Talk:List of fictional trans characters/Archive 1

Additions?
Films featuring genderqueer/trans individuals: "Velvet Goldmines" "To Wong Fu, Thanks for Everything" "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert" "Hedwig & the Angry Inch"

South Park- Mr. Garrison transitions to become Mrs. Garrison; Also, Cartman's mom is intersex. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.212.7.205 (talk) 01:28, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Proposed merge with List of transgender characters in film and television
TV characters are already covered in the fictional characters list; doesn't seem to be sufficient reason to keep them separate. Thoughts? Marianna251TALK 18:27, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
 * List of transgender characters in film and television used be called Transgender in film and television, which was actually a more appropriate title and scope for the article. It acknowledged that transgender could be a theme in the work, and not something just incidental; List of transgender characters in film and television isn't even a list of characters, so in addition to being more restrictive the new title is a misnomer. Now the article is unhelpfully cluttered with films and series in which transgender themes and characters play only a minor role. A better approach might be to rename and reorganise List of transgender characters in film and television so that readers can more easily find the most relevant works. What do you think? —Ringbang (talk) 23:07, 12 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi! Sorry it's taken me so long to reply - I've been away from the site for a few months. Knowing the history makes the current state of List of transgender characters in film and television make much more sense; thanks for the info! Renaming and reorganising the film and television article sounds like a good idea.
 * For renaming, I'd be in favour of returning it to "Transgender in film and television", since that covers the bases a lot more thoroughly. If it works best as a list, an alternative could be "List of film and television shows with transgender themes". For reorganising, what do you think of having "Trans men", "Trans women" and "Depictions of both" as primary sections, each then split into "Major" and "Minor" subsections? It would mix film and TV together, but a sortable table with a "Film/TV" column would solve that. Splitting it into major and minor would then sift out the works that only have transgender people/issues as subplots. Thoughts? Marianna251TALK 21:32, 18 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Glad to have you back!I would love to see the article develop away from the list format. People love adding things to the list, but there's very little to tie the additions together: no sense of context, era, relationship, or significance. As the list grows, the content becomes more trivial, and finding the most relevant works becomes more difficult; reliable sources rarely appear. I think the article would work best if it resembled a literature review or history, but it will take a while to get there.You know, splitting the article into Transmasculinity in film and television and Transfemininity in film and television might actually clear the way to developing the content more fully. Otherwise, I agree that we should at least bring back the title "Transgender in film and television". For the list format, I think a masculine/feminine division is fine, but words like transmasculinity and transfemininity are less presumptuous. There seems to be an implicit preference for binary gender in categorising content in transgender lists. That reflects a cultural bias, and potentially original research in a viewer's interpretation of a character. When talking about works collectively, permutations of transmasculine and transfeminine avoid these problems, and are also more inclusive. —Ringbang (talk) 14:55, 22 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Good point about masculinity/femininity. I was going with the current sections in the article, but they felt awkward to me and I'm glad you've got an alternative.
 * I agree on moving the article move away from a list. I'd love to split the article as you describe into transmasculinity/transfeminity in film and TV, but that might be a goal for further down the line since it's going to take a lot of work to sort the article out without splitting it too. I've been playing around with ideas for content/layout my sandbox - it's just a rough layout with some notes right now, but I've tried to incorporate what we've discussed so far and I'd welcome your comments.
 * Since it seems we're in agreement not to merge, shall we close this merge discussion and move the rest of the conversation to Talk:List of transgender characters in film and television? Marianna251TALK 21:05, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Good idea, see you there. —Ringbang (talk) 18:19, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

Content Removal
Regarding this removal: From my talk page:
 * Hi David, the Film and Cartoon sections were small subsets of the more complete List of transgender characters in film and television. This isn’t a disruptive edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SpeakForMe (talk • contribs) 22:13, 1 January 2019 (UTC)

I understand you want to move the material to the other page. It can exist in both places with a summary version here. Please get more support per WP:BRD before removing again. --David Tornheim (talk) 22:54, 1 January 2019 (UTC)


 * This isn't a summary, it's a subset of the information on the other page. As per WP:MERGEREASON I believe this qualifies as a duplicate section, as they have the exact same scope. Do have your reasons for reverting as per WP:BRD? My understanding is that it encourages good faith bold editing, and that I don't need specific support? SpeakForMe (talk) 23:02, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes. You did not leave a subset:  You deleted *all* the content.  Maybe other editors support that, but I don't.
 * I'm not sure why you are referring to WP:MERGEREASON. The proposal to Merge failed.  See above.  --David Tornheim (talk) 23:09, 1 January 2019 (UTC)


 * That merge was for the whole page, and resulting plan was never implimented. The information is still duplicated and also looks like it covers the other 3 reasons for merging. What reasons do you have for reverting? SpeakForMe (talk) 23:25, 1 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Please read above:
 * Decision made not to merge, but to rename List of transgender characters in film and television to Transgender in film and television and expand its content instead. Marianna251TALK 15:18, 24 June 2017 (UTC)
 * --David Tornheim (talk) 23:46, 1 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Is that still happening? It looks like it has been abandoned, and the two pages have continued to be duplicates for the past couple of years. SpeakForMe (talk) 00:10, 2 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I don't see a problem with it the way it is. If you want to get a 3rd opinion WP:3O or start or start an WP:RfC, have at it.  Maybe other editors agree with you that it is a problem.  The way I see it, "if it's not broke, don't fix it."  --David Tornheim (talk) 00:14, 2 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Have you seen this page as well Media portrayals of transgender people? I find it really strange that there is so much overlap between the three pages. SpeakForMe (talk) 00:30, 2 January 2019 (UTC)


 * You can propose a WP:MERGE, like was done above. --David Tornheim (talk) 11:36, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

haruhi
any reason why she's on this list? If you haven't found one yet,I might be able to provide one:"Haruhi from Ouran High School Host Club is an androgynous girl who's living as a male student at her school due to specific circumstances. She says she doesn't think gender is important, which is just vague enough to have multiple interpretations including that Haruhi might be non-binary."- from the tvtropes article on the ambiguous gender identity trope. Masterball2 (talk) 04:29, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Suggestion
I believe that the title of this page should be shortened to List of transgender fictional characters. Thoughts? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:51, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Sure, that seems justified to me.--Historyday01 (talk) 13:39, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

George
The character George from Enid Blyton's book series The Famous Five shows all evidence of being trans. This is never explicitly mentioned in the books, as the concept of transgender people hadn't really entered the public eye and the term had yet to be invented. He is cited as one of the first trans characters in children's literature. The problem I'm having is that the only source I can find which states this explicitly is a blog, which I am averse to cite. Should I go looking for another source or just up and cite it? ᐉ Allie 849 (talk) 14:37, 8 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Unless it's specifically stated in the books or by the author, it's just speculation. It's like Nick from 'The Great Gatsby'. Perhaps he was gay, but it can never be proven one way or another. Bkatcher (talk) 01:59, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Abbreviating name of article
Should this article be re-named to just "List of trans fictional characters" ? That would cover both transgender and transsexual characters in a neatly simplified sentence. IseDaByThatEditsTheBoat (talk) 12:20, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Nice idea, though I'd go with 'List of fictional trans characters'. Bkatcher (talk) 13:50, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 26 May 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved. Mdaniels5757 (talk) 18:21, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

List of transgender and transsexual fictional characters → List of fictional trans characters – Trans is a simple umbrella term for transsexual and transgender. As well, most works rarely draw any distinction between transsexual and transgender persons, and the terms themselves are really quite slippy in terms of definition. IseDaByThatEditsTheBoat (talk) 23:36, 26 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose per all the reasons Talk:Trans had consensus not to move. Use of the prefix "trans" as a standalone word is ambiguous. -- Netoholic @ 02:03, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * For those curious about the status quo here is a comparison of titles using "trans" vs. "transgender". The latter seems to be significantly more common, though there are three significant articles that use "trans" outside of a proper name: Trans woman, Trans man, and Trans bashing. (Apologies if I missed any.) Colin M (talk) 03:49, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Support there is no real meaning behind 'trans' listed on the disambiguation page that u/Netoholic links to that is applicable to natural persons other than that of an abbreviation for transgender and transsexual. Further, several style guides, such as GLAAD Media's, list trans as a shorthand for transgender and transsexual. Yes, the entry does continue to say that it is a bit ambiguous, but again, no other real meaning from the disambiguation page applies to natural persons here. IseDaByThatEditsTheBoat (talk) 13:39, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Forgot to cite the GLAAD Media style guide: https://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender IseDaByThatEditsTheBoat (talk) 13:39, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Oppose – "trans" is a WP:Neologism, and the Trans page itself is a WP:DABPAGE. I'll take the WP:Precision of the current title over the proposed WP:Conciseness... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 01:31, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment - Not sure how it's a neologism when there are at least three articles on Wikipedia that attest to usage and cite said usage, per Colin M. IseDaByThatEditsTheBoat (talk) 01:29, 31 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Support Not ambiguous when applied to people. -- King of ♥ ♦</b><b style="color:black"> ♣</b><b style="color:black"> ♠</b> 20:13, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Support per ; there really is no ambiguity when it comes to people. And, really, "trans" doesn't fail WP:NEO at all. Sceptre (talk) 23:05, 4 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Oppose per the previous comments about "trans" being a more colloquial term than the specific and uniform "transgender". I support removing "transsexual", as transgender is sufficiently encompassing alone. With only two supports and two opposes (prior to my opposition here), this was closed very prematurely. Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:14, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Proposed addition to the List of fictional trans characters
•	Information to be added or removed: Please add the character Kevelynd Vyalt Vyndrak to the List of fictional trans characters. •	Explanation of issue: The character of Kevelynd Vyalt Vyndrak is not yet included on the List of fictional trans characters. :( Information about Kevelynd: Kevelynd Vyalt Vyndrak appears in The Garnet Crown (published on August 10, 2020). Kevelynd is an apothecary and guild master who lives and works in the city of Veldren. He is also a trans man who is living in stealth because the oppressive, classist society that the shadow-sorcerer, Zaldyan, has enforced on the planet of Aldrayon has created a dangerous world for transgender people to be out in.	•	References supporting change: Kevelynd's Fandom Wiki page: https://crimson-plumes.fandom.com/wiki/Kevelynd_(Vyalt)_Vyndrak

The Garnet Crown: https://www.amazon.ca/Garnet-Crown-Book-Crimson-Plumes-ebook/dp/B08FLWZM1L/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=the+garnet+crown&qid=1602991308&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExQU9MSlIyWUJHTE1BJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMTQ1NTY3MUs5MDdKQUZTOFY5OCZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMDM5MzExNTFVVTZZVURNNlgmd2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

Vincent Hunter press release in Surrey Now Leader Newspaper: https://www.surreynowleader.com/entertainment/transgender-surrey-brothers-debut-fantasy-novel-as-author-duo-vincent-hastings/

Vincent Hunter author page on Amazon: https://www.amazon.ca/kindle-dbs/entity/author/B08JHF2V31?ref_=dbs_p_ebk_r00_abau_000000

Vincent Hunter official website: https://vincenthunterofficial.wordpress.com/blog/ FirebornMana (talk) 03:39, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Well, @FirebornMana that seems like a sizable amount of sources already. The Vincent Hunter press release in Surrey Now Leader Newspaper seems to talk about the book generally and not mention any particular character. Similarly, with the Vincent Hunter official website it seems to, again, be general. So, those could be supporting references. Sadly, the fandom page doesn't cite any sources. However, doing some digging, I found the tweet of Vincent Hunter as a source, which says:

"Happy #NationalComingOutDay Be kind to yourself & take your time. You’re valid no matter if you’re out or not. We’re writing #ownvoices stories that include LGBTQIA+ characters. Kevelynd comes out as transgender in The Garnet Crown."

So, if you use the the tweet of Vincent Hunter as a primary source, while mentioning the Vincent Hunter press release in Surrey Now Leader Newspaper and perhaps mentioning the Vincent Hunter official website, then yeah, it would work as an entry. Historyday01 (talk) 16:05, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Entries that need better sourcing
Similar to the section I created on the Talk:List of fictional gay characters page. These are comics. --Historyday01 (talk) 19:50, 26 March 2021 (UTC)