Talk:List of extreme points of the United States/Archive 1

Do east and west even exist at all?
East and West are contrived concepts. Zero degrees longitude was designated without any geoscientific basis. What if some Indian in 1550 AD decided to draw zero degrees on his map through modern day Chicago. Well Chicago, and all points lying on that line of long would then be eastern AND westernmost. The only physical relevance is in north and south extremes. People can't mess with the earth's axis. East and West? I'm sorry Maine, but they are trivial concepts. Alaska, be happy with all you northernmost accolades; Maine, hey you still have great lobster.--RichOchoa —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.100.104.17 (talk) 19:31, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Regarding the lowest elevation, the article states: "Badwater Basin (Death Valley), California (-282 feet / -86 meters) — lowest point in all of US territory." This is not correct. The lowest point is the bottom of the Lake Superior rift valley (in Michigan) at 733 feet below sea level. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.42.71.103 (talk) 18:25, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Gene has it wrong below. The international date line, nor political boundaries, do not "override" the globe's latitude and longitude system which determines east and west. Nearly all geographic sources agree with this; thus, though it may seem odd to us, it doesn't to a Russian or Japanese person: both the eastern and westernmost points in the U.S. are in the Aleutians. ..... Office of the Geographer, US State Dept. Dlinth

Isn't the easternmost point in the United States somewhere in the Aleutian Islands? Since the Islands cross the 180th meridian, those closest to Russia are technically in the East. After all, the Alaska article states something to the effect that it is both the easternmost and westernmost state in the union...we can't have an inconsistency in Wikipedia! 141.149.47.43 01:21, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree with this. 179.59.59 E is in Alaska. 179.59.59 W is in Alaska. Other arguments depend on personal feeling rather than "What is most easterly, and what is most westerly?"Jeff 18:22, 27 June 2007 (UTC)JFrawley032759Jeff 18:22, 27 June 2007 (UTC)


 * No, the concepts of westernmost and easternmost are independent of the choice of a Prime Meridian. The westernmost point is the point which can be reached from the rest of the United States in a shorter distance by traveling in a westerly direction than it can be reached by traveling in an easterly direction.  Gene Nygaard 12:40, 23 July 2005 (UTC)


 * According to the world almanac 2005 the most eastern point in the Superlative U.S. (the 50 states) is Pochoni Point, Semisopochnoi Island, AK --68.37.60.151 03:04, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Shouldn't the southernmost point in the U.S. be Rose Atoll, rather than Steps Point, American Samoa? Rose Atoll, as far as I can tell, is part of American Samoa, is a U.S. wildlike refuge (even though it's all of about 10 acres), and is located about 10' SOUTH of Steps Point (14° 33' S as opposed to 14° 23')... 63.138.35.190 19:24, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

The maps I checked seem to indicate that you are correct. I have changed Steps Point to Rose Atoll.

Lowest major city is New Orleans at -15 ft. There is an indian village in Death Valley National Park with a couple hundred people that is the lowest town. I can't remember the name off hand, but I'll post it after I rack my brain a while. Dr U 01:40, 1 November 2005 (UTC) Dr U 21:04, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

How can the easternmost point in the 50 States be in one place (Alaska), while the easternmost point "on the North American continent" is in another State (Maine)? -- Alaska is on the North American continent, as evidenced by other records in the category.

Ahh, I get it now. Islands aren't considered to be part of the continent. d'oh.

Furnace Creek is not actually an incorporated city or even a census-designated place, my guess is that the lowest town in the u.s. would be somewhere around the Salton Sea.

Follow the link!!! It says that it Furnace Creek IS a census designated place in the 1st paragraph of that article!

Definition of contiguous United States
As I understand what is meant by "contiguous United States", points that require crossing water or passing through another country should not be included. This would mean that all four of the cardinal extremes of the contiguous US section are wrong: three are islands, and the Northwest Angle can only be reached by crossing the Lake of the Woods or through Canada. Kafinvan 22:27, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Eastern border in Alaska
It's ridiculous and pedantic to place the eastern border in Alaska. At least there should be a note explaining why, and the real eastern border right next to it. —Cantus&hellip; &#9742;   15:00, 11 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Totally agree. A map depicting the entire expanse/extent and relative location(s) of the territory that makes up the United States is highly unlikely to place bits of Alaska over at the right-hand end merely for the purpose of drawing attention to longitude degrees. See also Geography of Kiribati. //Big Adamsky 15:54, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree as well. If you travel east from Semisopochnoi Island, you are still in the US. The easternmost point and municipality should be in Maine. --Lasunncty 23:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, and so does the picture. Is 4 of 4 considered a consensus? 1.618033989 23:10, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, I would not concur. I have always regarded the easternmost point as being in the Aleutians.  I think an objective observer would see it as such.  Consider this:  What if there was a country that went all the way around the world, all 360 degrees of longitude?  What then would be the "easternmost" point?  I think that there would be little dispute that it would be the piece of land laying at 179.99 degrees east longitude.  I'm willing to consider arguments, but given the nature of east and west, I'm leaning towards Alaska as having all the extreme points of the US other than southern.  Of course, Maine is the easternmost point when considering the contiguous states. Unschool 05:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I realize there is a dispute as to how one determines the easternmost and westernmost points. I reverted back to a version that gives consideration to all three methods discussed. Perhaps this page needs to be reorganized so as to better reflect a NPOV. --Lasunncty 06:30, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

This article really needs tightening up on this issue. It makes references to "common sense" and "if one defines..." without making any effort to say why this is reasonable. The easternmost point of the United States is simply in Alaska. If one wants to include the place on the east coast, then it needs to be in terms something like "the last point of the United States one could reach when travelling east from the centre of and continuously within the United States". That is a fairly pointless geographical location to include, but if it is wanted then it still cannot claim to be "easternmost". This is all tied in with the fact that people tend to conflate the International Date Line with the 180-degree meridian, as exemplified by the attempt to use the date in one version of easternmostness in this article. If one wants to mention the point which the the sun reaches first on each date, fine - but let's not pretend that that is the easternmost point. Salopian (talk) 13:02, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as there is no East Pole or West Pole, it is impossible for Alaska to be the Eastern most State. When you are on the very edge of Alaska, you are looking West, not East. Alaska is the Western most State, Maine is the Eastern. Anything else is playing semantics with an artificial dateline construction. Alyeska (talk) 23:55, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Machias seal island - not east of West Quoddy Head
A footnote currently reads:

''3 The ownership of Machias Seal Island is disputed between the U.S. and Canada. If one considers this to be U.S. Territory, then it is the easternmost point in the 48 contiguous states, coordinates: 44°30′10″N, 67°06′10″W''

But per multiple sources such as http://www.westquoddy.com/wq_faq.htm, http://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/lighthouses/object.cfm?id=217 , and Wikipedia itself at Lubec, Maine, the longitude of West Quoddy Head, ME, is 44° 49' N 66° 57' W, placing it well east of Machias Seal Island. So it wouldn't matter who owns Machias Seal Island, since West Quoddy Head is east of it anyway.

Is the location of Machias Seal Island wrong? Or did someone just misread its longitude?Derek Balsam 15:19, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Multiple sources indicate that this footnote is incorrect; Machias Seal Island and it associated islet North Rock both lie to the west of West Quoddy Head. I will correct this.Derek Balsam 21:36, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Alma vs Winter Park, Colorado
Alma CO is 1t 10,000 + feet - making it far higher than Winter Park. It is the highest point in the contenental US. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 198.133.100.133 (talk • contribs)  18:01, 22 August 2006.
 * The Alma, Colorado and Winter Park, Colorado articles both make the claim that they are highest. Per the Winter Park article, it recently annexed a ski resort making it higher. It's not clear which is correct. But right now both articles claim each is the highest....Derek Balsam 23:55, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Just recently Winter Park, Co became the highest after the ski area aprox(12,000ft) was annexed in to the town. -Darkshark0159

This discussion can be found in a similar form at Talk: Alma, Colorado and Talk:Winter Park, Colorado Darkshark0159 17:14, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * And also at Talk:Leadville, Colorado where they (we?) still claim to be the highest incorporated city in the US, even going as far as to threaten to annex Mount Elbert --Mdwyer 03:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Leadville still is the highest city. Places such as Wp and Alma are part of the highest town debate. All three are incorporated.

Northernmost City?
I see that Seattle is listed as the northernmost City in the continental US. I lived there and have also lived in Bellingham, WA, which is a city a couple hours north. Seattle may be the northernmost major city, by whatever that may be defined? I doubt it. I love Seattle, but I doubt it. There are places further north like Sumas which is right on the border with Canada. Other states probably have similar claims. For that matter, the article says "continental United States" Barrow Alaska is in the continental, but not contiguous US. I'll make that change. As to Seattle? Where is the northernmost? Sumas? Anyone? Wiredrabbit (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 03:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC).

Closest to equator
blacklisted domain source - couldn't find similar text still looking. Zotel - the Stub Maker (talk) 14:28, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Longitude and the Aleutians
You know, if you go by the lat/lon numbers, there are US islands in the Aleutian chain that have longitudes close to 180 deg East. That's way farther east than Maine.

little globe thingy
I just added info on Anc

little globe thingy
I just added info on Anchor Point Alaska being the westernmost point on the continuous highway system, with a ref and coordinates, but I don't know how to do the fancy little trick with the little globe that links to a map that many of the other entries have. Little help? Beeblebrox (talk) 20:01, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Deepest / Farthest below water surface
As the claim is worded, Lake Superior is much deeper than Puget Sound. But, since Lake Superior's surface is at about 600 feet above sea level, the bottom of Puget Sound has a point that is farther below sea level than the depths of Lake Superior.

The unreferenced claim for Puget Sound that I removed called out a depth of 933 feet. With a good, although not comprehensive, look at the appropriate chart, I could not find a 933 foot depth -- the deepest sounding I found was 756 feet, between Alki Point and Decatur reef.

Unless someone can find the 933 foot depth, I will soon add the 756 foot Puget Sound depth as "Deepest depth below sea level" to the list. I will also set coords for both.. . . . Jim. . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 11:48, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The calculations here are:
 * Lake Superior: Sounding is 1,333 feet.  Chart datum (as given on chart 14963) is 601.1 feet above mean sea level at Rimouski, Quebec (at the mouth of the Saint Lawrence River, the entrance to the Great Lakes).  Ignoring the fact that mean sea level at Rimouski may be several feet different from the general mean sea level used for other charts and maps, we can say that the deepest point in Lake Superior is 732 feet below sea level.  I'm a little concerned that we're playing loose and free with precision here -- I might prefer to say "approximately 730 feet" or even "approximately 700 feet", but I think that will confuse more than it will help and it doesn't really matter as the nearest competitor is 200 feet away.


 * Puget Sound: Sounding is 949 feet.  Chart datum is lower low water.  Mean high water, as tabulated on the chart is 10.5 feet. Mean low water is 2.8 feet.  Therefore, mean sea level is 6.65 feet above the chart datum (this is not exactly right, but close enough) or approximately 7 feet when rounded appropriately. Therefore, the sounding is 956 feet below mean sea level at Madison Point, Puget Sound. The same caution that this isn't a general mean sea level applies. . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs)  13:33, 18 December 2009 (UTC)


 * -I see now that I misread the information on chart 18446 about the surface level of the water in Puget Sound. I'm just trying to make sure I understand it now.  From your calculations it seems that you're saying the mean level of the water is equivalent to sea level.  Would that be correct?  --Lasunncty (talk) 07:26, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The easy answer is "yes". "Sea level" or "mean sea level", from which all elevations in this list are measured, is a construct which has many variables, but it boils down to tide gauges at many points around the coast constantly recording the height of the water. Mean Sea Level is the average of all these measurements.  Since the mariner doesn't care about the Mean Sea Level, but only highs (how much clearance under a bridge) and lows (how much water under the keel), Mean Sea Level doesn't appear on nautical charts.


 * I approximated it as follows:
 * Puget Sound, like most places, has two tides each day. The two highs and two lows are not the same height. The numbers look like this, top to bottom:
 * Mean Higher High Water - the average of all of the higher of the two high tides each day
 * Mean High Water -- the average of all high tides
 * Mean Sea Level (not on the chart) -- the average level of the sea
 * Mean Low Water -- the average of all low tides
 * Mean Lower Low Water -- (the chart datum) the average of all of the lower of the two tides each day.
 * Extreme Low Water -- the lowest recorded water level
 * If you assume that the tidal level plots as a perfect sine curve each day, then Mean Sea Level would be the average of Mean High Water and Mean Low Water. Since it's not a perfect sine curve, for a variety of reasons, including rivers, the shape of the inlet, and so forth, Mean Sea Level will not be exactly the average of Mean High Water and Mean Low Water, but it will be close, probably within a foot here.. . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 12:18, 19 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you, that makes sense. I guess the point I was getting at, though, was if you considered Puget Sound to be equivalent to "the sea".  Lake Superior, for instance, is ~600 feet above sea level, but is Puget Sound at sea level?  --Lasunncty (talk) 08:35, 20 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Good question. That's why I was careful to point out that mean sea level at Rimouski is not necessarily the same as at Puget Sound. Neither will match the datum used for elevations for the USA.


 * There's more than you ever wanted to know at the datum information for Seattle, the nearest reference tide station and its various helps and FAQs. . . . . Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 16:11, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Most remote point in all US territory
This is a candidate and is my basis for changing the claimant in Alaska to "most remote in the 50 states", but I'm not sure it's actually the most remote of all -- it needs a little more work in the Pacific to prove.
 * Most remote point in all U.S. territory: Howland Island, 0.80194°N, -176.63417°W, 422 miles (680 km) from Kanton Island, Kiribati, which itself has a population of only 41

. . . . Jim. . . . Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs) 15:59, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

coordinate precision: too much?
Some of the degree coordinates have 12 or 13 digits past the decimal point, meaning that the imprecision in the last digit is on the order of a micrometer or less. What is the rationale for such excessive precision? I am going to round these to a more reasonable precision in the meantime. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 18:07, 13 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I got those coordinates from the US Census boundary files for these locations. I don't know if they really measured it to that precision or not.  --Lasunncty (talk) 23:39, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Easternmost point of the USA.... by direction of travel?
I am responding to your revision to the eastern most point in the USA (Pt Udall, St Croix, USVI)

I had edited the St Croix location out of 'most eastern point' because it is not the most eastern point of the USA. The US has Pacific island territories (such as Guam) that are located farther east than any US territory in the Caribbean.

Previously, it had been stated that the St Croix point was the most eastern point 'by direction of travel'... this is a random measurement system. If you are considering it the most eastern point by direction of travel via boat, the US Pacific islands (Minor Outlying Islands) are still farther east. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.8.66.103 (talk) 06:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Fundamentally the definition of "by direction of travel" is if you begin in the geographic center of the United States and travel to point X by the shortest possible route, then the farthest such point reachable by traveling east is Point Udall in the Virgin Islands. The points in the Pacific do not qualify because their shortest possible routes require traveling west.
 * Or, as a graphic example, imagine drawing a line around all US territory, shrinking the line to its minimum possible length, and filling in all the oceans within the line. The Virgin Islands would then be the farthest east you could walk on the new land mass and Guam would be the farthest west.
 * Or, if you prefer, use a map with the Prime Meridian at Washington DC. Such maps were common in the nineteenth century.  On such a map, The Virgin Islands would have the largest east longitude and Guam the farthest west.. . Jim - Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs)  22:50, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your reponse. I am unable to find any definition of 'direction of travel' that correlates your definition. Please post some sites that would clarify. I am also unsure of the true value of this system of measurement in this case. It seems to cause more confusion than anything else by allowing someone to arbitrarily locate a Prime Meridian anywhere they chose. Using this logic, I could place the Prime Meridian anywhere I chose, effectively negating its practical usefulness. I could understand this being used on maps 200 years ago, but those same maps are not used today due to their 'inaccuracies'. If the extreme points of the USA are going to be listed, I don't see how this helps clarify the situation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.8.66.103 (talk) 21:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I'm out of explanation -- it seems very simple to me -- it's the farthest point you can travel to in an easterly direction and still be in the USA without traveling more than half way around the world. The definition doesn't depend on where the Prime Meridian is; in fact, it ignores the Prime Meridian. And, by the way, the entirely separate question of what to use as the Prime Meridian has not been settled for as long as you think -- I own a French chart issued less than 40 years ago that shows the PM at Paris. . . Jim - Jameslwoodward (talk • contribs)  22:34, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I also have a problem with this being the easternmost point (by travel). Very dubious distinction. If you travel East you get to The Aleutian Islands regardless of the distance traveled, it's still the furthest East. Someone I know quoted this "fact" and I thought no way. Direction of travel is also invalid. Metricmike (talk) 12:02, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

I've been to both Guam and St Croix and it entirely depends on how you measure it. If you measure from the geographical center of the US (roughly in Kansas, the furthest east you can go (without having a shorter route to the same place by going west) is St Croix. Note that their East & West geographical coordinates are irrelevant for this discussion. I COMPLETELY agree that geographically/longitudinally, Alaska claims North, East, and West. Buffs (talk) 18:11, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

This "direction of travel" for determining east west seems to be a silly construct that is unique to Wikipedia. It requires us to put the US as the center of the universe and seems to violate WP:WV--Drewder (talk) 12:15, 18 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually, it is not US-centric at all. This same standard would apply to any country whose territory spans the dateline.  It avoids the obvious weirdness of having the easternmost point and the westernmost point be microns apart. YBG (talk) 00:44, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Extremes of Habitation, etc.
It would be of interest to know the limits of habitation, both for private residences and for residences to which staff are posted. In particular, is the part of Alaska which is in the Eastern hemisphere inhabited at all? 94.30.84.71 (talk) 11:58, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Also, how about considering the circumscribing circles of the whole 48 States and of the whole 50 States, both by territory and by habitation? 94.30.84.71 (talk) 11:58, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

And how about the contiguous mainland - the points which in principle be reached without crossing water? 94.30.84.71 (talk) 11:58, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

If it is legitimate to consider one point in the Amundsen-Scott South Pole Station as being southernmost, then the Station must contain a line one side of which is Easternmost by longitude and the other Westernmost. 94.30.84.71 (talk) 11:58, 3 July 2011 (UTC)


 * To answer at least one of your questions, please read the article on Attu Island. Backspace (talk) 22:08, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Reorganize East-West
Once again someone tried made a 'correction' based on not reading or not understanding the information in the detailed note at the bottom of the article, clearly referenced at the end of the lead. This might be avoided in the future if we had separate sections The last two sections could begin with introductory text taken from notes section. Any comments? YBG (talk) 06:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Easternmost & Westernmost in the contiguous states
 * Easternmost & Westernmost by longitude
 * First sunrise & last sunset

On another point, I have issues with the descriptions of Cape Alava, Cape Blanco, and Cape Mendocino. Does the terminology "miles east of" or "miles west of" have any real meaning when these places are at different latitudes? Backspace (talk) 21:44, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Easternmost points
Currently the section "Easternmost points" gives


 * Eastport, Maine — easternmost incorporated city[2]
 * Calais, Maine — easternmost city of more than 2500 residents
 * Houlton, Maine — easternmost town of more than 5000 residents
 * Bangor, Maine — easternmost city of more than 20,000 residents
 * Portland, Maine — easternmost city of more than 50,000 residents

The comparable items in "Westernmost points" include the phrase "in the 48 contiguous states", and I believe the above should include that as well (or, "in the 50 states"), to be clear that US possessions are not included. Otherwise I presume the correct answers would be San Juan and others in Puerto Rico for the first, fourth, and fifth items, Christiansted, USVI for the second one, and Charlotte Amalie, USVI for the third one.

Also, "by direction of travel" should probably be inserted to be clear that e.g. the municipality of Saipan is excluded.

For that matter, maybe several versions should be included: "easternmost...in the 50 states", and "easternmost...in all U.S. controlled territory, by direction of travel", and "easternmost...in all U.S. controlled territory, by longitude". Duoduoduo (talk) 13:52, 18 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Good point. I have added the qualifier to each of those statements. --Lasunncty (talk) 10:05, 25 February 2013 (UTC)


 * And I have now added some places outside the 50 states. --Lasunncty (talk) 23:16, 25 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Great! Thanks! Duoduoduo (talk) 00:21, 26 February 2013 (UTC)


 * But I didn't think Christiansted, USVI, was incorporated. Are you sure about that? Duoduoduo (talk) 00:28, 26 February 2013 (UTC)


 * It is according to the Census Bureau. --Lasunncty (talk) 13:58, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Islands
That list degenerated into superlatives (Not points) by locales within the US and don't apply to the US as a whole. an island smaller than Hawai'i cannot be an "Extreme points of the United States" any more, it might be an extreme point within whatever location has been highlights (Puget Sound for example) but obviously not the US. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ojmorales0002 (talk • contribs) 00:37, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

World's most voluminous lake
While Lake Superior has, by far, the largest surface area it is by no means the most voluminous freshwater lake in the world. Lake Baikal contains more than twice as much water as Lake Superior, despite having less than half the surface area. Jh338 (talk) 04:57, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The reference has been changed. You could have Boldly done the same yourself! YBG (talk) 05:19, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Geographic center of North America vs. Geographic Center of the North American Continent??
"International Falls, Minnesota Geographic center of North America, near the 49th parallel. Distance from ocean about 1,600 miles (2,600 km). 48°35′N 93°24′W

...

The geographic center of the North American continent is located at 48°10′N 100°10′W, about 6 miles (10 km) west of Balta in Pierce County, North Dakota."

What's the difference? -- megA (talk) 18:36, 16 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Good point. A google search yielded no results for International Falls being the center (other than this page), so I'll remove that one.  --Lasunncty (talk) 01:56, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

DMS/DD
Some coordinates are Degree-Minute-Second, some are decimal. Please make them all the same system. Jidanni (talk) 21:51, 12 July 2015 (UTC) Good point. I presume the wikitext is the same as the source reference, and I think that should remain unchanged. But it would be good to use convert or some other tool so that the text visible to the reader would be consistent. I may get to this, but I'm not promising. YBG (talk) 00:48, 13 July 2015 (UTC)