded from this list. Only elected or appointed female heads of state shall be added and not those that have inherited the post.

Sudan
Susan has no female head of state Nlivataye (talk) 09:49, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

᜵ᝣ
content://media/external/downloads/3238 2603:8090:A06:7D70:B8CB:5F84:DB5B:CB16 (talk) 11:14, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Namibia
Saara Kuugongelwa is missing; the Prime Minister of Namibia is the leader of the Government according to the article of the office.--Aciram (talk) 22:50, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

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maps
A large number of relevant countries were invisible with the new mouse-over maps, so I restored the SVGs, where small countries are marked by larger dots to make them visible. However, I retained the new purple color for having had both offices held by women, and restored counting vice-regal reps as heads of state, so e.g. Canada OZ and NZ remain purple. I'm not sure that's how we should handle it (it's a different situation than the purple countries of eastern Europe, as well as from other Commonwealth countries such as India and Sri Lanka), so perhaps that's something we should discuss. — kwami (talk) 23:49, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

Combining term length?
This list's entries are by continuous terms, not total time in office. That means there are separate entries if someone has lost power and then later returned to office. When you sort by Term Length, Angela Merkel is first at 16 years, but Sheikh Hasina's time in power is split into two entries - her current term of 13+ years, and then further down the list, her term of 5 years between 1996-2001. If we counted all of Hasina's time in power, she would be first on the list.

As there are many women on this list with multiple entries, is it possible to add another column for Total Term Length that is a sum of each woman's time in office? Or merge their entries somehow?

Kdalgleish (talk) 14:08, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

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Spain?
Spain (as we know, not before the union of Isabella and Ferdinand) has had another Queen: Isabel II, as Head of State from 1833 until 1868. Shouldn’t Spain therefore be colored in the map?


 * We don't count monarchs. — kwami (talk) 03:30, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Kumaratunga's prime ministerial tenure
I have noticed that former Sri Lankan President Chandrika Kumaratunga's tenure as Prime Minister between 19 August and 12 November 1994 is missing from the list. However many would argue that the Prime Minister of Sri Lanka is not a head of government but merely a deputy head of government, but the tenure of her mother, Sirimavo Bandaranaike as Prime Minister between 14 November 1994 and 10 August 2000 has been mentioned on the list. Please enlighten me on this topic please. --Oritsu.me (talk) 05:35, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Hong Kong
shoulda include Carrie Lam, former Chief Executive of HK 112.201.250.82 (talk) 17:42, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Macedonia in color? Uganda not?
Macedonia never had a female PM, only acting one (for a few days). Uganda should have the same color as Namibia and Peru. On the other hand, there is no Renata Indzhova on the list, she was PM of Bulgaria not in acting capacity but as a leader of interim government - also Vassiliki Thanou for example was not an acting PM but also interim - there is a big difference between an acting PM of existing government (like, when deputy acts as PM when PM died or resigned) and an interim one, which (like Indzhova and Thanou) names her-his own cabinet, just that its time in office is meant to be short. Indzhova, for example, is listed on Wikipedia page of Bulgarian PMs and counted, and Radmila Šekerinska of Macedonia, who only acted for 3-4 weeks on two separate occasions (as a deputy PM) is not, and that is as it should be. If a person is named by head of state in order to name her cabinet, she should be here, and if she just lead by chance a cabinet named by another person, to whom was given a mandate by the president/monarch, that person should not be here and is not counted as PM. These persons are not officially listed as prime ministers, there are no their photos at the PM galleries of these countries, etc. 95.155.0.235 (talk) 06:52, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

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Maps
Why is Canada, New Zealand and Australia still shown purple or blue especially for Canada or Australia who neither has a female pm or current female monarchy since the Queen died and now it's the King Charles Nlivataye (talk) 16:47, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

The map considers governor general, not monarchs: for Canada and New Zealand, they are respectively Mary Simon and Cindy Kiro, while Australia had Quentin Bryce. Hetsre (talk) 13:39, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Kamala Harris?
Should acting head of state/governments be on this list? They could have their own list, but an acting president/prime minister is not place in any list of presidents or prime ministers anywhwere and to put them in here gives them undue weight. --Aciram (talk) 13:19, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes I agree. The post of president was not vacant. The president was only temporarily unable to exercise. Otherwise, many other female vice presidents would have to be on that list. Ramsessantos (talk) 21:30, 27 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Most nations in the world - at least the Western world - would be on this list if that is the case. Sweden, for example, already in 1958. All acting presidents/prime ministers can be removed; either altogether or to their own list. I believe that is not a controversial step for anyone to do anytime.--Aciram (talk) 15:58, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I agree that taking over a vacated office in an acting position is different from temporarily having powers transferred to you on an acting basis, but we can't ignore that she was literally acting president of the United States. Either we remove all acting positions as per Aciram (I would not necessarily be opposed), keep Harris, or remove Harris and make a note of how we are defining "acting".{ [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 20:46, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
 * We can't treat The United States differently than any other nation in the world. Wikipedia does not discriminate between countries. Ulla Lindström was literary acting prime minister of Sweden in 1958, and there are tons of such examples. If we remove one acting president/prime minister from the list, we must remove all of them. Of course definitions may differ, but definitions already differ between for example heads of government in different countries, so that discussion may last seven years unless we keep it simple. All acting positions should be removed simply because they are acting positions. I suggest all acting positions are moved to their own list under a new section of this article, in the same manner as Vice regal and collective heads of state positions already are. This should be un-controversial, since they will still be in the same article, were similar positions are already listed under different lists. So it would just be following the system the article already have. --Aciram (talk) 18:34, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Kamala Harris was not head of state or head of government in her own right. She just held the powers and duties of the president while the president was still in office. This happens routinely all around the world - for example, when the president or PM is abroad, on leave, on vacation or is ill. Including such cases misses the whole point of this list, which is to list female HoS and HoG who held office in their own right (either in a full or acting capacity). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.187.123 (talk) 06:18, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Aciram, why should we remove all the acting presidents and acting PMs from the list? All other acting office holders, except Harris, satisfy the definition of a female HoS or HoG holding office in their own right. If both Biden and Harris left office permanently, and Pelosi became Acting President of the US, she would satisfy the definition of an acting female leader in her own right too. Changing the whole list just because Harris had presidential powers (but not the office itself, and there was no vacancy either) for an hour and a half, would imply that the US gets special treatment. I oppose changing the list, and think that Harris should just be left out. That is the only logical option. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.187.123 (talk) 06:31, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * What is logical is that all presidents/prime ministers have their own list, and all acting presidents/prime ministers (including Harris) have their own list. That is not giving the USA special treatment. That is treating US the same way as all other countries. Its common in all countries for the deputy/vice PM or president to be acting PM/P when the actual PM/president is temporarily unable to perform their duties. Of course they might have different authority depending on their countires constitutions etc but that's not the issue. They were not regular Presidents/PMs, they were acting Presidents/PMs in place of another President/PM who actually had the office. All such as acting Presidents/PMs must be treated the same way, Harris along with the rest of them. The acting-officials should have their own list, just like Vice regal and collective heads of state positions already have. That should not be controversial at all. The article already have that system.--Aciram (talk) 14:58, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I am inclined to agree that all acting officeholders should be moved into a list of their own, but this discussion is prompting another question for me. In Harris's case, she was acting president by virtue of having powers temporarily transferred to her by an incumbent president, while it seems like the other acting officeholders in this article were acting officeholders by virtue of filling a vacant office through constitutional (or de facto) succession rules before a proper successor could be chosen. I think vacant office is a key point here, and before Harris is included in any other hypothetical list of acting officeholders, we need to determine whether we are defining "acting" in that way (as this article's current list of acting officeholders suggests), or else we would probably have to do due diligence on other cases in international politics where powers have been temporarily transferred to a woman while the incumbent was still in office. That sounds to be a daunting task to me, so personally I would prefer the former suggestion of not including Harris and noting what "acting" refers to in this list. Ivy Matsepe-Casaburri would also fall into this Harris category, and I question whether her inclusion is warranted as well. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 15:18, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Aciram, what you are talking about are two totally different things - as Jjjj1238 pointed out. Harris was the only entry on the list who was not holding the office (or the powers of the office) in her own right. None of the other acting office holders listed here were acting FOR someone, they were JUST acting - due to a vacancy in the office itself. In the USA there are two types of acting presidents - 1) when a sitting president (who legally remains the head of state and government during the whole acting period) assigns his powers to a deputy in the line of succession and can also revoke those powers at any time; 2) when both the president and VP leave office without a new VP being appointed under the 25th amendment and the line of succession passes to the speaker and beyond. What all the non-Harris acting cases have in common is that they are legally the head of state and/or head of government, and they are not serving during the period when there is a sitting president or PM. In other words, the acting presidents of Vietnam, Austria, Kosovo etc. who are listed here were not acting FOR a sitting president, they were in fact THE head of state or government themselves. Meanwhile, Harris was acting president FOR Biden, but Biden was president. As for the acting PMs listed here, there is no such thing as an automatic succession. If the British, Greek, Irish etc. PM dies, then the office of PM falls vacant until a successor is appointed. The existence of the government itself is tied to the PM's tenure, and if the PM dies the government itself is dismissed as a whole. So an acting PM (as listed here) is not chairing the cabinet of the deceased or resigned PM, but is in fact heading his own acting cabinet (which is regarded as an entirely new appointment, and not a continuation of the previous PM's cabinet under a new acting leader). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.187.123 (talk) 16:48, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Jjjj1238, the tenure listed for Ivy Matsepe-Casaburri is during a vacancy in the presidency. Mbeki resigned at midnight on 24/25 September 2008, while Motlanthe was elected at around 2 PM on the 25th, and only took the oath at around 5 PM. From midnight until 5 PM, there was no elected president in South Africa. Article 90 of the South African constitution states that: 1. When the President is absent from the Republic or otherwise unable to fulfil the duties of President, or during a vacancy in the office of President, an office-bearer in the order below acts as President: a. The Deputy President., b. A Minister designated by the President., c. A Minister designated by the other members of the Cabinet., d. The Speaker, until the National Assembly designates one of its other members. Matsepe-Casaburri was case C, as Mbeki's Deputy President resigned with him, while he also refused to name a minister under case B. While Matsepe-Casaburri was indeed also acting president FOR Mbeki in 2005, in 2008 (which is the only tenure taken into account here) she was acting president in her own right (i.e. the head of state, head of government, and commander-in-chief of South Africa until a new president is elected and sworn in). Don't be confused by the title being the same in both cases - there are different kinds of acting presidents in all countries, as I pointed out in the US example as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.138.187.123 (talk) 16:59, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that explanation regarding Matsepe-Casaburri. I misread her article and thought the mention of her 2005 acting presidency was the one that we were referring to here. With all that being said, I support separating acting officeholders into a separate list, removing Harris from this list, and making a note as to how we are defining "acting".{ [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 10:42, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Pinging so we can hopefully restart this discussion. <b style="color: #AB2B2B;">{ [ ( jjj</b> <b style="color: #000000;">1238 ) ] }</b> 09:56, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Harris was Acting President for 85 minutes during Biden's colonoscopy. She should be on this list, yes. 174.4.42.149 (talk) 06:11, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Agreed that Harris wasn't "acting president" in the way that phrase has been used in this article for the past decade or so. Consensus has been that we count women as acting head of state or govt when they fill a vacancy, e.g. after a resignation, or if there's a succession crisis. If we want to add cases like Harris's, IMO we need to establish that by consensus first, and of course we'd need to scour the lit for other similar cases in other countries.

We currently count appointed vice-regal reps as heads of state in the maps. Not sure that's the way we should go. Pls discuss in thread below if that should be changed; I don't have a strong opinion either way. — kwami (talk) 23:57, 24 April 2022 (UTC)

I removed Sara Duterte from list for the above reasons. Hetsre (talk) 01:35, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Map issue: UK
Why is the U.K. still showing on the map as having a female HoS. Neither the PM nor monarch are female.

I would change but I do t k ow how to update the map. Jo Jc Jo (talk) 17:47, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

Bosnia
As Cvijanović is not only a member, but currently also a chairwoman of the Presidency, she should be (like, say, Sommaruga of Switzerland) added to the main list of presidents and PMs, and Bosnia should also be colored on the map. 95.155.16.195 (talk) 15:39, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Map
Opening up discussion on the maps featured in the article. I believe it is helpful to have a map to visualize the nations that currently have female heads of government/state, and nations that have ever had female heads of government/state, but I think there are issues that need to be discussed. Previously, the map was easily editable just by editing article, but this map was changed to an uploaded map about a year ago. I had no issue with that, but issues arise when an uploaded map is no longer receiving regular updates, which this one is not.

My preference would be to return to the easily editable map that was previously used on this article if there is not significant interest in providing regular updates to an uploaded map, but am open to hearing others' opinions as well. <b style="color: #AB2B2B;">{ [ ( jjj</b> <b style="color: #000000;">1238 ) ] }</b> 21:04, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Kamala Harris
Is there a reason Kamala Harris cannot be listed as an acting president? cookie monster  755  00:08, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Harris did not temporarily fill a vacated office before a proper successor could be chosen, she had limited powers temporarily transferred to her while the incumbent officeholder was incapacitated. <b style="color: #AB2B2B;">{ [ ( jjj</b> <b style="color: #000000;">1238 ) ] }</b> 03:14, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

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Governors-General?
Governors-General are not heads of state. They're representatives of heads of state. GoodDay (talk) 05:50, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

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