Talk:List of family relations in the NHL/Archive 1

Should include, all relations
This article (as it grows), should also include (along with "Brothers" & "Father-Sons" sections, "Uncle-Nephews", "Brother-Sister", "Mother-Daughters" & "Cousins". GoodDay 01:01, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * As requested, I've added a reference to this article (The Hockey Hall of Fame), which I drew from, for the information in this article. GoodDay 03:53, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Sisters? Mothers?  Anyway, I've created a Category for NHL Families, so please go through applicable entries and add the NHL Families category...for those who don't know how to do that add this to the end of those pages...

Admittly, there're few Sisters ,Mothers to fill such proposed sections. But remember this article isn't limited to "former players/players". Families in NHL ownership, management, coaching, officating & a combination of all - Example: former coach Bob Johnson & son former player Mark Johnson, would still go under Father-Son(s) section. In ownership: Bruce Norris & his sister (can't think of her name), would be under a Brother-Sister section - would belong in the article. GoodDay 15:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Interesting...thanks. I wasn't sure where you were going with the women. --BLlewellyn


 * What should we do about cousins w/o the same last name? For instance, what if all the Millers were maternal cousins?  How should it be listed? --BLlewellyn
 * Well, the only solution that I can come up with, is the one I used Wendel Clark, Joe Kocur & Barry Melrose. I put them in Surname alphabetical order & with the First surname (in this case Clark), determining where alphabetically to list them in the cousins section. However, if you or anyone can come up with a better solution, then please do. The idea is, to keep improving the Article, your help & ideas will benefit the Article GoodDay 14:19, 10 December

2005 (UTC)

Better Way to show large families
Can anyone think of a better way to show families like the Hulls or Howes. Listing them under Brothers, Fathers/Sons, and Nephews/Uncles seems almost redundant, and there must be a better way to show it.

Also, I took Shayne Corson/Darcy Tucker out of Cousins. They are actually Brothers in Law (Darcy married Shaynes sister.. or possibly vice versa) Priester 11:47, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I've made the "Uncle-Nephews" list smaller, by removing names, that are already in the "Brothers" & "Father-Sons" sections. GoodDay 23:57, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Who added the flags?
Like it...good job.

Troy Crosby?
Yes, Troy is Sidney Crosby's father, and yes he was drafted by the Montreal Canadiens. However Troy Crosby never played a single NHL game, or Managed, Coached, or refereed/linsemen a game. The only claim to fame (that I know of), is he sired Sidney, is this enough to add his name? Since this is just my PoV, I won't remove the "Crosby" entry on the "Father-Son(s)" list. GoodDay 15:13, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that they don't really belong. Walter Gretzky isn't on the list, and I'd say he is more well known than Troy Crosby is. I know its a bit different because Troy was drafted, but I would still say they should be removed. Priester 07:40, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Flags
The flags are nice. But why no international ones? Does anyone want to do it? If not, I will do it later. Canuck89 00:46, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Criteria
Is there any criteria set for this article? I'm contemplating adding Keith Gretzky to the entry for Wanyne and Brent, as he was drafted (by the Sabres in 85) but never played a game. I'm guessing the criteria is that the relative has to have played in the NHL. Am I right? Yankees76 22:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Also what about brothers where one brother was a player and the other was a referee? Two that come to mind are Art and Glen Skov as well as Marty and Matt Pavelich. Yankees76 14:18, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Just my opinon. K.Gretzky wouldn't belong, however the Skov & Pavelich brothers would. This critera has caused Troy Crosby-Sidney Crosby to be removed (T.Crosby a draftee never played an NHL game). The only possible way, one can be listed in the article (without playing an NHL game) is as an offical, coach, GM, owner. Again It's just my opinon, the Wikipedia community would have the final word. GoodDay 15:05, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree. GoodDay's criteria seems fair. The only way the other person can be listed is if they were an official, coach, GM, or Owner. Drafted players who have not played a game should not count. Canuck89 16:02, 16 March 2006 (UTC)


 * What about NHL scouts? Yankees76
 * Why not? But again, the Wiki community has the final word. GoodDay 16:11, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
 * True. BTW Keith is a scout for the Coyotes. Sorta made the NHL after all... Yankees76 01:43, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Samuelsson Brothers
Can someone please provide a verifiable reference that shows Ulf and Kjell are not brothers? I've provided a link that states "Philadelphia assistant coach Kjell Samuelsson is the brother of former AHL defenseman Ulf Samuelsson", taken from the AHL's official website (a verifiable source). The Hockey Draft Central site is a personal website owned by a guy named Daniel L. David, and cannot be considered verifiable (plus it never says they aren't brothers). Other than an obscure Scott Cullen column on TSN, I can't find any information that these two are not related. Please provide a source. Yankees76 16:23, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Never mind. Upon further review it appears that the information on www.theAHL.com is incorrect. Ufl and Kjell are not related. My error. Yankees76 16:34, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * It's been pointed out that Hockey Draft Central (as a personal website) isn't a verifiable source. I was wondering, would the Wiki Community wish me to remove it from the article (Leaving only the HHOF reference)? GoodDay 18:26, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Thornton cousins
While it is known that Scott and Joe Thornton are cousins, does anyone have any source that Shawn Thorton is related to them, too? I noticed this entry and I can't seem to find any information that verifies that claim. NeoChaosX 06:42, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
 * If there are no objections or verfications, I'm removing it. NeoChaosX 20:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Where did you find the info saying they're related? (just curious). Yankees76 15:28, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It was brought up by the Sharks' radio announcer during a broadcast of the Sharks-Ducks preseason game. I'm thinking of undoing that change again, though, since I still can't find anything that verifies the relation. NeoChaosX [ talk | contribs ] 06:47, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I've found nothing that supports it either. Yankees76 19:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Lundqvist twins
How about Henrik and Joel Lundqvist, they are twins and Joel has recently signed a contract with the Dallas Stars. --Krm500 01:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Only if/when Joel attends his first game (with the Stars), in the regular season or playoffs. Heck, even if he's just on the Stars bench (as a backup). GoodDay 13:18, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Joel is not a goalie, he is a center, he won gold with team Sweden in the WHC this year.--Krm500 22:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Oops! Sorry, was half-asleep. If/when Joel is suited up for a 'Dallas Stars' regular season or playoffs game, then add him to the article. However, again the Wiki community has the final word. GoodDay 13:34, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Jordan Staal - read before adding
Guys, please do not add siblings etc. that haven't done anything in the NHL. As noted above (in the Troy Crosby case in particular), being drafted doesn't warrant inclusion into this article. So wait Jordan actually suits up before throwing his (or other players) names on the list. There are no prizes in Wikipedia for being the first person make the edit. Yankees76 18:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Accuracy of the article title
Just looking over the list and thinking about it and the article title, I have a question. It may sound flippant, but I think it needs to be asked.

Just what in the world is the word 'notable' doing there?

Seriously, take a look at the list. Are Kris and Randy Manery notable? (better question from me: just who the heck are they, period?) The Pooley twins? The Bordeleaus? Families? Yes. Notable? Hardly.

Either we need to get rid of the word 'notable' from the title or the article needs serious filtering. Aottley 02:58, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * If you know how to change the title, go ahead. The idea of Wikipedia is to improve articles, your idea's are as welcomed & as important as anyone's. How about, Families in the NHL. GoodDay 12:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Done. I've changed the title to remove the word "notable" and to denote that it's a list.  I've also fixed the resulting double-redirects. Aottley 19:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed
Pat and Tim Verbeek in the cousins category.Since Tim did not play a single game in the NHL, he IMO does not belong on this list, even thought he did play in the AHL. -The Dude 2

Lefleys
What about Chuck and Bryan Lefley?
 * Just added them to the 'brothers' section, thanks for pointing out their absence. GoodDay 20:02, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

October 17 edits by 207.6.56.91
I just reverted a laundry list of additions including Sebastian Bach (!), Manon Rheume, Hayley Wickenheiser, Chris Jericho and others who unfortuneately do not qualify for inclusion in this article. Remember, to be listed here, the person must have either played, coached, owned, be a scout, referee or have otherwise made it to the NHL in some capacity during the regular season. Being notable and related to a hockey player (Bach), or the sister of a hockey player (Cammi Granato) doesn't count. If I reverted any legitimate entries, I apologize, but 207.6.56.91 did not do an entry summary for any of his/her edits. Thanks Yankees76 03:27, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

The Staal Brothers
If I got $1,000 for everytime an anon-user added Marc and/or Jared Staal to this list, I'd soon be able to buyout Donald Trump, the Rockefellers and the Irvings combined. Please, to all you anon-users (out there): Until Marc Staal AND/OR Jared Staal have played an NHL regulation game OR NHL playoff game; STOP adding their names to this list. See above, this 'talk' page's entry 'Criteria'. GoodDay 16:53, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Is this article in violation of WP:NOT?
I think it might be. Thoughts? -- weirdoactor tundefinedc 17:06, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, it is in violation if the people listed are not noteworthy. I'm assuming NHL players/former players, owners/former owners, GMs/former GMs, coaches/former coaches & scouts/former scouts are noteworthy? If you're concerned about the wiki-links to other articles? I'm even less sure about that. My solutions would be to have an Administrator check this article over, then decide (keep article/delete) or nominate this article for deletion (reach a consensus). GoodDay 19:38, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * That sounds good. should we post on WP:AN, or open an RfC? -- weirdoactor tundefinedc 19:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Since, many users have participated on this article, I'd recommend an Rfc. However, you have the right to post on WP:AN. The decision is ultimately yours. GoodDay 20:10, 21 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Having conferred with a reliable sounding board for issues such as these; I don't think WP:AN is the proper place to post about this; and an RfC seems a bit too much as well. I also don't think an AfD is the way to go at this point, but I'd like to see the article become more of an actual encyclopedic article, and less "listy". If I saw an AfD for this, I'd either vote "Weak Delete" or "Merge" (into what article, though? The NHLPA? I don't see that.); but I see that a lot of hard work has gone into this article, and would want that to be preserved somehow. Can the lists be turned into a more encyclopedic article? -- weirdoactor tundefinedc 20:56, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Sure it could (be more encylopedic). An introduction section would work. I'll create one, add whatever you wish to improve it. GoodDay 21:09, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds good; I'll do what I can to help. I'm probably a better editor/tweaker of the work of others than anything else; so I'll have a look, and let you know what, if any, improvements might help. Thanks! -- weirdoactor tundefinedc 21:14, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

(de-indenting) 'Admitted, female relations are rare in the NHL, however they exist. Fixing 'title sections' to reflect both genders' - because they are so rare, maybe they could have their own section; so that the other sections don't have be so gender-neutral? It makes for an odd look. If the PC language police have a problem with that; ask them about this page, and why there isn't a separate "danseur" article. Heh. -- weirdoactor tundefinedc 21:48, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Given title-sections a simplier neutral view. Added Marguerite Norris to article. GoodDay 22:02, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Comment Now what's with this aunts - nephews nonsense?? This isn't a matter of political correctness, such relations shouldn't be a header until one exists. Theres no other way to describe its appearance other than stupid. The only correct header would be Siblings as Manon Rheaume, the only female NHL player/goalie ever, has a brother Pascal Rheaume in the NHL. She also never played a regular season game, she played 2 or 3 preseason games in her NHL 'career'. Also family relations is an important part of hockey, as you can see by the number of brothers, fathers and sons, etc who played. -RiverHockey 19:14, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * My edits aren't written in stone, change whatever you don't like in the article. You're contributions to this article are as important as mine or anyother users' contributions. Add or subtract, whatever you want. GoodDay 20:04, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks GoodDay, great article and contributions by the way. -RiverHockey 20:59, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Diacritics
Removed diacritics from Surnames, the given names are wiki-linked to their respective bio-articles (that should satisfy pro-diacritic editors). This is an English Wikipedia article. GoodDay 21:06, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Joffrey and Gary Lupul
Just for the record the current Oiler and former Canuck are not related. His father's name is Craig. . Thanks. Yankees76 06:13, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Manon Rheaume
Just before this escalates into an edit war, I would like to bring this issue up. The criteria for this inclusion onto this page is to have played, coached, refereed, managed, owned or scouted in the NHL during the regular season. While Rheaume played 2 exhbition games in two separate seasons, I don't beleive she qualifies for inclusion, the same way Marc Staal and Troy Crosby do not qualify. However I think we need to ensure all points are heard on this first. Post below. Yankees76 19:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I do think players of note should be included here. It doesn't say that it has to be during regular season. I do think in other articles that not including them would make sense but since we include refs, managers, owners and scouts in the article. I think a player as important as Manon Rheaume is a perfect example of why exhibition players should count. Or at the very least ones as important as her definately should be. An exhibition game is still an NHL game or it wouldn't be called the NHL Pre-Season. --Djsasso 20:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * To add to that. The NHL itself recognizes her as the first female to play in an NHL game. They don't use the word exhibition. So if the NHL itself considers preseason games as games, who are we to disagree? --Djsasso 20:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I can see your point, however if we include Rheaume then we will need to include numerous other borderline players like the two mentioned above who have yet to play or never played in the NHL (regular season or playoffs). This could possibly includes a large number of relatives who have been drafted, attended camp, played in an exhibition game and were sent back to the minors to never play again (like Crosby) or who have been sent back to junior for more experience and have yet to return (like Staal). I think we need to have a set criteria that contains clear, quantifiable terms to avoid every editor having their own interpretation of who belongs in the article. As a side note, did Rheaume ever sign an NHL contract? To me her participation an NHL exhibition game (1 period in the first game in '92 - and no boxscore that I can find of the 2nd game in '93) reeks of a publicity stunt on the part of the Tampa Bay Lightning - as there have been numerous more talented female players to come along since who have not even had so much as a tryout. (just my POV, not really relevant to the discussion)Yankees76 20:26, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh it was definately a publicity stunt. Phil Espisito has said as much. Regardless she was still the first to do it. What I think you need to do is make the distinction "Has made an impact in the NHL". That way noteworthy people like Manon Reaume are included and people like Troy Crosby are not. But I do see your side of the coin. I just happen to think this one player is very much an exception to the rule. I have no problem stopping all other people who only played an exhibition game but I think it would less than good to not have the first female player listed. --Djsasso 20:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I prefer the current criteria (which excludes Manon Rheaume). If we start adding exhibition only players & draftee only players, this article will guickly become bloated. If someone never played in the NHL (regulation or playoff), obviously he/she wasn't good enough. Exhibition games are a testing ground for invitees (draftees), Manon Rheaume failed that test. GoodDay 20:54, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Now of course, if M.Rheame did play a regular or playoff game, if she became an NHL owner, GM, coach, scout, ref/lines; then she & her brother would be added. GoodDay 20:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I have to agree, and while Djsasso makes a compelling argument for Rheaume's inclusion (and for her place in hockey history), I still feel that we need a set of guidelines that make it easy to determine who is in and who isn't - and that set of guidelines as it stands now is that pre-season and/or exhibition games do not qualify for inclusion. This makes it very easy to determine who is in and who is out. It also allows us to use hockeydb.com as a source to check inclusions, as it only lists regular season and playoff games.. I still feel more opinions are required. Yankees76 21:29, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * See I guess I just don't see where it says exhibition games don't count (as GoodDay is suggesting) and the NHL calls what Manon did playing an official NHL game. But I do agree with what Yankee says above. It could become hard to say no to other people if you make exceptions. I just have a very hard time allowing someone who made such an impact on the NHL to be left off the list. But I too think more opinions are needed and will gladly go with the consensus as usual but I just think letting it go without a discussion wouldn't be prudent. --Djsasso 00:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

This category is "List of family relations in the National Hockey League". Pascal is an NHL player. Manon is certainly notable because of hockey, and fits the Notability criteria. If Manon was notable for something other than hockey, then I'd definitely vote against including it. I'd also vote against it if she wasn't wiki-notable. However, he's NHL, she's hockey-notable, so I think it's appropriate to keep the Rhéaumes in. ColtsScore 09:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC) 2nd comment on this - If the NHL recognises Manon as the first female to play in an NHL game (of whatever type) then I'd consider her highly NHL-notable. That's an historical milestone, and if the league recognises it, then I don't see why we shouldn't either. Even if it's decided that exhibition-game-only players don't fit into this category, if she's the first female player (as recognized by the league itself), then that makes her much more NHL-notable than someone who only played in an exhibition game. ColtsScore 10:06, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * But by your logic, Troy Crosby also would deserve to be entered, as he (most likely) played in pre-season games in 1985 with the Monteral Canadiens, and can be considered notable as the father of Sidney Crosby. Yet Crosby did not play a regular-season NHL game and was out hockey 2 years after being drafted.
 * Also, I keep seeing that the NHL officially recognizes her as playing in a game, and yet when I look at the list of all-time sweater numbers of the Tampa Bay Lightning . I don't see Rheaume's name (she wore #33 during her stint). (It could also be argued that Rheaume is no more notable and has had no more impact on their sport than Eddie Gaedel - the only difference being Gaedel played a regular season game.)
 * Nonetheless - I think it's nitpicking to exclude her from the article because yes ,she is notable, and she is the only one of her kind. I'll change my vote, so long as we continue to assert that regular/post season participation is required for other non-notable players to be included. Yankees76 14:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * As Yankees76 has pointed out, if we allow the Rheaumes to be listed (because of Manon's status as 'first woman'), then the flood gates will open to include ALL NHL draftees, or ALL players who participated in Exhibition games only. If Manon is the only exception (because she's a woman), the exclusion of others could be viewed as sexist. If we stick with the current criteria, the Rheaumes don't belong and if we allow the Rheaumes, then all NHL draftees should be allowed. It would be sad, to see this article altered or bloated, all over 1 NHL draftee (merely because of the draftees' gender). GoodDay 18:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * She's in, notable enough since she was the first woman in the NHL. But let's make this an exlusive exception so that all drafted players and such gets added to the list. --Krm500 18:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't believe that it would be racist to acknowledge extra notability to the first black player in the NHL. By that logic, I don't think it is sexist to acknowledge the first female player either.  I say she's extra notable as a ground-breaker.ColtsScore 14:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Off topic, I don't buy the whole "groundbreaker" tag she's often placed with. She's may be the first woman to play in the NHL, but 15 years later, she's also the only woman to play an NHL game - making her more of a curiousity at this point than a groundbreaker. Jackie Robinson is a groundbreaker. Manon Rheaume was a publicity stunt. Yankees76 17:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I made the mistake of adding Manon Rheaume and Pascal Rheaume without checking this Talk page first and got reverted. They should be listed. The worry that this will open the floodgates is misplaced. She is a clear exception. If another preseason player is suggested, just point them to the Legends of Hockey site and ask them if they overshadow their Stanley Cup-winning sibling. Check out their lead for Pascal: "When Pascal Rheaume's name is mentioned in hockey circles, there tends to be an air of familiarity that inevitable leads to a mention of his sister, Manon Rheaume, the first female goaltender to appear in an NHL exhibition game. As for Pascal, his ascent to the big leagues has had none of the stardust enjoyed, however briefly, by his sister." Canuckle 23:11, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I must disagree, changing the criteria of this article for just one person (Manon Rheaume) isn't acceptable. Phil Esposito's PR stunt, isn't a good basis for such a change. GoodDay 15:55, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Regarding your phrasing of "request for criteria change". That's why it's an exception, so it doesn't necessarily change the criteria and doesn't open the floodgates. Although individual wikipedians may view her stopping shots in preseason as a publicity stunt akin to a dwarf instructed not to even swing at a pitch, it's quite clear that reliable sources view Pascal's sister as having made some sort of NHL achievement at least as notable as Keith Gretzky's scouting role. Canuckle 17:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Nope, the criteria shouldn't be changed for one individual. This is an old argument which was settled (I thought) months ago. GoodDay 17:44, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * An exception to criteria is quite different than changing criteria. Can you address that rather than just shutting down discussion? And consensus can change with the times. It's perfectly legit to re-open "old" arguments for civil discussion. Canuckle 17:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you should hold a Rfc on the 'criteria' of this article. You have the right to do so. GoodDay 18:26, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * PS - let's continue this discussion at 'bottom' of talk page. GoodDay 18:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

NHL scouts
About a year ago, it was decided to keep Keith Gretzky in the article as he was an NHL scout. Recently his entry has been removed, what gives? GoodDay 21:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Page overhaul
As you can see, I have essentially re-written the page from scratch, in table form, with inline citations for every relation. I did this because I think the page can definitely become a featured list. I've been working on this page as a subset of my userpage for about two weeks now, and it's finally ready for mass consumption. I'm going to submit it to peer review shortly, but I wanted some feedback from the WikiProject:NHL people first before I made the change. Hope you like the changes. Anthony Hit me up... 20:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Edit. I thought I would explain the changes I made to the page.


 * 1) Obviously, I put the page in table form. I felt in its previous incarnation, it wasn't properly formatted, and didn't appear to be a good list.
 * 2) I ordered siblings from oldest to youngest, instead of alphabetical order, to provide a familial flow throughout the article.
 * 3) I noted who is in the Hockey Hall of Fame and who has won the Stanley Cup.
 * 4) I added who played on the same team, or with each other.
 * 5) I added other interesting trivia about the players where possible.

Now one of the biggest concerns is obviously the size of the page. It's currently 105 KB, due to the format and large number of sources, but there are other huge featured lists (see List of Georgia Institute of Technology alumni, which is 97K). Another is the pictures along the right side of the page, which don't fit well on 1024x768, but work on 1600x1200. I'm not versed enough in wikiformatting to fix that problem, so hopefully someone else can. I'll put it up for peer review over the weekend, which will hopefully give everyone in the project enough time to look at it first. Again, feel free to critique, criticize, compliment, etc. Anthony Hit me up... 20:50, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It looks fantastic to me, great. GoodDay 20:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Nice improvement! The only things I can think of that should be changed is twins in a seperate list. --Krm500 12:40, 26 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow, if that is not a "major" set of edits, I don't know what is. :) Easy to read, and the FAQs as part of intro is a great addition. &mdash; MrDolomite &bull; Talk 16:44, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

If want to get the list featured you might want to think about rewriting (not written as a list) the Trivia section and rename it to History or something. --Krm500 22:37, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Diacriticals (again)
Since there seems to be a inconsistancy concerning additions of diacriticals, I've removed them all. Furthermore, as this is an NHl-related article, perhaps the diacriticals should be omitted. GoodDay 17:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

What about photographers in the NHL?
Although not actual players, they are still technically, maybe indirectly, a part of the NHL. The only example I can think of would be Martin Brodeur's father Denis Brodeur, long-time photographer for the Canadiens. Is he worth mentioning?  Bsroiaadn Talk 02:49, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No, because that gets too far removed from the actual hockey being played. That's why I removed broadcasters (with one or two rare exceptions, like Foster Hewitt... basically people in the HOF).  For the most part, it's players, coaches, GMs, and scouts.  Everything else is too far attenuated. Anthony Hit me up... 14:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Alright, I kinda figured so. I didn't wanna add it without asking, just incase. I didn't notice the "players, coaches, scouts," etc. thing at the top of the article when I asked that.  Bsroiaadn Talk 02:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Shore/Butterfield
Deleted this entry at 'Uncle-Nephews' section. Butterfield never played/coached/scouted/managed/owned a franchise, in the NHL. He was big in the AHL. His entry violated the pages criteria. GoodDay 18:13, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Fair enough... the only reason I possibly included him in the first place is because he's in the Hockey Hall of Fame, but I understand and support the deletion. Anthony Hit me up... 19:09, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Broadcasters
If we're going to include broadcasters (as with the Hewitt's). Then Ralph Mellanby and the Irvins would belong. They used to be in the article (have since been omitted). I've recently added Foster & Bill Hewitt to go along with W.A & Foster Hewitt. GoodDay 21:15, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I realize now for the integrity of the article that broadcasters must be excluded, even those as famous as the Hewitts. That's why I removed people like Ralph Mellanby and Marv Albert when I overhauled the list.  It's a slippery slope if we start making exceptions; that's why Manon Rheaume remains off this page, despite all the hoopla surrounding her.  That's why I reverted your edit, GoodDay (though the Griffiths can stay, since they're owners). Anthony Hit me up... 00:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That's cool, just wanted be sure. No problem. GoodDay 16:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Woohoo!!!
Thanks to all the people who voted in favor of this list becoming a featured list! I'm sure we can keep this list at the level that it demands, with new players coming into the league every year. Thanks again! Anthony Hit me up... 18:16, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Jiri's Bubla & Slegr
This father-son combination, should be under the Bubla name. Jiri Slegr does have Bubla DNA, where' Jiri Bubla doesn't have Slegr DNA. The father's name should be used (as it was, before). GoodDay 20:36, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Moved entry to 'Bubla' and replaced international notes with NHL notes (afterall, this article relates to the NHL only). GoodDay 15:51, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

References formatting
The scrolling references box should be avoided for accessibility reasons. Please see Templates for deletion/Log/2007 June 11. heqs ·:. 07:39, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The scrolling technique helped make the page shorter. I thought it was a neat idea. GoodDay 15:33, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It does seem like one at first blush, but if you read that deletion debate for Template:Scrollref (essentially did exactly what was done to the reflist of this article), I think you'll see why this sort of feature creep should be avoided on Wikipedia. heqs ·:. 19:16, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
 * In agreement, it's better to avoid 'feature creeps' GoodDay 14:24, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Brad and Greg Leeb
Does anyone know if Brad Leeb and Greg Leeb are related? I couldn't find anything, but they are from the same city.Canuck85 06:34, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Not very reliable but... --necronudist 09:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Games Played
A column of total number of games played by the family would be great. Then you could sort on that and see the most 'significant' families (families with just a couple hundred games aren't of interest to most people). Some marker indicating one of the members is active would be required.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.246.4.186 (talk) 05:24, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Manon Rheaume (cont'd)
The players inclusion criteria should remain -a player must have played a regular season or playoff game-. GoodDay 18:35, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I still think they should be in. I even thought we had come to a concensus last time to add her as an exception but I would have to go back and read all the past discussion to see if that was the case or not. Being the first female player in the NHL makes her notable enough to be listed as a family relation on this list. --Djsasso 18:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I prefer keeping the current 'criteria' (no exception). The only way Manon Rheaume should be allowed, would be to allow inclusion of all exhibition-only players. As Yankees76 said, she was no Jackie Robinson (she's been the only female). GoodDay 18:43, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * See and I completely disagree, doesn't matter if no more females followed her. She was still the first, and as much she is as notable, if not moreso, that most of the people on this list. There is no reason why you would have to add all exhibition-only players. They did not become as notable as she did. --Djsasso 19:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's either no exceptions or inclusion of all; again it was just a Phil Espositio PR stunt. GoodDay 19:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There is no reason why it has to be all or none. No offense intended but you do have a tendancy to always try to push for all or none. When there is always a possibility for middle ground. This is one of those cases. Whether or not it was a PR stunt does not mitigate that she was the first female player. PR stunt or not she was and always will be the first female NHL player. In fact there is even an article about this type of reasoning WP:ALLORNOTHING. Yes its aimed mostly at deletion discussions but it can apply to situations like this as well. --Djsasso 20:08, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Add her, if you (or Canuckle) wish. I just hope others will accept the 'double standard' of it. GoodDay 20:14, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I will wait to see what others say. But I see no reason why she absolutely should not be added. I can see reasons why its a grey area, but I see no absolute reason why she can't. So I will wait and see. --Djsasso 20:16, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There really is no double standard as she is not being allowed on the list because she played an expedition game, but because she was the first woman to play in a game, expedition or not.  T Rex  | talk  19:09, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd be more then happy to include Manon Rheaume and the other 'exhibition only players'. At least those players 'earned a try-out', unlike Rheaume (a PR stunt). GoodDay 19:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
 * {re-indent) As the person who overhauled this page, I would like to throw my $0.02 in, realizing of course my vote means no more than anyone else's. As we stated above, the exhibition only requirement is important, because there are a ton of no-name siblings who would be included on this page if the pre-season were to count.  As that is the rule we established for the page, the fact that one person is left out is the (some would say unfortunate) result.  I agree with GoodDay, Manon Rheaume is nothing more than a PR stunt used to sell tickets for one game.  If she held a steady spot on the roster during the preseason and ended up back in the minors, I would say you have a stronger argument.  Since she didn't, she's no more notable than Eddie Gaedel, and thus should be left off the page. Anthony Hit me up... 23:06, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I disagree. Our standard is already extreme inclusionism. Right now, Bobby Hull is cited not only as a New York Ranger in all pertinent lists and categories but as a Ranger Hall of Famer based on the four games he played years after his formal retirement in a blue uniform in a European exhibition tournament, and there are those here who advocated his inclusion hard. Regardless of the motivations behind Rheaume's signing -- and I can think of few notions more arbitrary and subjective than us deciding what players are notable or not based on our perceptions of the general manager's motivations -- she played two regularly scheduled NHL exhibition games. If folks would like to revisit the silliness of Hull = Ranger, sure, let's go for it, but if you're going to advocate the one, then the other must remain also. Beyond that, the article is wildly inconsistent. What's Keith Gretzky doing there? Marguerite Norris? If the criterion is "connection with the organization," then suiting up for exhibition games sure as heck qualifies.  Ravenswing  20:28, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As I've said before, feel free to add Rheaume (just don't forget the others). As for the Bobby Hull situation? see New York Rangers article.  GoodDay 20:33, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Get ready to add Troy Crosby then. He never played in a regular NHL game either, but as I noted above would have most likely appeared in a pre-season game in 1985. My own opinion is that this argument is ridiculous and would not be taking place if Rheaume was a male. However, perhaps the strongest argument for her not being included in this article is that she does not even appear on the Tampa Bay Lightning all-time player list on their own websitewhen even Normand Rochefort who played all of 6 games for the franchise is. She's not a player, coach owner, official, or head scout. She was a novelty act, who probably did not appear in enough minutes to qualify as being the goaltender of record in either game she played. I'm surprised there is such a debate over a person who played probably less than 3 periods of pre-season hockey. --Yankees76 20:56, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Quite frankly if the only way to make sure someone as major as Rheaume is not left off the list then I would be more than willing to add Troy Crosby and all the other exhibition only players. I think it is a grave error to leave her off, novelty act or not. --Djsasso 21:00, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * There is one easy solution. Change the name of the article from List of family relations in the National Hockey League to List of family relations in Professional Hockey. Then the Manon Rheaumes and Hayley Wickenheisers can be added along with the Ryan Sittlers, Terrence Tootoos and Darryl Campbells of the hockey world. --Yankees76 21:21, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Great idea ...Professional Hockey. We'll have to divide the article of course into NHL, AHL, European Teams, WNHL etc. How's about it folks? GoodDay 21:26, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't have an issue with that. --Djsasso 21:27, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Nix the 'sections for Leagues' suggestion, we simply add NHL, AHL , European Elit League etc, next to the person's name. So we know what level they got to (exhibition included). 21:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. I can see issues with verification, however HockeyDB.com is fairly complete. I would also ensure it's professional "Ice Hockey" as well. --Yankees76 21:47, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that would make this already incredibly large list beyond workable. As it is, it takes a minute just to upload any changes to the page.  I'm concerned about several things:

As it is, we have very clear standards for who can have articles on this site and who cannot; they have been extensively discussed and refined in the Hockey WikiProject. If we proceed to open this up, there is no conceivable end to where this article could go. There are countless leagues in North America, and if we include Europe, we're talking literally thousands of players and individuals on this site. The current standards for this page, restrictive though they may be, are in the best interests of Wikipedia and the editors involved. The mere fact that we are considering an overhaul of this magnitude simply for one person is incredulous. The standard works. The page works. Let's leave it at that before we blow all this away simply for one individual. Anthony Hit me up... 12:40, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) The size of the page
 * 2) The verifiability of the information
 * 3) The notability of the individuals on it
 * 4) Maintaining featured status
 * Anthony has good points folks. What are we gonna do, now? GoodDay 16:06, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * PS-I'm glad you brought up the difficulty factor concerning making edits to this article. It gets tiresome seeing Wikimedia Fountation (server is down), when trying to make changes after waiting a minute for the page to un-freeze. GoodDay 16:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Divide the article?
As Anthony pointed out (above), the article has gotten long and bloated. Perhaps we should divide it up into sister articles. Those articles would deal with NHL players, AHL players, European Elite players, NHL management (owners/gms/coaches), European Elite management, NHL officials (refs/linesmen), etc, etc. It seems inevitable. GoodDay 17:06, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * The problem with that argument is that as the page stands now, you have all varieties of relations on the page. Players are related to referees, coaches are related to builders, there's no way we can narrow the scope of the page down without doing serious damage.  I agree the page is bloated as per your comments above, but unfortunately I don't see any other way we can deal with it.  If we increase the scope of the page above to include Manon Rheaume and all the Europeans, we might as well just give up.  On the other hand, cutting it into smaller articles would also be a pain.  The only conceivable reduction method would be to split it along familial connections: one page for siblings, one page for parent-children, and one page for the rest; that's how I split up the page in my sandbox when I was overhauling it.  If you do it any other way, you risk cutting out relations and information.  I would have no problem splitting the page into smaller connection pages; I am vehemently opposed, however, to any expansion of the inclusion criteria.  Leave Manon Rheaume out, because it's just a slippery slope otherwise. Anthony Hit me up... 14:31, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm at my wits end, I'm no longer certain what to do. I do know one thing however, I'll these potential headaches would be avoided if the current criteria remains (meaning no Manon). GoodDay 16:57, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. Anthony Hit me up... 17:09, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Does anybody know how to divide this article? Perhaps into List of siblings in Ice Hockey, List of parents and children..., List of cousins... etc. It's only gonna get more difficult to edit or even view the page. GoodDay 16:33, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As I said above, the only legit way to divide the article is to divide along familial connections. The size of the page as it stands now is unwieldy; 111 kilobytes is massive.  Another few things to consider when we split the page down:

We're going to need some input on this before we take any action, though I suggest doing it soon. I'll alert the hockey wikiproject. Anthony Hit me up... 20:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) What do we call the new sub-pages?
 * 2) What does this article become?  A link to the sub-pages?
 * 3) Do the sub-pages then become their own featured lists as a result of breaking off from the main one?
 * It's seems everyone is agreed to division along those lines (familial lines), aswell as keeping the current inclusion criteria. GoodDay 22:19, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

My two cents
I think the article should stick to just players and another section should be made for other relations, such as coaches, trainers, whatever, etc. I also liked the old layout without the notations on the far right, it was easier to view/navigate without having to scroll down. -RiverHockey 21:09, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree, the list was much shorter & easier to work with, before the format was changed (remember the saying? if it ain't broke, don't fix it). Furthermore, could somebody out there please divide this goliath of an article up? Make each section an article itself? GoodDay (talk) 23:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's only 113k, which is pretty average for a page so its not really a goliath article. The reason we thought about ividing it up was because we wanted to include Rheaume in it etc. --Djsasso (talk) 23:26, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I find the size of this article has slowed down the ability to obtain it & edit it. GoodDay (talk) 23:31, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that an all-players section would be better. I would also like to see a section for family records: ie families with the most members, games played, goals, assists, points, Stanley Cups, etc.Hellbound Hound (talk) 13:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Parise Bros
Zach Parise's Brother plays for Lowell, New jersey's minor team. his brother is Jordan Parise —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dark Lord Revan (talk • contribs) 05:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

refs in scroll window
just an aside, i believe this violates WP policy. refs are not supposed to be in a scrollable window, as it impairs access for those with disabilities or those on limited terminals. Anastrophe (talk) 00:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Bubla and the Olympic Gold Medal
At the father-son line "Jiri Bubla - Jiri Slegr" there is written: "They both played for the Vancouver Canucks. They both won the Olympic Gold Medal and IIHF World Hockey Championship Gold Medals making them the only father/son combination to do so.[244]" However, this is not true. Jiri Bubla won only Olympic Silver Medal in 1976. The link does not say it either. I will remove the note. Miraceti (talk) 13:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

The Hextall Family Tree
New at this guys, so please forgive if this an intrution, or the wrong way to go bout it. But shouldn't the section have a Grandfather-Son-Grandson section Ron Hextall is the grandson of Hall-of-Famer Bryan Hextall, the son of former NHL player Bryan Hextall Jr. and nephew of former NHL player Dennis Hextall. I mean 3 NHLers out of one Hall-of-Famer has got to account for something, The Hextall's were mentioned I see, but A grandFather-Son-Son-GrandSon combo is pretty Rare. lateofphilly (talk) 21:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


 * They're already listed twice on the Parent-child section (Bryan to Bryan Jr. and Dennis, Bryan Jr. to Ron). No need to repeat it again in a separate section - grandparent-to-grandchild is f0r cases where NHL playing time skipped a generation. NeoChaosX (talk, edits) 22:13, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Should Brett Hextall be on the list? He was drafted by the Coyotes, but hasn't played in the NHL. Playing in the NHL doesn't seem to be a prerequisite, some of the included people aren't players at all, but merely involved in some way. Brett is a player who is or at least was involved in the NHL in some capacity. 70.69.132.168 (talk) 05:29, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * They need to have been in the NHL or held a management role in the NHL is the requirement I believe. If they don't play a single game then they don't qualify. I know we regularely cut players who only played in exhibition games because they aren't official games. So if he didn't play at all then he definitely doesn't qualify. -DJSasso (talk) 11:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Should the Brodeurs be listed here?
Well, after finding out about Mike Brodeur and his "distant" (to put it in Mike's words) relation to Martin Brodeur, I'm curious as to whether that's enough to list them on this article. Someone put the two Broduers under "Siblings", but their distant relation would disqualify them for that. I reaize, however, that "distant" is too vague and it could cover any sort of relationship. So I'm curious - is the relation between Mike and Martin Brodeur enough to be listed here, or do we not have enough information to know for sure? NeoChaosX (talk, edits) 22:16, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I personally probably wouldn't. But we do have a cousin section so technically. -DJSasso (talk) 00:09, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I would probably say not unless we have a firmer grasp of what the relationship is. If Mike is Martin's fourth cousin, twice removed, on his father's side, that is a bit ridiculous. Resolute 00:55, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Slap Shot Mania
I noticed that Jack Carlson & Steve Carlson was listed under brothers. 3rd brother Jeff Carlson never played in the NHL but did play in the WHA and IHL and a few more prof. leagues. But that's not all. They have a cousin, David Hanson, who played 100+ games in WHA and then a couple of dozen games in NHL (Red Wings and North Stars). That's not all. David's son, Christian Hanson, is a centre for the Maple Leafs. But, as stated earlier, only Jack & Steve is mentioned in the list. Anyone care to fix this or is it left out for some reason? 213.114.9.165 (talk) 21:43, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

NON NHL but notable families
Cyclone Taylor is listed here as a notable relation to an nhl player. However he never actually played in the NHL. THere are a few familiy relations which can also be determined pre NHL. Can we change the name of the article to reflect at least professional hockey families rather than solely NHL families? Just some thoughts. Thanks for anyones time Ottawa4ever (talk) 14:20, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I am guessing the reason for him was that he played in the NHA, which though not technically the NHL, many people consider it the same thing. I would probably remove him and any others like him. -DJSasso (talk) 14:56, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
 * He also played in leagues that were considered on par with the NHL at the time, played against NHL teams in the Stanley Cup Finals, won the Stanley Cup, is in the HHOF, and is generally considered to be the best player of his era. A previous suggestion was "professional hockey" which someone rightly suggested it would make this list way too long.  But certain leagues were considered "Major League" (original IHL circa 1905, NHA, PCHA, WCHL circa 1920s, WHA).88.103.9.230 (talk) 16:45, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Manon Rheaume redux
And here we go again ... First off, we've been more than happy to credit a player in exhibition play only as "belonging" to that team. (Bobby Hull a New York Ranger Hall of Famer? Really?  Seriously?)  Secondly, this list is already jampacked with people whose NHL credentials stretch no further than being an equipment manager, an assistant in the front office, a scout, a "medical trainer" and suchlike ... which is quite enough of a whopping "can of worms" as it is, and which doesn't seem to much bother people, at least not nearly as much a female player seems to. You're burning to get rid of Manon Rheaume? Fine. Then get rid of every other person who did not play in a NHL regular season or playoff game. I'd be down with that, and that'd give the article a firm, objective criterion. As it happens, the list does not otherwise exclude rostered players who didn't play in a regular season game. (Come to that, it doesn't exclude much of anyone. If the criterion is "employed by the NHL in some capacity," as it appears to be, Rheaume certainly qualifies, as does the GM's secretary, the assistant deputy head of marketing and the head usher ... some of whom must have been family members of players.  Want to bet I can't come up with fifty or sixty of those just going through the Team Directory sections of NHL Media Guides?   ῲ Ravenswing ῴ  05:23, 15 July 2011 (UTC) There were no equipment manager, broadcasters, minor leaguers, etc.  Now that the list is no longer FL, and isn't protected as much, it's run amok.  I have neither the time nor the energy to devote to maintaining it, so I shudder to think what I would find.  But Manon Rheaume (and thus Pascal) don't belong on this page, at least under the standard that was set at the time this was FL.  My $0.02. Anthony (talk) 14:21, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
 * When I watched over this list, and it was FL, the criteria to make the list was:
 * 1. Played in a regular season NHL game.
 * 2. Coached an NHL team.
 * 3. General manager of an NHL team.
 * I've no objection to head coaches or general managers. What we do have are scouts, front office middle managers, assistant equipment managers, linesmen and all manner of folks whose sole claim to being "in" the NHL is that they were at one point employed by a NHL team, a description which applies in equal measure to Manon Rheaume.  I'd be more than happy to strip out all the dross if there is consensus on a firm, objective standard.    ῲ Ravenswing ῴ  15:36, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I would trim it back to where it was when it was a FL. -DJSasso (talk) 15:39, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Agreed, the list has become bloated, with undeserved entries. GoodDay (talk) 23:38, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Updating
I deleted alot of unqualified entries from this article. IMHO, if one hasn't been an NHL player (i.e. played atleast 1 NHL regular seaon game or 1 NHL playoff game), one shouldn't be admitted. That's why Lester & Frank Patrick got the boot, aswell as the Smythes, Fergusons, Griffiths, Wirtzs, Irvins etc. GoodDay (talk) 12:25, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Err ... consensus is running that head coaches and GMs qualify, which leaves Frank Patrick back in, for one.  ῲ Ravenswing ῴ  15:19, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
 * We should use "played at least one game in the NHL regular season or playoffs" as the criteria for inclusion. People who were only in management and/or coaching, merely muddies the waters & makes this article too long & difficult to edit. GoodDay (talk) 15:25, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Scarcely, considering the size of the article. In any event, consensus is running strongly towards their inclusion, so if you wouldn't mind halting editing them out until such time as that consensus falters?   ῲ Ravenswing ῴ  19:55, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Okie Dokie. GoodDay (talk) 19:57, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Current NHLers
I just removed Daymond Langkow as a current NHLer. He hasn't played since 2012... and I'm a little nervous to check the rest of the list to see who else/ (Brendan Morrison also caught my eye as a current NHLer; he hasn't played since 2012 either. I'll change that after posting this.) For as long as I remember, this page has been behind the times on who is still active or not. Is this something we should even include if no one is going to play custodian? -Uncleben85 (talk) 23:46, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

EDIT: I just updated the page, but I still want to call to discussion if this is worth keeping as "current" page.

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Brewing Edit War
Why are you removing information from the NHL relations page?

Both Hamilton brothers are playing in the Calgary Flames organization - this type of information is included throughout the article (see: Benn brothers, O'Reilly brothers, Samuelsson brothers, Schenn brothers, Sedin brothers, Staal brothers, etc.)

Maybe the Sauve uncle-nephew relationships do not need to be there as if you read all the siblings, parent-child, and cousins sections it is deductible, but I personally don't think that clarification is clutter. Same goes with the Kearns and Lukowich relationships. Yes, the information is there if you read every section and deduce, but why not provide that information explicitly.

And why would you remove the Brickley cousins? Both are/were NHL players, and 1st cousins, once-removed, are closer in relation than the plethora of second cousins, and especially the third cousins such as the Carkners and Pietrangelos, or the "distant cousins" of Clark&Melrose and Kocur.

-Uncleben85 (talk) 14:15, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

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error: Buchanan, Ralph & Ron
Under the Notes section of parents and sons, the description is in error, I believe, and certainly confusing.

"Ron only played five games in the NHL, and Ron only played five."

I think it should probably say Ralph in one of those places... not Ron twice... and also clarify a bit better. Not being a sports buff, I can't decipher the references enough to make the corrections myself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Steph6n (talk • contribs) 09:02, 2 May 2011 (UTC)


 * This has been corrected Alaney2k (talk) 15:42, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

The Howes
Why are Mark and Marty Howe listed separately from Gordie and Viv? 207.161.60.190 (talk) 04:10, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Grandfather & Grandson
Why are Bernie Geoffrion & Blake Geoffrion being deleted from this section? GoodDay (talk) 18:23, 8 September 2011 (UTC)