Talk:List of fictional Jews/Archive 1

Redirects & Jesus
It got reverted back, but either the "List of Jewish Superheroes" article should be turned into a redirect here, or this should redirect there. It's silly and pointless to maintain two lists, so that changes need to made in two places.

It'd also be great if some heroic Wikipedian could go through this list and see if they can insure that everything actually belongs. Some of these entries look a bit shaky; I wouldn't be suprised if they were added in error.

Also... Jesus?! I realize that there are some who believe the proof of Jesus's life to be shaky at best, but that's a big difference between claiming he was fictional. This is no less true for most non-royal people before well-kept records. Wikipedia and most scholarly places give ancient people presented as people the benefit of the doubt on existing. This should be a no-brainer.

(To elaborate some more, take Homer for example. Perhaps he really did exist.  Or maybe he did exist, but he wasn't blind and other tales of his life are untrue.  Or it's entirely possible that there was one person who wrote the Illiad and the Odyssey, but wasn't known as "Homer," and only became referred to as Homer by later generations accidentally.  Lastly, it's possible that there never was a Homer, and later generations simply falsely attributed the poems to one person.  In the first three cases, there's still a "real" person being referred to as Homer.  But even in the fourth case, where the attribution is simply wrong, it's still not "fiction."  It's just incorrect, just as Aristotlean physics is wrong, not fictional.  Now consider that there's considerably more supporting evidence for Jesus than Homer.  It isn't even a debate.) SnowFire 02:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Fox Mulder
I have removed Fox Mulder. As stated in his article, 'His ethnicity and religious affiliation are never directly disclosed', and there have only been hints that his is Jewish. In the episode 'Conduit' (I think), he's actually sitting in a church, looking as if he's praying.  Sergeant  Snopake  11:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * What are the hints, exactly? I know that Duchovny's father is Jewish, so perhaps people may have run these two together (Duchovny and Mulder).  I really haven't seen a tremendous amount of the show, so I don't know... Michael 03:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
 * (Revision as of 06:51, 9 July, 2006)
 * His ethnicity and religious affiliation are never directly disclosed, but there are several hints that he is supposed to be Jewish, as in the episode "Kaddish." Also, in "Drive," while taken hostage, Mulder is asked, with some contempt, if his last name is Jewish, to which he answers, "It's Mr. Mulder to you, you peanut-picking bastard." There is also a box of passover matzo on top of the fridge in his home. David Duchovny has said that he considers Mulder to be Jewish.
 * (current revision - 6:30, 24 July, 2006)
 * His ethnicity and religious affiliation are never directly disclosed, but there are several hints that he is supposed to be Jewish, as in the episodes Kaddish (4x12) and Drive (6x02). David Duchovny has said that he considers Mulder to be Jewish.
 * I've included both, because there's some more info in the 9th of July version that has since been removed.  Sergeant  Snopake  11:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Misleading
'This list is comprised of fictitious people/characters who are portrayed as Jewish, or are assumed to be Jewish, in some cases simply because they have a name commonly found among Jewish families.' Who else thinks that's kind of dumb? Spike Spiegel was listed, removed, and then re-listed with the edit summary category says "people/characters who are assumed to be Jewish, in some cases simply because they have a name commonly found among Jewish families" Spiegel is a Jewish last name - perfectly fair, but there is no other evidence (aside from his primary weapon) to suggest that he is Jewish, especially as the producers of Cowboy Bebop said they chose the name Spike Spiegel because "it sounded cool.". Shouldn't it really just be a list comprised of people who are actually, verifiably Jewish? I mean, supposing someone comes on here, sees Spike on the list and thinks 'Well, he must be Jewish then, Wikipedia says so', although it's actually nothing more than speculatory information.  Sergeant  Snopake  12:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed. That's why I removed him - I think that we need to change this list to have less of a speculation element to additions.OkamiItto 12:32, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Jewish?

 * Janine Melnitz
 * --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 10:42, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Is anything said about her anywhere? If not, she can't be listed. Michael 00:38, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Assumed to be Jewish, in some cases simply because they have a name commonly found among Jewish families
Not a good idea. As the jewfaq states, you cannot tell whether people are Jewish from their surnames. This statement should be removed, and only characters with a citaition to prove their Jewishness should be added. I will start work on trying to get citations for everyone. Well Drawn   Charli  e  17:41, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Merged in 15-20 names from "List of fictional Jewish LGBT characters"
That list was nominated for deletion and the result was "merge to this list". So I have. However, I have done this as a clerical exercise. Citations will be required where relevant. Fiddle Faddle 08:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * What I realise I have not done is make any reference to the fact that these at LGBT fictional characters. One was of doing this would be to add a ref to that effect.  It was considered important enough to create a list originally, but not important for a stand alone list.  Frankly I have no feelings about this either way, but I thought I should mention it as soon as I remembered.  Fiddle Faddle 11:38, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, neither do I have any important feelings either way, but I've made it so that all their references include the fact that they're gay, so...whatever. Well Drawn   Charli  e  14:36, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Luna, Wiccan, and speed
I don't think they really deserve to be on here, as their parents were only half Jewish on their father's side. If someone disagrees with me, feel free to re-add them. Well Drawn   Charli  e  17:20, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Spider-Man
I added him - tentatively - with a reference that mentions that everyone at the Marvel Comics staff always considered him Jewish. Even though there's nothing beyond that, I think it's at least worth mentioning in the list... Mad Jack 07:15, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking that perhaps he shouldn't be on the actual list, just as a note at the end of 'Superheroes of Jewish ethnicity (only)'. Well Drawn   Charli  e  15:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I've changed the formatting now, so I think that'll be fine. Well Drawn   Charli  e  11:43, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I've decided to remove Spiderman, because, seeing as there's no proof that he is actually Jewish, it seems misleading and wrong to have him on here. Feel free to revert me if I'm wrong. Well Drawn   Charli  e  19:37, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't see why we would remove him. If his creators or original writers thought of him as Jewish, why shouldn't we state so on this page? (I don't think the entry was misleading, because that's all it said, quoting the source) Mad Jack 19:59, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * It's just Paty Cockrum's word for it, though, that the creators and original writers thought of him as Jewish. Basically, maybe it should be mentioned on the list that he is considered Jewish by some, but I just feel that to have him on the list, when he doesn't have an actual reference and it's just somebody's say-so, is incorrect. Well Drawn   Charli  e  21:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

The question is whether Paty Cockrum passes WP:RS; it seems a good source to me.--Runcorn 21:28, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think that is the question, at least, certainly not the only question. Spiderman being Jewish is not Verifiable. The editorial staff worked off the belief that he was Jewish, that doesn't mean he is. Well Drawn   Charli  e  21:39, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Right, but we're not saying that he was Jewish. We're just saying that the editorial staff that created/worked on him believed him to be Jewish, and that is verifiable and notable. Mad Jack 22:21, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Then he belongs on the List of People Who Are Believed To Be Jewish. Or start a sub-section of people who are believed to be Jewish within this list, but as it stands, Spiderman/Peter Parker is not officially Jewish. It would have to be either explicitly mentioned in the story, or Marvel would have to verify him as Jewish. However, this current source is only speculation and personal opion, which is certainly notable, but I think you can agree, it does not belong on a list of Official Fictitious Characters who are Jewish. As I say, I have no objection to you starting a sub-section within this list. Well Drawn   Charli  e  22:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, I'd imagine that a list of fictitious Jews, unlike a list of real Jews, would include people believed to be Jewish by those who created them, etc. or even by a majority of fans or readers Mad Jack 22:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree there. Definitions and standards of proof can't be the same for fictional characters as for real prople.--Newport 23:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, no, because a person's opinion doesn't make it fact. Also, read what Paty Cockrum says; "the Marvel Comics editorial staff always worked off the belief that he was Jewish." The key word here is belief. Paty Cockrum doesn't say that everyone in Marvel thinks Spiderman's Jewish, or that when she was working on the comic he was Jewish, and certainly not that the creators of Spiderman (Stan Lee and Steve Ditko) thought of him as Jewish, but that they (the editorial staff) believed, for themselves, that he was Jewish. Because of this, I don't think we can really add him to the list of fictitious Jews, because he isn't a fictitious Jew, at least, not until the comics, Stan Lee, or Steve Ditko says he is. As I say, maybe this should come under some sort of sub-section (List of Believed Fictitious Jews?), which I think is the best solution as it keeps the information that Spiderman is considered by some as Jewish, but that he is not officially. Well Drawn   Charli  e  23:33, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Hard to say what's "official" specifically because it is fiction. But if that's the section you think would be a good solution, go for it. Mad Jack 23:35, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay then, I'll start it up! :) Well Drawn   Charli  e  23:40, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Why the split?
Why is there a distinction between Superheroes of the Jewish religion and those of Jewish ethnicity? I tis not a distinction made in the rest of the list, or indeed anywhere else on Wikipedia.--195.26.63.42 13:25, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Hal Emmerich - reliable sources?
I've played the games through and through, and I don't remember anything official about Otacon being Jewish (although I have heard many rumours). I'm truly sorry if this seems picky, and I'm really not trying to be difficult or offensive, but are these references (an MSN group and somebody's strategy guide) reliable? Well Drawn   Charli  e  23:34, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Name of this list
Is this a list of "Fictional Jews" or perhaps even less ambiguous, "Fictional Jewish characters" or alternatively, "Jewish characters in fiction"? I recommend you give further consideration to your use of the word "fictitious", which strikes me as vague and hence inaccurate for this encyclopaedia context. The entire matter of "Who is a Jew" (fictional, fictive, and fictitious -- as well as actual) is such a problematic and sensitive topic, fraught with contention, that it requires scrupulous use of language. -- Deborahjay 09:27, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, okay, good point. If you think the wording is wrong, you ought to edit it! <sup style="color:#FDD017;">Well Drawn   Charli  e  15:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree about changing the name of this article. "Jewish Characters in Fiction" is much more appropriate.--Gilabrand 13:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "Jewish Characters in Fiction" seems better to me too. Tvoz | talk 22:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Importance??
I'm new to this wikipedia thing but i would like someone to explain to me the relevance/importance of this article. I see it was has been previously nominated for deletion and i agree with this. In my opinion it bears no importance and should be removed. I am considering nominating it again but i would like to hear other opinionsBella vista 16:33, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, lots of good points were made on the deletion discussion itself, for instance, "A list of this sort can be an extremely useful reference for a broad group of people concerned with comparing various depictions of Jews in fiction", "This article has existed for very nearly a year and has been edited by many people; it is clearly of interest to more people than most articles", "relevant to the topic of media portrayals of Jews", "As a regular non-registered wikipedia user, I can't tell you how much I hate it every time I find a catagory I'm looking up is up for deletion", "We have an article on Jews. This list is a sublist of Lists of Jews", etc., etc. I could go on. Basically, now that the 'citations needed' has been put in, and a lot of referencing done, I do think that the list is a very helpful one. And, after all, there is the List of fictional Catholics and the List of Hispanic superheroes, in fact, just look at the List of fictional characters for all sorts of lists like this. <sup style="color:#FDD017;">Well Drawn   Charli  e  15:43, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I totally agree. This article is ridiculous. Bus stop 01:54, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Julius Knipl, Real Estate Photographer
I know he must be Jewish, but I can't come up with a verifiable citation. If anyone does, add it. kosboot (talk) 04:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Why on Earth isn't this a category?
Lots of other lists like this are. Why not this one? Lockesdonkey (talk) 02:37, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Superheroes Zim and Psycho -- can't find any evidence that they exist
Does anyone else know who those characters are? Otherwise, I'd remove them as being non-existing. Aristophanes68 (talk) 01:20, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Animated Character
I proposed that animated character (cartoons and game characters) are removed from the main list and placed in a separate list entitled "Animated characters". The main list would be renamed "TV and literary characters'. Are there any objections to this? JackJud (talk) 16:44, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * As some time has passed since I made this proposal and no objections have been raised, I intend to implement these changes in the near future. JackJud (talk) 14:04, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I have today implemented the above proposal. JackJud (talk) 10:22, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Why
Why would anyone have a list of fictitious Jews?


 * Why not have one? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 00:08, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Jesus Revisited
Continuing the discussion up top:

It seems that Jesus has been added to this a lot lately. I think for the most part it is people acting in bad faith and trying to offend religious Christians, etc. Now nevermind the offending bit, because whether or not someone is offended is a non-issue.

Let's look at this properly. While there is no actual contemporary proof for the existence of Jesus Christ (Our earliest writing about him is from 70 AD iirc), there is no evidence to actually suggest he did not exist (You would literally need to go back to that time to know for sure), just as there is no evidence for Moses or Abraham or the Patriarchs (though there is evidence for a Royal House of King David having actually existed), there is no evidence to say they did not.

The prevailing view amongst the majority of the human race, the reliable sources, and archaeologists is that Jesus did exist (along with the other mentioned names). People should not add him in just because they personally think he did not exist. It is just silly and it is unencyclopedic. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 00:18, 26 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Someone snuck in Jesus on the list, so I want to get an RFC going to settle this once and for all. My views on the issue have already been expressed in the above post. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie &#124; Say Shalom! 15:03, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

Dr. Zoidberg
I'm removing him from the list, seeing as there is no evidence whatsoever that he is jewish. He's not even from earth! The religion of his homeplanet is certainly not Judaism, so unless anyone has proof that he has converted since he came to earth he doesn't belong on this list.--Grobgeld 22:20, 29 June 2006 (UTC)


 * With regard to Zoidberg, though his character is basically made to be someone with a very Yiddish background, he is most definitely not Jewish himself. He's not even kosher! Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 00:05, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. No indication other than his annunciation that he is of Jewish decent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.243.87 (talk) 12:35, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Superman?
why would superman be jewish? he's not even from earth... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.122.49.112 (talk) 18:57, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I am removing the reference to superman for the same reason that zoidberg was removed: if he’s not even from planet earth, how can he be jewish? I listened to the source linked, and it’s a podcast from a journalist claiming that krypton sounds like an ideal jewish suburb, that the name kal-el sounds hebrew, that the story of superman resembles that of moses (why not sargon, then?), that krypton could be a metaphore for stuff etc etc. So, no real reliable sources (like, you know, someone who actually wrote the comic) and just assumptions made by a journalist. If he were at least interviewing someone or something, but he’s just making stuff up… — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.122.49.112 (talk) 19:19, 2 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Agreed in this case, but let's not go setting a precedent that all people not from earth can't possibly be Jewish. It is possible to convert to Judaism you know. &lt; Karlww ( contribs &#124; talk ) 00:09, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 19 December 2011
Where is Jesus?????? <From "The Bible">

94.192.113.109 (talk) 03:51, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Not in this list, because he is not decidedly and undisputedly fictional. — FoxCE (talk | contribs) 08:53, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Not in this list, because he is not decidedly and undisputedly fictional. — FoxCE (talk | contribs) 08:53, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Jesus
There needs to be some sort of consensus made over whether or not we consider Jesus Christ to be on the list or not, instead of just having him constantly added and removed. OkamiItto 05:56, 2 June 2006 (UTC)


 * There probably needs to be some discussion about whether we consider him fictitious or not, as well. And whether we should add Moses, Adam, David and all of the others. Perhaps they should go int Jewish Superheroes?RolandR 01:36, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem with that is the same conflict is within that list as to whether Jesus belongs there or not. Personally, I would put him on both the lists - that, or possibly combine the lists into one, and then put him, along with other Biblical characters, under a new heading within the page. OkamiItto 02:30, 3 June 2006 (UTC)


 * On a fictional page? Many religious people would be offended... Michael 03:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)


 * So? This is an encyclopedia, not a make-sure-people-don't-get-offended-opedia. You give information, and if people are offended, that's their problem, not the truth's.OkamiItto 06:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and calling him fictitious is not encyclopedic either, now is it? Proof cannot be provided either way. Michael 00:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

But doesn't his existence in a work of literature make him fictional? Henry Ford, J. P. Morgan, Evelyn Nesbit, and others are clearly real people, but in the context of the novel Ragtime, they are fictional characters. SquidsWeB 03:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but they shouldn't be on a list of fictitious characters (and if they are somewhere, you should remove them...). I mean, I could write a book about you in a fictitious setting, it wouldn't make you fictious. <sup style="color:#FDD017;">Well Drawn   Charli  e  19:31, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

True, but your depiction of me would be. SquidsWeB 14:38, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * So do we add every real Jew who has ever been depicted in a work of fiction? Albert Einstein and Benjamin Disraeli come to mind.--20.138.246.89 12:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, if we started putting every real Jew who has ever been depicted in a work of fiction on here, we'd have to put, like, "Albert Einstein" in "Whatever", which would just get stupid, and would probably give people the wrong idea (like, "Wait, but...I thought [whoever] was real...). <sup style="color:#FDD017;">Well Drawn   Charli [[User:Charlie

MacKenzie/Esperanza| e ]] 15:13, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I am a christian and I am outraged, I understand that some nonreligious people might not consider the bible true, but some acknowledge that Jesus existed and just don't believe he was divine and consider him just an "average joe" or historical figure. Besides isn't there enough proof and historical studies that show that Jesus was not fictional? Why don't you see the article on Jesus for some guidance, also you might want to see Historical Jesus and The Bible and History The bible is not a fiction book, it's the word of God! And don't respond by saying I am a fanatic, Jesus freak or Bible thumper, I just take my religion seriously

no, theres not enough proof either way as to whether he was fictional or not, so that means there is not enough evidence to both put him on this list conclusively, but conversely there is also not enough evidence to exclude him. as for "the bible is not a fiction book, it's the word of god!" that's just personal opinion and so isn't enough to exclude him from this list. surely it would be best if there was a separate heading that just sites the point that depending upon personal viewpoint jesus could be added to this list? that way we would not be offending religious people, nor would we be oppressing the viewpoint of others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.219.153.169 (talk) 08:39, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * the way I see it is that it is an opinion based entry, and wikipedia is not a place for opinions really. maybe we could add some kind of section in the article for things like that? that could possibly go badly though. Glacialfox (talk) 17:16, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
 * What do we do about the constant addition of Jesus currently though? It's getting rather tiresome to revertGlacialfox (talk) 18:06, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

May I suggest that you leave it in, but with a link to the article on Jesus mythicism. There is no historical evidence that Jesus was a real person. The sources cited are all non-contemporaneous or invalid for other reasons which means that, under the burden of proof, the claim that he was real should be considered false but as an encyclopaedia both options - and arguments - should be given their space, IMO, even though also IMO his existence should in now way be taken as proven. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.104.178.128 (talk) 00:19, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Surely the complete absence of proof of something's existence is basis enough to call it fictitious? I mean, I'm sure there are people who beleive Harry Potter actually exists, but that wouldn't exclude him from a list of fictitious people. Why does Jesus get special treatment, because more people believe in his existence? &lt; Karlww ( contribs &#124; talk ) 23:54, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Apparently my edit has been reverted too. Even though there is no proof whatsoever of the existence of jesus. And he is clearly part of a fictional work called the bible. whatever. wikipedia isn't the same since it is ruled by kim jong un --helohe (talk)  03:41, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

So let me get this straight, we aren't adding Jesus to it because a lot of people B-E-L-I-E-V-E he exists? Wikipedia is supposed to be fact based not belief based. You know, there are people who believe that Bin Laden is still alive, so I guess we need to take that off his page too right? Since we obviously have enough fact based reason to state that hes fictional (or at least more then some of the included members of this list) Permission to edit? (Honestly not 100% sure how to, so if I can't get it looking right I will leave it to a more experienced member.) Also if this is rejected, I would like a reason why. Don't give me that "opinion based" garbage either, we don't have any proof that Harry Potter isn't real, but we still refer to him as fictional right? Why is this any different other then we might offend people? (I'm here to debate not to argue so don't just pass me off.) 67.241.82.54 (talk) 10:47, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

God Emperor
I'm adding him here because he's blatantly, extremely obviously supposed to be Jesus and the same god in Judaism, and the religion of the Imperium is fairly similar with a lot of Hebrew and biblical themes.


 * Imperator Sascha (talk) 17:47, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * This is complete nonsense. "Please do not add characters who are not verifiably Jewish! If you add someone, always cite your source. For more information, see Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Citing sources. Thank you." The sources given have no mention of Judaism. Many characters and factions in warhammer can be considered metaphors or allegories for real life religious or political individuals or factions; but such relationships are purely a matter of interpretation and are never stated in the published materials. As the page is semi-protected I can't personally remove this rather silly addition - if someone else could do so, that would be great, thanks. Thelemur78 (talk) 23:17, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 12 February 2012
Another user added this info -

"== God Emperor ==

'''I'm adding him here because he's blatantly, extremely obviously supposed to be Jesus and the same god in Judaism, and the religion of the Imperium is fairly similar with a lot of Hebrew and biblical themes.


 * Imperator Sascha (talk) 17:47, 14 January 2012 (UTC)"'''


 * This is complete nonsense. "Please do not add characters who are not verifiably Jewish! If you add someone, always cite your source. For more information, see Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Citing sources. Thank you." The sources given have no mention of Judaism. Many characters and factions in warhammer can be considered metaphors or allegories for real life religious or political individuals or factions; but such relationships are purely a matter of interpretation and are never stated in the published materials. As the page is semi-protected I can't personally remove this rather silly addition - if someone else could do so, that would be great, thanks.

Of the 3 sources given by Imperator Sascha, none have any information to support his claims and 2 are online-wikis which are obviously not appropriate sources in any case. Thelemur78 (talk) 23:17, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Thelemur78 (talk) 23:57, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Already done Celestra (talk) 16:03, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Plus the entry "Gretel Ehrenstein, History of the Sturmkreig Empire.[36][37]" only exists in the fanfiction written by the same users and therefore surely does not meet relevancy criteria. Should therefore be removed. --JohnCrehan (talk) 11:31, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * This IP address comes from the same location as an Antisemetic troll who trolled Sturmkrieg. I can offer Check User information confirming this.  Also, I did not add Gretel; I believe that may have been Don. Imperator Sascha (talk) 15:05, 14 February 2012 (UTC)


 * This so-called Imperator Sascha is just a new sockpuppet account for a person who has been expelled from Wikipedia multiple times for harassment and other offences. A checking of his and the sockpuppets' data and contributions easily proves that. So actually the one shouting "troll" here is in fact the troll. Plus he already showed by his addition of the "God emperor" that he uses falsified sources to promote personal agendas. --JohnCrehan (talk) 11:31, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Addendum: "Imperator Sascha" is a sock/ meat puppet of the same user who before operated the accounts Sascha Kreiger, User:Anonymiss_Madchen, User:Genocide_Denial_Watch and others. Go and check out User:Paul_Siebert to find out why this user was punished for harassment. Crossreference their activities and login data. He also passed and passes by a long, long list of other pseudonyms on the internet used for trolling everything from muslims to anti-abortionist activists. --JohnCrehan (talk) 11:31, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Reinstating true information and request blocking of "Imperator Sascha" for harassment and meatpuppetry. --JohnCrehan (talk) 15:58, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Adding information that "Imperator Sascha" is also a meat puppet (or vice versa) of User:Anonyma_M%C3%A4del. --JohnCrehan (talk) 16:26, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * User "Imperator Sascha" is removing information in a futile attempt to hide his trolling and shows intimidating behaviour. Filing ANI for harassment now. Request blocking of this page by a moderator while keeping the accusations of meat puppetry until they have been proven or disproven. --JohnCrehan (talk) 17:25, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 3 March 2012
Can someone please add the characts Don Eppes, Charlie Eppes & Alan Eppes from the TV show Numb3rs to this list? Show: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numb3rs Don: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Eppes Charlie: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Eppes Alan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Eppes

You can see that they already appear on the specialized page Fictional American Jews: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Fictional_American_Jews Tpimtts (talk) 18:02, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Tpimtts (talk) 18:02, 3 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Done. Thank you for pointing it out. Tom Harrison Talk 18:29, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I've seen a lot of twisted topics on wiki, but a page for fictional jews? WTF? Why not also start an topic for scientifical orcs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sneakguest (talk • contribs) 15:05, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

Shaloman
Shaloman was removed with the comment "unclear if this is real - in any event, has no article". I readded Shaloman with a few more references. Let me know if more are needed. // Liftarn (talk)
 * null edit to date stamp -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  22:20, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Old version
I have replaced the old version which had many poor and unsourced claims with no context, with a version that has reliable sources and context. I have moved the old version below if anyone wants to see if any of the examples can be presented in an encyclopedic manner. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  19:53, 16 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I have reverted this bold restructure. My objections include:


 * A lack of preparatory discussion.
 * The proposed new structure seems over-complicated with too many columns. This makes the page more difficult to maintain and read.
 * The selection of entries seems poor. For example, why include Buddy Sorrell, who is not even a blue link, while excluding Hyman Kaplan (a personal favourite)?

Andrew (talk) 08:06, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree. The "details" column has lots of useful, well-sourced information, but it makes the list structure look very unbalanced. Do all the columns really need to be sortable? Year of publication might be useful, but I'm not sure about all the others. The old version was rather simple and lacking some sources, but it was about 10 times easier to read and assimilate. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:07, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The relevance of any character being Jewish is dependent upon many factors such as when the character was created, where it was created and the forum for which it was created. Hence, in order for this to be encyclopedic and not just "Hey, Lookey! I seen a Jew!!!" those elements should be included.
 * The fact that some Characters are currently listed and others aren't is simply the basis of what characters I was easily able to find a reliable source that provided some context as for why their being a Jewish character was relevant. Hyman can be next on the list if your objection is simply his current absence, however since the list is still heavily weighted to modern American representations, I had been focusing my searches on Jews from other places and times. --  TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  18:35, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

-

n

What's next?
List of Fictional Christians? List of Fictional Muslims? List of Fictional Hindus? List of Fictional Atheists? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:45, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * perhaps, if there are reliable sources that cover the subject in significant manner. But it is clear that "Jews in fiction" has been widely studied and written about topic for a very long time. --  TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  21:51, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe so. Isn't it rather biased to feature people of only one religion in this way? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:54, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, WP:Systemic bias exists. but we don't stop creating encyclopedic content about X because reliable sources have not covered Y. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  21:57, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. So we don't need to strive too hard for a neutral point of view because Fictional Jews have been a "widely studied and written about topic for a very long time". Hmmmm. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:07, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Nothing is stopping you from finding academic sources discussing Snake Handlers in fiction and creating a List of fictional snake handlers, but you are barking up the wrong tree if you think WP:NPOV says "But their ain't an article about List of fictional Wodinists and so you cannot edit List of fictional Jews" . -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  23:08, 5 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if Snake Handling is still a widely recognised religion. But for now, I'll just stick with my List of Cargo cult crime writers and my List of Prince Philip Movement Fashion Designers, thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:30, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Issue Related to First 3
Alright, as the "Bible", "Tanakh", and other religious texts are difficult to classify as '' "fiction" (or at least will be consistently debated) I propose taking out Esther, Elijah, and Deborah... Now I didn't do it already because I'm curious on other's opinions on this... UsernameTBD (talk) 00:08, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * the sources clearly identify the characters as described and utilized here as non-factual, ie fictional. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  00:55, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * No, that's not what the article promises: it specifically says characters from "works of fiction" (which is the appropriate standard). I don't even have to open the Eerdmans commentary to know that it does not hold the bible a "work of fiction", and in any case implying that it is such is not appropriate here. Mangoe (talk) 15:53, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

etc. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  01:25, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The Advocate: America's Jewish Journal: "Thus they produced some beautiful religious fiction. The books of Jonah, of Esther and of Ruth are examples to this point."
 * The Quick Reference Guide to the Catholic Bible "Tobit, Judith and Esther have a common genre, that of religious fiction, a kind of religious novel."
 * The Hebrew Bible: A Comparative Approach "Though the book [Esther] is set during the time of the Persian king Ahasuerus (another name for Xerxes, who ruled from 485 to 465 BCE) virtually all scholars agree that book is a piece of religious fiction that was written a century or mor after the events that it claims to narrate. The author is familiar with some aspects of Persian court life, but the book also contains a number of factual errors that would not have occurred if the story was based on actual events."
 * The New Oxford Annotated Bible "Despite the setting and the author's familiarity with Persian customs, vocabulary, and names, Esther is not a work of history but a historical novella, that is, a fictional story within a historical framework."
 * Esther: A Commentary "the historical problems with Esther are so massive as to persuade anyone who is not already obligated by religious dogma to believe in the historicity of biblical narrative to doubt the veracity of the narrative."
 * The Ever-present Presence -Albert Goldstein "Leaving aside these external indications, the reader who strutinizes the megillah text itself can find internal evidence which should impel him to exclaim 'Aren't you glad you know Esther is fiction? Don't you wish everyone did?'"

Esther
Why are Esther and some others listed as definitively fictional characters? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.190.255.2 (talk • contribs)
 * Because the sources identify them as fictional. (see below for more) -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  20:47, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Paul Feiffer and Harold Bergman

 * Also Paul Pfeiffer of 1988 TV series The Wonderful years and Harold Bergman of 90s cartoon Hey Arnold! are Jewish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.73.189.175 (talk) 20:04, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Do you have a reliably published source that will verify the claim and help place the information into an encyclopedic context? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  20:36, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

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Potok's characters need to e added.
Nothing from Chaim Potok?!Kdammers (talk) 07:28, 21 June 2017 (UTC)

creator
The creator column alphabetizes by first name -- Can someone adjust this, please. Kdammers (talk) 04:25, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

Cleanup
I removed a cleanup tag which gave the reason "the tabular format is not appropriate for the content it displays". The tabular format seems fine to me, and no specific, addressable reasoning was given for why it wasn't desirable. -- Mikeblas (talk) 13:36, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

Purpose of this article?
This list could easily be extended to no end - there must be thousands of fictional Jewish gangsters (Hyman Roth in Godfather 2, anyone?), Jews in novels, films and tv series relating to WW2 and the Holocaust, or even characters in modern Israeli and American-Jewish novels and films. :) I really can't see any real purpose to the article - it should be reduced to a category tag to put on those on the list who actually have their own articles. 195.67.149.172 (talk) 11:01, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Logically, there is an end. Fictional works are finite and most characters who appear in them are not identified as Jewish. The more pertinent question might be there are no articles for List of fictional Christians, List of fictional Muslims, etc? But I'd agree that the relative notability of fictional characters may be more hard to judge. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:11, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

by Chaim Potok
Asher Lev and other characters in novels by Chaim Potok. Kdammers (talk) 05:06, 19 November 2021 (UTC)