Talk:List of folk metal bands

Removals
I removed Bathory and Borknagar, both have more Black/Viking elements and absolutely no folk. Darksteel 13:38, 22 August 2006 (UTC) Plus Ancient Rites. Darksteel 10:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC) And Isengard. The swedish band is Power metal, the norwegian Black Metal. Darksteel 10:49, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * And I removed bands that do not list folk/metal/pagan/celtic/whatever-redirects-to-folk metal on their pages. --Dayn 07:08, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I have removed Bathory (proto-viking at best), Battlelore (epic fantasy), Die Apokalyptischen Reiter (death/thrash), added "(early)" after Moonspell (it was death/black next and is now black/gothic according to Encyclopedia Metallum), System of a Down (how did this get in here?), and Tanzwut (classified as medieval rock, not folk/medieval metal) JRDarby 16:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Viking Metal
I question the inclusion of Viking Metal within the folk metal list. I realize that viking metal appeals to a certain type of folk-ish crowd, but is it really folk itself? Or, alternatively, is the difference small enough to allow its inclusion? JRDarby 16:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Orphaned Land
Should Orphaned Land be in there? Although they don't have any Celtic or Viking influences, they do have middle-eastern folk influence. Just wondering. ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 12:11, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Their predominance as prog seems to take away from their folkish "influences." I would say no. JRDarby 00:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Then it will be hard for Oriental metal bands to be noticed. Hardly any of them get linked at any major/general articles but at the oriental article. If a basis of their composition is folk then I think it should be added. Or that would be against most folk bands that happen to play folk in their own ethnic style, so it seems the list is biased against any groups other than European, where the scene most prominently took off. − ₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪  kaiden  00:33, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course Orphaned Land should be included in the list. They are primarily known as a folk metal band first and foremost with progressive tendencies second. Folk metal is not and has never been exclusive to european folk. --Bardin (talk) 11:28, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "Folk metal is not and has never been exclusive to european folk." Of coarse not but the list just looks like that's where folk metal most prominently took off. − ₪ÇɨгcaғucɨҲ₪  kaiden  21:31, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

(Countries)?
Would anyone object if I take out the country names in ? The List of power metal bands, List of progressive metal artists, and others just have the country flags, and I think it looks much less cluttered that way. Gueneverey 03:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Go for it :) thanks JRDarby 06:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I ended up finishing it up myself yesterday but forgot to say so. Great idea :) JRDarby 22:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Just to remind people that unless a reason other than "I think it looks better", including flagicons in this list contravenes WP:FLAG as discussed here. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 11:06, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Waylander / Flag Issue
I thought the article looked odd without a flag icon next to Waylander when every other band has one. I erroneously assumed that was a mere oversight by past editors. I was not aware that there's an issue with the Northern Ireland flag until I noticed that JRDarby removed the flag icon. So if the Ulster Banner cannot be used, should the Union Jack flag be used instead? Or is Waylander forever going to be without flag in this list. Would it make a difference if the band has a preference? Just wondering. --Bardin (talk) 04:50, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not really sure how to treat it myself. I only removed the flag icon because BigDunc had done it before me using WP:Flag and I realized it was correct. :\ JRDarby (talk) 19:59, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That is a problem with using flags IMO as NI has no flag it is wrong to use the Ulster Banner. See hereBigDunc (talk) 20:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Evidence or Lack Thereof
I'd love to see the list expanded to include more folk metal bands. There are already some names on the list that I'm not familiar with and I took the opportunity to find out more about them with the hope that I can eventually add them to my collection of folk metal music. Of the bands that I looked up today, I found that three of them were not really folk metal bands. Or more precisely, that there's a lack of evidence that they are folk metal bands. Namely, Negura Bunget, Hate Forest and Drudkh. All three of them are black metal bands and are identified as such online. There's little that I can find that describes them any of these three bands as folk metal and what I did found consisted of either chatter on forums or fan reviews. These are obviously not reliable sources. You can find many other bands being described as one thing or another by fans on messageboards. Most of the time though, the bands are just described as black metal with hardly any mention of the word folk. Now I cannot say that I am familiar with the music of these bands though I've heard a few songs from myspace pages made by fans. If somebody really wish to insist that these bands are folk metal, then I'd like to see some evidence in the form of a professional review (like All Music Guide) or a self-identification by the band as folk metal in an interview or on their website. Negura Bunget's website identifies themselves as black metal with no mention that I could find of folk metal. Neither Hate Forest or Drudkh have an official website that I could find. I would also like to see more than one evidence, if that's possible. After all, even professional reviewers are human and prone to error. The more professional reviewers there are that identifies a band as folk metal, the more likely it is that they are not making a mistake.

Some of the other obscure bands that I looked up today passed this test so of course, they remain in the list even though I haven't heard their music (I would like to though). The Metal Archives is a good indicator but it's not perfect. Wintersun is not listed there as folk metal but an online search indicates that they are a folk metal band. The Metal Archives does not identify Negura Bunget, Hate Forest or Drudkh as folk metal. I suspect black metal bands might be more easily confused as folk metal bands because a lot of black metal bands do feature atmospheric and acoustic passages in their music. Couple that with pagan or heathen lyrics and it's understandable why some people might mistake them as folk metal. --Bardin (talk) 06:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Wintersun are certainly not a folk metal band. I think people assume that they might be because Jari used to be in Ensiferum, but a few accoustic passages aside, there's nothing folky about them.  Also, there's no interview I've ever seen in which Jari identifies them as such, he usually says something along the lines of "epic majestic melodic death metal" or something - Tulloch Gorum  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.35.212.48 (talk) 22:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * More question marks. As I've mentioned quite a few times over wikipedia now, I've been working on improving the folk metal article over at my personal sandbox. I've been using this list of folk metal bands as something of a guide. I would never have thought of mentioning Amorphis in the article, for instance, until I noticed the band on this list and did an online search for some reliable sources. Two other bands caught my attention: Ulver and In Flames. Both bands released debut albums in 1994. This is supposedly their connection to folk metal. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find any reliable sources that I can use to mention either one of them in the article. The metal archives does tag Ulver as "Black/Folk Metal (1993-1996)" but that's not a reliable source. The review on Allmusic.com describes Ulver's debut album as alternating between "sections of grim, blasting black metal" and "quiet, folk-like acoustic passages." No mention of the two being presented together. Even the infobox on wikipedia for the Ulver page tags them as black metal and folk music separately - not together as in folk metal. Which begs the question then: why is Ulver in this list of folk metal bands and also in the category of folk metal group? Likewise, I could find no reliable source describing the debut album for In Flames as folk metal. Not Allmusic.com nor Rockdetector.com nor any interview or review. The closest thing is the review at metalcoven.com that describes the album as having an "almost folk metal feel." That's almost. Not quite the same thing as actually having a folk metal feel. Another review at metalreview.com describes the album as having "an obvious folk influence, but they tend to keep it separate, with fiddle instrumentals and such, rather than blending it into the meat of the songs." Similar to the Ulver album. I'm not really able to use any of these reviews to describe either band's debut album as folk metal. The only use I have for these reviews would be to describe Ulver and In Flames as not ever being folk metal, much in the same way that I used a couple of reviews and an interview to describe Evanescence as a non-metal band in the gothic metal article. So now the question is: can anyone direct my attention to some reliable source describing the debut album of Ulver or In Flames as folk metal? If not, then why are they in this list of folk metal bands? I'd appreciate a response but if none is forthcoming in time, I will take it upon myself to remove both bands from this list. --Bardin (talk) 07:36, 11 March 2008 (UTC)


 * More bands that I'm raising the red flag for. Similar reasons to the above. No reliable sources that I could find indicating the bands were ever folk metal. Isengard, Graveland and Moonspell in addition to Ulver and In Flames. I was too tired to bother adding them onto the newly arranged table format so none of these bands are on the list right now. If you feel that I'm mistaken and that there's reliable sources to indicate these bands as folk metal, then by all means add them back into the list and alert me of the reliable sources you've found and that I missed. --Bardin (talk) 15:36, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


 * And there's more. Ancient Rites, Einherjer, Fjoergyn, Haggard, Kiuas, Vanaheim and Verbal Deception have all been removed from this list. As always, if you know of any reliable source that indicates these bands are folk metal, add them back in with the reference(s). Note that every band left on the list has one or more reference provided. I only had time to add one reference each for most of the bands on the list but I think it would be a good idea to add more than one and I might do so in future. Žalvarinis was particularly difficult to find any reference for and the one source I found is an interview not with anyone from Zalvarinis but another fairly obscure band Poropetra. I make no comments or judgments though as to whether Zalvarinis deserve to be on wikipedia given that the internet and google search tend to be heavily bias in favor of the english language and Zalvarinis come from a fairly obscure European country known as Lithuania with music performed in their native language. I would not ordinarily use the interview with Poropetra as a reference but I was not able to find anything else that I can use as a reference for Zalvarinis. At least, the interview explicits identify Zalvarinis as folk metal with that precise term.
 * I also removed Godheim and Death Army from the list. Neither of them even have an album out. Only demos. It occurs to me that they probably should not be on wikipedia but I'm not in the least bit interested to nominate any article for deletion now. Perhaps in the future if nobody else gets to it first. --Bardin (talk) 11:56, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I added Drudkh and Moonspell back in after I found some sources. --Bardin (talk) 13:02, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Ulver
I raised this issue at the reliable sources noticeboard and it's been archived here. I was told that reliable sources can make mistakes and we should use our editorial judgment. The New York Times article being used to support Ulver is full of mistakes, inventing non-existent neologism ("trench metal", "new york squatter metal", "extreme ambient", "machine assisted metal", "turncoat metal"), mixing up genres (sludge/stoner, black ambient/darkwave), and misidentifying bands (Pantera/Sepultura/Brutal Truth/Kreator as power metal), etc. If Ulver and Einherjer are really folk metal, surely there would be other multiple sources saying as much and we won't have to use this error-filled NYT article at all. --Anarchodin (talk) 05:28, 5 May 2009 (UTC)


 * You might want to refrain yourself from reverting the anonymous editor if he or she adds the Ulver entry again as that would be an edit war and it will get you blocked. As you can see from the above entry on this talk page, I was not able to find any reliable sources describing Ulver as a folk metal band when I rewrote/revamp the folk metal article and this accompanying list. Consequently, I excluded them from both article and list, as I did with those other acts that I listed above. I did not encounter this article from the New York Times and I have no idea how I would have reacted to it if I had read it back then. I think the response from the reliable sources noticeboard is right in that reliable sources can make mistake. Allmusic, for instance, is a reliable source but among other things, it tags Nightwish as a symphonic black metal band. That's the sort of thing where we should use our "editorial judgment". Anyway, your suggestion sounds fine to me. I actually feel that every entry on these sort of lists should have multiple sources, not just those that are contentious or in dispute. --Bardin (talk) 16:37, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, regardless of whether I think Ulver or any band in this list plays folk metal, I believe that once another editor in good faith, questions the credibility of a source, other reliable sources should be sought and cited if they exist. So Ulver shouldn't be re-added to the list unless other reliable sources are cited as well.--Nova Weaver (talk) 22:44, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

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