Talk:List of football clubs in England by competitive honours won/Archive 1

Fairs Cup
It Should be Taken Out of the Article As it Is Not Recognized By Uefa.

Well it was a major trophy once so should be in there, but i agree that it should not be included with CWC and UEFA cup. Maybe a separate column would be more appropriated.Gero13 (talk) 00:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it's about the same stature as the UC and UCWC, and the UCWC, while still official, is obsolete too. Pellucidity (talk) 07:04, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

It should surely be included as it is the early format of the Uefa Cup. The inter-toto however should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.112.97.116 (talk) 00:17, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

The Fairs Cup should be removed from the records as UEFA themselves do not consider them to be a UEFA Recognised competition:-

http://en.archive.uefa.com/uefa/news/kind=1/newsid=2571.html

''Fairs Cup The UEFA Cup replaced the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup in the 1971/72 season. The list of finals from that competition are listed below, but please note that the Fairs Cup is not considered a UEFA competition, and hence clubs' records in the Fairs Cup are not considered part of their European record.''

Super Cup & Intercontinental Cup
These Cups are frequently mentioned by various clubs as major Honours. Why sre they not included here?Gero13 (talk) 00:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

To win these cups you only have to beat one team... the achievement is in playing in them in the first place by winning the European or Cup Winners'/UEFA Cup, which is recognised in this table. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Villafancd (talk • contribs) 09:10, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I have added the Club World Cup, as that is a tournament rather than a playoff (and FIFA wants it to be a big deal), since an English team has now won it. For consistency, that means including the Intercontinental Cup it replaced, which is not ideal, but with only one winner, it's not muddying the data much. Pellucidity (talk) 07:04, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know if the Intercontinental Cup needed to be included, firstly because FIFA does not consider it a predecessor, it does not merge the records. And on the Club world cup, what ever FIFA wants it to be, it still isn't a big deal, I wouldn't consider it major. &mdash; CHAN  DLER #10 &mdash; 07:09, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't have a good NPOV reason to exclude it, as FIFA includes wins in both in their club profiles. Pellucidity (talk)

I think that both the Super Cup and the Intercontinental Cup should be included as major honours. What about the FA Community Shield? - Sthenel (talk) 12:45, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The Guardian cite is reasonable NPOV justification for considering the Shield to be less important than the others. Pellucidity (talk) 02:13, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * See Featured list candidates/List of football clubs in England by major honours won/archive1 for more info about what to and what not to include. Peanut4 (talk) 02:27, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I have taken a look at it, and I would agree the Guardian piece is the best cite going for major. That said, it predates the Club World Cup, which, as cited, FIFA considers an honor. The tricky part is this lets the Intercontinental Cup in, but since FIFA recognizes it, I don't have a good cite for excluding it. Pellucidity (talk) 02:31, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I am removing the citation needed for the information about the CWC and ICC, and providing the best thing I could find on FIFA's site. Please discuss here before reverting this change. I still question the necessity of providing citations here for information which appears unsupported in the main articles. Wikipedia may not be self-referencing, but it's inconsistent to say a fact needs a cite on one page and not another. Pellucidity (talk) 22:33, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Charity/Community shield not regarded as major by our source.
We take our definition of "major" from This disucssion 1n the Guardian. One off matches such as the Charity Shield or the European Supercup are excluded. The above thread explains previous discussion. Clarifying this issue was a significant issue when this became a featured list. Any change in the definition we use would therefore require talk page discussion and referencing to a WP:Reliable source agreed to be a better authority on this than the Guardian. Actually more than one source would be better.


 * This is inconsistent. According to that Guardian article, the FA Community Shield, UEFA Super Cup and Intercontinental Cup are not 'major trophies'. Yet in the table, in the European column, there is the 'ESC' which I assume is the 'European Super Cup'. So if the FA Community Shield isn't included, then the UEFA Super Cup shouldn't be included either. However, I think personally that all of the trophies included in that Guardian article should be shown here (League, FA Cup, League Cup, Community Shield, Champions League, Europa League, Super Cup, Cup Winners Cup, Club World Cup and Intercontinental Cup). Just because the Community Shield, Super Cup and Intercontinental Cup only take one game to win, it doesn't mean they're not major trophies. VoiceCom80 (talk) 16:05, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Inter-Toto Cup
The Inter Toto was and is recognised by UEFA as one of their major trophies. It should be included in the list. The FAIRS Cup (an invite only tournament was never recognised as a proper competitive trophy in its purest sense is NOT recognised by UEFA in any shape or form and should be removed from the list. (See www.UEFA.com).  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.78.20.36 (talk) 13:51, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Is this included or not? I have edited in Newcastles recent win as it seemed to be missing, however it would also seem that other winners are missing, Fulham for example and Aston Villa. I have not edited these (and others) wins of this cup. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.112.97.116 (talk) 19:56, 2 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I think that it oughtn't to be included as it isn't really a major trophy. But then why is its acronym included at the bottom?--Peter cohen (talk) 11:45, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I think we should remove it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.112.97.116 (talk) 00:16, 28 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The Intertoto Cup can't be considered a 'major trophy' because it had multiple winners each season and was basically used as a pre-season competition for qualification for the UEFA Cup. VoiceCom80 (talk) 16:10, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Totally agreed, Intertoto Cup isn't considered a major trophy, it was just a ticket for the UEFA Cup. - Sthenel (talk) 11:59, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Do we really need this article at all?
I don't think this article needs to exist at all. We already have the Football records in England article which features a full table of trophies won, and this can be adjusted by the user for easy comparison. This article basically repeats part of that table for no particular purpose. I'm thinking of nominating this article for deletion. What does everyone else think? VoiceCom80 (talk) 16:15, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

No, I like it. Provides a quick overview of all the trophies, not just the records page. Maybe they could be merged though. --Villafancd (talk) 22:12, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

Corrected Table
I just reordered the table, and corrected some maths errors within. The new table is ordered by Total honours, then greatest number of domestic honours, then highest league wins, FA cup wins, League Cup wins, EC/CL Wins*, Other European Competition Wins*, International Competition Wins*, and finally just alphabetical order. (*These three aren't yet needed)

I chose this method of breaking ties because it rewards teams with success in different eras, as European wins are generally the result of other successes. One could also make a case for rating European successes higher, as they are generally more difficult to achieve, but this is only really a factor for teams with less than about 4 competition wins. I can see this being a problem if Fulham were to win the Europa League this year, as most would regard that as tougher than a League Cup Win.

If my current sorting system isn't agreeable, I would suggest ordering by Total, League, EC/CL, FAC, UC/EL/Etc., LC, ICC/CWC, Alphabetical. mpbx (talk) 19:02, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

European Super Cup
Shouldn't be in here. Teams are rewarded in this table for winning the European Cup/Cup Winners' Cup. This is just one tie. I'm pleased we won it but it shouldn't count as a 'major' trophy. Villafancd (talk) 11:54, 29 May 2011 (UTC) Agreed.Super Cup is just a one off match like the Charity/Community Shield.If it's included then so should the Charity/Community Shield of which it is the European equivalent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.198.216 (talk) 05:54, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Liverpool should be top of this list
For a couple of reasons.

1) Major honours are the title, the two domestic cups, the European Cup, The UEFA Cup and the old cup winners cup. None of the rest are major titles. Nothing you can win by playing just one or two games is a major title so the world club cup should not be considered, it's an early season friendly tournament that nobody cares about. If it was important it would not be played in Japan where the time difference means very few people watch it.

2) Even as things stand, Liverpool should be number 1. Alphabetical preference is always taken in any table as since L comes before M, Liverpool should be ahead of Manchester United. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.180.194 (talk) 09:46, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Totally disagree with this.The World club cup is a FIFA run competition that in some areas of the world is seen as second only to the World cup itself.Sounds crazy but that is how it is viewed elsewhere.Only in England is it dismissed probably because most British clubs have failed in it especially Liverpool on four occasions of course.For a club not from Europe or South America to win it they need to win up to four games.A near full tournament.It is of far greater importance then one off matches like the shield or super cup.
 * Those would be regions of the world where either (1) People have too little understanding of the nature of sporting legitimacy to recognise that a serious tournament should include all the plausible contenders, or (2) Where people have an inferiority complex which makes them cling to implausible fantasies which happen to stroke their national ego. A real club world championship would have to include multiple teams from Europe and several from South America. The current competition is not a legitimate tournament to find the best club in the world, but a marketing/revenue generating event for FIFA, a opportunity for FIFA executives to go on a jolly, a vote-garnering device for FIFA elections, and at best a device for marketing football in the weaker footballing continents. It should not be included in this list. 86.16.249.132 (talk) 18:38, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

As for Alphabetical what you seem to be suggesting is team beginning with A wins 10 league cups and team beginning with B wins 10 European cups.Team beginning with A is is placed above them despite winning much smaller competitions because of the alphabet.Nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.238.27 (talk) 14:10, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Nonsense to include the World Club Cup and yet not include the UEFA sanctioned European Super Cup. The only reason to include the recently enacted World Club Cup is an attempt to artificially inflate Manchester United's trophy haul.

You could even argue that the UK's Super Cup in 1986 was a more major honour at the time. TheManWhoSaw (talk) 00:22, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

That is merely your opinion, and the reason for the inclusion of the Club World Cup and the exclusion for the European Super Cup has nothing to do with with club favoritism, but rather the fact that one represents the FIFA-recognized world championship and the other is merely a curtain-raising prestige match. Each of the titles included represent a particular achievement: the Premier League for the national championship, the FA Cup for the national cup, League Cup for secondary cup, Champions League/European Cup for the continental championship, the Europa League/UEFA Cup/Cup Winners' Cup for secondary continental, and the Intercontinental Cup/Club World Cup for world championship. What does the European Super Cup represent other than the beginning of the European season? -- Fifty7 (talk) 05:11, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I could not agree with Fifty7 more.I see no difference between the Charity/community shield and the European super cup.The World club cup involves several sides and carries a real title at the end of it - World Champions.

Regarding the Screensport super cup.As I recall this was a one off competition that was never repeated through lack of interest before the final.I also recall there was so little interest that the final was actually played in a different season to the rest of the competition! To seriously consider this as a major trophy you would also have to include numerous pre season trophies won by clubs.Surely this cannot be considered major on any level. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.238.27 (talk) 14:49, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Either stick to five major honours, or have all FIFA/UEFA sanctioned trophies
We have to remove all petty rivalries, there needs to be uniformity. There are a total of five major honours. The League Title, FA Cup, League Cup, UEFA Champions League, UEFA Cup/Europa League. Thats it. The UEFA sanctioned Super Cup, and the FIFA sanctioned Club world cup, are glorified friendlies, and in England are seen as such. However, if we are to disregard how they "are seen" and include official UEFA and FIFA sanctioned trophies, then both UEFA Super Cup and FIFA Club cup should be included. Regarding the club cup/intercontintal, it has never been taken seriously in England. Liverpool refused to play in the first two, and other two they did they arrived in Japan on the day of the game. Manchester United did not want to play in 2000, and only did so as the FA pressurised them so as not to affect the campaign to host the World Cup. The same year Manchester U played in the intercontintal 2 months before.. so they played in TWO world clubs in the same season (my goodness..two cracks at it), whereas for teams in the following years there was only one. Its a mismash event that is perceived as a nuisance. In conclusion, we either have the generally perceived major honours (League, FA Cup, League Cup, Champions League, UEFA Cup), or we have all FIFA/UEFA sanctioned trophies. Its one or the other, we cant cherry pick bits from either.Chie one (talk) 15:14, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * "Glorified friendlies" is again nothing but a dismissive opinion, and nothing I argued or 194.66.238.27 agreed with has been refuted. -- Fifty7 (talk) 16:01, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I have refuted your points above and below. 86.16.249.132 (talk) 18:39, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism
Someone falsely edited Liverpool FC's record along with the addition of a wholly unnecessary obscenity. Someone else has removed Chelsea FC from the table altogether (if my eyes have not glanced over them). Should this page be locked to open editing as clearly some people are abusing it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.203.150.7 (talk) 19:17, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Minor honours
I hope I can come to this reasonably unbiased since my team (Chelsea) is about to enter the Club World Cup, but the CWC really isn't a major trophy at all. If you look at the build up to Chelsea's season, it really is being treated as a campaign for four trophies, with the Community Shield, the UEFA Super Cup and the Fifa CWC treated as friendlies and diversions. If we win the CWC and one of the four main trophies, we can't claim to have won as many major honours as Aston Villa any more than we could make that claim if we win the Super Cup again.83.244.128.162 (talk) 12:48, 25 July 2012 (UTC) I have to disagree with this.As mentioned elsewhere on this page the CWC carries a meaningful title - World champions.It involves the champions of all the continents and potentially can involve four games for a lower seeded club to win it.It's very highly regarded in South America and many countries in Europe.Personally I would consider it a major trophy for Chelsea to win this season.By contrast the Community shield is a one match domestic curtain raiser and the European super cup fills the same role for European football.The winners of these trophies carry no clear title and although they count as competitive games they surely can't be considered major. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhw99 (talk • contribs) 09:31, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * It involves too few teams to be a credible competition. Only two of the teams present are in the top what, twenty, fifty, maybe even one hundred clubs in the world? Anyone who thinks that winning it makes the winners world champions in any legitimate sense is lacking in understanding of the nature of sporting legitimacy. 86.16.249.132 (talk) 18:32, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

That is a very dismissive opinion.As for the best ranked sides in the world playing in the world club cup you could actually say the same of the world cup itself.Countries play in that often qualify simply because of the region of the world they have qualified from.More likely than not if they had been placed in a European or South American qualifying group they would not have qualified.Yet I don't see anyone questioning the sporting ligitimacy of the winners of the World cup.FIFA set out the finals that way to have a real representation of the different regions of world football in the finals.Personally I think thats the right decision.The winners of the the World cup deserve the title of World champions as does the winners of the World Club cup at club level.In my opinion it's very much a major trophy and will I believe grow in years to come. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.238.27 (talk) 13:00, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Chelsea fans keep adding full members cup this is not a major trophy or even running any more and should not count to major honours — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.64.112.221 (talk) 15:15, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

SC & CWC: Both or Neither
If the Club World Cup is to be counted as a "major" honour, then so should the Super Cup. If the Super Cup is to be excluded, then the CWC should be as well. You cannot have it both ways.

''That is merely your opinion, and the reason for the inclusion of the Club World Cup and the exclusion for the European Super Cup has nothing to do with with club favoritism, but rather the fact that one represents the FIFA-recognized world championship and the other is merely a curtain-raising prestige match. Each of the titles included represent a particular achievement: the Premier League for the national championship, the FA Cup for the national cup, League Cup for secondary cup, Champions League/European Cup for the continental championship, the Europa League/UEFA Cup/Cup Winners' Cup for secondary continental, and the Intercontinental Cup/Club World Cup for world championship. What does the European Super Cup represent other than the beginning of the European season?''

"curtain-raising prestige match" and you accuse other arguments of being merely opinion! The only tangible difference between the CWC and the SC is the label someone has given it. The EPL/FAC/LC/UCL/UEL are considered major because a team has to come through a series of competitive matches over the course of a season to win them. SC/CWC are essentially an exhibition match that a couple of teams are entered into based on past accomplishments. To contest the Super Cup you have to win a major trophy and play against another team who won a major trophy. To contest the CWC you have to win a major trophy and play for it against another club who won a major trophy. Sounds a lot like the Community Shield to me and no one considers that a Major! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.108.238 (talk) 14:46, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The article states:

"This is a list of the major honours won by football clubs in England. It lists every English football club to have won any of the three major domestic trophies and six major European competitions which have existed at different times, or the two global competitions FIFA recognises.  These honours consist of the English football championship&mdash;The Football League up to 1992 or Premier League thereafter&mdash;the FA Cup, the League Cup, the Champions League or its predecessor the European Cup, the European Cup Winners' Cup, the UEFA Europa League or its predecessors the UEFA Cup and Inter-Cities Fairs Cup, and the FIFA Club World Cup or its predecessor the Intercontinental Cup." Your "both or neither" supposition is based solely on personal opinion and not proven and cited consensus. Please end your edit crusade. -- Fifty7 (talk) 07:26, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

You cut and pasted the introduction. Is that supposed to win the argument? There isn't even a source for the CWC being a major honor.

PS. What consensus?

86.186.150.237 (talk) 09:42, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

The point is your insistence to include the UEFA Super Cup but NOT the FA Community Shield is an inconsistency that can't be ignored. You must either make the case for including both (an argument I'm not opposed to listening to) or neither (which would be my ideal), but one and not the other is not acceptable. THAT, I think, is our biggest conundrum here. As for the other issue, I think it's a hypocritical argument to advocate for the inclusion of the UEFA Super Cup citing UEFA's insistence of it as an official competition, but to then turn around and say FIFA's insistence of the CWC as an official competition doesn't count as a citation. I acknowledge that your personal opinion of the World Championship is the similar to mine on the preseason matches, but both of our personal opinions are irrelevant. What matters is recognition, and the CWC is recognized as a major honor while the preseason prestige matches are not; if you want sources, here some are: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Finally, I'm going to revert your last edit for now, solely because it's a unilateral edit and not because I disagree with it, in the hopes that we can stave off another edit war and reach a consensus here first, or else the page will end up with semi-protection status. In good faith towards that goal, please do not continue to edit unilaterally. If we were to include the Super Cups, they'd have to be in a column together, and placed into the key accordingly ("FACS" under 'Major Domestic Competitions', "USC" under 'Major European Competitions', "FACS & USC" being the column header). Again, it's my personal opinion that they should not be included, and changes should not be made until a consensus is reached, but if we were to agree on that then that's how it should be implemented. -- Fifty7 (talk) 13:17, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

You had 5 days to discuss this and didn't. I edited the article and within an hour you were back on the page unilaterally reverting to your preferred version. Let's not go pretending you have some objection to unilateral edits. Your actions have been equally unilateral.

Yes my argument is hypocritical but so is yours. I don't regard the SC or CWC as majors. But if you absolutely insist on counting the CWC as a major then I don't see a reason to exclude the SC.

None of those articles have me convinced that the CWC is a major honor. They're written by individuals who think it is (or want to persaude me it is). 10 secs of googling will also bring up sources which treat the SC as a major. or deride the CWC Further more this article  was the original source for this page and does not mention the IC, CWC or SC.

The real problem with this page is the word major. It's like having an article List of the Presidents of the United States by how great they were. One guy is going to have a different interpretation to another. I now suggest modelling it on List of football clubs in Italy by major honours won, which includes every competitive honor.

86.168.47.20 (talk) 15:01, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with modelling it after List of football clubs in Italy by major honours won -- Fifty7 (talk) 15:53, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

The major honours to be won in England are: Domestic: League, FA and League Cups. European: Champions League, UEFA Cup / Europa League

These are the only major honours. Anything which is a two club tournament shouldn't, and isn't classified as a major honour. The Community Shield isn't major for instance, not everyone has the chance of winning it. Also, the Full Members Cup and English Super Cup should not be considered major as they were temporary tournaments introduced into the country.

Also, there is no plausible reason to base what is considered major in this country on what another country considers major. Italy only has 2 cup competitions and both are highly regarded, the same goes in Spain. However in England we are similar to Germany in that the equivalent of the Community Shield is not regarded as an important honour. This is why CS has never been included in this article in the past, before fanboyism rivalry between Man U / Liverpool fans has destroyed the credibility of the original page.

It is also worth noting that Italy only includes 6 major honours, the same should be included in England (League, 2 Cups, 2 European and possibly CWC), and does not include any of their honours which are many years old and now defunct, ie. their equivalents of FMC and ESC.

Who decides what is a major? Some would argue about the Capital One Cup's status. Most big clubs treat it as an inconvenience rather than a major. The fairest way is to include every competitive honor rather than just ones that someone has decided are "major". By the way the Coppa Italia is not that highly regarded in Italy. Of the major leagues its only England where the domestic cup carries a lot of prestige. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.6.190 (talk) 16:25, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Of course the League Cup is major. It is one of the two cups in the English league and all teams want to win it, despite what the fans of 'big' clubs expect. I would be ecstatic if my club won the LC. Swansea's fans were. Birmingham's fans were. All fans are.

Major trophies are those which contribute towards a treble. New section about this is below.81.132.251.75 (talk) 18:50, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

That's your opinion. So who decides what is a major trophy? You? Coming up with some new criteria about 'trophies which contribute to a treble' is also just your opinion. If that's the case then why do I still see the CWC in the article? What you think is a major is not the same as what someone else thinks. The user Fify7 is adamant that the CWC is a major. I don't think it is. Someone else will dispute the LC's major status. The whole content of this article is based on POV. It should be changed to List of football clubs in England by honours won — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.107.186 (talk) 10:37, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

There is already a page for all tom dick and harry trophies. People want a page for major trophies. I do also feel maybe CWC shouldn't be in there, I think it should just be PL/FA/LC/CL/EL but Fify7 has a point, and the CWC does have some merit. None of the others added at the moment do however. I don't know what your agenda is but Super Cup, Community Shield etc. are not major trophies. Please also don't say the League Cup isn't major. It's clear from this that you support one of the big clubs, and to dismiss it as not major is arrogant. This page was fine before you came along editing it, so it should stay as it was and has always been accepted as. In no world can the trophies you add to this list be considered major, not from any perspective it is looked at from, they're just not. The content is not based on POV of one person, it has been accepted this way for years from the POV of many people. Also no, I don't decide what major is, public perception does. And anyone tuned into public life knows that the major trophies are PL/FA/LC/CL/EL. 81.157.60.78 (talk) 12:31, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Show me some evidence of this "public perception". Type Mickey Mouse + League cup [or Europa League/Club World Cup] into Google and you get over 700000 results. Hows that for public perception ? If the CWC has some merit then so does does the SC. You cannot argue differently. Saying it was this or that way before, therefore it should stay that way is a completely asinine argument. AS you can see from this talk page many people have been disputing the content since 2009. The only way to end this dispute is to include every competitive honor, not just ones you think are major. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.107.186 (talk) 12:53, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

You are the only person arguing for the SC to be included. No one else is. Everyone else is fine with it as what is it. 81.157.60.78 (talk) 13:29, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Everyone else ? Have you read this talk page?! There was a consensus to include every competitive honor until you came along and stirred things up again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.107.186 (talk) 14:32, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Here is a list of what is considered major. "The last time each English club won a Major Trophy - the League Championship, the FA Cup, the League Cup or a major European honour (European Cup / Champions League, European Cup Winner's Cup or UEFA Cup / Europa League". The CWC is included on this list on the basis that it is the Football World Championship, albeit a bit weak.

And a quote from talksport, which should be considered as quite a reasonable view of English football, even if it is talksport: There is an unwritten rule in football that any trophy labelled a 'Super Cup' is really not that super at all. Super Cups are mostly pre-season matches between teams that won far more important trophies the previous season. In England, this ceremonial curtain-raiser for the new season was known as the 'Charity Shield' for nearly 100 years, because the proceeds went to good causes - makes sense, right? It changed name in 2002 to the 'Community Shield', but around the globe other countries insist on calling these glorified friendlies super cups. By that definition, Superman should henceforth be known in England as 'Tinpotman'.

Therefore it should be final that the list include PL/FA/LC/CL/EL/CWC. L1265746 (talk) 13:38, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

You found an article on talksport's website which agrees with you, and that makes it "final" ? Do I really have to dig up a bunch of articles dismissing these competitions? Your first link does not recognize the CWC or ICFC as major honors, but i see you found a way around that. The talksport link makes no mention of the CWC either.

If talksport is now the final word on this, then have a look at this article, which counts the Super Cup and Community Shield alongside other honors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.107.186 (talk) 14:15, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

That page lists every single competition, including the Intertoto Cup and the Confederations Cup which is not what we're trying to get a source for. We are all trying to source major honours. Look, the guy provided you with links to prove the viewpoint of the public, and they're not acceptable to you for some bizarre reason. Go and edit the page for all honours if you want, but this page is for major honours, not for you to come and decide to make it into another all honours page. Personally I don't want the Club World Cup in there, but it looks like there are 3 people who are happy with there being these 6 on this page, versus only you wanting more. 81.157.60.78 (talk) 14:32, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

It's hard to take articles like that seriously when the people who post them then ignore what they say. That myfootballfacts article does not count the CWC or ICFC as majors [it specifically excludes the ICFC], so why are those titles still in the article ? Is it a definitive source or isn't it ? You can't just cherry pick the parts that agree with you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.107.186 (talk) 14:46, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

It is fine in there because it is the World Championship tournament. Not a one off fixture. Three people agree with 6 tournaments to be included on this list. 81.157.60.78 (talk) 14:54, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

So its fine in there even though your own sources disagree ? Do you think the ICFC should be removed ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.107.186 (talk) 14:57, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

My personal opinion is that neither the ICFC or CWC should be in there. But they have both been in there for numerous years, and the general agreement on this page is that they are fine being included. Therefore I am willing to agree with the two other currently active people and historical consensus that it should be included with the other 5. 81.157.60.78 (talk) 15:00, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

If you mean the Fairs Cup then you really are doing somersaults with your definition of a major. On what grounds would you exclude that? That they have been on this article a long time is irrelevant.

Your claimed majority is also spurious. Fifty7 was part of the previous consensus to include all honors and has not contributed to this discussion all day. The other L1265746 had 1 Wikipedia edit to their name [and that was two months ago], before suddenly appearing in this discussion to back you up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.107.186 (talk) 15:13, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

The issue is that this isn't an all honours page, thus should not include all honours, no matter what you seem to think. Please just understand that and don't keep putting it back to including all these worthless trophies. It seems Fifty7 only decided to go with all honours because you kept spamming the page with extra trophies. Just look up the talk page and look at the number of people who are happy with the 6. Also I've no idea who the L1265746 person is, but at least they have an account which is more than me and you have. 81.157.60.78 (talk) 15:23, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

The issue is you and certain others only want to include honors that suit you, even if it is only based on your opinion of what a major is. The "consensus" 3 can't even agree amongst themselves as you just stated you don't think the CWC should be in the article!! What you seem unable to grasp is term major is inherently POV and is the article's fundamental flaw. It's such flimsy ground that you even contradict the sources you post. Do you think the Fairs Cup should be excluded from this page? because myfootballfacts does. It's either a definitive source or not. L1265746 had to come up with a separate excuse to justify including the CWC even tho the source they just posted excluded it. And Having an account doesn't give a user any special prestige. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.171.107.186 (talk) 15:37, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

I just don't see what is wrong with the layout of the page as it has been for numerous years. 86.161.194.223 (talk) 15:54, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

The Treble
Only trophies contributing towards a Treble can be considered major.

These are are the top-tier domestic league competition, domestic cup competitions and continental tournaments; although this depends to some extent on the structure of the football pyramid in a country. Trophy competitions which consist of a single match or a two-leg match (e.g. the FA Community Shield, Supercopa de España, the Recopa Sudamericana, UEFA Super Cup) or FIFA Club World Cup are generally not counted as part of a treble and are thus not included as major honours on this list.

Thus the list should only contain the Premier League, FA Cup, League Cup, Champions League and Europa League. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.251.75 (talk) 18:47, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

This seems like the most fair way to define major to me. It also keeps it major, and not any random trophy across the world. If it was that we may as well add the Peace Cup etc.86.161.199.248 (talk) 19:02, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I consider it an arrogant mistake to remove the championship of the world -- included by consensus since 2009 -- from this list, and one that, if I didn't know better, smacks of an attempt to ensure Liverpool remain at the top of the table. Were it to remain, we'd have reached status quo antebellum regarding this entire edit war, which I think is the proper result. However, the expanded table to include all non-friendly trophies was a valid compromise. This arbitrary standard based on an arbitrary definition -- which trophies are "major enough" to count towards the unofficial distinction of a trebel, nevermind that Barcelona's sextuple includes these trophies you're excluding -- is untenable, and should not be continued. We should either go back to the original setup (my most recent edit), or remain under the 'all non-friendly competition' standard, not pick-and-choose which ones our opinions jive with best. -- Fifty7 (talk) 22:17, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Your comment reeks of a Man U fan scared of Liverpool being above you. I support neither. Neither do I support any of the Sky 4 or any team which finished in the top half of the league last year. Therefore I look at this from a completely neutral standpoint. I am fine leaving it as it is now, as I can see some merit, albeit very little in including the Club World Cup. However there is absolutely no reason to include any other trophy in this trophy list as it is for major trophies only. It was the introduction of the Club World Cup onto the list which created all the issues in the first place and the easiest thing would be to remove it. No one in England considers it to be a major trophy. This article should consider major trophies only. Therefore if people come on again and start debating whether other trophies should be added if the CWC is included, then the CWC should be removed. There were no issues before this was added and it was discovered this magically made Man Utd equal to Liverpool. Stop with the pettiness. 81.157.60.78 (talk) 22:29, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Not even going to dignify the pettiness charge with a response, and am only going to point out the ridiculousness of your contention given that when the world championship was rightfully included in the table for the first time back in 2009, it still left United four short of Liverpool. There is no reason to remove the CWC at all. -- Fifty7 (talk) 22:37, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

At periods during that time it has been removed. It wasn't clear cut to include it initially, and no one thought to include the ICC before Man Utd won the CWC. Therefore it was not considered necessary at all. Also numerous people have stated they don't think it is major or important. The general impression in the UK is that it is not major. That cannot be disputed. No one takes it seriously. However as I said, I am fine leaving it in as long as it doesn't bring about debate on however many more unimportant trophies should be included in this list as it has done before. If it does then CWC should be removed. 81.157.60.78 (talk) 23:13, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Article protected
This article has been protected from editing for three days to try to generate talk page discussion of the disputed content. Please follow the WP:BRD guideline. You may also wish to consider dispute resolution (WP:DR). Mark Arsten (talk) 15:59, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

The argument: Major and Minor Honours
To summarize:
 * 1) Honors are/are not major because I said so. Everyone agrees with me. Go and edit another page.
 * 2) I'm right because I found an article on the net that agrees with me. Ignore the parts that contradict what I am saying.
 * 3) You are arrogant and have an agenda.
 * 4) You are a Man United/Liverpool fanboy.
 * 5) You don't understand what this page is for. Go and edit a page that agrees with you.
 * 6) Stop disagreeing with me. You're vandalizing the page!
 * 7) The article has been this way forever. Stop ruining it!

Furthermore, some of you have no grasp of wikipedia's basic concepts. Namely:
 * 1) That anyone can edit a page
 * 2) Every edit does not need your approval
 * 3) Every page can be changed at any time. Saying the page has been this way for ages therefore it has to stay like that is the stupidest argument ive ever heard. What do we need those railways for? The horse and cart we`ve been using for centuries is working fine.
 * 4) You have to reach consensus with differing opinions instead of crying to admins to change the page back to a version you like.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.152.181.180 (talk) 22:02, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * To start working on a solution, rather than antagonising eachother (hint: that's not productive), maybe it is a good idea to list every honours, and see how people feel about it, so a good compromise can be attained. Let kick this off with me listing all of them, so you can discuss them. Oh, and don't even think of using multiple accounts or IP's to forward your position, that will make you lose the discussion by default. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 07:57, 6 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The Football League (1889 until 1992)
 * Discuss
 * Major Mountain cirque 14:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The Premier League (since 1992)
 * Discuss
 * Major Mountain cirque 14:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The FA Cup (since 1872)
 * Discuss
 * Major Mountain cirque 14:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The League Cup (since 1962)
 * Discuss
 * Major Mountain cirque 14:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The Full Members Cup
 * Discuss
 * Minor - not all teams chose to participate and it was ran in parallel to the FA and League cups, definitely not equivalent to the European Cup which it replaced due to a European ban for English teams Mountain cirque 14:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The English Super Cup
 * Discuss
 * Minor - as the Full Members' Cup above, a one off match to fill the gap created by European ban Mountain cirque 14:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The FA Community Shield
 * Discuss
 * Minor, a one-off match that is considered a pre-season friendly, an article on Man Utd's website from 2013 noted that it was not a major honour, further references for its minor status here (taken from the Community Shield page:   Mountain cirque 14:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The FA Charity Shield
 * Discuss
 * Minor, as above, same competition/cup Mountain cirque 14:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The European Cup
 * Discuss
 * Major Mountain cirque 14:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The Champions League
 * Discuss
 * Major Mountain cirque 14:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The Europa League
 * Discuss
 * Major Mountain cirque 14:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The UEFA Cup
 * Discuss
 * Major Mountain cirque 14:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The Inter-Cities Fairs Cup
 * Discuss
 * Major - precursor to UEFA Cup Mountain cirque 14:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The UEFA Cup Winners' Cup
 * Discuss
 * Major Mountain cirque 14:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The UEFA Intertoto Cup
 * Discuss
 * Minor - winner only qualified for the UEFA Cup, not a 'final' winner as such Mountain cirque 14:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The UEFA Super Cup
 * Discuss
 * Minor - a one-off match Mountain cirque 14:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The FIFA Club World Cup
 * Discuss
 * Major Mountain cirque 14:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Why do you consider the FCWC a major honour but not the IC (the former is basically a continuation of the latter) or the SC? Unsigned IP Edit
 * The World Club Cup is a (small) tournament for the winners of all world confederations, where you have to win against more than just one team to win the competition. The Intercontinental Cup is a pre-cursor to it but it never included other confederations than Europe and South America, it is essentially a super-cup of two continents. In the same way that the European Super Cup is not classed as being equivalent to the Premier League or Champions League my opinion would be that the IC is a minor honour. As noted below, it may be best to just re-title this page to be competitive honours to remove confusion over these definitions which are contentious.  Mountain cirque 13:09, 30 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The Intercontinental Cup
 * Discuss
 * Minor - a one-off match Mountain cirque 14:36, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

There has already been one compromise recently between myself and Fifty7 to count all competitive honors as that is the best way around the highly POV issue of what is a "major".

The version they [81. IP/L1265746 ] want to restore [PL/FA/LC/CL/EL/CWC] is based on no objective criteria that i can see. Just that 'everyone' agrees they are majors and none of the others are. The reasoning to include the CWC and IC but not other similar honors like the Uefa super cup is particularly absurd. One of the web pages that was cited didn't even include the CWC but they decided to count it anyway. Another web page they posted said the Fairs cup shouldnt be there but that was ignored too.

THey will say the page has been this way for x years therefore that is proof that everyone else agrees with it. The comments on this talk page do not bear that out. i see that more as proof that a few determined editors have managed to protect their version of the page. Examples above disagreeing with 'their' version'

'It [Fairs Cup] Should be Taken Out of the Article As it Is Not Recognized By Uefa'

'The Fairs Cup should be removed from the records as UEFA themselves do not consider them to be a UEFA Recognised competition'

'These Cups [Super Cup & Intercontinental Cup] are frequently mentioned by various clubs as major Honours. Why sre they not included here?'

'I don't know if the Intercontinental Cup needed to be included'

'I think that both the Super Cup and the Intercontinental Cup should be included as major honours'

'I think personally that all of the trophies included in that Guardian article should be shown here (League, FA Cup, League Cup, Community Shield, Champions League, Europa League, Super Cup, Cup Winners Cup, Club World Cup and Intercontinental Cup)'

' Nothing you can win by playing just one or two games is a major title so the world club cup should not be considered'

'Nonsense to include the World Club Cup and yet not include the UEFA sanctioned European Super Cup'

'You could even argue that the UK's Super Cup in 1986 was a more major honour at the time. '

'we either have the generally perceived major honours (League, FA Cup, League Cup, Champions League, UEFA Cup), or we have all FIFA/UEFA sanctioned trophies. Its one or the other, we cant cherry pick bits from either'

'the CWC really isn't a major trophy at all'

'My personal opinion is that neither the ICFC or CWC should be in there'


 * Like I said, arguing is not going to get you anywhere. Start with a common base everyone agrees on and work from there. See what you can work out. Forget other peoples wrongs, and start doing it right. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 22:32, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

This made me laugh so much. Every quote that says the world super cup and charity shield shouldnt be counted but the eufa super cup should! All liverpool fans!! Why does ONE game in the eufa supercup make it a major, but up to 4 in the world super cup means it isnt? Any major that is just one game between 2 entrants shouldnt be counted, anything else should.31.53.253.141 (talk) 14:31, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * If anything, I find this to be an argument to change the article's title to "...by competitive honours won," than to take anything out. - Clematis1378 (talk) 22:07, 29 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I've been leaning towards that myself, my main issue is the fact that the page title is misleading as well as the first few paragraphs which contradict the fact that minor trophies are listed in the tables below. If we can get some consensus on renaming the page that would be great, please add comments here to support or disagree. Mountain cirque 09:25, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

weighing of cups
been suggested, this is my take on the relevant merits of each cup to an English team.

League 10 points, most important by far, by by by far. Ask any team if they want to win the league or EC, every team would say the league, especially lfc, so they cant argue that the EC is more important. Any true LFC fan come on here and say they would pick the EC over the league please post? I think this should be worth 20 points at least?

FA cup 5 points, not that important to top teams but still hard to win. Maybe 7 points?

League cup 3 points, top teams play their reserves till the 1/4 finals, thats how important it is. Maybe 2 points?

Charity shield 1 point, 2 teams in 1 game, shouldn't be worth anything.

European cup 12 points. Very important, but easier to win than the league, plus I believe the wins were it was simply a knock-out were much easier to win so should be worth 6 points at most. And you have to finish in top 4 to enter so is it worth that much?

Europa league cup 5 points, same as FA cup. Maybe 7 points?

Super cup 1 point, same as charity shield.

World Club champions 4 points, contested by top teams, quite a few games, taken seriously, maybe should be worth 6-8 points?

Seems fair to me, means Man u are on 333 points and Lfc are on 322 points for example. Aresenal are still third on 208 points, EFC move up on 129 points and CFC are now on 119 points in 5th. Much better reading, as EFC have won 9 leagues to Chelseas 4. If lfc win the league this season they go 1 point behind MUFC for example. But if mufc win the league cup and EC they would still be top easily. Im a tranmere fan by the way, hate mufc, but hate lfc more, so no biased from me.

PS take away the charity shield and super cup, only 2 teams play in them and Mufc are on 312 and lfc are on 304, so mufc are still top? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.53.253.141 (talk) 14:06, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

why is this one here???
FM/ESC not a major honour at all, should be removed?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.53.253.141 (talk) 14:52, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

corrected
someone changed man united to Chelsea and changed trophies won etc to wrong ones, so reverted.Dave006 (talk) 16:08, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Where is Man United?
I'm by no means a Man United fan, but where is Man United in the list?

Eelinn (talk) 03:06, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Suggestion on honours
Having read through the above debates I would suggest marking any games that were only entered by two teams such as the Charity/Community Shield, European Super Cup or Intercontinental Cup or those in which the tournament acts as a feeder to another tournament such as the Intertoto Cup as minor honours. This could be done easily in the lead section where the abbreviations are noted.

Crucially, I am not advocating that we remove any information from the table, what I would suggest is adding a new column titled 'Major Honours' which counts all leagues, European Cups, World Club Cups, National Cups but does not count the minor honours, the 'Total' column would remain however for interest. Please let me know your thoughts on this suggestions, it seems like a good compromise. It really doesn't make sense that teams should be propelled to the top of this table based on Charity/Community Shield wins, it is very misleading in an article titled 'major honours'. Comments please? Mountain cirque 16:42, 27 May 2014 (UTC)