Talk:List of general authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/Archive 3

Changes in General Church Leadership, October 2014.
I know I'm about 5 months early in posting this, but I tried to post information on changes in general church leadership for October into individual's pages, but was told that would be a violation of Wikipedia policy. So I am posting it here.

First Quorum of the Seventy: I anticipate that, given their ages, the fact that they spoke in the most recent general conference, and the fact that they are both 70 this year, Carlos H. Amado and William R. Walker will be released and granted emeritus status. You will notice that two topics above this one is the area leadership assignments for this year, and that Amado will complete his assignment as President of the Central America Area on August 1. I also don't find it coincidental that Walker, currently assigned as Executive Director of the Temple Department, wasn't in attendance at the most recent temple dedication. The Temple Department was instead represented by Kent F. Richards, currently an Assistant Executive Director. I feel confident there will be a change in the Executive Directorship of the Department anytime now. So that's my prediction for the First Quorum.

Second Quorum of the Seventy: No change. I don't believe we will see anyone currently serving in the Second Quorum of the Seventy released. The most likely candidate is Koichi Aoyagi, who will be 70 in March 2015. But he's currently serving in an Area Presidency, and will be doing so until at least August 1, 2015. We have many unassigned brethren in the Second Quorum. But, with the exception of possibly Wilford W. Andersen, none of them have served all that long to be considered for release. Andersen might be released, but he's only 64. He's much more likely to be called to the First Quorum of the Seventy next April.

Area seventies: releases and sustainings. I can't even begin to guess how many changes we might see among this group. Sometimes there are no changes. Sometimes there are only a few. And it seems like they do their major changes in April, when Dieter F. Uchtdorf conducts the sustaining. So it's difficult to tell if there will be any change and if so, how many changes there might be.

So, that's what I predict will happen in October, such as it is. I've already been told by some that they believe my predictions will be accurate. What do you think? --Jgstokes (talk) 00:53, 9 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Only about 2 1/2 weeks until we find out just how accurate these predictions are! I'm reasonably certain that the First Quorum changes I proposed above will take place because both Amado and Walker have been relieved of their assignments and their successors have been serving for some time now. As to the area seventies changes, not too sure about that. If my guess is right, President Henry B. Eyring will direct the sustaining of church officers this conference, and when he does it, few if any changes are made in area seventy assignments. The First Presidency seems to hold those types of changes in reserve for when President Dieter F. Uchtdorf leads out in the sustaining, since, as a person with an accent, he can pronounce the more difficult names with minimal difficulty. It'll be interesting to see what happens. --Jgstokes (talk) 07:26, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't think there is any advantage that comes from somebody with a German accent trying to pronounce names of those who come from Latin America or Asia. We certainly know that church leaders wouldn't have necessary/regular changes hinge on who is conducting the business of a conference.  With that being said, there has been somewhat of a general pattern used in recent years.  This is to call new general authorities in April and make the majority of changes in area seventy assignments then as well.  Releases and designation of emeritus general authorities, with any additional changes in area seventies then being done in October.  This provides for some training and overlap as new assignments come in and others are released or no longer active in that role. ChristensenMJ (talk) 16:03, 15 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Honestly, I don't see any benefit to Wikipedia by posting these "predictions" to this or any other WP talk page. There are probably Mormon discussion boards out there on the Internet where such speculation is rife and enjoyed, but it's pointless here and does nothing to improve the encyclopedia. Good Ol’factory (talk) 05:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Of course, you are entitled to your own opinion. I hope you'll forgive me if I disagree. I believe potential changes to Church leadership is a very relevant discussion for Wikipedia. The fact that many of my previous "predictions" have proven to be correct tells me that there is relevancy in recognizing patterns of changes in church leadership. I agree it does little to improve the encyclopedia itself, but my predictions have resulted this time in engaging discussions about how Wikipedia policy is understood and applied to them. I feel I have grown in my understanding of Wikipedia policy as I have discussed the relevant issues with these predictions with my fellow editors. I have posted such predictions here nearly every general conference for the last two or three years, and no one has had a problem with it in the past. It's mainly just for informational purposes anyways. --Jgstokes (talk) 05:56, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

"It's mainly just for informational purposes anyways." Well yes--and that's kind of my point. The purpose of talk pages for articles is not to provide more information about the topic. It's to discuss improvements to the article, to discuss concerns about the content, and so forth. I don't see how making speculations about future events helps the article, even if such speculations end up happening. Maybe your own user talk page would be a better place for such speculations, since you acknowledge it's not helping the encyclopedia itself but is more of a personal help to you as an editor. Good Ol’factory (talk) 06:03, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Then, if I am in violation of Wikipedia policy (by misusing a talk page), why not call me on it instead of pussyfooting about on the issue? I have already let you know at least on this article's talk page and also this one as well that you will never hurt or offend me by citing Wikipedia policy I may inadvertently be violating without realizing it. The only reason for my posting the topic here was that you said it would be inappropriate to mention it on the relevant people's actual pages. Also, I have mentioned my predictions for changes in general church leadership here on this talk page almost every conference since I started making these predictions. No one has ever told me it was inappropriate or a violation of WP policy to do so before, which is why I have continued to do so. And I know that at least one user found such predictions helpful and interesting. If it is a violation of Wikipedia's talk page policy, just let me know, and I will move this entire discussion to my talk page where it would be more appropriate. I express gratitude in advance for your candor on this and all other issues in which I may unknowingly be violating Wikipedia policy. I anxiously await your reply and will, based upon what you have to say, either comment in response or else move the entire discussion to my talk page. Fair enough? --Jgstokes (talk) 06:58, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * The way that guidelines and policies are written often leave room for some degree of interpretation. That's of necessity, I think, simply because guidelines need to speak in generalities and then be applied to very specific situations. So I'm not comfortable in most situations to simply declare that something is a violation of a guideline or policy, because there are too many variables: I might be overlooking something; I might not be fully informed about the guideline or about the situation; the guideline might be interpreted differently by other users; there might be legitimate disagreement about the applicability of the guideline to the particular situation; and so forth. For these reasons, I much prefer to give my opinion rather than to "lay down the law" and just tell others how it is. (Plus, I don't really want to come across as a dick, because I believe I'm basically a good and nice person.) So–in my opinion, the posting of these predictions are not in harmony with the guidelines on the purposes and uses of article talk pages. I never stated my opinion before simply because it was easy to overlook, not that big of a deal, and I assumed it may have been a one-time thing or at best a passing fad. But ultimately, you (and other editors, if they want to be involved) can have a look at the guidelines (which are here: Talk page guidelines), and decide what to do. I'm not going to be pushing the issue and I think this is the last I will say about it. Good Ol’factory (talk) 10:14, 16 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your honestly expressed opinion. I have reviewed the talk page guidelines, and, since no one else has objected to this topic in the past, since I believe it is relevant to the article subject, I will leave it here. Whether or not I will continue to post similar topics prior to future general conferences is something I will consider closer to the time in light of the policies involved. I see no harm in letting people know what I think might happen in the future, especially when that opinion has been backed up by a previously mentioned and referenced well-reasoned argument. ChristensenMJ agrees with me on my emeritus status predictions for Walker and Amado. I have recently started a blog, and on that blog, I have put predictions relative to general conference. What I might do in the future is leave a link to the blog via the talk page for any who are interested, and in that way I can share my predictions my way outside of Wikipedia without violating policies of any kind. Thanks for the candid discussion on this issue. I will consider it closed with honor until after general conference, when we can see how accurate the predictions are. Until that time, there are other issues on this talk page that are unresolved. If you could look over those, Good Ol’factory, and comment on them again, I'd appreciate it. I could also use feedback on the Area (LDS Church) talk page, where we are missing some of the latest statistics. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 10:32, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Change in advisers to Church magazines.
Got my October magazines in the mail today. In glancing at the box that lists the general authorities who supervise the publishing of the magazines, I was pleased to see that those brethren who have accepted Area Leadership assignments overseas have been replaced in their assignments as advisers to the Church magazines. Craig A. Cardon continues as editor. Mervyn B. Arnold and Christoffel Golden Jr. continue as advisers. Released as advisers due to their overseas assignments in area presidencies are: Jose L. Alonso, Shayne M. Bowen, and Stanley G. Ellis. The new advisers to the Church magazines are: Larry R. Lawrence, James B. Martino, and Joseph W. Sitati. This information can be confirmed by looking at the list of advisers in the Ensign, New Era, and The Friend. The Liahona lists the old advisers still, but it may have been printed before the change in advisers took place. Since this information is verifiable by at least three sources, I am implementing the changes into this article. Questions or comments may be posted here. Glad to see that some brethren have been relieved of pulling double duty! --Jgstokes (talk) 07:44, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Oldest living apostle.
Why, if, from the apostles' listed birthdays, it is evident that Elder Nelson is one day older than President Packer, is Packer listed as the oldest living apostle? I checked the table, and it seems that the information is correct. I just don't know the reason for this error showing up. Does anyone have an explanation or knowledge to fix this? --Jgstokes (talk) 06:37, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Let me restate my question so it's less confusing. If, as we can see by the birthdates of the apostles, Russell M. Nelson is a day older than Boyd K. Packer, why does Packer appear on this chart to be the oldest living apostle? If anyone wants to comment or knows how to fix this, please post here. --Jgstokes (talk) 21:36, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Area Leadership Assignments 2015
The 2015 Area Leadership Assignments have been announced by the Church. I have analyzed these assignments and noted the changes that will be made. I list them here. As with previous years, we need to create a subpage to store these changes until they are effective. Here they are:
 * First Quorum of the Seventy:
 * Yoon Hwan Choi (who completes a two-year assignment as president of the Seattle Washington Mission in July) will be the new Second Counselor in the Asia North Area.
 * Edward Dube will be released as Second Counselor in the Africa West Area.
 * Larry J. Echo Hawk will be released as Second Counselor in the Philippines Area.
 * David F. Evans will be the new Second Counselor in the Africa West Area.
 * Carlos A. Godoy will be the new Second Counselor in the South America Northwest Area.
 * C. Scott Grow will be released as Second Counselor in the South America Northwest Area.
 * Allen D. Haynie will be the new Second Counselor in the Philippines Area.
 * Paul V. Johnson will be the new First Counselor in the Europe Area.
 * Patrick Kearon, the former First Counselor in the Europe Area, will be the new President.
 * Jörg Klebingat, the former Second Counselor in the Europe East Area, will be the new First Counselor.
 * Michael T. Ringwood will be released as President of the Asia North Area.
 * Jose A. Teixeira will be released as President of the Europe Area and will be the new Second Counselor in the South America South Area.
 * Francisco J. Viñas, the former Second Counselor in the South America South Area, will be the new First Counselor.
 * Scott D. Whiting, the former Second Counselor in the Asia North Area, will be the new President.
 * Kazuhiko Yamashita (who completes a two-year assignment as president of the Japan Nagoya Mission in July) will be the new First Counselor in the Asia North Area.
 * Jorge F. Zeballos will be released as First Counselor in the South America South Area.


 * Second Quorum of the Seventy:
 * Wilford W. Andersen will be a new Co-Supervisor in the Middle East/Africa North Area.
 * Koichi Aoyagi will be released as First Counselor in the Asia North Area.
 * Randall K. Bennett will be released as First Counselor in the Europe East Area.
 * Bruce A. Carlson will be released as Co-Supervisor in the Middle East/Africa North Area.
 * Larry S. Kacher will be released as Co-Supervisor of the Middle East/Africa North Area and will be the new Second Counselor in the Europe East Area.
 * Larry R. Lawrence will be a new Co-Supervisor in the Middle East/Africa North Area.

As you can see from the list above, there will likely be a reshuffling of responsibilities at Church headquarters. David F. Evans, who will become the new Second Counselor in the Africa West Area, currently serves as the Executive Director of the Church Missionary Department. And Paul V. Johnson, who will take on an assignment as First Counselor in the Europe Area, currently serves as the Commissioner of Church Education. When I was initially predicting who might be released from the Second Quorum in October, Wilford W. Andersen and Koichi Aoyagi were both on that list. In view of the assignments above, I don't think it likely that Elder Andersen will be released. But all the rest called over six years ago might be eligible.

I will make a subpage for these changes and begin to make the changes there. I will post the location of the subpage as soon as it is created. Post any comments here. --Jgstokes (talk) 06:03, 29 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Subpage created, and changes made! You can find the subpage here. Among the other changes I made to the subpage that are not found here are sources for assignments that were previously unsourced and the addition of other needed sources. I also updated this page and the subpage with Elder W. Craig Zwick's assignment as president of the San Juan Puerto Rico Mission and sourced that change. As soon as I have any information on the new Executive Director of the Church Missionary Department, Commissioner of Church Education, any other department assignment changes, and new advisers to the Church magazines, I will post them here. Thanks for taking time to read the comments in this section and responding as you feel the need to. --Jgstokes (talk) 07:38, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Not sure how it happened, but somehow when I removed President Packer from the subpage listing of the apostles, it somehow removed all of this year's assignments that I had put in. I was able to correct this by undoing the relevant edit, then readding the information about Packer's death by copying over the apostles section from this page to the subpage. That should take care of the errors I found on the subpage. Less than a month till these assignments are effective. Still no information on who will replace Elder Evans and Elder Paul V. Johnson in their assignments now that they have area presidency assignments, but I will make those changes as I find out information. Any questions? --Jgstokes (talk) 09:30, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Zwick Mission President
(Just for context, given the appropriate designation as a new section, the statement below was originally directed toward Jgstokes in the above section about changes in the magazines. ChristensenMJ (talk) 14:50, 22 July 2015 (UTC))


 * I saw your post regarding Elder Zwick's call as a Mission President. He began service in 2014 immediately upon receiving that call, but in July a new President began serving. (K. Bruce Boucher) If you do a search on Deseret News it comes up. (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865603749/New-mission-presidents.html?pg=all) That should be the webpage. Thank you for your hard work and dedication to keeping these pages up to date. Sarrott (talk) 13:15, 22 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, Sarrott, this was addressed some time ago. Thanks so much! ChristensenMJ (talk) 14:37, 22 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks again for clarifying this for me, ChristensenMJ, I really appreciate it. --Jgstokes (talk) 06:22, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Changes in Magazine Editor/Adivsers
Dear Friends: With the PDF edition of the August 2015 Ensign up, there has been a change in Church magazine editorship and advisers. I have analyzed these changes, and that analyzation has yielded the following results:
 * July 2015:
 * Editor: Craig A. Cardon
 * Advisers: Mervyn B. Arnold, Christoffel Golden, Larry R. Lawrence, James B. Martino, Joseph W. Sitati


 * August 2015:
 * Editor: Joseph W. Sitati
 * Advisers: Randall K. Bennett, Craig A. Cardon, Christoffel Golden, Larry R. Lawrence, James B. Martino


 * Released as Editor: Craig A. Cardon
 * Called as Editor: Joseph W. Sitati
 * Released as Advisers: Mervyn B. Arnold, Joseph W. Sitati
 * Called as advisers: Randall K. Bennett, Craig A. Cardon

If everyone is okay with me implementing these changes into the article that carries the August 2015 changes, I will go ahead and make those changes to the subpage. While we're on the subject of the subpage, that reminds me. Someone (I'm not sure who) changed the title of the subpage without my knowledge or consent. I hate it when people do that with pages I have created. I'd like to know who's responsible for that renaming, because I'd like to take issue with that editor. But the name has been changed now, and I can't alter it. You can now find the subpage here. In the meantime, I'll make the changes. --Jgstokes (talk) 04:40, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Not sure what renaming you are talking about but the subpage is still there User:Jgstokes/List of general authorities of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints August 2015 - the link you have above has "the Church" instead of "The Church" and I can't see a move in the history of the page - that is where a name change (move) information would be located. If I am misunderstanding which subpage moved - please leave a link to it and I'll track it down and move it back. -- Trödel 14:45, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Someone took the subpage from User:Jgstokes/List of general authorities of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints/August 2015 and moved it to User:Jgstokes/List of general authorities of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints August 2015. All they did was take out the second backslash, but it changed the location of the page entirely. It's just as well the new subpage was listed on my watchlist or I would have had trouble finding it. If we could get it back to its' original location, that would be much appreciated. I know it doesn't make much difference, but, in my mind, the second backslash made it more clear what period of time the subpage was for. I'm really bothered that someone moved it without consulting me. A note on my talk page would have been nice. But I have learned through sad experience that there are maybe only a handful of editors that would be courteous enough to consult me before making major changes like that to a page I created. It's mildly frustrating. If you are able to move it back, Trodel, I'd appreciate it. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 06:22, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Moved per your request - I could find nothing in the logs about it being moved. Since it was on your watchlist it is possible that the "/" was stripped out or left off somehow when the page was created. -- Trödel

Thank you very much, Trodel! I know I probably shouldn't have been worried about it, but it still bothered me. Thanks for all your great work! --Jgstokes (talk) 23:53, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
 * YW (that's you're welcome not young women) hahaha I've had a few awkward txts where someone interpreted YW as young women -- Trödel 15:42, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Update in CES Board Membership
I was pleased to see that the apostles section of this list includes updates on the members of the Church Board of Education and I agree that though no official source was listed to verify this that Dallin H. Oaks and Jeffrey R. Holland are serving on the board. However, David A. Bednar is also mentioned in the same source as being at the inaugural ceremonies, so I listed him as a board member, since, until the incapacitation of Richard G. Scott, there have consistently been 3 apostles on the board. I know already that some may contend Bednar was merely there in his capacity as a former BYU-Idaho president. But if that's the case, why weren't Kim B. Clark and Henry B. Eyring in attendance at the inauguration as well? There is a strong case for listing Bednar as a board member, which is why I included him on that list. If you disagree, please post here. --Jgstokes (talk) 07:25, 16 September 2015 (UTC)
 * See response on talk page of Church Educational System article. Recognize that none of the sources specifically addressed Board membership, just attendance, so good faith edit to try and assume membership. ChristensenMJ (talk) 12:42, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Emeritus General Authorities
The list of Emeritus General Authorities is missing Elders Aoyagi and Carlson who were released as members of the 2nd Quorum of the Seventy and designated as Emeritus during the October conference. I don't know if this a new policy change or what others may occur. The LDS.org leadership page also has both the 1st and 2nd quorums listed together under the heading of General Authority Seventies.Sarrott (talk) 19:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)Sarrott
 * As you noted, in connection with the conference, the church's webpage has been updated. I added Clarke to the listing of emeritus men, but specifically waited on the other two.  I realize it was stated that way (designating all three as emeritus) during the business, but was hoping to find more specific references to validate or clarify.  This would be a change in policy/practice - with those in the Second Quorum previously just released and only those who'd been in the First Quorum designated as emeritus. ChristensenMJ (talk) 19:26, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Here is the official Church news release. It also lists them as Emeritus. http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/releases-announced-at-october-2015-general-conference  Sarrott (talk) 19:57, 5 October 2015 (UTC)Sarrott
 * Looks good. Presumed it was a change in practice, good to include the release. ChristensenMJ (talk) 20:27, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Additions to the editorship and advisership of the Church magazines.
Hello, friends! The PDF version of the November 2015 Ensign is up, and there have been further changes in the editorship and advisorship of the Church magazines. James B. Martino, formerly an adviser to the Church magazines, has been named as one of two assistant editors. Other editors and advisers have been added from among the general officers of the Church, which I have made on that page. I will discuss those changes in a topic on that article's talk page. As these are sourced, please do not revert without discussing it first. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 08:05, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Presidency of the Seventy assignments
I have restored this listing, as well as similar information describing the current organization on the article Seventy (LDS Church), to a prior version. Although it's certainly possible that the assignments may end up as the good faith edits described - and would be the easiest way to minimize disruption - this is not assured. There is no long-established pattern or precedent for this. Yes, it has been this way since 2009, but that is tied directly to the time Ronald A. Rasband served as the senior member of the Presidency of the Seventy. So, any longevity for the practice may be perceived to be stronger than it really is. There is no reference point to know if this is the new "model" that will be used, or if it was more tied into his own management style or preferences. Since the announced changes to the membership last week, there has been a ref note included in the column reflecting Area assignments that they could possibly change. At this point, without a true lack of pattern, this is purely speculative in nature. As noted, it may end up being what transpires, but it seems prudent to wait for that confirmation. ChristensenMJ (talk) 14:37, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I was the one who made those good faith edits. I know we only have Rasband's previous assignment as precedent for stating the Senior President of the Seventy assists in all areas, but I have also noticed that, whenever a new member of the Presidency is called, unless otherwise specified, they take on the assignment previously held by the one they replaced. Since Clayton replaced Rasband as Senior President and since Gerrit W. Gong replaced Clayton as a regular presidency member, it is not unreasonable to assume that Clayton took Rasband's assignment and Gong took Clayton's assignment. However, I know there are two sides to every coin, so I would not have a problem waiting until something official from the Church either validates or negates this. Thanks for all your efforts, ChristensenMJ, to promote accuracy and have articles reflect the latest offiical information. As always, I owe you big time for tending to this.--Jgstokes (talk) 07:58, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the thoughts and efforts, Jgstokes. Aside from the things we've addressed above, another thing is simply to recognize that there is still a transition time taking place with Gong's assignment in Asia.  While he's been announced in the new assignment, it's also premature to make changes until that transition is completed.  As I indicated above, the changes may indeed eventually become what the good faith edit represented, but seems better to wait until there is some verification of this. ChristensenMJ (talk) 14:53, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

The lack of assignation of General Authority Seventies signals a change in direction
The PDF of the November 2015 Ensign is now available. I was intrigued to see that in the chart showing general authorities and officers in the magazine, in the PDF Chart put out by the Deseret News, and on the Church websites' listing, that there is no longer a differentiation or distinction being made to show who is in the First or Second Quorums of the Seventy. Obviously, something changed, but I don't know what this will mean later on. Since the list is that way in three different places, I am wondering if we should or should not consider listing them on one table, while still making a distinction between those in the First and Second Qourums of the Seventy. Thoughts? --Jgstokes (talk) 07:53, 31 October 2015 (UTC)
 * As noted, it is true that the church has made a change in simply designating those serving as General Authority Seventies. I opened a related talk section on the article for Seventy (LDS Church). As you alluded to, among other things, it remains to be seen whether there will still be a shorter term of service, perhaps 5-7 years, for those previously shown as being members of the Second Quorum of the Seventy, with an emeritus general authority designation accompanied with a release, independent of age. That may or may not become more clear with any sustaining that may occur in April. I think I personally would be OK either way - to leave it as shown, with some note or other ref indicating the change in terminology, or blending the tables while retaining designation until more information is clear.  It might depend on how clean it looks or how it's done. ChristensenMJ (talk) 15:02, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

In the "Sustaining of Church Officers" conducted yesterday (4/2/16), Dieter F. Uchtdorf led out in the sustaining of 11 new general authorities. Signalling an official change in the practice of the Church in referring to general authority seventies, those sustained were not designated as members of the First or Second Quorums of the Seventy but were merely sustained as general authority seventies. In light of this designation, it appears we should follow the Church's style in no longer differentiating between the General Authority Quorums of the Seventy. Thoughts? --Jgstokes (talk) 07:11, 3 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I called the office of the Seventy and while the new GA Seventies will belong to a specific quorum they will no longer announce which quorum. Also there is no longer a difference between the two quorums in regard to length of service. (Age Seventy vs. 6 years.)Sorry if I didn't post/sign this properly, just wanted to share what I learned. Sarrott (talk) 20:44, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

That sounds a bit sketchy to me. Why would they suddenly stop announcing which quorum they belong to? If that is true, the question then becomes, how do we list them? If that information is not available, what can be done in that regard? I will look at the Church's official bios on this to see if the question can be settled. --Jgstokes (talk) 00:22, 5 April 2016 (UTC) The official biographies of these men doesn't settle the question in the slightest. They are simply listed as "General Authority Seventies" without a quorum designation. So the question still remains, how do we list them? I would suggest either merging the First and Second Quorums of the Seventy or creating a whole new section for those whose quorum affiliation is not known. I will try to contact the Church to get more on this. Bear with me a few days. In the meantime, we have to list them some way, but how? --Jgstokes (talk) 00:34, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I created a template for those with no quorum designation, but I can't get it to show up right on the page. I will be working on this some more. Anyone is welcome to help. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 00:58, 5 April 2016 (UTC)

Have created a table for the newly sustained General Authority Seventies. I have used the feedback on the Church's website to request more information about quorum affiliation. Will keep you posted on that as information becomes available. Thoughts? --Jgstokes (talk) 04:00, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Just played out a hunch. Looked again on lds.org at the biographies of the General Authority Seventies, and the assignation for those previously designated as being in the First or Second Quorums of the Seventy has changed to now simply be "general authority seventies" and there is no listed differentiation between those of the First or Second QUorums. Given that we also know that former members of the Second Quorum of the Seventy have now been designated "emeritus general authorities", and given the facts that those new GA Seventies weren't sustained to a specific quorum, it is my proposal that, for this page, we list them under one section. It'll take some work, which I won't do now because time doesn't allow it, and the consensus is not established to do so. The appropriate changes will also need to be made to the specific Seventy page and on all the biographies of past and present seventies if this change is implemented Wikipedia-wide. Thoughts? --Jgstokes (talk) 01:40, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Does the absence of comments in reply to my comment above signal that everyone is okay with this change? I don't mean to pressure anybody, but feel these changes, if they are to be implemented, should happen sooner rather than later. I won't do it if no one else is in favor of making the change, but how I am to know whether or not that is the case? Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 21:55, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Former area seventies
At the bottom of the chart of Seventies, there is a note that says, "Those marked with * were Area Seventy prior to call as a General Authority." However, most of those who were area seventies before they were GAs are not marked with an asterisk. Is this supposed to be accurate, or is it a feature of the chart that has been discontinued and just not updated for a long time? Right now, it seems to be pretty much randomly applied to those that were in fact area seventies. Good Ol’factory (talk) 05:08, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * This is a good point that is well worth addressing. I think we should do the research it will take to verify who in fact were area seventies before being called to the seventy. Thoughts? (P. S. My thanks to Good Ol'factory and ChristensenMJ for their excellent assistance in updating this page. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 21:56, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * So it's just a matter of the info not being updated consistently? If so, I don't mind adding the ones that need to be added. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:50, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

That seems to pretty much be it. If you want to do/have already done the research, that would be great! Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 02:10, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I have updated the list. I'm not guaranteeing I got them all right, but I think it's far more accurate than it has been. Good Ol’factory (talk) 03:09, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Well done! It looks great! --Jgstokes (talk) 03:32, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

General Authority Seventies merged into one section/Subpage created for August 2016 Changes in Area Leadership
Hello, all! Hope you are all well. I wanted to mention a couple of things in this comment. First of all, it took some work, but after updating the article about seventies in the LDS Church and this article so that all currently serving general authorities are listed under the one title (finally!), I have also created a subpage in my user space to hold changes in Area Leadership that will be effective in August. I will spend the next couple of minutes getting that list up-to-date with the latest announced assignments, but I first wanted to let you know what those changes will be. Having analyzed the changes announced, the following will appear on the subpage:

Changes in Area Leadership August 2016
 * General Authority Seventies:
 * Marcus A. Aidukaitis, the former Second Counselor in the Brazil Area, will be the new First Counselor.
 * Ian S. Ardern will be released as President of the Philippines Area.
 * W. Mark Bassett will be the new Second Counselor in the Brazil Area.
 * Mark A. Bragg will be the new Second Counselor in the South America South Area.
 * Shayne M. Bowen, the former First Counselor in the Philippines Area, will be the new President.
 * Craig A. Cardon will be the new Second Counselor in the Pacific Area.
 * Carl B. Cook will be released as President of the Africa Southeast Area.
 * Lawrence E. Corbridge will be the new First Counselor in the South America Northwest Area.
 * J. Devn Cornish will be released as President of the Caribbean Area.
 * LeGrand R. Curtis Jr. will be released as President of the Africa West Area.
 * Benjamin De Hoyos will be released as President of the Mexico Area.
 * Timothy J. Dyches will be released as Second Counselor in the Europe Area.
 * David F. Evans will be the new Second Counselor in the Asia Area.
 * Carlos A. Godoy, the former First Counselor in the South America Northwest Area, will be the new President.
 * Walter F. Gonzalez, the former President of the South America South Area, will be the new President of the Caribbean Area.
 * Allen D. Haynie, the former Second Counselor in the Philippines Area, will be the new First Counselor.
 * O. Vincent Haleck, the former First Counselor in the Pacific Area, will be the new President.
 * Kevin S. Hamilton, the former Second Counselor in the Africa Southeast Area, will be the new President.
 * Jörg Klebingat will be released as First Counselor in the Europe East Area.
 * Jairo Mazzagardi will be released as First Counselor in the Brazil Area.
 * James B. Martino will be the new First Counselor in the Europe East Area.
 * Marcus B. Nash will be the new First Counselor in the Africa West Area.
 * S. Gifford Nielsen, the former Second Counselor in the Pacific Area, will be the new First Counselor
 * S. Mark Palmer will be the new Second Counselor in the Africa Southeast Area,
 * Paul B. Pieper, the former First Counselor in the Mexico Area, will be the new President.
 * Allan F. Packer will be the new First Counselor in the South America South Area.
 * Rafael E. Pino will be the new Second Counselor in the Mexico Area.
 * Gary B. Sabin will be the new Second Counselor in the Europe Area.
 * Evan A. Schmutz will be the new Second Counselor in the Philippines Area.
 * Jose A. Teixeira, the former Second Counselor in the South America South Area, will be the new President.
 * Juan A. Uceda will be released as President of the South America Northwest Area.
 * Arnulfo Valenzuela, the former Second Counselor in the Mexico Area, will be the new First Counselor.
 * Francisco J. Vinas will be released as First Counselor in the South America South Area.
 * Terrence M. Vinson, the former First Counselor in the Africa West Area, will be the new President.


 * Area Seventies:
 * Siu Hong Pon will be released as Second Counselor in the Asia Area.

As you can see from this list, there will also be some changes in the executive and assistant executive directorships of Church departments and the editorship and advisorship of the Church magazines. I will keep my eye out for all this good stuff and post those changes on the subpage as they become available. Since Elder Teh's assignment as Taiwan Taichung Mission President will also be effective by that time, I will post that on there as well. Please post here with any questions/feedback. Thanks to you all for your efforts. --Jgstokes (talk) 07:08, 1 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Subpage has been merged into this page; now all that needs to happen is that the page histories need to be merged. How does it look? --Jgstokes (talk) 20:33, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Changes in South America Northeast Area Presidency/Changes yet unknown
Hello, dear friends! I read in the Church News today that Enrique R. Falabella has replaced Lawrence E. Corbridge as First Counselor in the South America Northwest Area Presidency. I have made this change on this page. I will also note that, in view of the Area Leadership assignments assumed by Seventies that had been serving at Church headquarters, those assignments have been transferred to others. But no official word from the Church on what those changes are. I know, for example, that Falabella was an advisor to the Perpetual Education Fund, and Craig A. Cardon, an adviser to the Church magazines and James B. Martino, assistant editor of the Church magazines, have also assumed assignments in areas.These individuals have likely been replaced in their callings, but as of the printing of the September Church magazines, nothing has changed in those assignments. I imagine since those issues are published in advance there simply hasn'tbeen time to note those changes. I will keep my eyes peeled and let you know as soon as I know anything. Now I just need to make this chage to this page. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 01:02, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Changes in Magazine Editor/Adviser
The following changes, which I will include in the article, are effective as of the printing of the October 2016 Ensign.

September 2016:
 * Editor: Joseph W. Sitati
 * Assistant Editors: James B. Martino, Carol F. McConkie
 * Advisers: Brian K. Ashton, Randall K. Bennett, Jean B. Bingham, Craig A. Cardon, Christoffel Golden, Douglas D. Holmes, Larry R. Lawrence, Carole M. Stephens

October 2016:
 * Editor: Joseph W. Sitati
 * Assistant Editors: Randall K. Bennett, Carol F. McConkie
 * Advisers: Brian K. Ashton, Jean B. Bingham, Legrand R. Curtis Jr., Christoffel Golden, Douglas D. Holmes, Erich W. Kopischke, Larry R. Lawrence, Carole M. Stephens


 * Released as Assistant Editor: James B. Martino:
 * Called as Assistant Editor: Randall K. Bennett
 * Released as Advisers: Randall K. Bennett, Craig A. Cardon
 * Called as Advisers: LeGrand R. Curtis, Jr., Erich W. Kopischke

Any questions? --Jgstokes (talk) 05:36, 22 September 2016 (UTC)--Jgstokes (talk) 05:36, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Other Assignments section?
I am writing to ask if it would be helpful to have a section titled "Other Assignments" for all general authorities? The reason I ask is this: I had gotten curious about what assignments all Church leaders held. I was told that most other assignments can be found by consulting the biographies of the Church leaders. That and what I've observed has led me to do a bit more research about what assignments the Church leaders have. I am still working on it, but I wanted to ask if it would be appropriate to include my findings as long as there is appropriate documentation, which is a work in progress. Thoughts? --Jgstokes (talk) 05:53, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Among the changes I am proposing would be an additional section listing the area assignments of the apostles, which I am attempting to gather, while a second apostolic section would list any other assignments. Another edit would be made to the General Authority Seventies section where the area assignment would list the area and the position together, e.g. President, Asia Area or Second Counselor, Pacific Area. The GA Seventies would then have a separate section for other assignments, including involvement with the Church magazines, and executive or assistant executive directorship of the various Church departments. Given a few more days to research this, I could have such a list easily assembled. Thoughts? --Jgstokes (talk) 09:51, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Changes Needing to Be Addressed on This Page
Hello, all! If any of you have been following the edits I have tried to make on this page, I wanted to explain what I am trying to accomplish with them at which I seem to be failing for the moment. Any help would be appreciated. Here's my main objection: The photo gallery containing the photos of all of the currently serving apostles for whom we have images is currently conjoined to the table listing the names, hierarchical positions, date ordained, age, and membership listing for the Council on the Disposition of the Tithes. I wanted to put a space or two in between the gallery and the table, but I can't seem to make it work. Any help would be appreciated. Also, FWIW, I found an article on the Deseret News earlier last week that talked about the role of Church councils. That article quoted several of our general authorities and listed their current assignments in the hierarchy. Because of the information there, I updated this page with those assignments. I hope that is agreeable to you all. Also, when the death of Bruce D. Porter was announced, the Deseret News made mention of the fact that he had been released earlier in December from his assignment as Europe East Area President. This means that that area presidency has been reorganized in some way. I think I have an idea about some of the changes that took place, but unless some research verifies that opinion of mine and I can reference it, we will just have to hope that the Church soon decides to mention how that happened and who is in the newly reorganized area presidency. Stay tuned for that. In the meantime, you can bet I will be doing some research on that as time and circumstances allow. Thanks for wading through this. Hope this information helps. --Jgstokes (talk) 20:06, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

August 2017 Area Leadership Changes Incorporated
Hello, all! After absenting myself from Wikipedia for the last several months (to take care of health issues), I realized that August 1 had come and gone and that no one had made the changes to Area Leadership Assignments. Even in taking my wikibreak, I found that I could still put together what those changes were, and I have incorporated the following changes into this page:

Changes in Area Leadership August 2017
 * NOTE: Where applicable, I am also noting changes that are likely in the advisers of the Church magazines in view of these assignments, which appear in bold type.
 * ADDITIONAL NOTE: There is one case, noted in italics below, where the noted changes will likely take place sooner than August 1, in view of Elder Wong’s call as a mission president.


 * Presidency of the Seventy:
 * Elders Donald L. Hallstrom (who has been supervising the North America Northwest and North America West Areas) and Richard J. Maynes (who has been supervising the North America Southeast Area) will be released from the Presidency of the Seventy and, as noted, will take other assignments at Church headquarters.
 * Elders Juan A. Uceda and Patrick Kearon will fill the resulting vacancies in this presidency, with Elder Uceda overseeing the North America Southeast Area (succeeding Elder Maynes) and Elder Kearon overseeing the North America Northwest and North America West Areas (succeeding Elder Hallstrom).

Additionally, in view of his new assignment in the Presidency, Elder Patrick Kearon will be released as President of the Europe Area.
 * NOTE: In the August 2017 Ensign, other changes were noted in the assignments of the Presidency members; most notably that the previously announced assignments of Elder Lynn G. Robbins and Elder Juan A. Uceda would be reversed, with Elder Robbins overseeing the North America Southeast Area, and Elder Uceda taking Elder Robbins’ former assignment of overseeing the North America Southwest Area.


 * General Authority Seventies:
 * Marcos A. Aidukaitis released as First Counselor and called as President of the Brazil Area.
 * Jose L. Alonso released as Second Counselor in the Central America Area Presidency and called as Second Counselor in the ::Caribbean Area Presidency.
 * Wilford W. Andersen released as the junior administrator of the Middle East/Africa North Area, and called as the senior administrator (referred to for the first time as Area President.)
 * NOTE: While the Church News article on this assignment (which was published on May 3, 2017) noted the change in Elder Andersen’s title, no mention of that was subsequently made in the August 2017 Ensign in the article discussing this year’s changes.
 * Ian S. Ardern called as Second Counselor in the Pacific Area Presidency.
 * W. Mark Bassett released as Second Counselor and called as First Counselor in the Brazil Area Presidency.
 * Craig A. Cardon released as Second Counselor and called as First Counselor in the Pacific Area Presidency.
 * Valeri V. Cordon called as Second Counselor in the Central America Area Presidency.
 * Claudio R. M. Costa released as President of the Brazil Area.
 * Joaquin E. Costa called as Second Counselor in the Brazil Area Presidency.
 * Massimo De Feo called as Second Counselor in the Europe Area Presidency.
 * Kevin R. Duncan released as President of the Central America Area.
 * Stanley G. Ellis released as First Counselor in the Africa Southeast Area Presidency.
 * David F. Evans released as Second Counselor and called as First Counselor in the Asia Area Presidency.
 * NOTE: Elder Evans is succeeding Elder Wong, as noted below. It is therefore likely that we will see this change happen sooner than August, if it has not already taken place.
 * Robert C. Gay called as President of the Asia North Area.
 * Christoffel Golden called as First Counselor in the Europe East Area Presidency.
 * NOTE: Elder Golden’s new assignment will necessitate his release as an adviser to the Church Magazines. Follow-up note (added on 7/20/17): If such a change has been made, it is not reflected in the August 2017 magazines.
 * Paul V. Johnson released as First Counselor in the Europe Area Presidency and called as the Area President.
 * Larry S. Kacher released as First Counselor in the Europe East Area Presidency and called as Second Counselor in the Africa West Area Presidency.
 * Joni L. Koch called as Second Counselor in the Africa Southeast Area Presidency.
 * Larry R. Lawrence released as the senior administrator of the Middle East/Africa North Area.
 * NOTE: It is likely that Elder Lawrence will be granted emeritus status in October, which would also necessitate his release as an adviser to the Church magazines. Follow-up note (added on 7/20/17): If such a change has been made, it is not reflected in the August 2017 magazines.
 * Hugo E. Martinez released as Second Counselor in the Caribbean Area Presidency.
 * Peter F. Meurs called as Second Counselor in the Asia Area Presidency.
 * NOTE: Elder Meurs replaces Elder Evans, who is succeeding Elder Wong, as noted below. It is therefore likely that we will see this change happen sooner than August, if it has not already taken place.
 * S. Gifford Nielsen released as First Counselor in the Pacific Area Presidency.
 * Adrian Ochoa released as First Counselor and called as the President of the Central America Area
 * S. Mark Palmer released as Second Counselor and called as First Counselor in the Africa Southeast Area Presidency.
 * Anthony D. Perkins called as the junior administrator of the Middle East/Africa North Area (referred to for the first time as the First Counselor of that area).
 * NOTE: While the Church News article on this assignment (which was published on May 3, 2017) noted this somewhat different title, no mention of that was subsequently made in the August 2017 Ensign in the article discussing this year’s changes.
 * Gary B. Sabin released as Second Counselor and called as First Counselor in the Europe Area Presidency.
 * Vern P. Stanfill released as Second Counselor in the Africa West Area Presidency.
 * Scott D. Whiting released as President of the Asia North Area.
 * Chi Hong (Sam) Wong released as First Counselor in the Asia Area Presidency.
 * NOTE: Elder Wong, who has been asked to serve as president of the Canada Vancouver Mission starting in July, has likely already been released from this assignment to allow him to prepare for this new one.
 * Jorge F. Zeballos called as First Counselor in the Central America Area Presidency.

As noted above, Elder Hallstrom has been released from the Presidency of the Seventy. Along with that, I assume, has come his release from his role with the Church Educational System. I have reached out to the Church to find out information about who might have replaced him in that. I know of some editors here (perhaps ChristensenMJ, for example), who may be of help to us with that information, as they have previously. But rest assured that I am working on getting an answer myself and will post again when that information comes to my attention. It is great to be back. Hope these edits were helpful. --Jgstokes (talk) 01:37, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

General musings about General Authority Assignments
Hello, everyone! As some of you may be aware, in light of the changes made to the Church Board of Education, I expanded the section of information about the Presiding Bishopric members. I have also been intrigued to read the biographies on the Church website about each of our individual General Authority Seventies. One major result of reading those recently is that the biographies of the members of the Presidency of the Seventy include information on which apostles they are assisting in area supervision roles. I therefore wanted to note that I am working on compiling what that list of assignments look like, including double-checking the biographies of each GA Seventy and General Officer of the Church to ensure I am not overlooking anything. As soon as I can confirm its accuracy, I will incorporate that additional information on to this page. For now, I wanted to let you all know that this is a work in progress. I will keep you all posted on that. In the meantime, thanks to you all for your continued efforts on this page! --Jgstokes (talk) 02:10, 12 September 2017 (UTC)

What constitutes alphabetical order?
Hello, everyone! In the last couple of weeks, I have been working on compiling a more complete list of assignments for the currently serving General Authorities and officers, about which I will go into in a separate topic below this one. But I did want to note one thing: In making a list of those changes (based on information contained in the Mormon Newsroom biographies and in the Church News, a couple of the names of these men were in a different order than the one in which they appear here. First of all, Benjamin De Hoyos & Massimo De Feo, who have previously been listed among other GA Seventies whose last names begin with D, were moved down, De Feo to the other last names beginning with "F" and De Hoyos to the other last names begining with H. This also brings up an interesting question that came up on the Area Seventies page some years ago, to which I believe no resolution was ever found: Should De, de, Da or da in a last name impact where that surname falls on an alphabetical list? I also know that, in some cases, that arrangement doesn't make sense. For example, on the Mormon Newsroom biographies for General Authorities, the Jr. in the names of Elders Curtis & Pingree was used to affect the order in which their names appeared on that list, which meant both of their names were featured among General Authorities whose last names began with the letter J. I wouldn't agree with moving Elders Curtis & Pingree, but I am considering the merits of moving De Hoyos and De Feo. Do any of you have thoughts on the subject? Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 04:30, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

List of Assignments for General Authorities (apostles included)
Hello again! As I promised to do in the topic above this one, I wanted to mention that I have spent the last couple of weeks off-and-on working on going through the biographies of our General Authorities. In doing so for the members of the Presidency of the Seventy, I was intrigued to find that some of these biographies mentioned specifically that they were assigned to assist certain members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles with specific Church areas. For any international areas that I could not find an apostolic assignment (together with which member of the Presidency of the Seventy is assisting them in that assignment), I turned to the Church News, which described who took part in the annual review of each of those areas. Using deductive reasoning, and reading other articles on each of those areas, I was able to verify that assignment for each apostle and member of the Presidency of the Seventy. In further studying those biographies, I was able to compile a preliminary list of assignments for each General Authority Seventy. I post a copy of that for anyone interested. My question is: do we want to include these assignments on this page? Just let me know, and I can get started on doing that. In the meantime, I will keep my eyes open for any changes (including additions, deletions, corrections, and clarifications) that need to be made. I did want to discuss the list before adding this information unilaterally and without allowing proper time for discussion and a consensus decision. Hope this information is helpful to you. Here's the list:


 * Quorum of the Twelve Apostles:
 * President Russell M. Nelson—supervises the Europe East Area
 * Elder Dallin H. Oaks—supervises the Asia North & Mexico Areas; serves on the Church Board of Education & Boards of Trustees; Chairman; Executive Committee of the Boards
 * Elder M. Russell Ballard—supervises the Europe Area
 * Elder Robert D. Hales—in view of his health, he does not appear to be filling any special assignments
 * Elder Jeffrey R. Holland—supervises the Middle East/Africa North Area; serves on the Church Board of Education & Boards of Trustees; Member, Executive Committee of the Board
 * Elder David A. Bednar—supervises the Africa West Area; serves on the Church Board of Education
 * Elder Quentin L. Cook—supervises the Asia Area
 * Elder D. Todd Christofferson—supervises the Brazil Area
 * Elder Neil L. Andersen—supervises the Philippines Area
 * Elder Ronald A. Rasband—supervises the Africa Southeast, Central America & South America South Areas
 * Elder Gary E. Stevenson—supervises the Pacific Area
 * Elder Dale G. Renlund—supervises the Caribbean & South America Northwest Areas; serves on the Church Board of Education


 * Presidency of the Seventy:
 * Elder L. Whitney Clayton—assists in all areas (in the United States and Canada) as assigned; assists Elder Oaks in supervising the Mexico Area & Elder Holland in supervising the Middle East/Africa North Area
 * Elder Craig C. Christensen—supervises the Utah North, Utah Salt Lake City, and Utah South Areas; assists Elder Rasband in supervising the Central America & South America South Areas
 * Elder Ulisses Soares—supervises the Idaho and North America Central Areas; assists Elder Cook in supervising the Asia Area & Elder Rasband in supervising the Africa Southeast Area
 * Elder Lynn G. Robbins—supervises the North America Southeast Area; assists Elder Bednar in supervising the Africa West Area, Elder Christofferson in supervising the Brazil Area & Elder Renlund in supervising the Caribbean & South America Northwest Areas; Member, Human Resources Committee
 * Elder Gerrit W. Gong—supervises the North America Northeast Area; assists Elder Oaks in supervising the Asia North Area; serves on the Church Board of Education & Boards of Trustees; Member, the Executive Committee of the Board
 * Elder Juan A. Uceda—supervises the North America Southwest Area; assists Elder Andersen in supervising the Philippines Area & Elder Stevenson in supervising the Pacific Area
 * Elder Patrick Kearon—supervises the North America Northwest and North America West Areas; assists President Nelson in supervising the Europe East area and Elder Ballard in supervising the Europe Area


 * General Authority Seventies:
 * Elder Marcos A. Aidukaitis—President, Brazil Area
 * Elder Jose L. Alonso—Second Counselor, Caribbean Area
 * Elder Wilford W. Andersen—Senior Administrator, Middle East/Africa North Area; Area Assistant (Idaho and North America Central Areas); Assistant Executive Director, Temple Department
 * Elder Ian S. Ardern—Second Counselor, Pacific Area
 * Elder Mervyn B. Arnold—Area Assistant, Idaho, North America Central, & North America Northwest Areas
 * Elder W. Mark Bassett—First Counselor, Brazil Area
 * Elder David S. Baxter—Currently on medical leave from his Church assignments
 * Elder Randall K. Bennett— Assistant Editor: Ensign, Friend, Liahona and New Era magazines;

Assistant Executive Director, Priesthood and Family Department; Assistant, North America Northeast & Utah South Areas
 * Elder Shayne M. Bowen—President, Philippines Area
 * Elder Mark A Bragg—Second Counselor, South America South Area
 * Elder Craig A. Cardon—First Counselor, Pacific Area
 * Elder Yoon Hwan Choi—Second Counselor, Asia North Area
 * Elder Kim B. Clark—Commissioner, Church Education System; Area Assistant, North America Southwest Area
 * Elder Weatherford T. Clayton—Area Assistant, North America Central & North America Southwest Areas
 * Elder Carl B. Cook—Undisclosed assignments @ Church headquarters
 * Elder Lawrence E. Corbridge—Undisclosed assignments @ Church headquarters
 * Elder Valeri V. Cordon—Second Counselor, Central America Area
 * Elder J. Devn Cornish—Assistant Executive Director, Church History Department; Area Assistant, North America Central & North America Southwest Areas
 * Elder Claudio R. M. Costa: Assistant Executive Director, Missionary Department; Member, Boundary and Leadership Change Committee; Area Assistant, North America Southeast Area
 * Elder Joaquin E. Costa: Second Counselor, Brazil Area
 * Elder Legrand R. Curtis Jr.—Adviser: Ensign, Friend, Liahona and New Era magazines; Assistant Executive Director, Priesthood and Family Department; Area Assistant, North American Southwest Area
 * Elder Edward Dube— Adviser to the Church magazines (Ensign, Friend, Liahona, New Era)
 * Elder Kevin R. Duncan—Assistant Executive Director, Temple Department; Area Assistant, Assistant (Utah North, Utah Salt Lake City, and Utah South Areas)
 * Elder Timothy J. Dyches—Assistant Executive Director, Temple Department
 * Elder Stanley G. Ellis—will likely be granted emeritus status in October, as he turned 70 in January.
 * NOTE: Although his biography on Mormon Newsroom still notes that he is serving in the Africa Southeast Area Presidency, due to the changes in area leadership which became effective on August 1, we know he has been released from that assignment. But by all appearances, that biography has not been updated at all this year.
 * Elder David F. Evans—First Counselor, Asia Area
 * Elder Enrique R. Falabella—First Counselor, South America Northwest Area
 * Elder Massimo De Feo—Second Counselor, Europe Area
 * Elder Bradley D. Foster—Executive Director, Family History Department; Area Assistant, North America Southwest Area
 * Elder Randy D. Funk—President, Asia Area
 * Elder Eduardo Gavarret—Undisclosed assignment at Church headquarters
 * Elder Robert C. Gay—President, Asia North Area
 * Elder Carlos A. Godoy—President, South America Northwest Area
 * Elder Taylor G. Godoy—Undisclosed assignment at Church headquarters
 * Elder Christoffel Golden—First Counselor, Europe East Area
 * Elder Walter F. Gonzalez—President, Caribbean Area
 * Elder C. Scott Grow—currently on medical leave
 * Elder O. Vincent Haleck—President, Pacific Area
 * Elder Donald L. Hallstrom—Board Member, Church Education System; Executive Director, Priesthood and Family Department; Adviser: Ensign, Friend, Liahona and New Era magazines
 * Elder Kevin S. Hamilton—President, Africa Southeast Area
 * Elder Larry J. Echo Hawk—Assistant Executive Director, Correlation Department; Member, Boundary and Leadership Change Committee; Area Assistant, North America Northeast, North America West & North America Southwest Areas
 * Elder Allen D. Haynie—First Counselor, Philippines Area
 * Elder Benjamin De Hoyos—Assistant Executive Director, Temple Department
 * Elder Paul V. Johnson—President, Europe Area
 * Elder Larry S. Kacher—Second Counselor, Africa West Area
 * Elder Von G. Keetch—Executive Director, Church Public Affairs Department; Area Assistant, North America Southwest Area
 * Elder Jörg Klebingat—Assistant Executive Director, Temple Department/Area Assistant (North America Central & North America Southeast Areas
 * Elder Joni L. Koch—Second Counselor, Africa Southeast Area
 * Elder Erich W. Kopsichke—Adviser: Ensign, Friend, Liahona and New Era magazines; Area Assistant (North America Northeast & North America Southeast Areas)
 * Elder Larry R. Lawrence—will likely be granted emeritus status in October, as he turned 70 in August.
 * Elder Hugo E. Martinez— Editor: Ensign, Friend, Liahona and New Era magazines
 * Elder James B. Martino—President, Europe East Area
 * Elder Richard J. Maynes—Undisclosed assignments at Church headquarters
 * Elder Peter F. Meurs—Second Counselor, Asia Area
 * Elder Hugo Montoya—Second Counselor, South America Northwest Area
 * Elder Marcus B. Nash—First Counselor, Africa West Area
 * Elder K. Brett Nattress—Assistant Executive Director, Missionary Department; Area Assistant, Idaho and North America Central Areas
 * Elder S. Gifford Nielsen—Assistant Executive Director, Missionary Department; Area Assistant, North America Northest Area
 * Elder Brent H. Nielson—Executive Director, Missionary Department
 * Elder Adrian Ochoa—President, Central America Area
 * Elder Allan F. Packer—First Counselor, South America South Area
 * Elder S. Mark Palmer—First Counselor, Africa Southeast Area
 * Elder Adilson de Paula Parrella—Undisclosed assignment at Church headquarters
 * Elder Kevin W. Pearson—Area Assistant, North America Southwest Area/Member, Communication Services & Strengthening Church Members Committees
 * Elder Anthony D. Perkins— Executive Director, Correlation Department; Member, Correlation Executive Committee; Junior Administrator, Middle East/Africa North Area
 * Elder Paul B. Pieper—President, Mexico Area
 * Elder John C. Pingree Jr.—Undisclosed assignment at Church headquarters
 * Elder Rafael E. Pino—Second Counselor, Mexico Area
 * Elder Michael T. Ringwood—Member, Self-Reliance Services/PEF, Church Audit, and Welfare Executive Committees
 * Elder Gary B. Sabin—First Counselor, Europe Area
 * Elder Evan A. Schmutz—Second Counselor, Philippines Area
 * Elder Gregory A. Schwitzer—Assistant Executive Director, Church Missionary Department/Chair, Missionary Medical Health Services Division
 * Elder Joseph W. Sitati— Assistant Executive Director, Church Missionary Department/Member, Boundary and Leadership Change Committee
 * Elder Steven E. Snow—Church Historian and Recorder; Executive Director, Church History Department
 * Elder Vern P. Stanfill—Undisclosed assignment at Church headquarters
 * Elder Brian K. Taylor—Undisclosed assignment at Church headquarters
 * Elder Michael John U. Teh—President, Taiwan Taichung Mission
 * Elder Jose A. Teixeira—President, South America South Area
 * Elder Arnulfo Valenzuela—First Counselor, Mexico Area
 * Elder Terence M. Vinson—President, Africa West Area
 * Elder Taniela B. Wakolo—Undisclosed assignment at Church headquarters
 * Elder Scott D. Whiting—Undisclosed assignment at Church headquarters
 * Elder Larry Y. Wilson—Executive Director, Temple Department
 * Elder Chi Hong (Sam) Wong—President, Canada Vancouver Mission
 * Elder Kazuhiko Yamashita—First Counselor, Asia North Area
 * Elder Jorge F. Zeballos—First Counselor, Central America Area
 * Elder Claudio D. Zivic—First Counselor, Caribbean Area
 * Elder W. Craig Zwick—will likely be granted emeritus status in October, as he turned 70 in June.
 * NOTE: While he may indeed be granted emeritus status in October in view of his age, his biography on Mormon Newsroom mentions that he is serving as an Assistant Executive Director of the Missionary Department & Committee Chair of the Utah Hispanic Initiative.


 * Presiding Bishop:
 * Bishop Gerald Causse—Member, Church Board of Education


 * General Auxiliary Presidencies:
 * Joy D. Jones, Primary General President—Member, Temple & Family History Council
 * Bonnie H. Cordon, First Counselor, Primary General Presidency— Adviser to the Church magazines (Ensign, Friend, Liahona, New Era)
 * Jean B. Bingham, Relief Society General President—Church Board of Education & Boards of Trustees; Member, Executive Committee of the Boards; Member; Priesthood & Family Executive Council
 * Sharon Eubank, First Counselor, Relief Society General Presidency—Adviser to the Church magazines (Ensign, Friend, Liahona, New Era)
 * Brian K. Ashton, Second Counselor, Sunday School General Presidency—Adviser to the Church magazines (Ensign, Friend, Liahona, New Era)
 * Stephen W. Owen, Young Men General President—Church Board of Education & Boards of Trustees
 * Douglas D. Holmes, First Counselor, Young Men General Presidency—Adviser to the Church magazines (Ensign, Friend, Liahona, New Era)
 * Bonnie L. Oscarson, Young Women General President—Church Board of Education & Boards of Trustees; Member, Executive Committee of the Boards; Member, Missionary Executive Council
 * Carol F. McConkie, First Counselor, Young Women General Presidency— Assistant Editor of the Church magazines (Ensign, Friend, Liahona, New Era)

For any who are curious, apparently when the decision was made by the 15 apostles to have the members of the Presidency of the Seventy supervise the areas in the US and Canada, rather than having a full three-member presidency, it seems that the Church instead assigned different General Authority Seventies to serve as area assistants, meaning they are not directly involved in a leadership role, when the members of the Boundary and Leadership Change Committee recommend to the apostles that certain stakes be split or when it is time for stake presidencies to be reorganized, any of the General Authority Seventies who are assigned to be area assistants in that region could be called upon to effect those changes. As I said above, I feel we could easily add sources for any or all of these assignments that we may want to include. That's enough from me. What do you all think of this? Is it worth mentioning any of these assignments in this article? If so, how should it be done? Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 04:30, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
 * While I am appreciative of the work that has been done by Jgstokes to find and list the information shown above. I don't think I would be in favor of trying to include most of the information in the article.  Among other things, I feel it could clutter up the article more, that it would be hard to maintain/keep current, and that it often would rely too much on the primary source of LDS.org, not only as a single source, but be reliant upon having those pages maintained in a regular and timely manner.  On another note, relative to the final paragraph above, yes, over time there has been others assigned to assist the Presidency of the Seventy in the church's domestic areas.  However, there is generally no direct correlation when boundaries change or stake presidencies are reorganized to have those assisting be specifically assigned to a given stake conference. ChristensenMJ (talk) 17:00, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Hello, ChristensenMJ! Hope you are well. I'd like to thank you for weighing in on this issue. I knew I could count on your honest assessment of the proposal, and I am grateful you have given that. In response to your concerns, I would like to make the following points:
 * 1. In terms of cluttering up the article more, I don't see that as too much of a concern. I added a couple of extra sections to the listing for the Presiding Bishopric, primarily in view of Bishop Causse's assignment to the Board of Education, and the additions there haven't seemed to clutter up the page. For the apostles, it would just require adding another section for the area assignments. For the GA Seventies (including those in the Presidency), it would just involve adding a separate column for the assignments not related to service in an area.
 * 2. In terms of maintaining this information and keeping it up to date, that shouldn't be a concern either. If I didn't make it clear enough, what I am asking is for the chance to make these changes myself, much like I have taken responsibility for inputting the changes in area leadership every year. I would be the one making sure to check the biographies and Church News regularly for updates on these things, and the only way I would ever ask for anyone else's help or assistance is if there is something in the setup of such changes that I cannot work around. Anything else would be my responsibility alone that I would take on willingly to maintain this. And that would merely be an extension of the research I do on such matters already in my blogging efforts.
 * 3. As far as the area assistants in the North America areas, I recognize fully that an assignment to preside at any given stake conference is not always equivalent to having an assignment as an area assistant. In that regard, I would be fine to only include the information for which I can find a source. As for the argument that lds.org is a primary source for this information, it may be true that the General Authority biographies was one of the main sources I used. But a lot of that information that I did not find on the Church website came instead from other sources (Deseret/Church news, periodicals in world areas that cover LDS news and mentions such information).
 * In short, the onus would be on me to make sure this information is kept accurate, and that this page stays current. I would not be offering to do so if I did not feel I could handle it. And in the meantime, if there is anything that anyone has a problem with or wants to discuss, that discussion can happen until a consensus decision is made. Again, as I said, I do this kind of research all the time to keep information i share on my blog relevant. I would be happy to continue to do so, if given the chance. And I am sure I could do it in such a way that it would not clutter up the page too much. Of course, if I am the only one wanting this information on this page, I will be happy to consider this matter closed. But if I am given the chance to try my hand at making this work, I would do my best to ensure that it is being done in accordance with Wikipedia policies. Does that help ease your concerns at all? Thanks again. --Jgstokes (talk) 23:29, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

The dates listed on this page
Hello again, everyone! For those newer editors of this page, I thought it would be helpful to review the reasons for the dates listed on this page. For the apostles (currently numbering 13) the date listed refers to the date on which they were ordained to the apostleship, which is generally several days after they are sustained, and about a week after they were called, in most cases. For any other Church leaders, the dates listed are those on which they were sustained, since it is unknown (in most cases) when they were called or subsequently ordained. Hopefully this clarifies why the dates are listed the way they have been. Specifically, there appeared to be some confusion on the part of someone recently who input April 6, 1984 as the dates for President Nelson and Elder Oaks. That may have been the date on which they were sustained, but as verified by this link, because Dallin H. Oaks was serving as a justice on the Utah Supreme Court at the time he was called, he was unable to attend the conference at which he was sustained to the apostleship, and those judicial obligations were only wrapped up more than a month later, at which point he was ordained on May 7, 1984, almost a full month after Nelson's ordination. Hope that has cleared up any confusion any of you have on this issue. I suppose that references should be added including the dates on which Nelson assumed leadership of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and that for Henry B. Eyring and Dieter F. Uchtdorf, mention should be made of their tenures in the First Presidency, and I will take care of adding that information in the next few minutes. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 21:46, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Current state of senior church leadership
With the recent death of LDS Church president Thomas S. Monson, many good faith editors have been working to try and identify the current situation (the Quorum of the Twelve as the governing body), the presumptive next steps to be taken following services for Monson (the reconstituting of the First Presidency, with ChristensenMJ (talk) 00:23, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Currently there are three vacancies in the First Presidency and no vacancies in the quorum of the 12. While apostles may fill the vacancies as counselors, they need not be apostles as Mr. Christensen has admitted, and therefore there need not be 15 apostles when each of the presiding bodies are fully constituted. On the other hand, more than two apostles can serve as counselors, as was the case when Gordon B. Hinckley was called as a third counselor, thus making 16 apostles, not 15, but still only 12 members of the quorum of the 12. If President Tanner had survived President Kimball, and President Benson had decided to name only two counselors, as he did, the other apostle counselor would have remained a member of the 12, just as President Romney did when Benson chose Hinkley and Monson, and no new apostle would have been named to replace Benson, because the quorum had 12 apostles. If President Nelson chose two or more new non-apostles as counselors to fill the first presidency, such as Reuben J. Clark, he would not choose two or more others to be apostles to raise the number of apostles to 15 or 16, etc. Just because there are currently vacancies in the first presidency is not the same as saying there are vacancies in the quorum of the 12. I therefore propose the following change:

Delete any reference to a requirement of 15 apostles and indicate that a vacancy in the quorum of the 12 may occur once President Nelson is elevated to president of the first presidency, or fills the first presidency with apostles. The current edits are my attempt at a compromise with Mr. Christensen.

24.234.130.51 (talk) 01:55, 9 January 2018 (UTC)Chris Davis


 * Chris, you raise interesting points, and they are well taken. But it has been almost 40 years since a non-apostolic counselor served a Church President, that individual being Alvin R. Dyer, who served under David O. McKay. The pattern since then has uniformly been to have two apostles appointed as counselors (except during President Kimball's presidency, where the age and health of himself and his counselors necessitated the 1981 appointment of President Hinckley. Since Kimball's death, it has been the practice of the Church (but certainly not a set rule that will never be broken) to have two counselors appointed from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. As to your point, when the First Presidency has been fully constituted, there have been 15 apostles, three in the Presidency, and the final 12 in the Quorum proper. Unless he is inspired to do otherwise (and the last 40 years seem to indicate that will not happen), President Nelson will pick two members of the Quorum to be his counselors, and the remaining 10 apostles will mean there will be two vacancies for him to fill, which will, barring anything unexpected, happen during the Solemn Assembly Sustaining of Church Officers. I have no problem with the wording introduced by ChristensenMJ, because we do have a 40 year precedent that indicates what is likely to happen. You can feel free to do more research on this page, which has involved extensive discussion on this matter, including the research I dug up to support the way things were worded on the page of the accompanying article. In the meantime, since it does not seem that anyone has spoken in support of the objections you raised above, the Wikipedia consensus policy says that it should be left as is until someone does. Please do not allow this to devolve into an edit war, as that could lead to your editing privileges here being suspended or revoked. Hope this information is helpful to you. Feel free to message me on my talk page if you need any further assistance understanding the policies involved. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 05:52, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

I have a question of my own on this matter. While I applaud the good faith efforts of ChristensenMJ to work towards concise wording on content I recently added, I am wondering why the reference to Nelson's status as acting Church President that I attempted to add has been reworded. The idea of the senior apostle as the Acting Church President until he is officially announced as such is far from new. According to the following quote from Harold B. Lee, “Immediately following the death of a President, the next ranking body, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, becomes the presiding authority, with the President of the Twelve automatically becoming the acting President of the Church until a President of the Church is officially ordained and sustained in his office." That quote was taken from one of his addresses in the April 1970 General Conference, which can be verified with a quick search. So I have no problem with my previous assertion that Nelson became the acting Church president at the time President Monson passed away. I will not revert that in this article until the consensus allows it, but I wanted to post this statement as my rationale behind it. Thanks. --Jgstokes (talk) 00:40, 15 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I wanted to note here that, in the absence of any objections to the contrary, I have included an extra reference for Nelson in which I cited the source and stated that Nelson was essentially filling the role of Acting Church President. If there are any objections to how that has been done, please let me know. --Jgstokes (talk) 05:33, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Vacacies in Quorum of the 12
There is an apparent disagreement about whether there is currently any vacancies in the quorum of the 12. Vacancies only occur when there are less than 12. While there may be more than 12 as is currently the case with 13, there is no requirement that there be more than 12 in the quorum. As far as I am aware, there is no instance when the LDS church added a 13th apostle to the quorum when there were 12 members designated in the quorum. As an example, while Brigham Young's son was ordained an apostle, he was not part of the quorum of the twelve apostles because there were already 12 members. Therefore, even though he was ordained as an apostle before others in the quorum, he was not senior to those quorum members when deciding who would be the next president of the quorum because he was not part of the quorum and was not made part of the quorum until he filled a vacancy in the quorum. Right now there are 13 members of the quorum of the 12, because the two apostle counselors returned to the quorum when the first presidency was dissolved. Vacancies will not occur until President Nelson is made LDS President. Additional vacancies will only arise if he appoints counselors from the quorum of the 12. If someone could give an example of any instance where a person was made a member of the quorum of the 12 (as opposed to return to the quorum) when there were already 12 members, I would be interested to here about it. Without such an example, blanket phrases that there are always 15 apostles or that there are vacancies should be deleted. Thanks for your input.

24.234.130.51 (talk) 01:25, 9 January 2018 (UTC)Chris Davis
 * 1st Pres'cy members returning to the Twelve may well cause there to be a two-tier Quorum. Eg: Brigham's son John Willard Young. Formerly a Counsellor to B.Y., upon B.Y.'s death and the start of a couple-of-years long interregnum with John Taylor as acting LDS Church President, John Willard Young actually was positioned in this supplementary tier.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 05:57, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
 * That's not technically true. If you consult the official Church sources, following the death of Brigham Young, John Willard Young and Daniel H. Wells, who were not kept on as Quorum members following John Taylor's ascension to the Presidency, were recognized and sustained during the apostolic interregnum between the presidencies of Brigham Young and John Taylor as "Counselors to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles". This is because they were never sustained as full members of the Quorum, though John's brother Brigham Young Jr. had been. There has never been a so-called "second tier" in the apostleship. During periods of time when there was no organized First Presidency, at least during the interregnums of the first four Church Presidents, any excess apostles once the death of the Church President dissolved the First Presidency were dropped from the Quorum, and only some were readmitted following the ordination of the next Church President. Among the instructions given to Lorenzo Snow by Wilford Woodruff was that all living apostles, even if that caused the Quorum membership to be above 12, participated in the reconstitution process for the First Presidency. It's all in the records. Just wanted to clarify these points, There never has been a so-called "second tier"; any apostles not numbered among the Quorum served as "Counselors to the Quorum of the Twelve" during interregnum periods. Hope this helps. --Jgstokes (talk) 06:34, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I hope I didn't sound like a know-it-all in my comment above. I have been a lifelong avid student of Church history, particularly of facts relating to succession in the presidency. The details I outlined above can be verified here on the Wikipedia pages for the two involved as well as this page, where references have been documented even further on this subject, from the Church's website, and from the green-covered manual "Church History in the Fulness of Times", just to name a few. Hope this clarification is helpful. --Jgstokes (talk) 06:49, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
 * No worries. Nonetheless per my reading of ur comments above, u start with a denial of a premise then set about to directly contradict it. (Namely u've asserted there to be but a lone body of apostles with no lesser apostles ancillary to them, then go ahead and proceed to explain that at one time there have been secondary apostles who were installed as counsellors to the main body.)--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 08:49, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
 * On rereading ur argument, I see ur saying that from Woodruff->Snow on there have been no "secondary apostles". Of course, from Woodruff->Snow on there have been no continuing interregnum, either. Maybe for practical purposes any "secondary apostles" status would only come into play during an extended interregnum(?). With any unanimous decision among even an enlarged Quorum to reconstitute the 1st Pres'cy, why worry about separating out from among the Twelve proper whoever might most appropriately be considered of ancillary status, due junior tenures?--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 09:05, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
 * WP: Alvin R. Dyer was "ordained as an apostle on October 5, 1967, (but was not added as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles) and subsequently was set apart as a counselor in the First Presidency to church president David O. McKay. After McKay's death in 1970, Dyer was returned to a position as an Assistant to the Twelve Apostles, and later to the First Quorum of the Seventy when it was reconstituted in 1976." Thus were Prof. Christiansen or else Mitt Romney to be selected as apostles to serve in the 1st Pres'cy Tues., they could possibly end up eventually within a secondary tier, as had Dyer. There'd be guarantee.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 09:43, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

If you give me a chance to, I will try to answer your questions. I have tried to do so several times, all resulting in finding my attempts to do so conflict with your additional questions inserted in the interim. First, let me say that there never has been and never will be a "second tier" Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. What you would call a "second tier" are men who were ordained apostles but who were not also set apart as members of the Quorum of the Twelve. This applies to John Willard Young and Daniel H. Wells, who served alongside Brigham Young. Since they were not also set apart as members of the Quorum of the Twelve, when Brigham Young died, they could not rejoin that Quorum, and though they retained the apostleship, they never served in the Quorum proper, but were instead appointed "counselors to the Quorum of the Twelve" while John Taylor led the Church as President of the Quorum of the Twelve. Alvin R. Dyer, meanwhile, was serving as an Assistant to the Twelve (a position now defunct in the Church) and was called as a counselor to David O. McKay, and as his counselor, was ordained an apostle. But because he was not also set apart as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, when McKay died, Dyer, who was not retained as a counselor to Joseph Fielding Smith, returned to his prior position as an Assistant to the Twelve. The other side of this issue, as already observed, is the fact that, until Woodruff instructed Snow on the new procedure, at times when an interregnum lasted several years, the Quorum of the Twelve could not have more than 12 in that Quorum, which led to any junior apostles being dropped. A classic example of that kind of thing is Amasa M. Lyman, who served as a counselor to Joseph Smith until he was martyred in Carthage Jail. When Orson Hyde temporarily lost his apostleship, Lyman was readmitted to the Quorum. But after Hyde made amends and was restored to his prior place, Lyman was dropped again until the next vacancy in the Quorum arose. All of this is highlighted in the sources I gave you to look at, but I hope this explanation is satisfactory. The page showing the chronology of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles goes into more detail on all of this. It wasn't until Woodruff instructed Snow to do so that the tradition of only having a few days instead of several months or years between the death of one Church president and the ordination of another was observed, at which time, Woodruff also instructed Snow that all ordained apostles who had served at any time in the Quorum of the Twelve were to participate in future reorganizations. Does that explain things better? — Preceding unsigned comment added by jgstokes (talk • contribs)
 * The original poster's argument is that [despite whatever sourcing to the contrary] there is nothing so particularly special about the number 15 re the Q of 12. A nuance I suggest? Fifteen may be what's become pretty much normal No. of Q Apostles under fairly routine, typical, or general circumstances, sure. But, under even fairly nonextraordinary circumstances--eg, a church Pres.'s pulling 4 or 5 apostles out of the Twelve into the 1st Pres.'cy of him + four or more Counselors--there can end up being a Q., within the current era of post- Snow's succession, temporarily with 15 or more apostolic members. Likewise, should some Pres. draw a Councilor or two from outside the Twelve, such arrangement, upon his death, would result in there being only as few as 13, and maybe only 12, Apostles within the Twelve. If the No. 15 is somewhat customary, it is by no means required nor surely necessary; thus, no vacancy exists at any moment when there should be 1st least twelve members in the Quorum.--Hodgdon&#39;s secret garden (talk) 15:23, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Of course there have been times when the number of ordained apostles that were members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles at one point or another but were in the First Presidency resulted in the Church having more than 15 total men in the apostleship. At times when there are extra members of the First Presidency or during times of an apostolic interregnum, that has been a standard procedure. Case in point: When Gordon B. Hinckley served in the First Presidency and Neal A. Maxwell was called to fill the vacancy in the Quorum of the Twelve. In that instance, there were 16 apostles, and if N. Eldon Tanner had still been alive at the time Spencer W. Kimball died, that would have resulted in 15 members of the Quorum participating in the reorganization, and depending on the outcome of that reorganization, there may not have been any vacancies. My point was more to illustrate what has been the standard case, wherein there were 15 apostles (3 in First Presidency and 12 members in the Quorum), and the death of the Church president resulted in 14 apostles who were participating in the reorganization. If the First Presidency has been reorganized, which I think is safe to assume, then the fact that Russell M. Nelson has taken the Church presidency leaves one spot open in the Quorum of the Twelve, and the resulting reorganization of the First Presidency would result in the Quorum membership (currently 13) going down to 10, which would leave two vacancies. So if anything, the individual starting this thread hasn't got a leg to stand on. It has been roughly 119.37 years since the death of the last LDS Church president (Wilford Woodruff) that came to the Church presidency after leading the Church for an extended period as President of the Quorum of the Twelve. Some may try to argue against that precedent holding true this time, but I doubt President Nelson would have called the press conference to announce the continuation of the interregnum in this case. That could just as easily be done with a simple news release on the Church website, and no hassle for him. Three days from now, it will have been exactly 48 years since the passing of David O. McKay, which marked the conclusion of the last time a non-member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles served as a counselor to a Church president. President Nelson could have his choice of any man in the Church; that has always been the case. But with a precedent of 40 years in which Church presidents have selected their counselors from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, it seems highly unlikely (though not entirely impossible) that one or both of Nelson's counselors will not be drawn from among the current members of the Quorum. feel free to rub it in my face tomorrow if it turns out I am wrong. My point is that, with that precedent in mind, it is almost certain (but not guaranteed) that the precedent will remain true. Nothing is official until officially announced, but I would like to see this argument continue after the press conference tomorrow, if I happen to be wrong. I wouldn't bet on the odds of that, but that's not my choice to make. --Jgstokes (talk) 06:15, 16 January 2018 (UTC)