Talk:List of fraternities and sororities in the Philippines/Archive 1

Image copyright problem with Image:Frat logo.jpg
The image Image:Frat logo.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
 * That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:


 * File:BMS seal.JPG
 * File:XIANSS39159537812l.jpg
 * File:Triskelion Seal.jpg
 * File:TGPseal.png
 * File:Alpha Sigma Phi Crest.png
 * File:ATO Coat of arms.jpg
 * File:AClogoforweb.png
 * Image:NKP Logo.png
 * Image:NKB logo.png
 * Image:MuSeal.jpg

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --09:48, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Images
Per WP:NFCC, Fair Use images are only allowed in articles where they "significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and [their] omission would be detrimental to that understanding." In general, use of fair use images in lists is interpreted as not meeting this criteria. Specifically, in this list, the general lack of logos implies to me that those few copyright images are not adding significantly.

I worry that many of the remaining images have incorrect licenses, and will try to find time soon to research further, so that we can live up to our goal of providing a 'free' encyclopedia.

When I removed the above fair use images, I also removed a couple of image red links - links to images that have been deleted or never existed. There is no good reason to include these red links in the article. ★ Bigr   Tex  14:19, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * That makes sense. Although some images are properly referenced such as the one for Alpha Phi Omega, I'm not sure any image other than *possibly* a map of the Philippines with schools with Fraternities and Sororities highlighted (which strikes me as a humongous project) is appropriate.Naraht (talk) 03:22, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Semi-protection
Because of all of the edit-warring from anonymous accounts, I have semi-protected this page for 72 hours. Most of the anons are still welcome to participate in discussion (I did block two of them). As for actual edits to the list page though, these can only be done by registered accounts for a few days. --Elonka 00:21, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There seems to be continued warring by IP editors on this page. I note that the Talk page at present contains no participation by IPs at all. On that basis, I think a longer semi-protection could be justified. EdJohnston (talk) 03:11, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've blocked the most recent anon for 72 hours. If another anon comes in and picks up where that one left off, then I agree that another semi-protection would be reasonable. --Elonka 03:52, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Most recent changes as of this point are two by someone updating the athetas entry. This does not appear to be vandalism since the new web page (and fix of mispelling) are improvements. Now this group counts itself as being founded less than 3 months ago, which leads to the issue of how to determine which groups are here, but that is another section...Naraht (talk) 15:41, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Linkfarm
Giving the article only a glance, it appears all the links in the "Greek Letters/ Nickname" and "Internat. Affil.?" columns should be removed per WP:NOTLINK, as well as WP:EL and WP:SPAM. --Ronz (talk) 21:04, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * At this point, I think that *one* link may be appropriate for the National Organization if it doesn't have a wikipedia page. I'm working on other issues with the article right now. It requires a *lot* of fixing.Naraht (talk) 21:27, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * It's been over a month now. Can we take some time to resolve this? --Ronz (talk) 18:48, 29 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, the "attempt to document" phase is over, the question is what's next, the link farm issue, or the inclusion criteria? I have a few questions on the link farm issue. Given the structure of the page, what exterior links *outside* the references would be appropriate? Given the unsettled nature of some of the pages that have been created (See the Alpha-Sigma Omega Phi page created *today*), is it acceptible to take exterior links for groups and put them in the angle!--www.foobar.org--close angle to keep them accessible if the newly created page is AfD'ed. Is the "quality" of the link a judgement criteria, say vs. , and is whether it has its own domain a factor or the quality of what is on the page. (Yes, I'm using Alpha Phi Omega as an example, which will probably go down to no exterior links since it has a wikipage of its own, assume a group without a wikipage).


 * It just seems a little odd to say that the entry for Alpha Beta Gamma can't link to their web page, but that it is entirely appropriate to have a link to their web page in the reference that shows what they are.


 * See the inclusion criteria section for my proposal there...Naraht (talk) 19:28, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Inclusion criteria is definitely more important. --Ronz (talk) 01:33, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * OK, see my response there...Naraht (talk) 01:50, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Splitting out Speciality groups?
I'd like to hear opinions on splitting out the Law and possibly the Engineering organizations into their own tables. I'm in favor of it.Naraht (talk) 16:33, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Linkfarm still
It's been well over a year since I pointed out some of the problems with this article. I suggest moving the article off of Wikipedia. Are there any independent, reliable sources at all? Any notable entries in the list? Any sources that suggest this is a notable topic? --Ronz (talk) 04:07, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * To deal with the two issues that came up before,


 * I think that using the greekwatch site that is referenced in "see also" as a limit as to what's listed is probably the *only* choice. I did a google search for "Alpha Phi Omega", "Tau Gamma Phi" and "Alpha Kappa Rho" (all of which have more than 100 chapters and *extensive* overseas alumni associations. Nothing came up as a useful list other than that. (and I know that guy started his site from the list here on wikipedia (though he has improved it).


 * Given that he has links for most of the fraternities (again with a lot of overlap to what is here), I think that getting rid of most of the links that aren't references (and moving some of the links in as references) may work.


 * As for general references, what is the general feeling on the need for third party references on things like the location that the fraternity started or the date that it started. While Baird's can help for the USA fraternities, there *really* isn't anything like that in the Philippines.


 * Frankly, the Fraternity system in the Philippines is both more significant in collegiate life (and alumni connections) than in the USA and hideously more disorganized at the National Level. There are no Councils such as the IFC, NPC or NPHC.Naraht (talk) 16:38, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the detailed reply. That sounds like a good approach. You've done a great job on this article and I respect your judgment on how to proceed.
 * When I noticed XLinkBot reverting a recent edit, I thought it important to have a recent discussion here in case someone checks the bot's activity. --Ronz (talk) 17:22, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank You. I do have some specific questions that I'm interested in your opinion on.


 * 1) Do you have any columns that you think should be dropped or redefined?
 * 2) What do you think of the split off of the medical/legal/engineering groups?
 * 3) Is it "cheating" to move a website for a group from being the link for the group to being a reference link? (I don't know if the "linkfarm" concept applies to references.
 * 4) Are there any domains which should be completely dropped? The following are the 20 most common domains for links on the page in order by number of times they occur. (This took about 15 minutes fooling around with awk/sed)
 * 29 friendster.com
 * 18 ning.com
 * 14 tripod.com
 * 13 yahoo.com
 * 11 freewebs.com
 * 9 blogspot.com
 * 8 webs.com
 * 7 multiply.com
 * 6 co.nr
 * 5 thomasiantriskelion.org
 * 5 gov.ph
 * 5 edu.ph
 * 4 wikipilipinas.org
 * 4 wetpaint.com
 * 4 geocities.com
 * 4 bravehost.com
 * 4 betans.com
 * 3 page.tl
 * 3 org.ph
 * 3 epsilonchi.org
 * Any other ideas?Naraht (talk) 18:26, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Referring to the numbered questions above:
 * 1 - The columns seem fine. It might be helpful to ask for help at WP:EAR to get others' perspectives.
 * 2 - Splitting the law/engineering/etc groups seems helpful. WP:EAR?
 * 3 - Yes, "cheating" is a good word. It's WP:REFSPAM if the link is not actually being used as a reference to verify information in the article.  Even if it does verify information, WP:SELFPUB applies.  Even then, WP:PSTS states, "do not base articles entirely on primary sources."
 * 4 - Specific domains are rarely a problem, if WP:EL, WP:V, WP:RS, WP:SELFPUB, and WP:PSTS are followed. --Ronz (talk) 16:55, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

monalisa is now a international —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.6.181.163 (talk) 11:52, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

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Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Fraternities and sororities which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 13:34, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Merge of columns
Do you have a reason for the column merges?Naraht (talk) 18:23, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

UP Scintilla Juris
its a law fraternity at the university of the philippines in diliman. it should be transferred along with sigmarho etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redberger (talk • contribs) 12:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Issues introduced.
I created the article and have largely maintained this for *years*. The changes have introduced *several* issues with the article *including*
 * 1) Alpha Phi Omega of the Philippines has its own article, Alpha Phi Omega (Philippines). (I'm a brother of Alpha Phi Omega of the USA and the Philippines group is a separate National Organization, the two organizations are *not* set up the same way. (Think Boy Scouts of America vs. the Scouting organizations in the Philippines)
 * 2) Alpha Phi Omega of the Philippines is *not* a co-ed fraternity, it is a linked Fraternity and Sorority of the same name, the Men are brothers of a Fraternity chapter on campus and the Women are sisters of the Sorority chapter on campus. (a campus may have both or one without the other.
 * 3) Alpha Phi Omega of the Philippines has a separate founding date, that's why both were in the original article.
 * 4) The registration being with the SEC is the same for all that are linked and the information on which are Registered and which are reserved and (for the most part) this information is *not* in the articles. It would be much better to drop the field than to keep it the way that this is.
 * 5) Traditional Fraternity in this case is a *complete* misnomer, none of them are housed in the American manner.
 * 6) Affiliation. There are *zero* umbrella organizations for Fraternities and Sororities in the Philippines. The column should be dropped as well as all of the ones for the FOC since the article on Tau Mu Epsilon is gone and the article about Sigma Sigma is for a *completely* different group.
 * 7) A more general comment on the fraternities included. On Previous discussion, the article was previously limited to *only* those groups which had met notability standards. There are literally Hundreds of Fraternities and Sororities in the Philippines, and without that, this article became *very* *very* unwieldy.
 * 8) I'm not sure why you combined the different types of Professional Organizations. The situation is more like Professional fraternities and sororities than Professional Fraternity Association.

Frankly at this point, I'd rather *completely* revert this and start over, I'd like to work with you on this though.Naraht (talk) 04:47, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

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UP Alpha Sigma
Please fix UP Alpha Sigma entry. i coulndt make the link work. here't the link: http://www.upalphasigma.org —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redberger (talk • contribs) 13:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Alpha Delta Sigma
why is there double entry for ADS? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redberger (talk • contribs) 05:06, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Initial Paragraph sources
I think What is the legacy of Greek-letter societies? is probably a reasonable source for the opening paragraph. While focusing somewhat on the University of the Philippines, it appears to be worth considering.Naraht (talk) 21:15, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

U.P. Sigma Alpha Nu Sorority
The questions/ comments on [[List of fraternities and sororities in the Philippines]==


 * 1) Are there any articles and reliable sources on the fraternities or the history of fraternities in the Philippines? Several Wikipedia articles have been deleted because they were totally unsourced and unreferenced. (They can be restored to your userspace if you want to look into resoring them)
 * 2) I think it's an interesting and useful table.
 * 3) The "references" are really external links, and should probably be retitled. I haven't looked at all of them, but one seemed to link to Friendster? I think some sources for the article to establish the subject of fraternities as notable would be good. Articles, books, something must have been written about these organizations and their histories.
 * 4)I think a sentence or two introducing the list would be helpful. Does the list include all fraternities and sororities in the Philippines or only sizable and well established ones? When was the first fraternity? Are they the same or different than fraternities and sororities in the west? (this content should be sourced too...) If you don't want to cover these issues extensively, wikilinking to an article Fraternities and Sororities in the Philippines? or an existing article that covers these subjects would be useful. There are lots of links in the article to external websites, but what about other articles and topics related to the list?

Those are my thoughts. Let me know if you have any additional questions. I think it's a great looking article so far. I've seen too many things get deleted though, so make sure you add some sources! ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

1) There is no equivalent to Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities for the Philippines and no National umbrella organizations like the NIC, NPC or NPHC (The Greeks in Puerto Rico are more organized as a group than those in the Philippines.) I don't think there are many good books about the Greeks in the Philippines (I own a good number of the ones about the USA including Several editions of Baird's and some of Hank Nuwer's books). Most of these groups are self referenced for their Wikipedia pages, though the groups that have their own domains that look good tend not to get challenged as much as others.

2) Thank you. It really wasn't before. I count what I'm doing as salvaging it. I'm the original creator of it when I took the large number of Filipino ones that had been added to the List of Fraternities and Sororities and created a page of their own for them, somewhat to cut down on the good faith edits but uncaring edits there. Take a look at the state of the page as of a month ago.

3) Right now, this is Step one, I'm just trying to find *any* reference for most of them. I got my knuckles rapped for deleting what had been edited by non-registered users without having a reason other than personal feelings, so I'm doing this to at least get a feeling for what they have out on the net. A good number only show up on alumni.net, yahoo groups, friendster or youtube. While using where they show up to prove notability sucks, I'm not sure there is anything else that makes sense (Number of chapters certainly doesn't since one of the best known and oldest only exists on the main campus of the University of the Philippines and one other UP campus). After I get done with that, I can move on to step two which is proposing a system and which ones should get deleted based on that. I'll post it to the Talk page and after *no one* comments for two weeks, I'll go ahead and do it. (Unfortunately)

4) I'll try to add an intro paragraph, but almost nothing I could add there are things that I can reference. :( And with that little there, I don't think there is enough for a separate article, but I'd love for someone to know enough to create it.

Do you want to move this conversation to the talk page for the article?Naraht (talk) 14:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You're welcome to copy my comments over to the article talk page. It's unfortunate there aren't better sources because many editors here don't seem to think frats and sororities are notable. Given their history I think they are a good subject to include in the encyclopedia. Let me know if I can be of any help. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

phanu.com UP SIGMA ALPHA NU SORORITY] is an organization of ladies from the University of the Philippines with the primary cause of serving the Filipino people. It upholds the principles of Truth, Reason and Justice. Promoting the goals of Social Awareness and Nationalism, Academic Excellence, Leadership and the Uplift of Women.

July 16 1980, Sigma Alpha Nu was established by the 10 charter members in UP Diliman. The list of achievers, student leaders and movers from the Diliman campus flourished. In addressing the sorority's need to continuously harness potentials, the establishment of it's first chapter signified its further growth.

With an initial batch of 9 ladies, UP Sigma Alpha Nu Manila was formed in July 10,1988. Active participation in the student council catapulted the name of Sigma Alpha Nu in a short span of time.

The year 1993 proved to be another milestone. The UP Los Banos batch was welcomed into the fold. The youngest chapter has been cited as the Best organization of the said campus more than once. The roster of sisters has produced many student and social leaders, achievers in their respective fields, that has given laurels to the sorority's name over the years proving that excellence is truly a mark of a Nuan

Inclusion criteria
In general, it's best to only include entries that already have their own articles, though we're free to come up with an alternative inclusion criteria per WP:LIST. --Ronz (talk) 21:07, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Frankly, I've been using a fairly loose criteria, frankly to keep these from ending up on the US/Canada list of Fraternities. I *wish* there was some sort of national fraternity council like the IFC, but there isn't. And unfortunately limiting this to only multi-school fraternities eliminates Upsilon Sigma Phi which is one of the most prestigious although it only exists at University of the Philippines, Diliman which is the main campus of the National University.Naraht (talk) 21:29, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Another good alternative is to find some reliable sources, listing fraternities and sororities in the Philippines, that we can use to justify inclusion of those without their own articles. --Ronz (talk) 23:32, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * About the only place I've seen with a list was a link that I actually deleted earlier today and I don't think of that as anything close to a reliable source since all of the things that say that XYZ of the Philippines is not related to XYZ in the USA appear to be directly from this page.Naraht (talk) 00:21, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * My suggestion then would be to follow recommendation here and about the external links. Both are being edit-warred over.  Then editors could concentrate on finding sources to verify the information that they'd like to add, with fewer distractions hopefully. --Ronz (talk) 17:43, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Which specific recommendation here? I'll try to trim things down so that each group has one external link or less. I'm not sure that most of the editors to this article care about the concept of references...Naraht (talk) 01:31, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Inclusion criteria for discussion
I propose a modified version of what would allow a United States/Canada Social Fraternity to join the North-American Interfraternity Conference. Five chapters of ten people each having three chapters which have been part of the Fraternity for at least five years *or* has existed for at least 30 years. For the Engineering, Medical and Legal fraternities, they almost all only exist on one campus, so I propose having existed for 20 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naraht (talk • contribs) 19:30, 29 December 2008
 * Who determines which frats/sororities meet such criteria? --Ronz (talk) 01:37, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure I understand the question, once there are objective criteria, the references should determine if they do or not.Naraht (talk) 01:48, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok - So we expect that editors will be able to find references. --Ronz (talk) 01:55, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And any references that are good enough to actually speak to whether or not the group is large enough have to be as good or better than anything I've found. BTW, do you have an opinion on the actual proposal? Naraht (talk) 04:27, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions/ questions/ comments on List of fraternities and sororities in the Philippines

 * 1) Are there any articles and reliable sources on the fraternities or the history of fraternities in the Philippines? Several Wikipedia articles have been deleted because they were totally unsourced and unreferenced. (They can be restored to your userspace if you want to look into resoring them)
 * 2) I think it's an interesting and useful table.
 * 3) The "references" are really external links, and should probably be retitled. I haven't looked at all of them, but one seemed to link to Friendster? I think some sources for the article to establish the subject of fraternities as notable would be good. Articles, books, something must have been written about these organizations and their histories.
 * 4)I think a sentence or two introducing the list would be helpful. Does the list include all fraternities and sororities in the Philippines or only sizable and well established ones? When was the first fraternity? Are they the same or different than fraternities and sororities in the west? (this content should be sourced too...) If you don't want to cover these issues extensively, wikilinking to an article Fraternities and Sororities in the Philippines? or an existing article that covers these subjects would be useful. There are lots of links in the article to external websites, but what about other articles and topics related to the list?

Those are my thoughts. Let me know if you have any additional questions. I think it's a great looking article so far. I've seen too many things get deleted though, so make sure you add some sources! ChildofMidnight (talk) 05:23, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

1) There is no equivalent to Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities for the Philippines and no National umbrella organizations like the NIC, NPC or NPHC (The Greeks in Puerto Rico are more organized as a group than those in the Philippines.) I don't think there are many good books about the Greeks in the Philippines (I own a good number of the ones about the USA including Several editions of Baird's and some of Hank Nuwer's books). Most of these groups are self referenced for their Wikipedia pages, though the groups that have their own domains that look good tend not to get challenged as much as others.

2) Thank you. It really wasn't before. I count what I'm doing as salvaging it. I'm the original creator of it when I took the large number of Filipino ones that had been added to the List of Fraternities and Sororities and created a page of their own for them, somewhat to cut down on the good faith edits but uncaring edits there. Take a look at the state of the page as of a month ago.

3) Right now, this is Step one, I'm just trying to find *any* reference for most of them. I got my knuckles rapped for deleting what had been edited by non-registered users without having a reason other than personal feelings, so I'm doing this to at least get a feeling for what they have out on the net. A good number only show up on alumni.net, yahoo groups, friendster or youtube. While using where they show up to prove notability sucks, I'm not sure there is anything else that makes sense (Number of chapters certainly doesn't since one of the best known and oldest only exists on the main campus of the University of the Philippines and one other UP campus). After I get done with that, I can move on to step two which is proposing a system and which ones should get deleted based on that. I'll post it to the Talk page and after *no one* comments for two weeks, I'll go ahead and do it. (Unfortunately)

4) I'll try to add an intro paragraph, but almost nothing I could add there are things that I can reference. :( And with that little there, I don't think there is enough for a separate article, but I'd love for someone to know enough to create it.

Do you want to move this conversation to the talk page for the article?Naraht (talk) 14:01, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * You're welcome to copy my comments over to the article talk page. It's unfortunate there aren't better sources because many editors here don't seem to think frats and sororities are notable. Given their history I think they are a good subject to include in the encyclopedia. Let me know if I can be of any help. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:00, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

upsilon sigma rho
please add upsilon sigma rho in the fraternities under medicine.. it is a fraternity in manila central university college of medicine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.60.173.166 (talk) 13:01, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for asking, I'll try to make the change soon. Is there any reason *not* to use http://upsilonsigmarho.com/ as both the link for the fraternity and for information such as founding?Naraht (talk) 14:40, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

beta gamma phi
add. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.126.127.170 (talk) 11:50, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Referenced information needed.Naraht (talk) 11:56, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Zeta Epsilon - Alpha Lambda
The http://zeal1926.webs.com/ is one of the oldest Fraternity Sorority in the Philippines founded on 1931. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.127.21.210 (talk) 09:11, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

add. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.126.127.170 (talk) 11:50, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Referenced information needed.Naraht (talk) 11:56, 23 February 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.127.21.210 (talk)

Cleanup
Sorry, but Wikipedia is not a directory for these kinds of things. If the frat or sorority you want to list doesn't have an article, write the article, and if it is not notable enough for an article, it shouldn't be listed. Drmies (talk) 00:20, 11 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Just last night, a new editor, by the name of Garner P Cobrado, but at this writing without a valid page, had DELETED Phi Beta Rho from this list of Philippines fraternities, in an attempt to add another group with the name of "Phi Alpha Epsilon."  It appears his group, claimed to be from Central Luzon University, does NOT have its own Wikipedia page, and might not be Notable.  There is already another Phi Alpha Epsilon, but it is a pre-existing professional fraternity in the US. Multiple usages of a similar Greek letter name happen; the answer is to create a new page, with a unique name, and possibly a Disambiguation note.


 * George, if you are reading this, you need to follow Drmies advice (above) and first create a NEW article (page) for your group. Do NOT attempt to hijack or delete the existing Phi Alpha Epsilon.  Instead, maybe use the name "Phi Alpha Epsilon (Luzon)" or something like that for a new page. THEN you might consider adding and linking to it here among the Philippines' other legitimate fraternities.  Do NOT erase another group to add yours.


 * Meanwhile, I am rolling back George's three edits, to restore Phi Beta Rho. Jax MN (talk) 17:42, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Alpha Pi Chi additions.
For List of fraternities and sororities in the Philippines, there was a time when there were over one hundred different groups, most with no indication of notability other than that they had a facebook page. Lists should include notable groups, for which the decision was made that it would be restricted to those groups with pages, so Alpha Pi Chi was removed.Naraht (talk) 19:56, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Issues introduced.
I created the article and have largely maintained this for *years*. The changes have introduced *several* issues with the article *including*
 * 1) Alpha Phi Omega of the Philippines has its own article, Alpha Phi Omega (Philippines). (I'm a brother of Alpha Phi Omega of the USA and the Philippines group is a separate National Organization, the two organizations are *not* set up the same way. (Think Boy Scouts of America vs. the Scouting organizations in the Philippines)
 * 2) Alpha Phi Omega of the Philippines is *not* a co-ed fraternity, it is a linked Fraternity and Sorority of the same name, the Men are brothers of a Fraternity chapter on campus and the Women are sisters of the Sorority chapter on campus. (a campus may have both or one without the other.
 * 3) Alpha Phi Omega of the Philippines has a separate founding date, that's why both were in the original article.
 * 4) The registration being with the SEC is the same for all that are linked and the information on which are Registered and which are reserved and (for the most part) this information is *not* in the articles. It would be much better to drop the field than to keep it the way that this is.
 * 5) Traditional Fraternity in this case is a *complete* misnomer, none of them are housed in the American manner.
 * 6) Affiliation. There are *zero* umbrella organizations for Fraternities and Sororities in the Philippines. The column should be dropped as well as all of the ones for the FOC since the article on Tau Mu Epsilon is gone and the article about Sigma Sigma is for a *completely* different group.
 * 7) A more general comment on the fraternities included. On Previous discussion, the article was previously limited to *only* those groups which had met notability standards. There are literally Hundreds of Fraternities and Sororities in the Philippines, and without that, this article became *very* *very* unwieldy.
 * 8) I'm not sure why you combined the different types of Professional Organizations. The situation is more like Professional fraternities and sororities than Professional Fraternity Association.

Frankly at this point, I'd rather *completely* revert this and start over, I'd like to work with you on this though.Naraht (talk) 04:47, 1 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Sorry there are issues. I saw many edits and editors from December alone and did not realize this was one of your primary projects. Although my work was flawed, it is quicker to keep the additional content and make the changes you requested than to revert. Also, I was able to fix the weirdness that was going with one table (which may have been a temporary glitch from Wikipedia as I have seen this same problem in other articles).
 * 1) Fixed. My confusion and the source for coed stemmed from the main APO article which claims the Philippine chapters. Thanks so much for calling to to my attention!
 * 2) Fixed.
 * 3) APO was the only group in the entire article that had two founding dates. I did not delete the second date, but moved it to an efn which removed the need for an key/explanation and shortened the cell. I have now flipped that content, so APO has the Philippine date and location, with the U.S. APO in the efn. The makes even more sense given your explanation that the two operate somewhat differently.
 * 4) The only entries in this column were R (Registered) with the exception of two N (not registered). There were no Vs for reserved. As a result, I found no reason for a system that required a key to understand and instructions for making new entries. It is more straight forward to indicate those that are registered. I did make the decision to cut the SEC number to make room in the table because only a few had the SEC registration numbers. I checked and found the number was included in the related articles before deleting that content from this article. (Gamma Kappa Phi does not have an article, so I retained the SEC number in a efn). I  will be glad to re-recheck for the SEC number in the main articles if you think I missed any. If you really want to cut this column, there are a couple that don't include SEC in the main article which, so we should probably to fix that before deleting.
 * 5) I was using traditional instead of social as that is what I have seen in other lists. Because many campuses and chapters of "traditional" groups no longer have an associated housing component, I do not tend to think of that as being a requirement. However, I do want to consistent in my use of terminology with you and others. I have replaced traditional with social throughout this table. Hope that makes better sense with your knowledge of these groups.
 * 6) Yeah, the preexisting affiliation column mostly was unhelpful with entries like alumni association, worldwide chapters, and even just the word international. When I removed those, there was not much data left in the column. Fraternity Officer's Council (FRATOFCO) was previously listed with the Tau Mu Epsilon entry--I moved it from campus partner to affiliation because it has operated as an alliance of 3 fraternities since 1965. The other two members of FRATOFCO (Sigma Sigma and Kappa Kappa) were referenced on the Tau Mu Epsilon website, so I added them along with the source. (Had not meant to keep the Sigma Sigma link; I knew it was not correct) I debated whether to just include the two others as a efn, but then discovered that Tau Mu Epsilon's link circled back to this article. So all three were older organizations and lacked a Wikipedia article. I agree they are not essential; I added the other two FRATOFCO members for consistency. Since your preference is for all three to be removed, that is what I have done, along with the affiliation column.
 * 7) Gamma Kappa Phi and Tau Mu Epsilon pre-dated me. I did add the two additional FRATOFCO members as discussed above; those and Tau Mu Epsilon are now removed. Feel free to remove Gamma Kappa Phi if it is not appropriate; I did not have luck looking for a source to back its notability. The only other one I added was SCINTILLA JURIS (which was a talk page suggestion, now in archives). Although it does not have a Wikipedia article, I found five or six articles about the group, including Yahoo news and the Philippine News Agency (federal government) meaning that it probably meets the standard for notability. I can either add more sources to document notability or we can remove it. I do not plan or writing its article.
 * 8) Main reason is that I am trying to provide consistency between these fraternal list articles. Someone (JAX?) had previously created a combined list on List of Jewish fraternities and sororities, introducing the Focus column. Fraternities and sororities in Canada also has merged professionals into one list; although it separates sororities and fraternities. Of course, there is also our joint effort to merge active and inactive tables; it just seems like combining is the general direction, unless a list/table is really long. On a practical note, these were three short tables, with one not meeting the general rule of three items needed for bullets or a list (sorry, high school English teacher drilled that one into me). When merged, the table is still reasonably short and can be sorted by Focus with a click. I don't have an opinion as to which way is better but was following the example of a article with a fully updated table. It will take me a couple of minutes to split if need be. Rublamb (talk) 07:45, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Discussion of Page inclusion criteria.
Please post here if you are interested in discussion of determining a set of criteria governing which organizations should exist on this page.Naraht (talk) 15:40, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
 * If we can't find sources, then I think we need to reconsider having the article at all. --Ronz (talk) 17:14, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The quality of the sources is also a question... (and I've started finding them) For those groups which actually have a Wikipedia page like Alpha Phi Omega and Tau Gamma Phi, do we need a reference source on this page?Naraht (talk) 17:07, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * If the group already has an article, then a reference usually isn't needed provided the information is available in that article. --Ronz (talk) 18:58, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And if the basics such and where and when it was created aren't in the article, then it will probably get rapidly deleted. The tricky/ugly thing to reference is going to be the "XYZ Fraternity and Sorority in the Philippines has no relation to XYZ Honor Society in the US". Sometimes there is something to reference like Sigma Nu and Phi Beta Kappa where the US groups are annoyed or worse. However most seem to be sort of "Both groups started 20 or more years ago and there are only a limited number of combinations of three greek letters".

National/International
Most of the Multi-campus Fraternities and Sororities in the Philippines have groups formed of alumni in a given area including groups of alumni outside the Philippines.. Given the specifications at the top of the article, unless those groups can intiate new brothers/sisters, then the overall group is National rather than International.Naraht (talk) 13:16, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Phi Omega Sigma is indeed an international frat./sor. because some of the alumni association who migrated or work outside the country organized chapters outside RP.TrueLicense909 talk 23:22, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

And those chapters can initiate new brothers?Naraht (talk) 16:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, positive!! they can initiate new brothers (or sisters) TrueLicense909 (talk) 21:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

The Alpha Phi Omega National in the Republic of the Philippines has chapters that can make new brothers only in RP. The Alumni groups outside the RP can not. The two Nationals (RP & USA) are joined in an international council, but membership does not move between the two Nationals. Naraht (talk) 20:25, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Untitled
Pulling information from http://www.filipinolinks.com/Education/Fraternities_and_Sororities/Philippines/