Talk:List of emperors of Ethiopia

I only wanted to say that this table is the most nifty and pleasant-looking rulers' table I've seen. Great job! whoever made it. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 10:44, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)

List Revision
Seeing the note concerning the accuracy of this list of rulers, I consulted some history books on Ethiopia, & created a new table, which I'm proposing to replace the current one with. You can take a look at it at Rulers and Heads of State of Ethiopia/Temp. If no one objects, I'll make the change a week or a little longer from today.

The major changes are:
 * 1) Leaving the dates connected with the Zagwe dynasty blank. The dates -- & even the identity & number of the rulers -- of this dynasty is still hotly disputed by the authorities. Even the advocates of each POV admit that the evidence permits other interpretations. Best to explain this uncertainty in the article on the Zagwe dynasty
 * 2) Separating the civilian & throne names of the emperors. Not in the source John Armagh consulted, &it is an important detail of Ethiopian history.
 * 3) Numerous changes in dates, based on the two principal sources I found. My two principal sources disagree, although in a consistent manner, over a number of the dates. The ones where they can be verified with a European source (e.g. Portuguese travellers), tend to be the most stable; the others undoubtedly fluctuate depending on chronological arguments I have not yet tracked down.
 * 4) Adding the "Era of the Princes" to the table. This is the Ethiopian name for this period in their history -- a time of dynastic confusion. It is also the period I have the least amount of information for at this writing. Until I can dig further into the matter, I'm leaving theis section more or less unchanged.
 * 5) Removed a couple of names, & added "Bakaffa". My sources agreed in that these kings did not exist, & that at the time Bakuffa ruled. I am considering removing the regents for the last years of Menelik II from this table; we don't list the regents from the other periods of Ethiopian history.

My sources are Paul B. Henze's book, Layers of Time: A History of Ethiopia, & from the writings of G.W.B. Huntingford (in his 2 or 3 books about Ethiopia that I've read so far, he consistently uses a chronology at variance with Henze's). -- llywrch 22:33, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Comments? Objections? -- llywrch 22:33, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * The proposed changes appear well-researched - I can't object to the proposal. I haven't got around to quoting my sources for the page, which despite Gzornenplatz's remonstrations, are not from worldstatesmen.org, but rather include Rulers and Governments of the World volumes 1 & 2, African States and Rulers, Monarchs Rulers Dynasties and Kingdoms of the World and http://www.hostkingdom.net/ethiopia.html#Ethiopia. I have found that http://cgca.net/coglinks/wcglit/hh_cmpndm2.txt also gives eras for the earlier Zagwes - though I have only just found it and can't speak to it's reliability as a source as yet. --JohnArmagh 10:26, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Remember that Gzornenplatz was determined by the ArbCom to be Wik under another name; glancing at the entries at hostkingdom.net, a few entries look possibly erroneous to me -- but the web author provides quotations of the Ethiopian List of Kings, a work I've read about concerning earliest Ethiopia, but didn't know how I'd get my hands around a copy.


 * I'm going to wait about a week anyway, John, before I make such a drastic change, just in case someone sees this at the last minute & points out any errors in my work. As the Rastafarian in Neuromancer says, "Measure twice, cut once". -- llywrch 04:43, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I have done a little more net-research - it would appear that the http://cgca.net/coglinks/wcglit/hh_cmpndm2.txt info comes from http://www.rastafari.de/downloads/LineageOfEthiopianMonarchs.pdf, while The Book of Kings referred to by hostkingdom is a translation by E.A. Wallis Budge of the medieval Ethiopian document Kebre Nagast and which I have found at http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/kebra_budge.pdf (part of a quite interesting site http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/). --JohnArmagh 18:21, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Why capital letters?
Why are the initial letters capitalized in Heads of State? Isn't head of state a common noun phrase? Michael Hardy 01:48, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Haile Selassie's titles
Is there any reason we need to list Emepror Haile Selassie's titles? He is the only monarch whose style is given here, & its inclusion is incongruous. -- llywrch 04:21, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Axum, D'mt, and H. Selassie's titles
I am going to add the kings from the article Kings of Axum (a list of kings from c. 100 AD to c. 900 AD), as well as the four known leaders of D'mt (W`RN HYWT, RD'M, RBH, and LMN, in order). I am also deleting Haile Selassie's long list of titles, for both congruency, and also because it implies that he was the only one to use this title (which is not the case).

Yom 06:10, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I think adding those two lists to this one is a bad idea for these reasons:
 * The quality of information between the two lists is far different: the earlier list is a mixure of legend & archeological inference; the later one is historical fact -- even for the Zagwe dynasty. (Although some of the details may be legendary or mythical.)
 * This would make a sizeable article even larger. The beginning of the Zagwe dynasty is a natural breaking point here.
 * There are some legitimate questions over continuity between the pre-Zagwe kings & those afterwards. For example, the Solomonid claimed descent from these earlier kings, but there is no other evidence of continuity between the two states. I feel that this is a situation similar to the issue whether the Frankish kings should be included in the list of French kings -- or kept separate. I don't see the harm in keeping the lists separate. (And then there is the issue that Eritrea also claims continuity between Axum & their state; I am not arguing for this claim, merely mentioning it.)


 * PS -- As you can see above, I agree about the titles of Haile Selassie.


 * FWIW, Kings of Axum probably needs to be re-written. At the moment it only includes rulers who are attested archeologically or in contemporary records up to c.620; the legendary rulers (even if we only know their names) probably should be included. (Depending on what other folks think & how guilty I feel about this, I'll get to this sooner or later.) -- llywrch 19:09, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Note that I already have the D'mt rulers included at Rulers and heads of state of Ethiopia/Temp, but I'm having some technical difficulties. With regards to legendary rulers, I've found a couple of lists of legendary rulers, starting with Makeda and Menelik, but they tend to go on well into the Common Era and conflict with what we know from archaelogical evidence, but I can't find the site right now. Regarding the titles, we can make a note of what titles were taken generally somewhere, as the title Niguse Negest was used from Sembrouthes onward (though I don't think continuously), and definitely continuously during the Solomonic Dynasty. The phrase "Elect of God" (Seyoume Igziabher) was definitely used under Yohannes (I'm not sure when it began though), and the phrase "Conquering Lion of Judah" (Mo'a Anbessa Ze'immeneged Yehuda) definitely precedes Haile Selassie as well.


 * I understand that the list is already long, but there are similarly long lists that are deemed exceptable (e.g. check out the list for rulers of China - now that is excessive). It takes adding the Kings of Axum list three and a half times to the article to make it greater than the 30 KB recommendation. Regarding the degree of continuation of the Zagwe dynasty with the Aksumite one, the Zagwe dynasty definitely controlled less territory than Aksum and had its center farther south (Wag & Lasta vs. Tigray, Hamasien, Sera'e, and Akkele Guzay), but the movement inwards was begun during the Aksumite dynasty not long after Armah. Regarding the reliability of the earlier lists, though some of the kings are known only through legend and archaelogical evidence, there is also corroboration of the existance (and names) of some of the kings; a simple note that dates of rule are tentative and evidence is scarcely attested for some of the kings is all that's needed.


 * Yom 20:42, 20 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yom, you didn't respond to my third point -- which I felt was my strongest. Was that an oversight? If so, do you care to reply? -- llywrch 00:16, 21 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, I did respond, but it wasn't that significant of a response: Regarding the degree of continuation of the Zagwe dynasty with the Aksumite one, the Zagwe dynasty definitely controlled less territory than Aksum and had its center farther south (Wag & Lasta vs. Tigray, Hamasien, Sera'e, and Akkele Guzay), but the movement inwards was begun during the Aksumite dynasty not long after Armah. Like the Sabaean theory, the view that the Zagwe dynasty was only 133 years was proposed by Conti Rossini, but I think scholars today believe in a longer reign, more congruous with the invasion of Bani al-Hamwiyah and the fall of Aksum, though there is still plenty of debate.


 * Yom 08:00, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Zagwe's continuity with Aksum
I found this interesting article on the Zagwe dynasty that makes do with what little archaelogical work has been done (it's a shame, only 3% of Aksum is excavated, and practically nothing of Lasta and Wag - w/o chronicles and the like, we would know practically nothing!). It argues that the Zagwe dynasty was actually a Golden age of Ethiopia and a period of stability and advanced culture, whereas the Solomonic restoration was actually a relative decline. It makes the argument through urbanism and argues that the Zagwe dynasty was a continuation of Aksum (although this is not the major point of the paper) through much of its culture (church building, urbanism, etc., though not in the "priest-king" tradition - interesting how D'mt had priest-kings, too, but a relation is very unlikely). Apparently some of the incongruity may stem from the fact that most known accounts were made during the Solomonic dynasty, which tried to discredit the Zagwe dynasty as illegitimate usurpers. By the way, I really think Solomonid dynasty should be moved to Solomonic dynasty. There is no difference in popularity (10k vs. 10.4k, but a lot are probably wiki mirrors), but the latter is makes more sense. Google offers the correction -ic as opposed to -id (-ic as in derived from Solomon, as opposed to -id which is more like oid, meaning something similar to "like Solomon").

Tekeste Negash: The Zagwe period re-interpreted: post-Aksumite Ethiopian urban culture

Yom 07:57, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Zagwe Dates
An anonymous user keeps adding the traditional 40 year reigns for the Zagwe dates, when they aren't at all agreed upon. Firstly, there are two traditional lists (one with only 5 rulers and only 133 years long), and secondly, historians don't agree at all with the 40 year reigns for all those kings, as it would be very unlikely. Moreover, 916 doesn't fit with the other dates that have been proposed for the fall of Aksum/Post-Aksumite period, which would have happened either 950 AD or 850 AD according to current evidence. &mdash; ዮም   (Yom)  |  contribs  •  Talk  •  E  18:56, 27 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Despite Yom's attempts to start a conversation on these edits, this anon editor has pushed his preferred version 3 times without explaining her/his reasons; this is becoming an edit war. As a result, I have semi-protected this article -- which means anon editors & newly-registered editors cannot edit it. If the person who has been making these edits will respond to Yom's requests, I will remove this protection. -- llywrch 16:18, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Note: this was later lifted. Our anon editor (whose IPs indicate that he is a Serbian BroadBand (SBB) user) immediately reverted to his version without discussion, & I reverted him in turn, & left a message (which he might read). So far, that's all that has happened. -- llywrch 21:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:List_of_Federal_Presidents_of_Austria - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. 05:55, 19 July 2012

Move discussion in progress
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Alchitrof
This is a picture of "Alchitrof, Emperor of Ethiopia" as it can be seen in the Uffizi in Florence. In the list I cannot find a person whose name resmebles that of "Alchitrof." Can anyone tell which king is meant to be represented by this painting? Thanks in advance, Jeff5102 (talk) 18:01, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


 * @Jeff5102 Hello. I know it's been over a decade since this question was asked, but I've made a page for Alchitrof. In short, he's not a historical figure, but rather an "imagined" ruler. And Leave (talk) 09:45, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

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Inclusion of the House of Savoy
The section on Victor Emmanuel III, who claimed the title of Emperor during the Italian occupation, has been removed a few times by different users. What is the concensus on how to approach this? While he is not commonly accepted as Emperor by Ethiopians, he did technically claim the title. Other monarch lists on Wikipedia include monarchs who are not commonly accepted by the modern day people of those countries, such as List of English monarchs including Louis VIII of France who often isn't recognised as a monarch of England, though technically he was. -- User:And Leave (talk) 11:04, 23 March 2022 (GMT)